loaded handling question

[cyclotourist]

Last week on a S240, had a great time (except for that one incident)
but the problem was really, really bad shimmy/wobble. So bad I really
couldn't take my hands off even for a bit at any speed.
Rear loaded, with a little bit up front (sleeping bag). Pannier on one
side only but not a ton of weight in there. Heaviest thing was
probably the tent, packed up high.
So what am I packing wrong? I don't want to get a whole new luggage
system, nor a new bike, just want to work with what I've got and what
you can see here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/17795666300/in/photostream/lightbox/
Suggestions? Want to get it so I'm stable and can ride hands free, at
least at lower <10mph speeds. Possible, or just the wrong bike for it?
Intermediate Riv tubing, OS downtube, nothing super light, nor super
stout, basically like a Hilsen I would guess.

--
Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Joe Bartoe]

David,

My experience with a Hilsen with small front rack and small front bag on it, indicates that Riv-designed bikes are not really good handlers with front loads. It shimmied like crazy! The other items may have contributed, but my guess is the stuff on the front had more to do with the shimmy.

Joe

Joe Bartoe
Synaptic Cycles Bicycle Rentals, Inc.
email: j...@synapticcycles.com
website: www.synapticcycles.com
Twitter: @synapticcycles
phone: 949-374-6079

[cyclotourist]

It took me a sec to find a photo, but it handled just as terribly when
it was straight rear-loaded with nothing on front. You can see it on
the right in this photo, with both panniers in place and packed full:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/15187812094
So basically two panniers full + tent in back = bad
One pannier + tent in back with light load on front = bad
Is there a magic way to load this that makes it pleasant to ride? I
know it's not a loaded touring bike, but hoping for at least a little
stability whilst loaded and not crazy shimmy all over the road.

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[sameness]

You have a lugged Nitto seat post, so I'm guessing you are looking for more setback than something bog standard of that vintage (late '90s-early '00s?) natively affords.

None of this helps you with no-hands, something I've never been able to accomplish confidently on any GP design ('92 X0-1, '99 Road Custom). I am also bad at bikes.

But I have found that if you weight up the front more with RIDER than you would otherwise given our current collective insight into "Higher, shorter, backer, better!", you wil peg it down enough to tame the attendant geometries o' the age. I can't explain it, but I have $400 in stem, bar and post experiments that are happy to bear witness.

I'm sure someone better at math and geometry and trail and and and might be able to explain/disprove this on paper, but my experience of bikes from that era are that they need some weight up front, and often attendant to the weight up back.

I spent five years struggling with Albatross bars on my XO-1... until I went with a 13cm stem, kept the height at roughly saddle nose, and moved the saddle forward eeeeeverso. Suddenly the squirrel was tamed. The further forward I was, the less wander-y things got on all counts, loaded or not. I basically mimicked the load of a lower M-bar, as it was designed for. It was still high(er), it was just further out than made sense.

I even have a rack and basket on the front. Heretofore impossible, if not still heresy.

Do you ride a lot on the tops or hoods? Go drops, hooks, ramps, put more weight over the front, and see how you go. Drop the stem an RCH. Move the saddle up some.

Anyhoo. Our miles may vary.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

[cyclotourist]

Interesting observations!
I have the lugged seatpost just cuz' I love how it looks :-) I don't
have the saddle all the way back in it as that was never the
intention, but can try moving it a touch forward. I ride loaded pretty
rarely, so for 98.7% of my riding everything is fine.

FWIW my Quickbeam with Jitensha bars and a front load rides fine
no-handed. But that's w/out a rear load at all.

[Joe Broach]

Hi David,

My Canti-Rom is probably pretty close in terms of flex (8-5-8 OS, 63cm). I've found rear rack load + any kind of front load unleashes the shimmy monster. It's been best with a big rear saddlebag and light front load. OK with big saddlebag + light front rack load + front low-riders. Try a giant rear saddlebag and then carefully add to the front is my advice. 

Best,

joe broach

pdx or

[cyclotourist]

Thanks JB! I have a Hoss bag just like yours, but don't know what I
would do w/ the tent if I used it. Although bivies are the new tents!
Did you ever use panniers, and was that any different than the big
rear bag? It seems like bag or panniers wouldn't really matter that
much differently as they are both over the rear axle???

[Joe Broach]

With the caveat that I haven't tried a super stiff rear rack (e.g. Tubus/Nitto), for whatever reason the same weight in the Hoss/Camper is way less likely to cause shimmy for me on this bike. Part of the issue might be my big feet (size 12s) mean panniers have to slide pretty far back. Even with tiny panniers, it took concentration to hold a line. The worst was when I had a small rubbermaid mounted on top of a light rear rack (Nitto R15). That would shimmy with just a jacket back there! 

In the second photo, I have a one-man tent + groundsheet on the front rack (except for the poles). I've been using a bivy lately.

Best,

joe broach

pdx or

[Jeffrey Marco]

I get shimmy on my Atlantis with a full Nelson Long flap (cool band name) with no front load.  I must be doing something wrong....

[Jeffrey Marco]

Here's a pic of my setup. Just in case.

[Deacon Patrick]

Obviously my vertigo has a profound effect on my experience here, but I can take my hands off very briefly with a minimal day ride load, but never with a bikepacking load. The Hunqapillar rides very smooth with a bikepacking load with rear panniers, tent/bag/pad on top and food bag on the front. Questions/ideas:

-- how balanced is the weight of your pannier load, one side to the other and even front to back?

-- perhaps try a small front rack and put a wee bit of weight right above the tire, well anchored like in a trunksack and see how it does?

You've likely seen my bikepacking set up, but here it is:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/16786949014/in/album-72157652026645308/

With abandon,

Patrick

[RonaTD]

My experience with Herons, Quickbeam, and Bleriot is that adding any kind of saddlebag weight increases shimmy propensity. The most stable handling I have found, and it's remarkably stable, is all the weight up front, a little in the handlebar bag and most of it in a pair of panniers at the hub area. It's how I commute now.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI

[Brian Campbell]

Why are people trying to ride loaded bikes with no hands? 

[Ryan Fleming]

At the risk of being a smartass, I was wondering that too. :)

 

Maybe, David, your AR would work better except that those pesky M-bars won't allow you to have the Wald basket. I have a funny feeling that a Sam or a Hunq or an Atlantis would shimmy less when loaded this way. Jan and others have commented that some of the needle bearing headsets can mitigate shimmy.

 

But I remember in the late eighties when I toured loaded I used front panniers on low-riders as well as rear panniers with my tent and sleeping bag lashed to the top of a Blackburn rack with Coughlin straps (look a lot like the Irish straps Riv sells). Bikes I rode were my PX-10 (not ideal gearing and I did have shimmy due to loosening headset and a 531 frame and later a Cannondale T something - which really handled well loaded. But back then the conventional wisdom was to load low and balanced

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:34:05 AM UTC-5, Brian Campbell wrote:

[Andy.M]

It has been my experience with the Atlantis that any high rear load adds a considerable amount of shimmy.  The best loaded handling for me I have found to be lower on the front.  To me, the low front load also feels like it adds a bit of stability to the bike, like its more solidly on the ground.
-Andy

[Patrick Moore]

As an inveterate rear-loader, of several Rivendells ('94 Road, '03 Road, Sam Hill) and many other bikes, I haven't found that rear loads even up to 40 lb cause shimmy, while even modest front loads -- over 5 but no more than 10 lb -- make the front wheels harder to control.

Perhaps shimmy associated with rear loads may be caused by flexing racks? I know that the (11 1/2 oz Tubus Fly is girder-steady; not to mention the Cargo

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[Patrick Moore]

Forgot the Ram: again, Fly, 40 lb, no shimmy.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Because I like riding with no hands. Shouldn't I be able to when loaded? Are they mutually exclusive? Serious question.

My bike rides absolutely brilliantly when not loaded, but the four or so times a year I ride loaded, it's pretty miserable. As I don't do it a lot, I don't want to get a whole new bike. I have the big Nitto rack in back, just seems like it should work as is. If I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to fix it!

[Patrick Moore]

I'm not upset if I can't ride no hands, laden or not; it's just a minor annoyance. But no, the two are not exclusive. My '94 rode rock solid and rock steady no-hands at 8 mph and at 18 mph with 30 lb in an unsupported Camper Longflap; and the '94 was quicker handling than the later ones, with 42.4 cm stays. (Fly rack.) The Ram was almost as stable; Fly. The '73 Motobecane: again, stable, no shimmy, Fly; and this with a flexy frame. The '03, less so -- perhaps because the rack is custom and not Tubus?

That said, the '94, like the '03 would shimmy from time to time, but not regularly under heavy rear load; I know that when I switched from 26 X 1" Turbos to 26 X 1.35" Kojaks, the '03 started to shimmy (no load as well as loads of varying weights, rear).

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[Deacon Patrick]

For me loaded and hands free are mutually exclusive, but have dismissed myself from having a strong voice in this because of my vertigo. Even if I was comfortable riding no-hands with a load, the amount of correction required when something goes off is huge compared with an unloaded bike with is much more responsive.

I'd say it's equivalent to a semi-trucker who refuses to use low gear to never speed up heading down a mountain pass. Bad idea.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Brian Campbell]

IMHO they are almost :-) mutually exclusive given the number of factors that come into play when riding an unladen bike, no handed. When you add weight, in unequal amounts, at different points, all over the bike, stabilty with no hands would not be an expectation I would have of any bike.

 

I would guess it is more an issue of practice riding no hands and shifting your own body weight to accomodate the ever changing situation. Seems like you would be working harder than just keeping your hands on the bars or stopping to stretch if need be.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Yeah, I don't mean riding for for miles no-hands, but it's nice to sit up and take hands off occasionally. But above and beyond that, I have to ride seriously grabbing the bars with both hands when loaded. I really can't even ride one-handed without shimmy starting. It's pretty severe, and not a whole bunch of fun.

[Deacon Patrick]

One handed becomes iffy for me above 30mph or on rougher roads, but otherwise is easy. Sound like two things may need to shift: your load and dropping no-hands from your expectations?

With abandon,

Patrick 

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I'm okay w/ no hands (I guess), but hope that moving loads around can reduce the necessity for tight two-handed grip!

[Mike Schiller]

Sounds  like the  option you should try is either front or rear panniers with only a light front top load ( no basket) up high. Keeping the weight as low as possible.

Every bike/load is different base on how you pack.  Big loads up high are a shimmy cause in most cases.  

I remember riding down the NorCal coast on my Soma Double Cross with everything in rear panniers and the bike tracked like a laser beam.  

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

[Joe Broach]

Sure, definitely try some different loading strategies with panniers, but I think other posters area too quick to dismiss a big saddlebag. It's the only rear load that doesn't have leverage on the rear triangle (as long as it's mostly hanging from the saddle, with any rack or support just providing a little stability).

As shown above, it's the only way I've found to carry a 30+/- lb load on a Riv similar to David's and still be able to ride shimmy free, including the all important to some of us no hands. Second best had been the big saddlebag plus front low riders. Rear rack loads even by themselves don't work for me on this bike. Keep in mind both David and I ride taller frames, so we may be pushing the boundaries of light tubing more than those on smaller frames.

Dr. Moore can carry a bushel of watermelons on the rear of an al dente noodle, all while sipping a glass of cheap merlot. I've not been able to reach his state of rear-biased nirvana so far. But, the wheel is ever turning

Good info all around.

Best,
joe broach
pdx or

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I'm going to fool around with some different dry-run set up ups and see how it goes. 

Rear bag only, rear bag w/ small front load, rear panniers only, and rear pannies with just a little up front.

Also going to try the saddle a bit forward and see if that does anything.

Hands free isn't the ultimate goal, as I'll settle for steady and smooth!

[dougP]

David:

As you can see, there is no single answer to the shimmy problem.  Personally, I think where the load is, both front / rear and high / low) and how each of us rides are major factors.  A good example is Joe Bartoe's experience with shimmy on his Hilsen with a light front load, whereas my Atlantis will shimmy with a lightly loaded rear saddlebag but moving that bag to the front solves the problem.  Atlantis & Homer are different bikes, and Joe & I are different sizes and likely riding styles. 

As to solving the puzzle, I found a gentle hill that allowed the bike roll up to about 20 mph w/o pedaling (pedaling seems to dampen things for me).  I took 4 panniers loaded with books to simulate the weight of my gear, and tried all front, all rear, some front, some rear, etc., until I found a combination that was rock solid.  What works for me is 60% of the weight in front & 40% rear.  For an S240 or a loding tour, I only need 2 bags so they both go on the front.  In the photo, I don't recall what was in the saddle bag but it was probably a last minute add for overflow, and the sleeping pad hanging off the back can't weight much.

To avoid buying new stuff for only a few trips per year, take what you've got & find a similar hill and experiment.  I think the no-hands is asking a lot but I grant you should be able to ride the bike light handed & not in a death grep.  Seriously try putting some heavy stuff in the basket BUT make sure it can't shift or bounce around.  I had some dive weights in my Acorn bag on time (they would let us drive tent stakes) and got shimmy for shimmy (probably had 12 lbs of lead). 

Location is another variable.  Weight up high (basket, rando bag, etc.) seems to be shimmy enabling.  If you can't come up with a non-shimmy combination with your existing rackage, you may have to look at low riders.  IMHO getting the weight centered around the front axle seems to improve life greatly.  I've used my big Ortleibs on my Tubus Duo front rack and it's rock solid. 

Another consideration that's been mentioned is the roller bearing headset that Riv sells.  I've got one on my Atlantis and have not had any shimmy since installing.  But then before that I'd worked around the shimmy with loading so it can't be credited entirely.  But it's still worth a thought. 

Lastly, and probably heresay here, but I've had situations where I know the Nitto Big Back rack was contributing to handling difficulties, albeit likely overloaded by their standards.  As beautiful as they are, they lack lateral triangulation and can develop resonance.  Tubus and other rack makers design with a triangle, viewed from the rear, that greatly stiffens the structure.  The Nitto R-26 (?) that I had for while is essentially a pyramid, is made out of 10 mm tubing, and is as stiff as they come.  Unfortunately the platform was a little small for my needs.

On our next S24O, I'll throw all my junk on the back to see how things work with Tubus rack since I got the needle bearing headset.  The downside to front low riders is limited clearance. 

dougP

[cyclotourist]

Thanks Doug! Last weekend would have been a good time to talk about
this, but too busy scraping off the mud! :-)
I only had the one pannier this time, so figure that could be a
contributing factor. Although last time I had two, with same effect.
Hands-free isn't the absolute goal, but riding with a light touch
would be nice! I get death-shimmy at even real low speeds if I let go
of the bars, and a minor one if I use one hand light. Gotta' be a
better way!

[Clayton]

I was troubled by severe shimmy on my old Atlantis. I had a Nitto small front rack with a Tubus low rider. No matter how I changed the weight, it persisted.  I bought a Nitto big front rack from Riv and the shimmy disappeared. For years I resisted the voices that said to load the front. Once I did, no prob. I have a theory that the Tubus front rack and others of the ilk, are too flexible laterally (not the rears, they are triangulated). Between the fork and rack oscillation dance, wibblewobbles raise their heads and make one nervous. The load yaws on the flexible rack, twisting the fork a bit, which hits the right oscillation frequency and..... 

Claytonious Q 

[hangtownmatt]

Since nobody else has suggested it, I'll throw this out for consideration - How about a trailer?  Here's one I'd consider and might be perfect for your adventures:

http://www.extrawheel.com/en/3/bicycle_trailer/

https://www.biketrailershop.com/extrawheel-trailers-c-140.html

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 9:07:38 PM UTC-7, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

Last week on a S240, had a great time (except for that one incident)

but the problem was really, really bad shimmy/wobble. So bad I really
couldn't take my hands off even for a bit at any speed.
Rear loaded, with a little bit up front (sleeping bag). Pannier on one
side only but not a ton of weight in there. Heaviest thing was
probably the tent, packed up high.
So what am I packing wrong? I don't want to get a whole new luggage
system, nor a new bike, just want to work with what I've got and what
you can see here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/17795666300/in/photostream/lightbox/
Suggestions? Want to get it so I'm stable and can ride hands free, at
least at lower <10mph speeds. Possible, or just the wrong bike for it?
Intermediate Riv tubing, OS downtube, nothing super light, nor super
stout, basically like a Hilsen I would guess.

[hangtownmatt]

Sorry David.  I just reread your post and see you only want suggestions that work with what you already have.  Good luck with that.

[cyclotourist]

I'm preferring to work with what I got, and if I just improve it I'll
be happy. But if nothing works, open to upgrades. Just seems that I
have a decent bike, a good rack, nice panniers, a Hoss seatbag, so
some combination of the above should work!!!

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[dougP]

This is interesting, and illustrates the difficulty of dealing with shimmy.  I use the Tubus Duo low rider (no hoop, just 2 loose pieces) and have loaded it with Ortleib large panniers (10-12 lbs each).  Above that is a Nitto small front rack supporting an Acorn boxy rando bag (the early, smaller one), usually stuffed full if traveling.  No rear bag, just a seat wedge with small tools, tube, etc..  This set-up has never shimmied. 

A couple of possible variables from Clayton's set-up:  my Atlantis has a 40 mm trail fork (stock is around 65 mm) and the IRD roller bearing headset.  Depending on who you believe, lowering trail either magnifies or reduces the tendency to shimmy (helpful, no?) but consensus is the roller bearing headset has more drag & so may dampen oscillation, helping reduce shimmy.

I agree with Clayton's hypothesis about rack wiggle & fork twist.  Since shimmy is an oscillation, minor movements could set up major reactions.  Like Clayton, my ride was more stable once I started loading the front, even with my old junky, definitely flexy aluminum low rider, stock fork & headset.  I did still encounter shimmy.  The randomness of it spurred me on to look for a reliable solution.

dougP 

[hsmitham]

Whew! I just read all the posts, took two attempts. I've been busy!

I have to agree with rack/load flex as at least one point of origin of oscillation that is then transmitted through out the frame, but in the extreme. Both my Hilsen and Atlantis have had shimmy. When riding the Hilsen basically unloaded at speeds above 25 mph hands free I get shimmy as soon as I squeeze the top tube with my knees it's gone! Hands on nothing.

I had the same issue with my '03 Atlantis loaded or unloaded. Violent shimmy even with one hand loaded and horrible at low speed climbing, lots of drift and correction which is super fatiguing. Mike Schiller suggested the Tange needle bearing headset, which I installed. The headset made a huge difference and like Doug said the increased friction at the bottom race (the upper race are normal bearings)dampens the oscillation. But this headset will only go so far in resolving shimmy. Personally, I feel that the ride quality inherent with Riv's tubing and geometry that we admire is also what contributes to frame flex and consequently shimmy. In the case of both my bikes unladen I hypothesize the shake originates at the bottom fork race and becomes amplified though out the frame. Add a load that flexes and you have a recipe for increased shaking. I understand that some Riv's don't manifest these qualities therefore I attribute this to inconsistencies in batch builds. Also, I'm certainly no expert in tubing types and geometry but understand there are other bike builds that don't manifest these qualities. But since we're talking about a Riv "All Rounder".

David, I understand you want to use what you have but I'll still throw out my suggestions even though.

So how to mitigate these aspects and have the stability desired? Install the Tange headset number one, next as Doug mentioned, try different load configurations. I like a low front load even with a medium trail fork using a Tubus low rider rack with hoop, small campee rack/basket configuration under 3 lbs and a light rear load strapped/secured to an R14 rack. When feasible I ditch the low rider's off road.

In terms of cockpits, and I know lots of you love drop bars but for comfort I like Albatross bars up high, I can be in an aggressive position in the hooks and when I need to give my back and neck a break I can sit up with no need to ride hands free.

I have plans to remove & replace my Hilsen's headset and since my Atlantis is my loaded tour rig I have plans to have a low trail fork built just to see whether or not it makes a difference. My .02.

Cheers,

~Hugh
Los Angeles, CA

[dougP]

Hugh:

In the interest of science, further testing required.  David & I are contemplating doing some tests with his bike.  If we can coordinate it, you might want to join us with your Atlantis.  I did not know your Atlantis was also an '03.  I would guess ours are from the same batch or really close.  My s.n. is 519; take a look under your BB to see what yours is.  I have a couple of ideas that may be worth exploring.  We're thinking about the weekend of June 14 when REI has their big gear sale in Tustin. 

dougP

[Hugh Smitham]

Hey Doug,

PM me with your thoughts.

~Hugh

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[hangtownmatt]

Wow!  I find this post disturbing.  If I bought an Atlantis expecting it to carry a load and it couldn't, I'd be upset.

As a side note:  I participated in this years "Party at Pardee".  It's a Northern California foothills annual metric century with about 4,500 feet of climbing.  In a sea of carbon I rode my Sam Hillborne.  As I was tooling along a Surly Trucker pulled up alongside and we rode together for a while.  He complimented me on my bike and told me about some of his tours; both in the USA and out.  This dude was seasoned, and if this ride was a race he probably could have won it on his unloaded Trucker.  I could only keep pace for a while. He was a fan of Rivendell and was familiar with their offerings.  I asked him a few questions about touring and he said the Trucker was a "noodle" with 60 lbs. of gear.  He was disappointed.  I asked him if he thought my Sam could handle 40 lbs. and he said "I doubt it".  I think he was being polite. 

Since than, I've been thinking about the possibility of a trailer.  I'd hate to sell the Sam because I love the ride and want to grow old with it,  Gotta love romance.  One day, I hope to haul more than 40+ lbs on a touring expedition, and I do not want to have to get another bike.  A trailer probably has its own set of problems but I can see advantages also.   For example, less weight on the primary wheels; this would seem to be especially significant off road.  Less weight on the frame which may help with shimmy, and maybe most importantly, the ability to have one bike for recreational riding, commuting, S240's and touring.  All the while, still making use of other previously purchased accessories such as racks, panniers, baskets, shopsacks, etc.

For the record these are just my thoughts, and I want to clarify this because I really have no S240 or touring experience on a bicycle.  I do, however, have a lot of experience touring and camping on a motorcycle.  I think there are similarities.  Motorcycles will shimmy also, but I learned to live with it, played with it, and had fun with it, but never considered a trailer.  Probably because things are different when you have several hundred CC's between your legs at the twist of a wrist.   But I'm no newbie to cycling either.  I've been commuting on a bicycle, on average 30 - 45 miles per day, 5 days per week, for the most part year round, since the early nineties.  

I don't want to take this topic off track but I am interested in what people think of trailers, as an option, in general.  At least until we hear the scientific results from of dougP,  David and Hugh.

On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 7:13:17 PM UTC-7, hsmitham wrote:

[cyclotourist]

I want to reiterate that my bike bike rides rock-solid at any speed
hands free. I can corner on it, change lanes, whatever and am fine.
It's just adding S240 weight to it that it freaks out. Hopefully that
can be mitigated if not eliminated with some simple changes in set up
and/or packing technique!

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[Mike Schiller]

Seems like getting the load down as low as possible will be the best option.  Low riders in the front for heavier loads, a small saddle bag and front bag for lighter items.  The IRD headset will help as well.

But even with all of the above you may still get some shimmy. Sometimes you may have to stop and rearrange  things in your bags for better balance.  Unless  you have a really stiff bike riding with one pannier is a sure way to cause shimmy. One of the good things about the bikepacking frame bags is it puts weight lower and centered, so those are options too.  

~mike

[Mike Schiller]

the other "thing" that no one has mentioned is that two different frames of the same model may behave differently as regards shimmy. Slight differences in frame  alignment and or assembly and even rider pedaling style can cause shimmy.  

So you do everything mentioned above to correct it but you may never completely get rid of it.   

~mike

[Matt B.]

For mid trail or Surly/Rivendell-like geometries, when configuring a rear load it helps to keep as much weight as possible in front of the rear axle. The contact patch of the rear tire is the fulcrum of a shimmy inducing lever. For the front you want low panniers with mass nearly concentric with the axle. A basket or rack is great for your tent and some lightweight clothing. After that you can refine the handling with some experimentation, but ultimately you won't expert to ride with no hands when the bike is fully loaded.

[Doug Williams]

I just got a new Homer and love it. I did get a small amount of shimmy when I had my SaddleSack Large fully loaded on an R14 rack with no other weight anywhere else. But really...I have a Mark's front rack so there is no excuse for that. I added a basket on the front so I'll put some weight there if the shimmy returns. But now I wish I had popped for the NeedleBlasteur headset. Maybe I'll get a NeedleBlasteur now anyway. But I don't want to ding up my Hilsen trying to install it. How tough is it for someone of only basic mechanical expertise to swap out a headset?

Doug

[Matt B.]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 8:57:12 AM UTC-4, Doug Williams wrote:

I just got a new Homer and love it. I did get a small amount of shimmy when I had my SaddleSack Large fully loaded on an R14 rack with no other weight anywhere else. But really...I have a Mark's front rack so there is no excuse for that. I added a basket on the front so I'll put some weight there if the shimmy returns. But now I wish I had popped for the NeedleBlasteur headset. Maybe I'll get a NeedleBlasteur now anyway. But I don't want to ding up my Hilsen trying to install it. How tough is it for someone of only basic mechanical expertise to swap out a headset?

Doug

Changing out a headset is a pretty easy job if you have the right tools, but potentially messy without them.    To do it right, for removing the old headset you'll want a crown race puller, a cup remover, and a mallet or light hammer.     For installation, you'll want a crown race setter.   For installing the cups you can just use a piece of 5/8" threaded rod, two nuts, and some big washers.    
 

[Hugh Smitham]

Doug,

Any reputable bike shop will swap your headset for about $25~30. YMMV.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 5:57 AM, Doug Williams <sal...@minbaritm.com> wrote:

I just got a new Homer and love it. I did get a small amount of shimmy when I had my SaddleSack Large fully loaded on an R14 rack with no other weight anywhere else. But really...I have a Mark's front rack so there is no excuse for that. I added a basket on the front so I'll put some weight there if the shimmy returns. But now I wish I had popped for the NeedleBlasteur headset. Maybe I'll get a NeedleBlasteur now anyway. But I don't want to ding up my Hilsen trying to install it. How tough is it for someone of only basic mechanical expertise to swap out a headset?

Doug

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[dougP]

Doug:

Shops have tools specific to the job.  I do nearly all my own work but have the shop change out the headset.  I just take things apart down to removing the fork.  I made an appt for a day when they expected to be slow, walked in & they R&R the headset while I waited & watched.  All they had to do was pop the old bits out of the frame & press in the new ones.  IIRC they charged me about $30, far less than the cost of my buying tools I would only use every few years. 

dougP

[Kelly]

Try putting your knee against the top tube.  I know for me at some speed shimmy can be induced or begin and my knee calms it right down.   

That being said.. my theories.. right wrong ... shrug.. just me thinking.. 

1. On my larger framed bike with larger tires I get shimmy free handed... non of my wife bikes shimmy at 61cm  even with load.   Betty Foy, Atlantis, and Roadeo

2. Tires.. the bigger the tire the more chance of shimmy.. so balance the tires... (ok that's a joke but a thought for me)  based on AHH and Rambouiet that with light fast tires 32mm from compass no shimmy at all... 

3. when loaded on my Bombadil I can ride no handed at lower speeds with 70lbs of gear including handlebar bag with 35mm dslr in it, 9lb tent in front basket and 24lbs of gear in the lowrider front panniers... at lower speeds... 

Note to that on every bike I can comfortable go down hill holding my floppy hat on my head with one hand and other hand lightly on the bar with zero shimmy or even a trace...    

As for the comment about a Hilbourne not being able to carry 40lbs I say that it's not my experience as several friends of mine have them and tour with them successfully.    

That's my two cents with my experience... shrug..

Kelly

[dougP]

" If I bought an Atlantis expecting it to carry a load and it couldn't, I'd be upset. "

It's a matter of placement, balance, and load security.  The bike is fine; it's how we choose to use it that can cause variations in handling.  Lot's of trial & lots of error went into my learning experience.  Your Sam could likely carry 40 lbs but would have to be organized properly to do so.  Mike's comments about low placement are especially pertinent.

dougP

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Yes, this is what I'm looking for: "Note to that on every bike I can comfortable go down hill holding my floppy hat on my head with one hand and other hand lightly on the bar with zero shimmy or even a trace...    "

I think I just need to pack better, I like the forward of rear axle idea. That may be why a seat bag works well, even though it's high up??? 

[Will]

I have an Atlantis with a Tubus Logo Evo rear rack. I heavily load one pannier (right hand side) frequently. Has never shimmied.

I think a good deal of this shimmy business is due to folks using poor cargo systems. Yes, I know Riv promotes saddlebags, but riding with high weight isn't wise. Also, weighting small single strut platform racks isn't wise. You need cross bracing to stabilize the rack. You also need a good relationship between the rack and axles. Attaching rack struts to barrels halfway up a fork blade, or barrels halfway down a seat stay doesn't carry the weight directly to the axles, it hangs the weight on the frame. You need to take the weight to the dropouts.

I strongly suspect that the relationship between the loaded bike weight (rider + cargo) and the rotating mass of the wheels is a key factor. Moving that rotating mass in or out and inch or two (trail) or moving the rider (or cargo) in or out or down with respect to the wheels (rotating mass) should resolve most issues. I think the key element is associating the weight with the axles. If you can get the weight more directly to the axles... why would the frame vibrate?

[Jim Bronson]

"Loaded handling question"

Pun intended?  ;)

On May 28, 2015 11:07 PM, "cyclotourist" <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:

Last week on a S240, had a great time (except for that one incident)
but the problem was really, really bad shimmy/wobble. So bad I really
couldn't take my hands off even for a bit at any speed.
Rear loaded, with a little bit up front (sleeping bag). Pannier on one
side only but not a ton of weight in there. Heaviest thing was
probably the tent, packed up high.
So what am I packing wrong? I don't want to get a whole new luggage
system, nor a new bike, just want to work with what I've got and what
you can see here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/17795666300/in/photostream/lightbox/
Suggestions? Want to get it so I'm stable and can ride hands free, at
least at lower <10mph speeds. Possible, or just the wrong bike for it?
Intermediate Riv tubing, OS downtube, nothing super light, nor super
stout, basically like a Hilsen I would guess.

--
Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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[clayton bailey]

I bet it is your front rack and basket. The little front racks are a lot more wobbly than you think. Grab your basket on each side and with the wheel between your knees, rock each side up and down, and back and forth (yaw). Really flexy isn't it?  That motion is introduced into your forks and frame with steering corrections and bumps. Harmonic feed back keeps it going....The unequal weight in the back would add to it. I don't think those racks were made for baskets full of stuff, rather a stuff sack with a sleeping bag or a supporting the bottom of a stem/bar supported Randonneur bag. The shimmy on my Atlantis went away, finally, when I took off my Tubus low rider rack, Nitto M-12 mini-rack and replaced them with a Nitto Big Rack. I love my Atlantis and wouldn't give it up for a stiffer bike, ever. I just had to figure out the shimmy, and I did, for MY bike. Good luck!

Claytonious Q

 

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[Chris Chen]

I found that with the homer + mark's rack + basket load, if I didn't add a second set of struts to the rack, I'd get these harmonic movements that got really nerve wracking on decents, etc. Sort of solved it by either

1) irish strapping rack to the handlebars

2) replacing with big front rack

On my low trail chicken, with heavy loads I also get oscillating movement, but we're talking tens of pounds here, like two cases of beer territory; I often clamp the top tube with my legs and I it calms it down--in this case I can definitely see the flexing of the tubes as this happens.

cc

"I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah

[Jim Dobbins]

Slick!

-JimD

On May 29, 2015, at 7:41 AM, Jeffrey Marco <jeffrey...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here's a pic of my setup. Just in case.

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<17344851913_b47dd37401_k.jpg>

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I'm going to focus on the front rack, trying it w/ a bag cinched to it tight w/out a basket, as well as w/ no rack at all.

Just trying to get it to pleasant to ride mode!

[cyclotourist]

Update: I moved my saddle 10mm forward, and took the front basket
totally off. I know, two variables, but that's how I roll. Loaded
everything on the back, with two lightly but evenly loaded panniers, a
tent and sleeping bag on top cinched down real tight with an strap vs.
a bungie.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/18384235070/

And the result? Perfect, no wobble at around 10mph.
https://instagram.com/p/3o8qWoxHTS/
A little bit squirrely at slow speed as you can see when I was
starting out, once I got going ti was fine. Fully hands free, not just
light-touch that I would have settled for!!!

So I think I'm good for S240s, which you may recall was my goal.
Clothes, tent, bag, ready to go!
Thanks for all the advice!

[dougP]

Congrats on sorting that out.  Hope the 10 mm change doesn't cause any new problems.  I've never moved a seat more than a couple of mm at a time. 

dougP

[cyclotourist]

I think it was artificially pushed back due to the Nitto lugged post.
I put that one relatively recently, and didn't need the full amount of
setback.

But now we can't have science day!!!!

[Hugh Smitham]

What! Science day!! I love science day, where do we begin? Oh so why did you recently throw the Nitto lugged seat post on the ARer? And because it's gorgeous is not sciencency enough.

~Hugh

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[dougP]

We can still do science day, just on Hugh's bike!  And there's always the allure of the REI gear sale.  Just let me know guys if you're game to play.

dougP

[cyclotourist]

Coming down for gear sale for sure, can bring bike on principle!

[John Stowe]

I've ridden my Sam with many, many different cargo arrangements at this point, and perhaps oddly for this group, none (so far) have involved camping/touring. Yesterday I rode my Sam with 33 lb. of toddler on the back and 33lb. of groceries on the front (and 233 lb. of me in the middle... hm). So more than 40 lb. is certainly possible. I've never had a problem on my Sam with what I'd call "shimmy", but certain configurations, especially with high/forward weight over the front wheel, preclude handsfree operation and require a bit more care with how you handle the bike.

I do recognize the "like a noodle" description from the guy at Pardee on the LHT. The comments above about rack stability are absolutely right. If I load the lightly-built rear rack on my aluminum Trek with a full load of groceries, the rack will flex as I go around turns, or even just pedaling if the load is heavy, and it does feel disconcertingly like I'm riding a noodle. The much stiffer (Tubus Cosmo) rack on my Sam doesn't flinch. On the front, this problem can be much worse: my front rack is also quite sturdy (Pass&Stow), but if I'm carrying something big, even though the rack can support the weight, a steering input at the handlebars has to travel a pretty long route to get to that weight: bars -> stem -> steerer -> fork legs -> rack legs -> straps or bungies or zipties -> shifting within the bag or box or basket. Each step along that chain has its own flex and is potentially much closer to the axis of rotation than the load, which can create a delay between your steering input and the load following, and make it feel like you're steering the bike out from under your cargo (well, you are).

All of this is to say that if you're carrying something in front of the handlebars, I strongly endorse Doug's suggestion of getting the weight down close to the hub, or Chris's suggestion of strapping the load directly to the handlebars - not so much to support the weight, but to gain more direct control over the load by shortcutting that chain between the bars and the weight. I think I remember one of the Riv videos about front racks or maybe baskets included a bit about tying to the handlebars. While I've certainly had to ride with my load in mind (avoid sudden turns and huge bumps), I've never felt unstable or unsafe even with a comically large front load, as long as it was directly attached to the handlebars. 

By comically large, I mean add another box to the stack in this picture (too bad my phone ran out of battery that day) and then climb past some amused staffers inside the security perimeter at the US Capitol: https://flic.kr/p/igxQLd

[cyclotourist]

Hi John, thanks for the reply! My Costco runs pale in comparison:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/3605332794 +
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/3604518445/

But I have carried a decent amount of stuff, and never had the huge
shimmy/resonation that I did on this trip. Maybe I just never noticed
it as most of my rides are shorter?
https://www.flickr.com/groups/cargobike/pool/64942209@N00/
Only downside now is the front end feels too light, especially at slow
speed. But that is better than shimmy at speed but loosening up my
grip!
Doug things my rear rack could be a bit flexy, and that may be part of
it as well. And I may play with strapping something lightish very
tightly to the front rack (sleeping bag?) but really don't need to
worry about it too much for a S240.

[Mike Schiller]

in the "old days" ( pre-internet) the REI sales were a good thing.  But these days you are usually better off shopping for the stuff across the net.  Just have to know what you want and search weekly until it crops up. I've been a member for over 35 years but rarely buy much there anymore as they have a limited variety of most outdoor equipment compared to the WWW.  

~mike

[Hugh Smitham]

I agree with Mike. I am always disappointed with REI these days. I did notice last time I was at REI they're selling Novara cycling clothing that's not lycra...following the trend.

~Hugh

On Mon, Jun 8, 2015, 5:46 PM Mike Schiller <mikey...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

in the "old days" ( pre-internet) the REI sales were a good thing.  But these days you are usually better off shopping for the stuff across the net.  Just have to know what you want and search weekly until it crops up. I've been a member for over 35 years but rarely buy much there anymore as they have a limited variety of most outdoor equipment compared to the WWW.  

~mike

[cyclotourist]

I've had fantastic luck finding items at their sales. Then stacking
the second item 50% option if available. Bike racks, shoes, clothes,
tents, sleeping bags... a plethora of swag! Following up on the next
day 50% lowest marked sale price is even awesomer.
But I'm easily amused.

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[Hugh Smitham]

I think Mike's point isn't about price savings  but more about small boutique manufacturers who sell direct to the consumer and are pushing the envelope on design & function. As with the dearth of bicycle frame builders/companies a similar renaissance is happening in the out door gear arena. My .02.

Tailwinds,

~Hugh