Bike Industry Controlled by Grant Peterson

[Noah Deuce]

Hyperbole, sure, but the drum GP has been beating for decades (better tire clearance, too much emphasis on racing, etc.) has finally turned into a product "category" that may save the industry from itself.

Just see the latest by Guitar Ted: http://www.gravelgrindernews.com/less-about-the-rock-and-more-about-the-roll/

[Ron Mc]

now if we can just get some Retro Grouch tee shirts made up - "it's all about the roll" is a pretty good anthem - I like it better than Unracer.  

[Addison Wilhite]

I tried to express some of this sentiment in a post from not too long ago.  Inspired in part by the "vindication" tshirt:

http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/2014/07/rivendell-bicycle-workshas-vindication.html?q=grant

Addison Wilhite, M.A. 

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”

Educator: Professional Portfolio

Blogger: Reno Rambler 

Bicycle Advocate: Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee

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[Chris Lampe 2]

Nice article.   So basically we are just going back to the All-Terrain Bikes that came out of Marin County in the late 70's and early 80's.   I've done a bit of reading about the history of the MTB (as well as watching Klunkerz) and those guys (and a couple of girls) were really just doing exactly what Guitar Ted is talking about........developing bikes that could be ridden almost anywhere.  The whole downhill/extreme terrain thing came about when the racers took over.  I know that Repack was all about racing and was a huge influence but it seems those guys were doing a lot of what would now be called expedition biking.  

I've evolved to prefer just that type of bike and no longer have any interest in riding anything less than 55mm tires.  When I picked up a 1984 MTB last year, I did some research on bikes from that era and in 1985 Bicycling put out a book and they were still referring to them as ATB's, which is actually much more appropriate than "mountain bike".   

On Wednesday, November 5, 2014 11:21:18 AM UTC-6, Noah Deuce wrote:

[Joe Bunik]

Chris, all-

Re: the Marin-legacy and it's influence on bike culture, check out
Charlie Kelley's new memoir, "Fat Tire Flyer". It's a book of both
lavish production quality as well as a compelling storytelling.

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

On 11/5/14, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch

[Chris Lampe 2]

I pre-ordered mine on Amazon back when a first came available and devoured it once I got it.  You are right, I almost got the Kindle version but that would ahve been such a waste on a library quality, coffee table sized book full of illustrations and photos.  I've watched Klunkerz, read Barto's "Birth of Dirt" as well as a lot of articles but I still learned some fascinating stuff.  I also highly recommend it to anyone interested in bike history.  

[Mike Schiller]

not quite decades... but certainly for the last few years. Many Rivs from the late 90's wont fit anything larger than 32mm tires. And lest we forget many sport tourers from the 60-70's fit 35mm tires.  ....and of course those demi-balloon 40-50 mm tired bikes from France. 

as far as "gravel" riders.... the gravel races are races, full lycra kits and an emphasis on speed ... certainly not unracers.    

~mike

[Anne Paulson]

Take a look at the reports for this gravel race, the Oregon Outback:
http://theradavist.com/2014/05/bikes-faces-oregon-outback/#14

A lot of the gravel riders are riding just to ride.

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-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Mike Schiller]

Anne, If you call riding 120 miles a day for 3 days  "just riding"  yes.  Most of the riders that I know or read about were on that schedule.   I was signed up to ride that event but figuring  if I rode only 90 miles a day I would be behind most of the others and I would run into empty shelves at the few and infrequent tiny stores along the way so I decided to wait until next year. At least that was what the organizer said to discourage the 300+ riders that signed up.  I'm signing up for next year and will give it a go.

Others that I know went at a different time and did the ride over 5-6 days. More tour then the "event".

As far as the referenced site, most of those rides in the Midwest are very race oriented,  I'm sure  some participants were more laid back in their "ride" but are in the minority.

~mike

[Anne Paulson]

I'm doing the Outback this year with a friend or two. We'll go at the "just ride" pace of six days.

[Eric Platt]

While Fat Tire Flyer was my main influence into riding bikes with wider tires, the short-lived magazine "Mountain Bike - for the Adventure" put out by Hank Barlow was more my style.  It focused more on touring back roads and recreational riding, moreso than racing.  Although racing did show up in the magazine.  The first issue actually had reviews of small tents for mountain bike touring.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[John G]

I think there are increasing options for both types of rides.  Lots of folks like to challenge themselves with epic, high mileage gravel grinders, but I see plenty who are doing more laid back rambles.  My personal motto is "Half the Distance, Twice the Time, Three Times the Fun."

One type is, I suspect, more brag/news/net-worthy, but that does not mean the other is not as common.

John G 

[Montclair BobbyB]

Eric:

Indeed, Mountain Bike WAS an excellent magazine, and (having grown up on a fat-tired Schwinn Typhoon), I remember in 1985 how smitten I became with the whole idea of mountain bikes... WOW, the mere notion of riding bikes in the back-country just blew my mind.  For the entire month of June 1985 I was on a business trip in Pueblo Colorado, where I would hang out every day after work at the local bike shop talking mountain biking with the staff.  I bought a copy of Mountain Bike mag, and there was a feature article about Crested Butte and the emerging mountain biking scene.  I checked the map (hmm, just a few hours away), made hotel reservations for the weekend in Crested Butte, found a local shop to rent me a Rockhopper, and spent 2 glorious days riding the high country above CB (Schofield Pass, etc.)... I was HOOKED for life!

Now 30 years later, while my mountain biking has evolved somewhat, and I followed the industry trends for awhile (dabbling with full-suspension, aluminum, titanium, etc)  I've gone back to riding a simple, fully-rigid steel frame/fork (kinda like the original 80s bikes), not because I'm nostalgic, but because it just FEELS right.  And as for the original 80s designs, I think the industry absolutely nailed it in designing perfect workhorse all-rounders build to last... And think about it... the frames, shifters, brake levers, derailleurs etc of the 80s are still around (I actually prefer them) because they were built to LAST!  It's a shame that most of the industry (starting in the late 80s) seemed to drift away from building these super-high-quality, overbuilt bikes and components in favor of evolving designs, and (IMO) cheaper-quality... I hope we're seeing this trend reversed...

[Anton Tutter]

Right, and GP wasn't the only one preaching that sermon. There was also Jan Heine and to a lesser extent and more recently, VO.

I do dislike the term "gravel grinding", because it has connotations of effort and exertion. I prefer dirt-road riding, or gravel road riding, or even mixed terrain riding, but none of those sound particularly catchy.

Anton

[Tim Gavin]

I agree, there were some great "all-terrain" bikes built in the 80s.  I love my '88 Schwinn KOM (lugs, prestige, XT, and now drops).  It's funny how a bike that was built as an aggressive racer (and championship winner!) has been out-aggro'd by 30 years of suspension and fat tires.

I ride a head-shock Cannondale--and now my new Fatboy--for aggressive single track.  The obstacles and big hits are better handled by those newer bikes with knobby tires and wide handlebars.  

But the KOM is still a fast, playful, indestructible bike and makes a great bike for gravel.  The drop bars really changed the feel of the bike (or how I feel on it), and now it just flies on any surface.

I recently broke the original XT rear derailer, and I had to choke back a tear for losing such a trusty, original component.  But, the new cheapo Acera RD is lighter and smoother--maybe because of those huge pulleys Grant likes so much!  (That said, anyone have a XT-M730 RD around?  Or for parts?)

Old steel is still real!  With new paint, I'll be passing this bike (and my others) down to future generations.

Tim

in:

[Chris Lampe 2]

I couldn't agree more.  My tastes in bikes have evolved but I've pretty much arrived at wanting an mid-to-late 80's style All-Rounder bike.  I struggled with the idea of buying a full-fledged MTB for over a year but I finally got out and tried true single-track and discovered I did not enjoy it at all.  Pavement, dirt roads, gravel roads, fire trails and even relatively smooth but wider single-track sounds fun.  I'm more into the journey and the scenery than the high speed, high adrenaline rush of shredding. 

I think the closest thing in my price range is going to be a 26" Long Haul Trucker and that's what I plan to purchase in the Spring.  I'm thinking it will have the benefits of my Takara Highlander but with much more nimble and responsive steering.  I'm hoping it's my "perfect" bike.  I'll probably keep my Takara as a dedicated single-speed because it is just SO MUCH FUN to ride!!  

I almost forgot to ask, but do you remember if your Schwinn Typhoon had the horrendous wheel flop that many early ATB's shared and also DID many of the early 80's ATB's have that characteristic?  I might replace the Takara as a single-speed if I can find a mid-to-late 80's ATB with longer chainstays but a steeper headangle and with forward facing dropouts.  

[Joe Bunik]

It may be hearsay, but I believe the (book, not old zine/mag) FTF
describes a batch of Ritchey-built Moutainbikes that had incorrect ht
angle / rake... which were sold at discount t to their friends
@Specialized. Curiously, the first-gen batch of Japanese stumpjumpers
appeared! replicating the "error". And then everybody and their uncle
jumped into the business... and the rest as they say is history!

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

On 11/6/14, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch

[Chris Lampe 2]

Yes, that was pretty much the story I was referencing.  This seems to imply that the huge wheel flop my Takara has is a result of all the other bike companies basically copying the Stumpjumper, which itself was a flawed copy of the original Ritchey MTB's.  It really makes me wonder how the Ritchey's handled and also how that first batch of 10 Breezers handled.   Charley Kelly made it quite clear who he thinks "really" designed the Stumpjumper, despite some other guy's name being printed on the frame.  

[David Yu Greenblatt]

More than a "mountain bike" or "gravel grinder" I love the idea of an "all-terrain, go anywhere, ride all day" bike that can "do it all" (DIA):

http://www.mountainflyermagazine.com/view.php/touching-metal.html

- David G in San Diego

[Grant Petersen]

About the influence thing, with practical bikes, and so on: I'm not dumb enough or falsely humble enough to deny that Rivendell has had influence, but to put it on ME gives me too much credit. As some have pointed out, lots of what we're doing with bikes has been done before in some form--bigger tires, fitting, higher bars, fenders, baskets, bags, steel & lugs. ALL OF IT.

The whole industry got racified (like the word or not) starting in about the early '80s (road) and late '80s (mtn), and that's where everything seems to go. A few ride bikes. More ride bikes. Then somebody says I can beat that guy and another says heythen let's see you prove it, and the races happen, there's suddenly an audience (nobody's a "commute spectator"), and with the audience comes opportunity to ... market. Spectators admire racers and want to be like them to whatever extent their lives allow it, and that changes equipment.

So the high-clearance bikes and brakes of the pre-race era stopped being made, and the early RIVs used whatever brakes were available--and they were short-reach, which is limiting. Through some of our efforts Shimano reintroduced a "med reach" sidepull--still in existence--and when we wanted more clearance we went to Tektro for the Silver brake, which is now available also as a 559. That was a huge breakthrough, and you can see it and its cheaper cousins on bikes all over the US and Europe now, but my point is that all we did was push the ball, and it would have stopped without your support.

This is neat, because it has proved that NON-racers can drive things, too. The internet helps. Without the emotional support and affirmation that comes from unseen strangers, a lot of people would be timid to go this way, or wouldn't even know it was an option. When people thank us for making a bike, I always thankem back for buying it, and behind the thanks is a long speech they don't have time to hear about how we wouldn't "make" this stuff if people didn't buy it.

It's not the same as being "market-driven"--something that I hope we never are. It's more like those of you who are reading this and liking and supporting it with your purchases...are rewarding any effort we make, and that's the fuel for more of it. There are still some areas that need addressing, and we're trying to work on them. It would be so much easier if well-funded companies did it, but the stuff we like --- and, I'd say the stuff YOU like --the same stuff, I think --- is too quirky for big  people with money to understand UNTIL it gets out there, which it does thru us but because of you...so, thanks. It's funny to say "thanks," because after a longish explanation like that, adding "thanks" seems like a passive agressive way to reel in more credit as I wind this thing up, but I swear to god I'm not trying to do that. Of COURSE we-all-here-at-RIV appreciate the support, which means jobs and a living and all that--but the main point is that good ideas are easy, and what really makes them work and spread is what happens on your end. G

[Anne Paulson]

The emotional support and affirmation is so important. Most of the
people I ride with have carbon bikes, or if we're riding off-road,
they have full-suspension mountain bikes. It can be hard to be the
only one on steel, with wider tires. Without the affirmation that I'm
not the only one, I'd have a tough time saying, "No. That's not what I
want. Those narrow tires, that carbon fiber bike, those bikes that
can't carry anything, those don't fulfill my needs," when everyone
else is telling me to get a carbon fiber road bike and a suspension on
my off-road bike.

So thanks, Grant, and thanks, all Riv folks on this list, for having my back.

On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Grant Petersen
<eatbaco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> This is neat, because it has proved that NON-racers can drive things, too.
> The internet helps. Without the emotional support and affirmation that comes
> from unseen strangers, a lot of people would be timid to go this way, or
> wouldn't even know it was an option.

[Chris Chen]

Well, sure, Grant Petersen might be awww shucks but what 'bout Grant Peterson? I hear that guy's a jerk

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"I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah

[Chris Lampe 2]

LOVE Cunningham's and Potts' concept.  The execution of the concept.....not so much.  

[hsmitham]

I prefer "Mixed Terrain " my self.

-Hugh

[Chris Lampe 2]

That's actually a better descriptive term but it doesn't quite roll off the tongue like "ATB" or "MTB".  :)

[Hugh Smitham]

"MT"

-Hugh

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[Montclair BobbyB]

Agree, to me "gravel grinding" is a cringe-worthy misnomer... although I DO cringe any time I encounter loose gravel (at which point the 'grinding' part is spot-on). 

I formally refer to this kind of riding as "combo riding" (which I'm sure many of us do as part of any normal ride).  A bunch of my friends and I are planning a special combo ride next weekend from High Point (NJ) to Blairstown, on a varied mix of XC ski trail, paved road, wooded single track, dirt road, packed rail trail, and maybe even a little unplanned improv if the road/trail (on the map) no longer exists in the real world... these rides can get a bit crazy, so we've affectionately dubbed them "mutant" rides... They're my absolute favorite.

BB

[Montclair BobbyB]

Ah, the KOM... Beauty!!! Out-aggro'd?  Perhaps, but seldom out-classed!!  Keep that beauty in the family for sure.  BB   

[Montclair BobbyB]

Chris:

I didn't take my Typhoon on many actual trails (although I'm sure I would have struggled on climbs), but I sure spent lots of time on grass, jumping curbs, and skidding on gravel-dirt like nobody's business... 

Funny story, I spent a year a Univ of Dayton in 1976, and took along my trusty campus cruiser ('62 red Typhoon with white pinstriped rims and bricktread fat tires). One of my dorm buddies took a particular shining to it, and always asked to borrow it (everyone else riding their racing bikes around campus made fun of my Typhoon)... But this one guy (had a gleam in his eye when he looked at my Typhoon) and would ride it over anything that DIDN'T resemble a road, including snow mounds, stairs... you name it.  And BTW that guy's name was Maurice Tierney, who (many years later) founded Dirt Rag / Bicycle Times.  (I like to kid around and claim that I got Maurice hooked on mountain biking... oddly there's a little bit of truth to that... and we owe lots of thanks to Frank Schwinn, father of the original fat tire movement... the rest is history.)  

BB

[Chris Lampe 2]

I don't do much off-road riding either but that style of bike is fun to ride anywhere!! 

I found what is basically an engineering drawing that Joe Breeze did of Breezer #1 and it had a 67.5 degree head angle and 50mm of rake on the fork.  Given that Tom Ritchey was influenced by the Breezers, I doubt there was a huge difference in the way the Breezers and Ritcheys rode versus the Stumpjumpers and other mass produced MTB's.  

I'm finding that on my old Highlander, the key is to really use my body more and my handlebars less.  I tend to do this on any bike but I'm finding that greatly exaggerating what I do on my other, more nimble, bikes works really well on this one.  Fat tires, long wheelbase, slack angles and one gear.....LOVE IT!!  

[tarik saleh]

Hey Bobby,

That is a great story indeed. As someone who has had a passel of typhoons over the years which have seen a fair bit of off road action, and as someone who has met and ridden with Maurice a few times, and been a dirt rag subscriber since the nineties, I really appreciate it.

Thanks

Tarik

Tarik Saleh
tas at tariksaleh dot com
in los alamos, NM, USA, po box 208, 87544
http://tariksaleh.com
all sorts of bikes blog: http://tsaleh.blogspot.com

[Noah Deuce]

Sorry to Grant for misspelling his last name (if I were better at this google groups stuff I'd change the title at the top)!  And thanks for giving us the opportunity to buy more versatile bikes.

As to Mike's point about the midwest gravel races being "racy," well, yes and no.  I did Dirty Kanza on my A. Homer Hilsen two years ago...and finished in 20 hours.  I was "racing" myself, completing a personal challenge.  I think anyone who's out there in Emporia or the various other midwestern (or western) spots and isn't expecting to be in the top 50...they're doing the same sort of thing.

I recently sold my mountain-ish bike because I found I didn't like hitting single track (including driving to the trailhead).  But I love riding the backroads and gravel tracks (and even some mountain biking trails, oddly) that I can reach right from my door.

[Joe Bunik]

Chris, all,

I just stumbled over this which seems quite germane to the Marin MTB
pre-history tangent:

http://www.peterverdone.com/?p=2399

=- Joe

On 11/7/14, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch

>> BTW that guy's name was Maurice Tierney, who *(many years later)* founded
>>
>> Dirt Rag / Bicycle Times. *(I like to kid around and claim that I got

>> Maurice hooked on mountain biking... oddly there's a little bit of truth
>> to
>> that... and we owe lots of thanks to Frank Schwinn, father of the original
>>

>> fat tire movement... the rest is history.)*
>>
>> BB