Crazy-priced Riv water bottles on ebay

[Joe Broach]

Not sure I can justify drinking from my Riv bottles in this market...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVENDELL-WATER-BOTTLE-BIDON-MADE-BY-SPECIALIZED-LARGE-GREEN-/271314267002?pt t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2b972b7a

But it "was" $100!

Best,

joe "ships free, too!" broach

portland, or

[cyclotourist]

Free shipping!!!

On 11/6/13, Joe Broach <joeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure I can justify drinking from my Riv bottles in this market...
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVENDELL-WATER-BOTTLE-BIDON-MADE-BY-SPECIALIZED-LARGE-GREEN-/271314267002?pt

> t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2b972b7a<http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVENDELL-WATER-BOTTLE-BIDON-MADE-BY-SPECIALIZED-LARGE-GREEN-/271314267002?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2b972b7a>

>
> But it "was" $100!
>
> Best,
> joe "ships free, too!" broach
> portland, or
>

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Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Robert F. Harrison]

I just checked the Wayback machine and the bottle was $4 in July, 2002. Even at $72 that's 18 times the price in just 11 years. Anyone want to buy my Quickbeam, another item now unavailable, for $28,800? I paid more than the original $1600 for mine as they had no complete builds when I got mine so you are actually going to be getting a great deal - after all it's newer than that water bottle. In fact, I'll tell you what...you buy it tonight and I'll knock off 28%, just like the bottle, and give it to you for $20,736 WITH FREE SHIPPING, even if you live in CONUS (I live in Hawaii but just this once I'll ship to CONUS).

Aloha!

Bob

Robert Harrison

Honolulu, HI
rfhar...@gmail.com
statrix.com

[Joe Bernard]

HA! I have that bottle. Y'all can have it for 50 bucks. Shipped! :)

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Last package I got from Riv they stuck one in free. I haven't even used it yet.

[Ron Mc]

that seller is a famous gouger.  The one that cracked me up (when building my Moser) is a guy in Hungary was selling an inventory of Moser-engraved Modolo brake levers for $45/pair, free shipping to US.  pb*bikes bought a pair and has it listed for $325 (it was on sale last week for $292). 

[Addison Wilhite]

Funny, I just recycled my old riv bottles because I wanted all my bike bottles to be updated with the bpa/non plastic tasting kind.  

Who knew I was sitting on a goldmine.

Addison Wilhite

Educator - The Academy of Arts, Careers & Technology, Reno, Nevada (http://www.washoecountyschools.org/aact/)

Blogger - Reno Rambler (http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com)

Bicycle Advocate - Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee (http://www.rtcwashoe.com/public-transportation-22-124.html)

--

[Matthew J]

This guy is a piece of work.  

Especially frustrating (to me anyway) he has a few NOS Suntour Winner Pro Freewheel with good touring range - 14-32, 13-30, which he will part with them for a paltry THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS!  Sheesh. 

Almost 9k transactions though.  Even figuring a good amount are buys, there would appear to be quite a few suckers out there.   

On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:59:37 PM UTC-6, joe b. wrote:

[Montclair BobbyB]

These bottom-dwellers on eBay make my blood boil

Most infamous is BBC ("Budget Bike Center")... boy if that ain't an oxymoron...

But PB-Bikes is doing a pretty good job of becoming the new eBay-hole of the month... I realize it's fair game for non-regulated merchandise; you can legally price gouge... But I'd encourage you all (as I do) to send notes to these thieves telling them they're F'ing up eBay's credibility and imploring them to just get off eBay.  

This ruined my morning... 

[Deacon Patrick]

Why give them power over you? Why spend your time attempting to school them and allow them to ruin your morning? You're paying a higher price than if you bought an item from them.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

I bought an NOS Shimano 8-speed-era "Compact-C" crank from BBC..$300. Most of their stuff is overpriced, but I thought 300 was reasonable for a NIB crank I was having a hard time finding.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Ron Mc]

I shop ebay with patience.  Built two bikes in spring and summer.  Examples of good ebay deals - NOS Chorus brakes removed from a floor bike for $70.  NOS Centaur crankset, $120.  Right-side NOS Chorus shifter (which I needed the faster large drum size to work with a Chorus RD) $20.  Very specifically, I don't mind mismatching  era to have a functional bike for a good price.  But where they will get you hard is perceived collector's value on nearly venerable NOS parts.  This is exactly how pb*bikes and BBC function.  Other examples - I've seen 144 bcd TA chainrings listed on ebay for $200/ and I've bought pairs from German and UK bike shops for $45 shipped.  

[Ryan]

You should take a look at the rest of this guy's outrageous prices....Sheesh!

On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:59:37 PM UTC-6, joe b. wrote:

[hsmitham]

My Brother showed these to me a couple a days ago...my reaction at that time was non interest. It's absurd that anyone would buy one of these and I'm sure Grant would laugh about this too. Definitely didn't ruin my morning day. I could say something about free market but on second thought...

~Hugh

On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 9:59:37 PM UTC-8, joe b. wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

I won't pay $800 for them, but I really like those Dia Compe 450 centerpull brakes.  Ball bearing pivots!  SICK!

super sweet center pulls

[Leslie]

But wait!  They're on sale now;  can be yours for just $72 now! 

I'm on the verge of posting a link to http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/wb2.htm as a question to the seller, but I don't want to get eBay's hammer to come down on me for it....

[Montclair BobbyB]

I was actually being melodramatic...takes a lot more to ruin my day... But I do buy and sell on eBay, and I firmly believe in the overall fairness of the system... it really works.

And I have a low tolerance for greedy sellers and cheap tactics, and have ZERO issue pointing out to sellers when they're acting like tools.  It's a matter of principle.

Peace and Love, 

BB

[dougP]

I've got 2 or 3 of those in the translucent material.  Wonder how beasuage affects the value? 

This question of "worth" or "value" comes up regularly.  The market will provide the answer.  Don't forget we're the group laying out +/-$2k for frames that are considered by many to be dated design, material & construction.  It's all in your personal value system. 

dougP

[Christopher Chen]

I agree that worth is an artifact (it's what we make of it) but, I'm happy to pay a few thousand for a bike because of the labor that went into it, from the lugs that are investment-cast, to the hand brazing, to those people who actually wear Nitto Factory hats at an actual Nitto Factory.

And those intangibles are personal too. :) But they have real value, right? Those workers take home a wage that let them do things like take their kids to the beach, etc.

The water bottle dude is taking advantage of buyers having imperfect knowledge. Caveat emptor, but, honestly, I'd feel like a real creep if I did stuff like that.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/07/2013 02:11 PM, Christopher Chen wrote:
> I agree that worth is an artifact (it's what we make of it) but, I'm
> happy to pay a few thousand for a bike because of the labor that went
> into it, from the lugs that are investment-cast, to the hand brazing,
> to those people who actually wear Nitto Factory hats at an actual
> Nitto Factory.
>
> And those intangibles are personal too. :) But they have real value,
> right? Those workers take home a wage that let them do things like
> take their kids to the beach, etc.
>
> The water bottle dude is taking advantage of buyers having imperfect
> knowledge. Caveat emptor, but, honestly, I'd feel like a real creep if
> I did stuff like that.

There's a world of difference between paying the going rate for a
hand-made custom and paying ten times more than its new price for a used
old water bottle. That's not "imperfect knowledge," it's sheer
madness. I wouldn't care if Ernest Hemingway sucked martinis out of
that water bottle during the liberation of Paris, it's still absurd.

[Deacon Patrick]

"I wouldn't care if Ernest Hemingway sucked martinis out of that water bottle during the liberation of Paris, it's still absurd. "

In that case it would be well worth $100 for proof of the Tardis' existence. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

Steve

What if it was a famous artifact of bike racing history, like a water bottle that Cipolinni threw at a race official?

Cipo!

...no, probably not even then...

[Addison Wilhite]

But he threw so many at officials during his career that their is a glut of them on the market.  :)

Addison Wilhite

Educator - The Academy of Arts, Careers & Technology, Reno, Nevada (http://www.washoecountyschools.org/aact/)

Blogger - Reno Rambler (http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com)

Bicycle Advocate - Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee (http://www.rtcwashoe.com/public-transportation-22-124.html)

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/07/2013 03:49 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:
> "I wouldn't care if Ernest Hemingway sucked martinis out of that water
> bottle during the liberation of Paris, it's still absurd. "
>
> In that case it would be well worth $100 for proof of the Tardis'
> existence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1AnTi1X2QM

[Christopher Chen]

The water bottle fiasco is arbitrage. It happens all the time.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/07/2013 04:35 PM, Christopher Chen wrote:
> The water bottle fiasco is arbitrage. It happens all the time.

According to Wikipedia, "arbitrage is a transaction that involves no
negative cash flow at any probabilistic or temporal state and a positive
cash flow in at least one state" -- yes, definitely sounds like The
Doctor to me!
11/23/13
http://www.bbcamerica.com/doctor-who/

[Philip Williamson]

Agreed. "It's not what's selling, it's what you're buying."
http://youtu.be/looSwGHulFI

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Garth]

Yes Patrick !

     I view these things as "entertainment" as they are so over the top  !  lol  .  They have just as much right to sell whatever for whatever ... and anyone does to buy whatever for whatever !  

And yes .... the only power anyone has over One, is that which is given to them by One.

[Hugh Smitham]

Garth, Well stated.

Best,

~Hugh

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[jpp]

On time while working in a bike shop a guy brought in his barely used 10 year old bike for a tune up.   I was offered $100 to drink the content of a water bottle that the owner filled up (and did not drink) on his first and only bike ride before putting the bike away in his garage for what would end up becoming 10 years.  I passed on the offer.

[Lee Chae]

I think you all are missing an important point: It's not just a water bottle, it's a *bidon*.

Lee "Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week" in SF, CA

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Joe Broach <joeb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not sure I can justify drinking from my Riv bottles in this market...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVENDELL-WATER-BOTTLE-BIDON-MADE-BY-SPECIALIZED-LARGE-GREEN-/271314267002?pt t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2b972b7a

But it "was" $100!

Best,

joe "ships free, too!" broach

portland, or

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[Bill Lindsay]

I have a bidon and a gilet in my musette.  

[Lee Chae]

What, do you own Twitter stock or something? Bidons on Bill, everyone.

Lee

[Montclair BobbyB]

... and then you find a gem like this at a great price, once again restoring your faith ... halleluiah!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nishiki-Olympic-12-Speed-Road-Bike-Vintage-1986-One-Owner-/321241381626?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4acb7a7afa

Anyone live near San Diego???  Snatch this one up (local pickup only)

BB

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm on this one:

MUSA!

A dented top tube on a pristine bike is my favorite way to RADICALLY reduce the price of a bike.  Part that bad-boy out, selling the retro-chic Sante bits to the hipsters and I'll have a frameset for free (or less!)

[Montclair BobbyB]

Then you'll be back on eBay lookin fer vintage parts fer that frameset... Hah!
(I'm sure you already got plenny-o-stuff in inventory). Good luck, looks like you got a few chasin this one... BB

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes indeed.  It appears the requisite two are competitively bidding, now.  That'll likely price me out. 

If I wanted to set that frame up vintage, I'd leave it alone.  I've had a long time ambition to do a 650B conversion on a mid 80's MUSA Schwinn.  I've had a couple Paramounts, and was a big fan of the Peloton, Circuit, Prologue.  I think that thing could be really slick. 

[cyclotourist]

Nine hours people... set your alarm clocks!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271314267002

On 11/6/13, Joe Broach <joeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure I can justify drinking from my Riv bottles in this market...
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVENDELL-WATER-BOTTLE-BIDON-MADE-BY-SPECIALIZED-LARGE-GREEN-/271314267002?pt

> t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2b972b7a<http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVENDELL-WATER-BOTTLE-BIDON-MADE-BY-SPECIALIZED-LARGE-GREEN-/271314267002?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2b972b7a>

>
> But it "was" $100!
>
> Best,
> joe "ships free, too!" broach
> portland, or
>
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"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I often wondered about the business model of selling grossly overpriced items on eBay. Must be that suckers come along often enough to make it worth the time and cost.

[Tim McNamara]

On Dec 5, 2013, at 3:51 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I often wondered about the business model of selling grossly overpriced items on eBay. Must be that suckers come along often enough to make it worth the time and cost.

I always enjoy the auctions in which an item currently available in stores goes to the "winner" for 25% above current retail prices. D'oh! Shop victoriously!

[Montclair BobbyB]

Caveat emptor... 

Once again proving PT Barnum's Corollary... "There are also plenty o' scheisters out there..."

[Montclair BobbyB]

OK here's another one, only this dope is really stooping to new lows...  first, by asking an outrageous price for a set of 80s bullmoose bars, but then using "Vintage Rivendell" in the title AND comparing these to the Riv Bullmoose bars...  Not only breaking eBay rules, but demonstrating he has absolutely no shame whatsoever... TOOL-meter registering a 10 !!! 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nitto-Bullmoose-Handlebar-MTB-Vintage-Rivendell-/321267648890?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with this. I might try a few of my treasures at ridiculous prices.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

There was a guy awhile back selling a chunk of nasty old used cable housing off his Rivendell. I think he was more poking fun at the high level of attention Riv items receive on eBay. And he was right! There is undoubtedly a premium associated with anything Riv-related (which extends to anything Nitto, etc). Some might argue that that premium is justified for various reasons, while others shake their heads at our rationale for forking over the big bucks for Riv-ish stuff. What, for example, justifies the 300% price ratio between a Sam Hillborne and a Surly Cross-check or the even larger differential between an Atlantis and LHT? They have similar ride quality and expected service life and are made by the same nice Taiwanese workers. The main differences are aesthetic and intangible feelings about the two companies/brands.

Determining value of an item is purely subjective. I personally wouldn't give a nickel for any of the old French or Campagnolo bike parts that go for huge money on eBay. I also wouldn't buy that Riv bottle even at a fair price. But somewhere out there is a person who'll buy that stuff at those prices and be happy about it.

[Montclair BobbyB]

Don't disagree with your perspective, Jim, but this is a little different... This guy is misrepresenting what he's selling by implying it's essentially the 'original' equivalent of the Rivendell Nitto bars.  We all know that's not even close. A fair price for these would be $25-$65 (or even over $100 if someone is willing to pay it). There are plenty of these out there selling in this reasonable price range.  But this practice is simply unethical and shouldn't be tolerated.

[Scott Henry]

I don't know what really wrong with the bullmoose listing.   Maybe a word in the title that you aren't happy with (Rivendell) but I would say that its fair to use it because if you want the current version / price of the bars, that's where you are going to get them.

I think the description is pretty much spot on:

"The rare Nitto Bullmoose handlebar. Reproduced now by Rivendell. These bars are in near new condition. CrMo construction with a 22.2mm (1") stem diameter. Includes cable tensioner. Bars are original (uncut)."

They are listed at a $150 buy it now price which might be a tad high, but that's what eBay is about.  I would have figured closer to a $100.  That's why the seller has a "make offer" option listed.  I think that sometimes we forget that people don't list things on eBay so that the masses can experience the joys of cycling.  They list on eBay to make money.  Period.

Cheers,
Scott Henry
Dayton, OH

FTM-PTB

--

[Ron Mc]

worth a try, isn't it.  I have made two purchases from pb-guy - the main guy being dissed here. He has bought rare items cheap on ebay and opened up a BIN concession.  He probably lists them for free and only pays fees when they sell - if they sell at outrageous price who cares.  In my case, I needed a campy DT shifter because I discovered I needed a larger cable drum to get sufficiently fast shifting.  I bought the rear shifter dirt-cheap in auction.  PB had the left shifter and I paid more than it should have cost by itself, but the two together were in my target range.  The other item was blue REG shift lever covers, which are always cheap compared to Campy, and are important to keep my moustache barcons from marking my toptube.  

[Montclair BobbyB]

I'll concede the point, and will respectfully agree to disagree.

Peace,

BB

On Thursday, November 7, 2013 12:59:37 AM UTC-5, joe b. wrote:

Not sure I can justify drinking from my Riv bottles in this market...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RIVENDELL-WATER-BOTTLE-BIDON-MADE-BY-SPECIALIZED-LARGE-GREEN-/271314267002?pt t=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2b972b7a

[Ron Mc]

ps - I paid $12 for the blue REG lever covers, and they were easily worth that to me - 

same guy has Campy ones priced at $60, which is crazy, but if he finds someone willing to pay that price, why not?  

[Hugh Smitham]

My Dad always said Buyer beware...good advice. I think Ron and Jim make excellent points. What, for example, justifies the 300% price ratio between a Sam Hillborne and a Surly Cross-check or the even larger differential between an Atlantis and LHT? They have similar ride quality and expected service life and are made by the same nice Taiwanese workers. This is a really valid point and one that I try not to dwell on too much since I've gone deep into Rivendell...I suspect Jim the cost differential between the Hillborne & LHT and I'm no expert here would be the additional cost of lug casts on the Hillborne. 300% seems a bit high, The cost of a built CC is let's say is $990 and the Hillborne built is $2600 is more like a 38% price differential still high, the difference between the LHT lets say built is $1400 and the Atlantis built is $3900 that's 36% more expensive. For me it's a function of aesthetics period. Had I done the math early on I probably would have gone with a Surly.

Ron makes a valid point too, I needed a campy DT shifter because I discovered I needed a larger cable drum to get sufficiently fast shifting...he was in search of a difficult to find item and was willing to pay. So the PB-Guy offered a service with which Ron was able to procure a hard found item and Pb-Guy made a profit that's a win/win. Would I buy an old Riv bottle for a $100, 75, 50, 25...ah hell no...I see people selling old "Riv" readers on the bay will I buy those to feel closer to the "Riv" history/ community a resounding no! But there's someone who will be glad to purchase those, frankly I'd give em away to a friend but that's me. We live in a free market society so when we have the liberty to buy and sell as we please equalities suffer it's just how humans operate which is what Scott is commenting on.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Eistein

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[Patrick Moore]

I think it's more than that. First, Riv has to clear sufficient profit on a far smaller number of units, which means that the per-unit profit must be higher. That's why WalMart undersells your local, Mom 'n' Pop hardware or grocery or appliance or what have you store.

More: Riv makes a point of paying its local employees good money with benefits (I don't know what they do, if anything for the Taiwanese factory workers). Again, they need to clear sufficient profit to pay for all of this.

More yet! The ineffable niceness of Rivendell designs. I don't mean lugs or paint, I mean the ride quality. Even the Sam, which I owned brieflly and *did not like much* had an unladen ride quality that, at least for me, would be worth several hundred in addition to the price of an inexpensive frame.

And finally, more yet again: I daresay (can't point to the details) that even low-end Riv frames have quality pluses that Surlys or Somas or what have you don't.

I am not even offended by a $450 jacket -- which would offend me if Orvis sold it. (The only things that offend me are tweed bags and mud flaps, and that not because of the price.)

Patrick Moore, stoked in ABQ, NM from a 14 mile rolling 75" fixed gear rideabout in cold (sub 30*F!) but *not windy!!!!* ABQ, NM.

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Hugh Smitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:

What, for example, justifies the 300% price ratio between a Sam Hillborne and a Surly Cross-check or the even larger differential between an Atlantis and LHT? They have similar ride quality and expected service life and are made by the same nice Taiwanese workers.

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[Deacon Patrick]

Tweed underwear would offend me, but only if I was daft enough to wear them. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

Tweed undies would be kind of lame.  I'm still trying to get over the shock that the Atlantis has been Made in Taiwan all these years.  ;-P

[Deacon Patrick]

Tweed undies help you get over any shock, instantly.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/06/2013 05:01 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> I'm still trying to get over the shock that the Atlantis has been Made
> in Taiwan all these years

Where'd you hear that?

[Christopher Chen]

I'm pretty sure the Atlantises were made by Toyo, then Waterford. In fact, the last batch (previous) of Sams had a mixed provenance: I believe the frames were MUSA but the forks were from Taiwan.

Anyhoo.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/06/2013 06:29 PM, Christopher Chen wrote:
> I'm pretty sure the Atlantises were made by Toyo, then Waterford.

I believe that's correct.

[Patrick Moore]

Tweed breechclouts -- look for them at your nearby Rivendell Bike 'n' Hatchet!

Patrick Moore, wincing greatly in ABQ, NM.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Steve

I was merely smart-assing at Jim Thill.  He stated above that the Atlantis and the Long Haul Trucker are made by the same nice Taiwanese people.  I know that it's not true and I know that he knows that is not true.  It was either a typo, or he meant to limit that part of his comment just about the Hillborne, or was just being rhetorical.  He exaggerated the price differences, too.  

I know that his point was not to be accurate.  His point was that he can't rationalize buying a Rivendell frame, when an Surly is just as good (to him).  

[Hugh Smitham]

Steve, Jim Thill said: a Sam Hillborne and a Surly Cross-check or the even larger differential between an Atlantis and LHT? They have similar ride quality and expected service life and are made by the same nice Taiwanese workers. Just the way he structured the comment, I believe he was referring to the CC & Hillborne which are both made in Taiwan not the Atlantis though if the Atlantis was made in Taiwan it'd still be an awesome bike. And what Bill said.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Eistein

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

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[Philip Williamson]

Tweed knickers are impossible to get in a twist.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/06/2013 07:04 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> Steve
>
> I was merely smart-assing at Jim Thill. He stated above that the
> Atlantis and the Long Haul Trucker are made by the same nice Taiwanese
> people. I know that it's not true and I know that he knows that is
> not true. It was either a typo, or he meant to limit that part of his
> comment just about the Hillborne, or was just being rhetorical. He
> exaggerated the price differences, too.
>
> I know that his point was not to be accurate. His point was that he
> can't rationalize buying a Rivendell frame, when an Surly is just as
> good (to him).

Well, that's as may be; I have no opinion of the Surly frame. However,
no amount of rhetoric will justify claiming the Atlantis is made in
Taiwan, no matter what one's opinion of Taiwan, be it good or bad. If
an unintentional error, a correction is called for; if intentional, a
groveling apology is in order.

[Hugh Smitham]

Yeah don't think that last one will be forth coming.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Eistein

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[Jay in Tel Aviv]

I am fairly price sensative, and I bought a Sam Hillborn after considering the Surly CC and LHT and many other options. For me, the decision came down to confidence in fitting. I needed to make a decision without the chance to test any of the bikes I was considering. Riv's abililty to give confident sizing advice based on one easily measured parameter, PBH, was worth the difference in price. At that time, Surly offered a vague chart of frame size by rider height, and I was in between a 56 and 58. I couldn't take the chance of putting $1xxx into something that might turn out not to fit. Riv's advice was confident, clear and right.

Besides that, the Sam was the only choice in my price range that had all the features on my list.

I ended up buying a used frameset on this list and having it built by a shop in Maine which gave me incredibly reasonable prices on quite a fine build. Might not have been able to justify it otherwise.

Turns out the frameset was first built up by Jim Thill. I still have a Hiawatha Cyclery decal on the bike.

We work hard for our money. If we are lucky enough to have a bit extra to spend on a good quality bikes that's something to be thankful for l. We try to make the decisons that are right for us, given the (changing) preferences and (incomplete) information we have at the time.

No way I'm spending $$ on a water bottle though. Riv sent me one for free with my last order. Actualy not even an order, a warrantee replacement of an inexpensive item which they shipped overseas, free, without me asking. That's worth something too. Quite a lot, actually.

Jay

[Montclair BobbyB]

Nice! Hey, I just paid $20 for NOS gum brake hoods for a project, so I can appreciate paying a little extra for rare stuff.

[Peter Morgano]

My brother is a numismatic and has said for 20 years that something is only worth what someone is gonna pay for it.  Sounds too simple but is capitalism at its core.

On Dec 7, 2013 10:46 AM, "Montclair BobbyB" <montcla...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nice!  Hey, I just paid $20 for NOS gum brake hoods for a project, so I can appreciate paying a little extra for rare stuff.

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[Curtis McKenzie]

Peter,

To bad about your brother. I hear there are effective treatments.

Curtis

[Peter Morgano]

Haha, try sharing a room with someone for 10 years who rattles off coin prices all Damn night like they are the most interesting thing in the world....

[Ron Mc]

On Saturday, December 7, 2013 9:57:58 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:

My brother is a numismatic and has said for 20 years that something is only worth what someone is gonna pay for it.  Sounds too simple but is capitalism at its core.

This is exactly correct - holds true with antique fly reels, too

Any market with finite supply and growing interest will drive up prices.  Selling and buying are always two questions and answers to "what's it worth to me?"