9 to 8 speed worth it for better friction shifting?

[Michael]

While I need to replace my chain now, I was wondering if swapping out my 9 speed chain and cassette to an 8 speed chain/cassette would be a good idea for better friction-ing while I am at it.

I hear the cogs are wider apart which makes for truer shift and less auto-shifting.

My 9 speed cassette and Silver shifter does well, but I do get some auto-shifts, probably because I don't always land the chain squarely on the next cog and I am wondering if going to an 8 speed would help a bit.

Anything I need to know about this, or just swap the parts and adjust the derailer limit screws if needed in case the cassette width differs from the existing 9 speed? I am guessing the Silver shifter would be fine for 8 speed. I plan to keep the same toothcount for the biggest cog.

Any info is appreciated.

[Chris Chen]

Before you do that swap the Centeron pulley closest to the cassette with the non floating one and see if that helps your accuracy.

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[Bruce Herbitter]

When my factory issue Ultegra 9 cassette wore out on a Ram, I slapped on
a SRAM 8 speed and happily went on my way. No issues and I stll have
more gears than I ever actually use.

[Tony DeFilippo]

Michael I've had the same thought based on my 9 and 10 speed drive trains lately.  8 speed chains and cassettes are cheap! Someone pointed out during an earlier thread that the options for 8 speed cassettes are more limited but I'm not sure I'm that picky on my cog-cog relationships that I'd mind.  cheaper sounds good to me!

[Steve Palincsar]

7 is even bettter and cheaper still.

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[Matthew J]

Heck, I have  speeds on the commuter/light tourer and am building and adventure tourer (on the probably ill-conceived notion I will actually have time to use it) around the Jeff Jones Bike modified 6 speed cassette.  

Not sure if Jeff plans on making more of these cassettes.  Jeff modified regular Shimano XTR cassettes so they work on single speed hubs providing for a lower dish wheel.  Meant for 1x set ups, the six speeds are a good range for off road and loaded touring.  

[iamkeith]

I have a couple of bikes with 9 speed setups, but mostly use and prefer 7 and 8 speed.  But I do this based on a preferences for the wider, more durable chain  (that doesn't stretch and wear out as quickly as a thinner 9-speed),  and for thumbshifters which are more readily available in 7/8 speed versions, if you want quality indexed ones. 

The irony though, is that I end up running EVERYTHING in friction mode.  And in terms of that, I really don't find the 8 speed to be any better or more precise or trouble-free than the 9 speed setups at all.  The important thing is just keeping your chain clean, having good tension springs in both the derailleur and shifter (ie: not worn out), and making sure the derailleur is properly aligned and perfectly vertical.  

(It's amazing how many hangers are bent slightly, and this seems to causes a lot of ghost shifts for me.  If your hanger IS bent, don't try to straighten it yourself, and don't do it by pulling on an attached derailleur.   This is one repair that should be left to a competent, experienced bike shop, with the proper hanger-straightening tool.)

There actually ARE advantages to 9 speed, I think.   If you do switch to index shifting at some point, they're generally MORE precise than 8 speed.  Even though the tolerances are smaller, the technology was better.  And in terms of "better availability," I think that might be a reference to  better "range" options.   It's generally easier to find cassettes with larger/lower big cogs, the more gears the drivetrain has.   To me, this is pretty nice.  I don't really care about having a gazillion little increments to keep my cadence "just so," since I'm not often riding in a paceline,  but I really like having the bigger range between high and low.    (Especially as wheel diameters get bigger and  I get older)   

The 9 speed stuff will easily give you a 34 tooth cog option,  10 speed a 36, and 11 speed a 42!    (But, in addition to the frail chains that stretch prematurely and, from what I understand, can't be reused once they're removed, the 10 and 11 speed stuff has a whole different pull ratio to it,   so you can't use any of your existing shifters or derailleurs.)

YMMV.

I think the Jones cassettes, that Matthew mentioned, are based on 9 speed cassettes, so they have narrower spacing anyway.

[iamkeith]

I failed to mention another important consideration:

If you currently have 9-speed series derailleurs, you might have a bit of trouble with an 8-speed chain, because the cages are narrower and the chain is wider.   It can work, but it becomes even more fussy because the derailleur has to be positioned perfectly.

Again, YMMV

[Patrick Moore]

I don't have any problems shifting 9 (and mix-and-match cogs -- ie, non-aligned ramps -- too) off road with Silver bar end shifters. In fact, with Retrofriction dt shifters, 10 (this time stock cassettes) shifted wonderfully.

AAYMMV.

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[Patrick Moore]

I get the same miles --2K -- out of 8 and 9 speed chains, fixed or free, one or many speed (Could this be due to high torque climbing?) Also, I've had no problems adjustment or otherwise, running 8 speed chains with 9 speed derailleurs, or vice versa; at least 8 sp chains with 9 speed LX f/r derailleurs.

[Ron Mc]

Recently bought a SRAM 830 8-speed chain on ebay for $13 shipped, and there are plenty of vendors selling at that price - have run this same chain on 5, 6, and 7-speeds.  

On a couple of bikes (8 speed friction and 9-speed index) I'm running the PC-991 9-speed hollow-pin chain, bought for $38 at Outside Outfitters - but now there are ebay vendors down to $30 shipping inclusive.  

[HunqRider]

I originally set up my current bike with an 8-speed cassette and Silver friction downtube shifters.  I could never get the hang of it; it was just too fussy to try to get the proper gear with no rubbing.  Going down to 7-speed cassette would not offer much help, since 7-speed and 8-speed cogs have the same spacing.  So I switched over to an 8-speed brake/shifter combo from Shimano (brifter), and it's been smooth shifting ever since.  I used to ride an old Centurion with a 5-speed freewheel, now that setup made friction shifting easy!  But today's cassette cogs are spaced too closely for clean friction shifting, in my opinion.

[Ron Mc]

I'm shifting 7 in friction on one bike and 8 on another, and am happy with the result.  Old Grand Sport shifters on Riv bar-end pods on the 7 - this combo is flawless.  Campy Record friction with a Campy Chorus 8-speed derailleur on the other.  The Campy has long cable travel and a larger cable drum on the shifter to facilitate it - I have just one step that's not as repeatable as I would like, but close enough.  

[Steve Palincsar]

You are wrong about spacing. See sheldon on this.

HunqRider <pot...@gmail.com> wrote:

I originally set up my current bike with an 8-speed cassette and Silver friction downtube shifters.  I could never get the hang of it; it was just too fussy to try to get the proper gear with no rubbing.  Going down to 7-speed cassette would not offer much help, since 7-speed and 8-speed cogs have the same spacing.  So I switched over to an 8-speed brake/shifter combo from Shimano (brifter), and it's been smooth shifting ever since.  I used to ride an old Centurion with a 5-speed freewheel, now that setup made friction shifting easy!  But today's cassette cogs are spaced too closely for clean friction shifting, in my opinion.

[Patrick Moore]

4 versus 4.5 mm, IIRC; at any rate enough to mess up indexing of 8 using 7 speed shifters (even with the "Centeron" pulley). I personally have never tried shifting 7 with 8.

Centeron -- sounds like either a cult philosophy or else the younger brother of Darth Vader.

(Brusquely tossing the hapless guard aside, Centeron stalked to the control panel and pushed the "blow up" button ...")

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

You are wrong about spacing. See sheldon on this.

HunqRider <pot...@gmail.com> wrote:

...  7-speed and 8-speed cogs have the same spacing. 

[Kevin Mulcahy]

I switched from 8 speed friction to 10 speed indexed DA downtube shifters and haven't missed a single shift since. It's freakin' awesome.

[HunqRider]

You are right.  It appears that, at least for Shimano and SRAM cassettes, the center-to-center cog spacing is 5.0 mm in the 7-speed, vs. 4.8 mm in the 8-speed, vs 4.34 mm in the 9-speed.  Good to know.  If I ever try friction shifting again, I will pick up a 7-speed cassette.

http://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html

[Coconutbill]

That's been my conclusion.

I have the ability to use a 9-speed cassette,

 but since have gone to an 8 speed cassette with the same spacing.

[Michael]

Update:

I called RBW and they said it would definitely help to go to 8 speed cassette over the 9peed.

[Montclair BobbyB]

Since we're talking friction-shifting, I thought I'd ask again (cuz I do this periodically): Anyone have any success friction-shifting an internal-geared hub?  Yes yes, I know about potentially damaging the internals if you're not quite 'in-gear', but I'd really like to figure out a way to do this safely.   If you think about it, we get familiar enough with friction-shifting derailleurs on feel alone, such that we never really have to look down to know we've shifted into the right gear. Can we not get the same kind of 'feel' from an IG hub, even if it requires over-shifting, then settling back squarely onto the cog, so to speak???  

There are some IG hubs (like the SRAM/Sachs Spectro and Dual Drive hubs) that use a 'click box' with a push rod to 'switch' into the next gear...(which I believe is different from moving the planetary gears directly via cable movement, but I could be mistaken). The push-rod mechanism seems almost like it's (in essence) already indexed within the hub, and the cable movement via the clickbox merely causes the next shift.  If this is the case, I suppose the between-gear problem could potentially be a non-issue (than say with other types of IG hubs like the Alfine or Nexus)... You just move the cable enough to force the next shift, and then let up slightly??  Any insights from the Engineers/Intellectuals/Crazies in this group whether this makes any sense?

Maybe I should just do like the Mythbusters and go for it, risking life and limb in the interest of bicycle science...

BB

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I've friction shifted IGH hubs. It "works" sometimes.

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Not sure if this is a relevant data point, Bobby, but the Rohloff shifter on my Stealth Bomba is nothing more than a cable puller – the indexing that is provided by the Alfine shifter actually resides, for the Rohloff, inside the hub.  (Exactly HOW it is provided for inside the hub is beyond my meager technical capabilities.)  So the Rohloff, it seems to me, is doing exactly what you’re talking about the SRAM/Sachs Spectro doing.  Also, the indexing shifters (like the Alfine) can get out of adjustment, which causes them to chatter/switch between gears (typically easy to fix/adjust with the barrel adjuster on the shift cable) – so it must be the case that you could do the same thing manually via friction shifting. 

 

But why do you want to friction shift an IGH?  One of their big advantages is being able to shift while stopped (at a light, for example), and friction shifting an IGH would make it impossible to do that and know whether you’re really in gear (since, the bike being stopped, you’d have no cues from the noise or ghost shifting in the hub).  I must be missing something, but that’s my 2 cents.  

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[Evan Baird]

My buddy Will used to run friction with an Alfine hub on his 650b Vaya. Said it worked ok. Seems sketchy to me though.

[dougP]

If Jim says "works, sometimes", my sense is this is not a good idea.  Seems like the downside could be spendy.

dougP

[lungimsam]

UPDATE and report:

I swapped out the cassette for the 11-32 RBW sells, and threw on an SRAM 8 speed chain. It was really easy and fun to do. Didn't need to adjust limit screws. Just threw it on and runs fine like the old system.

How it effects drivetrain:

Chain runs fine thru my Deore derailers. I notice less drivetrain vibration now than with the old setup. Not that the old setup was any problem. It was fine to begin with.

Chain/FD rub seems to happen a little earlier in biggest and littlest cogs while in middle ring up front. But everything in between is fine. Its not an issue while riding. Just as easy derailering as it was with the old setup.

Ratios:

The ratios are very close, but not exact to what was on the bike stock.

Now have Shimano 8-speed 11-32t (11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32), stock was: SRAM 9-speed 11-34t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34)

I find I get up hills just fine in my area just as easily with the 32 as I did with the 34 cog. There is a cruising sweet spot between the 23 and 26 cog I am not getting. But I am hoping my legs will get stronger and move it to the 26 cog.

I still get auto-shifting sometimes, but I think it is happening less often with the 8-speed. Hard to tell for sure.

So, if anything, I am not any worse off than before. I like the fact that I have one less cog on the bike. Don't ask me why, as there is no real reason to feel that way.

I think it does auto shift less. But no hard count evidence for that.

Anyway, thank you all for all the advice and guidance on doing this. Thanks to Mark too and Vince at RBW for their helpful info.