Bar end vs. down tube shifting... What's your experience...

[lungimsam]

If I love friction bar end shifting, will I find friction DT shifting just as easy and enjoyable?

Never done it before, and seems like the reach may make it more difficult and looks like there's a big potential for knees banging into forearms while pedalling and reaching down to shift at same time.

What's your experience been with DT shifting?

[dougP]

Probably like many on this list, I grew up with DT shifting.  Once I tried bar ends, I liked them a lot better.  After years with bar ends, I tried DTs for a few months on my Atlantis.  Not a difficult switch but went back to bar ends.  On the issue of interference points, I would occasionally touch the front tire with DTs, and they are quite difficult off-road.  OTH, with bar ends I sometimes bump them at low speed when turning sharply.  Overall I prefer having the shifters on the bar, close at hand.  Currently my Atlantis is set-up with upright bars and thumb shifters and I like this a lot.

dougP

[Glen]

As a tall guy I never liked shifters on the down tube, way too far to reach. It took brifters to introduce me to bar ends, now i'm sold

[Joe Bernard]

In my opinion DT shifters are for people who really like the look and simplicity, then adapt to the shifting. I happen to be one of those look/simplicity appreciators, but my attempt to get used to it a couple years ago was a no-go. Friction shifting at the bar-ends is ridiculously easy, and the extra work needed to reach down for on-the-tubers just wasn't worth the trouble for me.

On Tuesday, December 16, 2014 9:09:21 PM UTC-8, lungimsam wrote:

[Lynne Fitz]

I prefer bar end shifting.  Indexed or friction.  I've got one of each.  Also a bike with down-tube friction shifters.  Once I remembered how to do it, everything worked fine.  But I really prefer bar end shifting.

On Tuesday, December 16, 2014 9:09:21 PM UTC-8, lungimsam wrote:

[ascpgh]

I'm with you Glen. When DT shifters were it, I was enjoying mountain biking and my shifters right there on the bar, by the brake levers. I have longer legs than my torso would dictate to production frame  and my 60 cm road bike always had me feeling a little unsteady; those shifters were so far down there and the old school 42/52 rings with not much range of the five cogs didn't really reward those shifts either. Brifters drew me back and facilitated longer trips not limited by the mental fatigue, until things broke. That was more maddening than the wobbliness of reaching to what felt like my ankles to get another gear. 

Bar ends came to me via my Bridgestone RB-1 and an XO-2. That RB paved the way to my Rambouillet and its bar ends, switched into friction mode ever since. Aesthetes abhor the housing paths if a bar bag is intended. Me, I'll figure it out. I can't imagine greater happiness of the form and function. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

Please allow me to dissent.  I resisted DT shifters like the plague, but three things brought me around to friction DT.  You may or may not agree with my rationale:

1.  Simplicity.  Other than having no shifters at all, DT friction is the simplest approach.
2.  Relatedly, reliability in all respects.  You go from a system with moving cable housing to one in which the geometric relationship of the shifters and the derailers is fixed, a function of the bike frame.  Consequently, there is no way in which movement of the handlebars can have any effect on shifting, ever.
3.  Finally, aesthetics.  For me, and perhaps only me, there is something about DT shifters.  I think it started with this photograph many years ago:  http://sheldonbrown.com/org//brown/pages/20browndampierreclose.htm.  It just seemed somehow perfect.

I've used barcons, and just about everything else, but I like DT shifters. So there.

[Michael Hechmer]

I think it depends on the kind of riding you will be doing.  I used bar ends for the 13 years I commuted into work surrounded by rush hour traffic.  I liked the security of not leaving the handle bars or being far from the brake levers.  For a similar reason I use BEs on the tandem because the stoker doesn't like me to let go of the bars.   But since retiring, I have gradually moved all three of my singles back to DT.  Why?  Now most of my riding is just for joy, and the terrain here in VT is very rolling, which rewards fast double shifts.  Unless I'm on the drops I can't do that with BEs but with DT I can reach down and move the levers in quick succession.  DT also seems to be more aggressive and suffers less from cable stretch.  OTOH BEs feel more relaxed and is the most intuitive, (move the lever up, move the chain up) so my wife prefers it.  DT requires teaching your hand where the lever is, but with a little practice it becomes pretty automatic.

Michael

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/17/2014 12:09 AM, lungimsam wrote:
> If I love friction bar end shifting, will I find friction DT shifting just as easy and enjoyable?

Maybe, maybe not. For me, not.

>
> Never done it before, and seems like the reach may make it more difficult

Exactly. For some people, when they drop their hand it falls on the DT
lever. With my setup, my hand is quite far away from the lever, and I
have to bend down about as much as to reach a water bottle on the downtube.

> and looks like there's a big potential for knees banging into forearms while pedalling and reaching down to shift at same time.

No, I haven't had that at all. Easy to simulate: you know where the
lever is going to be. Practice putting your hand there while riding.

>
> What's your experience been with DT shifting?
>

There are some things that are great: simple cable run, out of the way;
looks good. I have indexed DT levers on my porteur, which I shift
infrequently and the location frees up the bar and lets me use inverse
brake levers. Think of it as similar to a Simple-One only no stick is
required to shift, there's a handy DT lever for the purpose.

I hated it back in the day. Not only was there the awkward reach, you
also had to fiddle around with friction shifting. I almost crashed one
time when I hit a pothole while reaching over to shift -- made worse by
the presence of my then 1 year old daughter on a baby seat at the time.

YMMV. Plenty of people love them.

[Ron Mc]

Agree on the grew up with DT shifting.  Of course have both and both are natural for me.  Current DT is on my go-fast - it's natural for me on that ride, though I do shift less often.  Never had a problem with my long spindly limbs.  I have bar ends on my utility bike with moustache cockpit, ride it in tougher hills, shift a lot and enjoy it.  

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

I use DT shifters in traffic (90% of my riding is commuting) so I don't think that's a factor for me. Of course I do have arms like a gorilla, so reaching the shifters had never been a problem for me.

I probably shift less than I did with BE, Ergo, etc. I do miss my old Command Shifters, but the installation of both varieties was inelegant.

[shawn m.]

My Hunqapillar has barend shifters, and I really like them, except when I knock them against the doorframe getting the bike in and out of the garage. When I built up my Atlantis this fall, I went with downtube shifters mostly because of cost-containment. I like the clean lines, and I like how it mitigates my natural tendency to shift too often. But, that's ALL I like. The reach is just too much for me to feel comfortable with, and bar ends are going on in the spring. I like the look of downtube shifters, and the simplicity. The experience? Not so much.

[Minh]

for me a huge factor is how much you actually shift, i found DT shifters much more livable after i got my single-speed. i find the reach a little far, but in many cases i just don't shift :)  

but i'm one of the people that love the look versus bar-end shifters--especially bar-ends where you exit the tape at the drops, just looks cleaner!

[Matthew J]

Never done it before, and seems like the reach may make it more difficult and looks like there's a big potential for knees banging into forearms while pedalling and reaching down to shift  at same time. 

What's your experience been with DT shifting?

I suppose height and dexterity are an issue but in all my years of DT shifting, I've never had any problem knocking my knees into my arms while shifting.

On the other hand, bar end shifters on my Hilsen did get in the way and also marred the top tube when the fork flipped over while parked at a stand.

The DT shifters on my custom Kellogg are a perfect reach for me.  The shorter distance between the shifters and ders make it easier to set up and maintain - and arguably a bit more efficient shifting, although I never experienced any deficiencies with the bar end function - just location. 

Another advantage to DT shifters is with practice you can execute front and rear chain shifts near simultaneously with one hand.  I suppose you could do that with bar ends, but you better not need a strong grip on the bar while doing so.

[Leslie]

I think the 10-speed I had as a kid, had the shifters on the stem.   But after I switched to a mountain-bike in college, I had grip shifts, and wasn't on another bike for over 15 years.   

When I built up my Ram, I went w/ the bar-ends on Noodles, was fine.  With my Bomba, went with bar-ends on my moustaches, was fine.  

But then when I got the canti-Rom....

My Ram, I have a front rack and a rando box bag on the front, w/ a leading Edelux, fenders;  the Bomba also has fenders, a front basket, lights, both of those bikes are 'kitted out'.   The canti-Rom, I wanted to go for something more simple.

Since it has cantis on it, I went w/ larger tires on it, and as I was reusing my wider Noodles, I left the interrupters on it.   But it's a much more simple bike, just a tool-roll and a bell as the only 'extras' on it.    In keeping it simple, I thought I'd try DT's on it.    

Ya know, I'm now riding it more than the other two.   Still love the other two:  if I was going for a LONG ride, I'd grab the Ram, and if I was going to run errands, or camping, the Bomba is the bike...      But for just a quick jaunt on the greenbelt, it's the Rom that I grab.  

I will say, I don't shift a lot, w/ DT...    I get into gear, and stay in it longer....   but, the gearing's there when needed.....



FWIW....


-L

On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:09:21 AM UTC-5, lungimsam wrote:

[Clayton.sf]

One (to me) huge advantage is the fact that DT are fairly well protected whereas bar end shifters live in a fairly exposed place when it comes to crashing, leaning, falling over. With a little practice both work just fine.

Clayton, SF

[Patrick Moore]

It requires a slightly different technique, given that your hands don't grasp the shifters in the same way. With BES I use my fist and palm to shift, which gives very good control. With DTS it's my forefinger and thumb, or rather the forefinger and the palm directly underneath this finger, and the thumb; and this requires (until you get the habit) a more conscious effort to shift decisively (as opposed to tentatively). But once you get it, it works fine. BES remain easier, in the sense of being easier to shift precisely.

As for reach (I ride frames from 57 to 60) that has never really been a problem for me.

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[Patrick Moore]

Yeah, the one bike (Fargo) with BES has a big wad of bar tape padding on the top tube where the Silver shifters would otherwise contact the paint -- this tape is scarred from many contacts. Such contacts also annoyingly shift the levers which is something I have to anticipate when I first get on and go -- don't want to stand on the pedal and have the chain slam into the wrong gear.

AND I broke a Silver shifter when the bike fell over ...

All that said, the BES are easier to shift precisely, which is good on rough terrain.

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Clayton.sf <clayt...@gmail.com> wrote:

One (to me) huge advantage is the fact that DT are fairly well protected whereas bar end shifters live in a fairly exposed place when it comes to crashing, leaning, falling over. With a little practice both work just fine.

Clayton, SF

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[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

It occurs to me that the kind of handlebar you're using is also a factor.  If you're using drops, DT is probably much more appealing than if you're using a sit-up handlebar of some sort.  I'm a drop-bar user, and so find DT shifters natural.  I expect if I ever shift to uprights, I'll want something closer to my hands--likely a 3-speed trigger arrangement.

[Matthew J]

> I'm a drop-bar user, and so find DT shifters natural.  I expect if I ever shift to uprights, I'll want something closer to my hands--likely a 3-speed trigger arrangement.

Good points.  I had drops on the Hilsen referenced above.  My flat bar multi speed is a 1x6 matched to Paul Thumbies holding a Shimano bar end.

[Mojo]

I will join Andrew here, I love downtube friction shifting. Its simple with very fast derailer response to input. There is very little to go wrong. Even the entire cable is visible in case it starts to fail. Bar ends are great too just not Great. Its not as easy or as convenient as bar ends, by a gnat's ass. Just as bar ends aren't as convenient as brifters. Just how much convenience do we need? Are we men or are we Devo?! What's wrong with having to use a little more finesse?! ...Oh sorry... I feel better now.

All that said, I only have one bike of eight with downtube shifters. Its my LHT tank and sometimes I pull it down just because I feel like playing fretless. 

On Tuesday, December 16, 2014 10:09:21 PM UTC-7, lungimsam wrote:

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Like many of the above replies, I have both set ups. I would say bar ends are better due to always being near at and (and I ride with my hands resting on them when I have Moustache bars). But, downtube shifters are fine on a bike you don't shift a whole bunch, and don't ride aggressively off road. Looks much cleaner which is why I have them on that bike.

On Tuesday, December 16, 2014 9:09:21 PM UTC-8, lungimsam wrote:

[Ron Mc]

Those rubber shift lever covers were made for DT levers, but always seemed pretty pointless.  

However, they're absolutely necessary on bar end shifters to protect the top tube paint.  

[Michael Hechmer]

Although I prefer DTs, I will say that BEs are clearly the most ergonomically designed.  Way more than SIS.  Truth is both system work fine and no one should sweat about it too much one way or the other.

Michael 

[Michael Hechmer]

I would disagree that brifters are more convenient than BEs.  I find pushing with my finger tips quite unnatural.

Michael

[Jim Bronson]

I see lots of drop bar users with bar ends... Just saying.

[Ron Mc]

I also love the subtle feel of pushing the bar end down with palm and everything shifting just like silk

[Ron Mc]

Jim, have to agree with you about the obvious - no offense.  Bar ends and a moustache cockpit are just perfect.  I can see how stem shifters would be best with Albas and absolute sit-straight-up cycling.   I did, however, hunt down Microshift 9-speed barcons for my daughter's first drop-bar bike, because I didn't want her reaching into the wheel to shift, and she's very happy with them.    

[Lester Luallin]

If the bars are high enough that I can spend most of my time in the drops then I like barcons better. I'm usually a hood riding tootler though, so slight advantage to DT, since they're on a solid platform. Also can shift either shifter with either hand.

[Matthew J]

> because I didn't want her reaching into the wheel to shift

What set up would lead to this?

[Ron Mc]

hi Matthew, you calling me out?  I didn't want my 12-year old daughter to deal with downtube shifters.  If you think different I'm happy for you.  

[Lester Luallin]

From the hoods, with Shimano, you don't really use your fingertips. A least I don't. Middle finger is kinda resting against small lever the whole time and I just kinda push it inward to shift.

I do find it a little awkward snagging the little lever with my fingertips from the drops, however.

[Matthew J]

Not calling you out, sincerely did not follow.  

Shifting is personal.  I have no say - nor want any - as to what others do.  

However on most bikes the rider's hand is as close to the wheel at the bottom of drop bars as at a down tube shifter.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/17/2014 01:52 PM, Matthew J wrote:
> > because I didn't want her reaching into the wheel to shift
>
> What set up would lead to this?

The point is, there is no downtube shifter setup that would require
anyone to reach into the wheel. In fact, you aren't anywhere even close
to the wheel. Now perhaps it might seem that way. Does it seem that
you are in danger of reaching into the wheel to retrieve a water bottle?

And I say this as a person who doesn't like, and even back in the day
didn't like downtube shifters.

Fair's fair. It's perfectly fine to say you don't like 'em without
having to point to exaggerated, fancied dangers as a reason for not
liking them. (Same's true WRT people who don't like bar end shifters:
it's OK to not like them just because.)

[George Schick]

I prefer DT shifters, too, and agree with Andrew's 1-2-3 items along with other positive replies on the list.  Like others have experienced, I grew up with DT's and just got used to them.  Bar-con's were the next evolutionary step, but I never cared much for them for some of the reasons listed in this thread along with another reason that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet:  you have to shift the front and rear by using two separate hands.  Plus, if you're used to riding with hands on the brake lever hoods, as I assume most of us are, you still have to reach down to the end of the drops with one hand or the other. With the DT's only one hand is required to do all the shifting - and you only reach down once.  My current road bike setup has an indexed DT on the right side and a friction DT on the left (since the front is only a double plateau).

I have had no experience with brifters, but it seems like the people I've ridden with who have them are always shifting back and forth all the time, which seems superfluous.  As others have said, I more or less learned to stay in one or two gears, appropriate for the wind and terrain, and just stand up when starting from a stop or climbing.  Now, I will say that when doing heavy duty off-road riding on a MTB it is nice to have shifters on the bar, but the one I own does not have bar-cons, but instead a pair of triggers mounted right next to the brake lever that you push to move the gear up or down.  And those do work well.

On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 4:32:28 AM UTC-6, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro wrote:

Please allow me to dissent.  I resisted DT shifters like the plague, but three things brought me around to friction DT.  You may or may not agree with my rationale:

1.  Simplicity.  Other than having no shifters at all, DT friction is the simplest approach.
2.  Relatedly, reliability in all respects.  You go from a system with moving cable housing to one in which the geometric relationship of the shifters and the derailers is fixed, a function of the bike frame.  Consequently, there is no way in which movement of the handlebars can have any effect on shifting, ever.
3.  Finally, aesthetics.  For me, and perhaps only me, there is something about DT shifters.  I think it started with this photograph many years ago:  http://sheldonbrown.com/org//brown/pages/20browndampierreclose.htm.  It just seemed somehow perfect.

I've used barcons, and just about everything else, but I like DT shifters. So there.

On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 5:10:16 AM UTC-5, ascpgh wrote:

I'm with you Glen. When DT shifters were it, I was enjoying mountain biking and my shifters right there on the bar, by the brake levers. I have longer legs than my torso would dictate to production frame  and my 60 cm road bike always had me feeling a little unsteady; those shifters were so far down there and the old school 42/52 rings with not much range of the five cogs didn't really reward those shifts either. Brifters drew me back and facilitated longer trips not limited by the mental fatigue, until things broke. That was more maddening than the wobbliness of reaching to what felt like my ankles to get another gear. 

Bar ends came to me via my Bridgestone RB-1 and an XO-2. That RB paved the way to my Rambouillet and its bar ends, switched into friction mode ever since. Aesthetes abhor the housing paths if a bar bag is intended. Me, I'll figure it out. I can't imagine greater happiness of the form and function. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 1:38:43 AM UTC-5, Glen wrote:

As a tall guy I never liked shifters on the down tube, way too far to reach. It took brifters to introduce me to bar ends, now i'm sold

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/17/2014 02:44 PM, George Schick wrote:

Plus, if you're used to riding with hands on the brake lever hoods, as I assume most of us are, you still have to reach down to the end of the drops with one hand or the other. With the DT's only one hand is required to do all the shifting - and you only reach down once.

Let me take issue with this.  When I say "reach down" to get at a downtube shifter, I mean not only extend the arm and the hand, but also bend at the waist, tipping the head down towards the ground.  It's a reach.  (This varies by frame size, arm length, etc: some people simply drop their hand and it lands right on the shift lever, no body movement involved.  I have a big frame and relatively short arms; for me it is a big reach.)

Unless they have a grotesquely incorrectly sized handlebar and stem, nobody needs to reach that way to get their hand on the end of the handle bar.  Yes you do have to move your hand.  No you do not have to extend your arm or bend at the waist.  Or, if you do, you'd really better change your stem and your handlebars.

[Lester Luallin]

My DT shifters are pretty much right on the front tire.  I've only put fingers in the spokes twice since 1989, though.  :)

[George Schick]

OK, I'll say "uncle" on this one.  I stand 5' 9" and have slightly disproportionately shorter legs vs. slightly longer torso ratio.  And I ride a 54cm frame.  So for me to "reach down" is no big deal, but I realize that it might be a big issue for those of taller heights and more proportionate builds who ride larger frames.  In which case the DT vs. bar-con issue may be more a physiological necessity than one of person preference. 

[Scott Henry]

I think a lot of it comes from what you were riding when you "came of age" in cycling.

Something about teaching an old dog and new tricks.

Scott

[Matthew J]

> Those rubber shift lever covers were made for DT levers, but always seemed pretty pointless.

Speaking of fair's fair, this is a very clever idea.  

[Patrick Moore]

But I have your back. On my 58 cm Ram, I -- 5'10", mostly torso, short arms ("damn! I can't reach my change!!") and simply drop my arm loosely from my shoulder and find the dt shifter.

There is one more variable; how inclined your body is in your typical riding positions. My road bars are ~1" below saddle, and I'm at the usual 45* on the hoods, so ...

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[Ron Mc]

after the lecture, that's condescension.. 

here's my daughter's frame, her first drop bar and fast steering bike - she had problems steering it for the first 100 miles.  In everything, she is an aggressive charger.  

DT shifters would be a half-inch from the tire, and she didn't need the distraction, while she could develop the skill, she shifts the indexed bar ends without thinking

on my go-fast bike, DT shifters a good 3 inches from the tire

there are other variables than reach from the saddle

[Ron Mc]

I see, that was Steve's lecture - par for the course.  

[Matthew J]

> after the lecture, that's condescension.. here's my daughter's frame, her first drop bar and fast steering bike - she had problems steering it for the first 100 miles.  In everything, she is an aggressive charger.

It is hard to have a discussion on differing points of view where someone takes those differing points of view as a hostile challenge.  

Cannot tell from that picture, but it appears the Fuji is a very small frame with 700c wheels.  This being a Riv fan site and all, hope you do not take it wrong when I point on there are those - as in Grant Peterson - who believe smaller frames are better designed around smaller dia wheel sets.

Frame design notwithstanding, assuming the rider fits the frame you depict, reaching from the saddle to the spokes while riding would involve contorting the body in such a way the loss of balance would create a whole lot more safety concerns than fingers brushing up against spokes.

As Steve points out in his earlier posts, there are a lot of reasons for people not to want to use DT shifters.  Danger is not one of them.

[Ron Mc]

more like the Bullwinkle show

[Ron Mc]

you don't have the right to have a different point of view about my daughter's bike

[Ron Mc]

I made a post that was a point about something specific, nothing general.  The fact that you and steve both took general exception with it really show what dicks the two of you are - a general point made over and over

[Matthew J]

> you don't have the right to have a different point of view about my daughter's bike

I have no point of view on your daughter's bike.  

I have a point of view on whether DT shifters are any more or less safe than Bar End.  My point of view is they are not.

If you are sensitive to point of view about your daughter's bike, I suggest you not use it as an example in support of your point of view in a public forum.

[Jim Bronson]

I took it as him not understanding your concern with a DT setup. 

I support you taking whatever steps necessary to give your daughter the safest cycling environment possible.

--

[Matthew J]

> I support you taking whatever steps necessary to give your daughter the safest cycling environment possible.

Me too.  Truly sorry this whole topic went off track.

Bottom line is Lungimsam should certainly give DT a try.  He may just like it as much as some of us here do.

[Bill Lindsay]

"Bottom line is Lungimsam should certainly give DT a try.  He may just like it as much as some of us here do."

....unless his Sam Hillborne and Bleriot don't happen to be equipped with DT shift bosses. In that case he should just be happy with what he has because barcons are also great.

[Jim Bronson]

I was reading the old posts in this thread and noticed this one again,
I too tend to click the bar-end with my palm as I hold the bar, works
pretty good and it keeps two hands on the bar at all times. Of course
this only works for upshifts, unless someone has figured out how to
levitate their lever up with their palm ;)

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Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[David Craig]

My current Hilsen has DT shifters. As others have said, I like the looks. I'm also very comfortable with DT shifters so, even though I'm a tall guy, I don't really notice any issues that would ever make me want to give up style over function. 

When I had an Atlantis touring bike, I used DT shifters for several years before switching to barends. In those years, we were touring a lot and using Amtrak to get to the start of our tours. With a big frame, I had to remove the bars to fit the bike into the Amtrak bike box. Not dealing with shifter cables made that a bit easier. I also started using v-brakes and used a threadless stem adapter for the same reasons. Releasing the brakes was easy and not having to deal with a quill stem made getting the bars off super simple. I did switch back to barends on my last tour. I do find them a bit safer and easier on a loaded touring bike when riding slowly, dealing with strong crosswinds or in traffic on rutted city streets. 

Dave

[Geir Bentzen]

I have had all the the types of shifters mentioned up to now, and more, over the almost 50 years I have been riding bikes. Truth be told, I like them all when they work well. I think that is the core here; what works well for you right now on the chosen bike? DT shifters worked very well for me in the 1970s and 80s, but I chose bar ends for my Hunqapillar this year. It's set up with 48 cm Noodles. I just don't want to stretch or bend, and think I may be older and stiffer the next many (I hope) years too. On the other hand I do love the cleanliness and elegance of DT shifters. No stray cables! I have a bike with stem shifters, a 1976 or 77 Fuji, and for that bike it feels great. The Nitto Olympic drop bars are very narrow making the stem an easy place to reach. The set up I have the most doubts about is for a Sachs 7 speed where I turn a ring on the handlebar. It often feels hard and without a clear message to me about what happened back down there. For mountain bikes thumbies are great. In my opinion you or some earlier owner/builder built a personality into the bike. Get to know it before you start changing too much and end up with a different bike altogether, and don't overthink things that work. Brifters are excellent if you ride fast and intense with full focus on staying at the right cadence and keeping the speed up, then you need fast and frequent shifting. But how often do you do that?

Geir

[Dave Johnston]

How about 1 of each like on my rSogn? Friction DT on the left and Indexed barcon on the right.

[Matthew J]

> unless his Sam Hillborne and Bleriot don't happen to be equipped with DT shift bosses. 

Believe Bleriot did come with DT bosses.  Not sure about the Hillborne.

[Matthew J]

>How about 1 of each like on my rSogn? Friction DT on the left and Indexed barcon on the right. 

Unique, creative and clever.  I love it.  

[William deRosset]

Dear Steve,

On the other hand, I strongly prefer downtube shifters to bar-cons.

One, I find my bicycle handling is not affected by the reach to the downtube with my right hand. I'm not especially tall, but am +4" on the ape index (long arms) and the downtube shifters require less effort to reach from the drops than the bar-ends.  I deeply dislike shifting both hands to the ends of the drops to make a shift, and moving my hands from hooks to drops disturbs me more than just letting go with one hand. 

Second, a double shift is a one-handed affair with downtube shifters--it can all be done in one movement, with one hand, faster than with bar-cons. Thumb on the left shifter, heel of the hand on the right with the last fingers to fine-tune the (friction) shift if downshifting. Thumb and index finger on left shifter, heel of hand and rest of fingers on right shifter.  It is even easier with indexed systems and early-shifting derailleurs.

Bar-cons made me give up on half-step gearing. Downtube shifters brought me back.

Bar-cons actually work pretty well for conditions when you can't let go of a handlebar due to the roughness of the trail. For me, that's offroad.

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[lungimsam]

No bosses on my 53 Bleriot or 2013 Sam.
Pondering this for a next bike I may get one day to see if I should get bosses on the frame or not.
I guess the only way I'll know is to find a bike with them and try it out.
I am perfectly happy with my bar end shifters now though.

[ascpgh]

That's great! Mixed media shifting is always interesting. 

Long ago, when promoting a stage race in the Ozark Mountains, this up and coming kid from Dallas who had been doing triathlons came and he preferred a bar end on the left and a Shimano brifter on the right. He vastly preferred the infinite trimming ability over the multiple choice question of STI shifting.

Once sponsored, complete groups were obligatory.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

Besides Lance, Pantani did the same thing; DT left, Ergo right.  Apparently it's popular for mountain stages.

Doing my first century, something like 16 years ago now, I saw a guy on a Lightspeed (IIRC) with DT shifters.  I was so proud of my Command Shifters at the time.  We started chatting about shifting and he mentioned that the DT shifters were lighter than integrated units...and gradually rode away from me up the hill (though I don't think the shifters were the reason for that).

[Matthew J]

> Pondering this for a next bike I may get one day to see if I should get bosses on the frame or not. 

Yeah, Bill L. pointed out to me no DT shifters on the Bleriot. 

> I guess the only way I'll know is to find a bike with them and try it out

The opportunity to get a third bike is all the more reason to try DT!  

Another option - Simplex Retrofriction clamp on version are often available for less than braze on.  Case in point:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SIMPLEX-Super-LJ-Friction-Downtube-Shifters-Clamp-On-Late-Version-Vintage-France-/261705833334?pt=US_Shifters&hash=item3ceee21b76

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm not out to get you, Matthew J, but vintage clamp on shifters will only fit 'standard' diameter downtubes (28.6mm).  The Bleriot and Hillborne in question are 31.8mm OS tubing.  I'm sure there's a Problem Solvers variant that would make it possible. 

Adding an entirely new bike to the stable to add a shifting technique is brilliant, though. 

B

[lungimsam]

I'm thinking DT braze ons (clean set up, cuz no shifter housings up front) and cantis for maximum ease of front rack ability and fender ability.

[Matthew J]

I'm not out to get you, Matthew J, but vintage clamp on shifters will only fit 'standard' diameter downtubes (28.6mm).  The Bleriot and Hillborne in question are 31.8mm OS tubing. 

No worries.  Was about to say guess this means Lungimsam ought to get a Hilsen but see where he wants cantis.  Tried and true Atlantis fits the bill there.

[Garth]

DT shifting was/is great with low front end bikes and low drop bars :)    No so great with tall front end bikes intended for a more upright position and high bars , the reach and bend are awkward .  

Bar end , not for me either .  Too close to my knees when turning sometimes .  

My choice, bar top thumbies :)   ding ding ding ! ! !   we have a winner ! 

[Lynne Fitz]

I am compelled to mention that bar end shifters do not preclude using a front rack and bag. Both my Bleriot and my Sweetpea are set up that way.

[Patrick Moore]

Early winter irritability is showing up in this thread. Let's count our blessings and move on.

[Patrick Moore]

I too preferred dt shifters for half stepping, though the best setup for me was those devices that allowed to you mount dt shifters just inboard of your brake hoods -- mid '90s invention, IIRC, sold by Rivendell at one time. I remember! Kelly Take-Offs!!

I too prefer bar cons for off road. 

But I solved my anxiety about which to choose by riding mostly fixed.

On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 8:44 PM, William deRosset <wmder...@gmail.com> wrote:

 [...] Bar-cons made me give up on half-step gearing. Downtube shifters brought me back.

Bar-cons actually work pretty well for conditions when you can't let go of a handlebar due to the roughness of the trail. For me, that's offroad.

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[Norman Bone]

All-

Is anyone still making indexed DT shifters?

-Norman 'waiting for the Pineapple Express in PDX' Bone

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes.  You can still get 8 speed Tiagra.  9 and 10 speed Shimano DT shifters I think you'll be buying either in the second hand or the NOS kind of market.  I've used super cheap 9 speed SunRace DT shifters.  The clicks were shimano 9-speed compatible.  

[Scott Henry]

On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Lynne Fitz <fitz...@comcast.net> wrote:

I am compelled to mention that bar end shifters do not preclude using a front rack and bag.  Both my Bleriot and my Sweetpea are set up that way.

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​Not 100% sure where we are going here, what shifter setup precludes racks and bags?

If that was a STI cut, than I totally disagree, I have Ultegra STI levers on my Handsome with a front bag and on my Kogswell with a decaleur and rack.   

[Johan Larsson]

On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 6:09:21 AM UTC+1, lungimsam wrote:

If I love friction  bar end shifting, will I find friction DT shifting just as easy and enjoyable?

Never done it before, and seems like the reach may make it more difficult and looks like there's a big potential for knees banging into forearms while pedalling and reaching down to shift  at same time.

What's your experience been with DT shifting?

I like both bar-end and DT shifters and have bikes with both systems. No problems switching between bikes with different types. I'm 6'2" and have bikes between 63-66 cm, and there's no issues reaching down to DT shifters on these bikes, not with drop bars at least. With bikes I'm sitting upright on, I only use MTB shifters or stem-mounted shifters.

What I appreciate with DT shifters is their simplicity. They work for all road use. Bar-end shifters are better when you don't want to let go off the handlebar, if you ride slippery gravel roads or off-road - trails, single track etc.

Johan Larsson,
Sweden

[hugh flynn]

I'll throw my hat in the ring as a DT shifter proponent. I have bikes with both, and have never really felt any added security from the "keeps your hands on the bars" aspect of bar end shifters. I find that I have a greater tendency to nudge my bats slightly when shifing - especially with upshifts. I'm neither a young nor small person (pushing 50 with 60 cm frames), and have never found the reach to my down tube shifters to be a big deal. Frankly, DT's just feel more "natural" to me.

All that having been said, I do prefer bar end shifters with M-bars...but only slightly. 

For the record, my first road bike came with Campy Brifters. I came to both down tube and bar end shifters as an adult in the modern (8 speed and after) age. 

Hugh Flynn

Newburyport, MA

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Hugh Flynn
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[velomann]

I own and ride bikes with DT, bar-end, thumb shifters, and 2 x 10 brifters on my cross bike. Overall I prefer the simplicity and clean lines of DT shifters. I find a 2 x 9 index system to be crisp and relatively inexpensive to maintain once you find the DA shifters, among the best shifters ever made IMHO. That said, it depends on the use. If you do a lot of gravel or off road, bar ends or thumb shifters allow better control, especially if you do much shifting while climbing. Overall if I had to settle on one system I love DT.