A Rivendell 29+ Camping bike.

[Clayton]

I have a serious drool going over the Surly ECR 29+ off road camping bike. Now, if Rivendell made such a bike, I would absolutely have to sell everything I own and get one. Hint Hint Grant?

[Anne Paulson]

Since I started looking into a bike with wiiiide tires for
bikepacking, I've thought a 29+ would make sense for Rivendell. 29+
such a Rivvy sort of thing.

I'm going to be using my Krampus 29+ for camping. I'm already planning
the first trip. Within a week of its arrival (whenever that is)
Midnight Bike and I will hop on the train to SF for an S24O at Marin
Headlands.

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-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Deacon Patrick]

I've been tempted, and haven't ridden a 29er+, but now that I have 2.25" tires on my Hunqapillar I really can't justify a second bike to have 29er+. Here's my experience:

-- With 50mm Duremes I've ridden 200 miles of the Great Divide Mountain Bike trail, covering 40-70 miles a day, and far more technical and rocky single track including multiple sections of the Colorado Trail. My main issues were: traction on rougher/looser dirt/trails, snow, and sand. In my experience so far wight he 2.25" Smart Sams, they address the rougher/looser dirt/trails amazingly well as well as snow and sand much better.

-- My personal conclusion is that if I was to tour trails (like the Kokopelli) that were mostly sand and/or mud, a 29er plus would be the way to go.

-- If I wanted to ride snow as much as possible, a Moonlander would be the way to go

So I understand Grant's statements that if you need more than 2.25" tires, go Surly. I can easily see it as a niche he's not interested in getting into. That said, if there were a Hunqapiller 29er+ when I gone mine, I'd have gone that route knowing what I know now.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Eric Daume]

Sometimes close enough is good enough. What could you do on the hypothetical Riv that you couldn't do on the ECR?

Eric "taking my new Krampus out for its first ride in about an hour" Daume
Dublin, OH

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:09 AM, Clayton <treef...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have a serious drool going over the Surly ECR 29+ off road camping bike. Now, if Rivendell made such a bike, I would absolutely have to sell everything I own and get one. Hint Hint Grant?

--

[Eric Platt]

Maybe putting on narrower tires.  The ECR is designed for 3" wide tires and still have a low-ish bottom bracket.  At least one early review stated putting 2.4" tires made the bottom bracket too low for some off-road riding.  

Was really tempted on the ECR.  Went for an Ogre.  Less expensive and will be able to run tires from about 47mm to 2.3/2.4" without a problem.  Okay, and I really wanted that green color.

FWIW, the rumor around here is Surly looks at the ECR as what they would have done with the Fargo adventure bike.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Deacon Patrick]

With respect, that makes as much sense as saying "Surly makes the Long Haul Trucker. That's close enough so there is no need for the Atlantis because you can do everything on the LHT you can do on the Atlantis." Surly HAS to be good enough because there isn't a Riv. 29er+. Given the choice, I'd certainly take the Riv. I do love the G.O. as the name for it (as in go anywhere, and Gimli Oakenshield -- making the wild leap that is his last name). Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Leslie]

On Sunday, February 16, 2014 8:38:54 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

With respect, that makes as much sense as saying "Surly makes the Long Haul Trucker. That's close enough so there is no need for the Atlantis because you can do everything on the LHT you can do on the Atlantis." Surly HAS to be good enough because there isn't a Riv. 29er+. Given the choice, I'd certainly take the Riv. I do love the G.O. as the name for it (as in go anywhere, and Gimli Oakenshield -- making the wild leap that is his last name). Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

No!  He wasn't an Oakenshield, that was more of a title given to Thorin, not a family name.   lol....    

Gimli, son of Gloin, son of Groin...  (except the o's need marks on the tops of them...)



I kinda am in the camp...  the Hunq can take an awfully big tire, really... and if you maxed out the Hunq frame, and still need bigger, you should probably be on a fatbike instead...

Don't get me wrong, I can see how the ECR fits that 'bigger than a 29 but not a fatbike' range, I get that....
But, if you are thinking ECR but wanting to go smaller, sounds like a 29'er with clearance would work, aka, the Hunqapillar... 

I would think it interesting to see a RBW fat-bike.   However, I've been told "no more bikes", so if I ever do a fatbike, it would have to be on the cheap.....

FWIW....

[Eric Daume]

BB drop on the ECR is 80mm, same as my old first gen Fargo. That was low, but singletrack riding was still possible and fun--just time your pedal rotations in the worst spots.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I don't want to be negative, but... There are a number of leaps for Riv to make a 29+ bike while staying true to Riv's philosophy on aesthetics and commitment to certain types of designs. First, the bike would need to have disc brakes to use existing wide 622 rims, or a whole new 622x50ish rim that is compatible with cantilevers (I don't think a fat rim-brake rim is likely because most existing linear-pull brakes will not clear the tire, and even with cantis, you'd be constrained to a limited range of straddle cable angles). Second, I haven't worked out the engineering, but that's an awfully big wheel with lots of added leverage and stresses on various parts of the frame/fork. I feel that a 1" steerer with quill isn't sufficiently stiff for the kind of hijinks a person might want to try with such big tires (you will want to hit stuff, trust me). Third, there are no lugs for such a beast. The chainstay yoke on the Krampus and ECR is a proprietary casting that Surly created specifically for this kind of frame. Some other 29+ bikes have workarounds, but they aren't too elegant (check out the Gnarvester chainstay junction). Trying to accomplish this with a lugged BB shell would require some new molds, which are pretty costly for a bike that's probably destined to have limited appeal. Fourth, the fat tires limit drivetrain options. Surly makes the excellent OD (offset double) crank (usually 36/22 gearing) for this, but that crank likely won't be appealing to a lot of Riv traditionalists. You could do a square taper triple crank with and extra long BB spindle, and just use the inner and middle chainring position, I suppose. But then you'd have to find a front derailleur that will work with the oddball combination while still looking "right" on a Riv.

That said, I agree wholeheartedly that the 29+ concept is really cool. I put together an ECR, but decided not to subject it to winter just yet. Once the snow and ice and salt are mostly gone, I expect to have many fun adventures on it.

[Hudson Doerge]

Also, Hunq's with 622 wheels have the same 80mm bb drop so difference there re problems running smaller tires on the ECR vs. the Hunq.

[Mike Schiller]

It seems that the fatter tire +1 velolution continues to move forward. The ECR/Krampus bikes are a great design but have a few issues, as Jim mentioned.  One big issue for me are the rear dropouts which are designed  as a compromise between IGH and derailleur hubs.  Singular Cycles also has a 29+ bikes in the works but with an EBB and vertical dropouts. Surly also has another tire in the works called the Dirt Wizard at 2.75"with bigger knobs.

The tougher decision for me is between a 29+ bike and the smaller rimmed fat bikes.  In my mind my 2.3" tired 29er is sufficient for most serious off road camping. Where the fatter tires help are sandy rides like in the California desert. 

Nevertheless, I'd love to see a Riv that fits these big tires.

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

The Pacer/LHT/Cross-check frames from Surly are functionally similar to several Riv models, past and present. Beyond that, the Surly and Riv offerings don't have much overlap. Riv has its niche, which has some pretty clear boundaries. Meanwhile, Surly has spent most of its history giving us tough, no-frills classic designs (like Rivendell minus the fanciness), OR types of bikes that were entirely new to most of us at the time (e.g. 1x1, Karate Monkey, Big Dummy, Pugsley/Moonlander, Krampus/ECR).

Both companies have inspired competitors and shameless copycats to come out of the woodwork, so I don't think we need more of that. We'll be better off if both companies do what they do best without trying to duplicate each other. I dare say that Riv would do a pretty mediocre job trying to be "the lugged steel version of Surly", and we really don't need Surly to focus on being the "low-budget Rivendell alternative".

If a person wants an ECR, why not buy an ECR and reward the creativity and boldness of Surly in inventing such a thing?

[Clayton]

Well, this is a RIVENDELL group.... What could I do with a Riv 29+ that I couldn't do with an ECR? Drool on it.....Surly is nice, but doesn't make me drool or lust like a Riv. (Ironic juxtaposition, surly is nice)...

[Mike]

On Saturday, February 15, 2014 9:09:21 PM UTC-8, Clayton wrote:

I have a serious drool going over the Surly ECR 29+ off road camping bike. Now, if Rivendell made such a bike, I would absolutely have to sell everything I own and get one. Hint Hint Grant?

 

Perfect timing. I've had a serious itch to get back to mountain biking now that I have a car and access to trails. Just this morning I was looking at the Surly Ogre/Krampus/Pugsley. It would be tough to decide. On the one hand an Ogre could do double duty as a commuter but I just can't help but desire the fatness of a Krampus or Pugs which also accepts 29+. And then there's the ECR... If I really thought I'd put that to good use, I would likely just go that route.

 

Things appear to be falling into place for a 5 day tour this July and if I have a mountain bike it'll definitely be of the trail/dirt road variety. Perhaps the OR Outback (http://velodirt.com/).

 

Former RBW employee Daniel was recently in Chile touring on a Pugsley:

http://www.whileoutriding.com/bike-talk/where-were-going-we-dont-need-roads

 

--mike

[Mike]

Agreed.

[Anne Paulson]

The bottom bracket issue is one reason I got the Krampus instead of
the ECR. The Krampus has a much higher bottom bracket, so I can run
2.15" with no fear.

[Patrick Moore]

II think my Fargo will take 70s/2.75s, if those had existence; it will take 65s with fenders and room. A dimple or two in the chainstays, the fork a wee bit wider and I daresay it would take 3"/76s -- in fact, they might just barely fit as is. And the Q of the XD2/X2D/whatever with a 113 mm bb leaves a good cm+ on each side (one could squeeze the cranks onto a 108, I think) for a Q of ~160 mm.

The point is not the Fargo but the insight it gives into the Hunquapillar: a few tweaks, methinks, could spread it enough to take 3's, and to make this into a really useful bike. (Juuust kidding.) Can you H owners verify -- Deacon? 

And from my experience, which is sand on 60s-65s, 3" would be pretty darn wide enough for most mortal use.

Though I still anticipate with anticipation the visit of Mojo with his Pugsley ....

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[Anne Paulson]

The ECR and the Krampus are the kinds of bikes that a lot of Rivendell
riders would like. And so that made me think that Rivendell might want
to go in that direction. But I'll accept Jim Thill's word that from a
design point of view, it would be difficult for Rivendell to make a
29+ bike that both made sense and fit the Rivendell esthetic. For one
thing, I can't see a 29+ with rim brakes, and Rivendell hasn't made
any bikes with disc brakes.

[Deacon Patrick]

I see a question to me there, Patrick, but the details are lost on me and even if I understood them I doubt I'd have a clue as it sounds like technical frame design well beyond my ken. But feel free to get me a custom Rivendel G.O. and I'll be happy to ride it. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Anne Paulson]

What about the chain clearing the tire? The Krampus full bike is
spec'ed as 1x10 because with a front derailleur there are issues about
the chain hitting the tire.

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 11:48 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> II think my Fargo will take 70s/2.75s, if those had existence; it will take
> 65s with fenders and room. A dimple or two in the chainstays, the fork a wee
> bit wider and I daresay it would take 3"/76s -- in fact, they might just
> barely fit as is. And the Q of the XD2/X2D/whatever with a 113 mm bb leaves
> a good cm+ on each side (one could squeeze the cranks onto a 108, I think)
> for a Q of ~160 mm.

[Patrick Moore]

Good point -- hadn't considered that. Must look at the clearance between granny and tire on the Fargo.

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[Anne Paulson]

When I was considering what to buy, I thought about buying a custom
29+ bike. I didn't, because I got the strong impression that custom
builders don't, quite, know all the issues to consider when designing
a 29+ bike yet, whereas Surly has developed a working model.

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good point -- hadn't considered that. Must look at the clearance between
> granny and tire on the Fargo.
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Anne Paulson <anne.p...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> What about the chain clearing the tire? The Krampus full bike is
>> spec'ed as 1x10 because with a front derailleur there are issues about
>> the chain hitting the tire.

[Mike]

Surly makes the OD Crank which addresses this issue. It's the crank that the ECR, Pugs OP and Moonlander are spec'd with.

 

And yeah, I can't see anyone making a rim brake 29+ although when RBW had a Pugsley it was set-up with cantis. The newer Pugs only have disc tabs. If I'm not mistaken, in that link I previously posted about Daniel touring Chile on a Pugs, his partner is riding the old RBW Pugs.

 

--mike

[Anne Paulson]

One thing I'm looking forward to with my Krampus is not replacing
rims. I just had to replace the rear rim on my purple Atlantis yet
again.

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I understand the drool factor. I don't drool for Rivs like I used to, but I get it. I also understand that Surly doesn't go to great lengths to add visual pizzazz to their frames. Their beauty is in brilliant ideas and engineering...things they don't even market, like the Disc Trucker rear dropout, which is the smartest vertical dropout ever.

Anyway, here's a 29+ that might be more drool-inducing from the Rivish standpoint.
http://www.jonesbikes.com/?option=com_wordpress&lang=en&p=2828&Itemid=58

[Mike Schiller]

The lower BB on the ECR helps with the tire/chain clearance making it easier to run a double chain-ring setup.

I'm still kinda surprised at the fear and superstition about the ECR BB drop. It's the same drop as a 700c Atlantis and Long Haul Trucker. People ride those with 40mm tires off road without too much of an issue.  

If you do a lot of rock crawling then the higher BB has an advantage, but for dirt trails and roads the ECR seems to be the better design.  

~mike

[Deacon Patrick]

There are a number of worn down areas on trails with grasses on either side and a narrow track in a rut. I often had uphill peddling difficulty with my Hunqapillar at 5mm tires. We'll see how much difference 2.25" tires makes. The scenario where BB height is an issue is more common on single track, but you are right, it is a non-issue on mild single track and dirt or paved roads.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Shaun Meehan]

I don't know. I've seen Thill's ECR up-close and in person and it's one of the most "drool worthy" bikes I can remember seeing in a long time!

Shaun Meehan

[Tony DeFilippo]

Jim, I have to agree that the long tail-mixte-29er+-funky fork bike is drool worthy!

While not a 29+ platform this prototype by Ahearne is pretty sweet looking:

http://www.ahearnecycles.com/blog/2011/1/20/off-road-touring-mixte.html
(Kind of like if a Betty for mixed up with a Bombadil!)

Tony

[hobie]

Just spoke to Jeff about THE LONE RANGER. He wouldn't tell me if it's happening. I think it will. I own one of his Diamond frames w. unicrown fork. Possibly the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden. It's also a super fast road bike, great do it all frameset. Use it with a Knard up front for mtn. biking. Crawls over a lot of stuff. I really like BIG TIRES!!!! The Schwalbe Super Motos are stellar! Super bike! The Motos just power down the road.  Regarding the ECR's low BB, you could go to a shorter crank set, say 165mm XT.

[Philip Williamson]

That's good to hear about the 'budget' Jones frameset and the Schwalbe Super Motos. I'd love to see pictures of your bike. It sounds like a beautiful stealth speedster. 

I have a lot of fun riding with the lunchtime crowd on bikes that look like they're hugely disadvantaged, but actually are secretly speedy, like the Quickbeam and the Gravel Roadster (60mm Big Apples). "Heavy" frames, fat tires, lack of gears, sometimes. 

Do you know if the Super Moto tires are tubeless-able? My Big Apples wouldn't seat (way too floppy), but the fat Marathon Supremes mounted up easily. The Supremes just aren't nearly as fun a tire. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com 

[jimmy johnsen]

You can find a photo of my Jones about 2/3 down on this page. It's set up for mtn. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cycle-Monkey/304605066248161

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