NBD 2000 All Rounder

[maxcr]

Hi Everyone,

As mentioned in the CL thread, I was the lucky buyer of the AR from eBay.

Here's a bad photo from my basement last night after picking it up. I promise better photos at some point in the future:

I've always been curious about the early models, the 26 wheels on large frame with a tighter geo, canti posts and great tire clearance made it super appealing to me. The price was fair, larger ARs don't come up for sale often.

I'm really happy that my hunch was correct, it's a 59! Which is the goldilocks size for me and more appropriate than 57 or 58.

The seller said that the owner was a doctor who recently passed away and his wife has been slowly selling his bikes through a friend who used to work at their LBS (he has a couple of tandems, a Jack Taylor, a Ti Seven and others that he's going to list). The bike has the original owners name in the top tube, which is kinda cool, to keep the legacy going for him.

Now the details. The bike is an early model. Based on the serial (JS0030) and the JB in the chain stay, it's a Joe Starck /Joe Bell combo from 2000. It's also number 30. 30 what? I don't know, the 30th All-Rounder ever built? Maybe.

The metallic blue paint with the cream head tube is just amazing even after 25 years. There are some minor blemishes and chips as you would expect from a bike that has been ridden, but it's really in top condition.

I will probably ride it as is for a bit, but have plans to rebuild it. The Ultegra group with brifters isn't what I want. I will probably keep the drops (they say N Grand Randoneur which I assume is a Nitto noodle variant) but need to see if they will work for me. I also plan to swap out the drivetrain - probably put on a NOS Ritchey Logic crankset that I have or a TA Carmina that I recently acquired paired with an XTR rapid rise RD (or maybe an OM-1?). 

For tires, I'd love your thoughts. I'm thinking of RH Rat Trap Pass tires, unless you convince me that the Naches Pass or the Simworks Homage are a better option. I might want to keep it fendered, not sure... but these fenders won't clear a really wide tire.

Anyway, please offer your suggestions as I rethink this build. It won't happen until next year given my time availability and other projects in the pipeline. 

As you can see my downsizing isn't going well. I think I'm up to 11 with the latest purchase of that time capsule brown Saluki and this AR. At some point some will have to go, but I have a feeling that the AR is a keeper.

Cheers

Max in Boston

[Josh C]

Killer find, Max! Good for you. Looks great. 

[Brian Turner]

I'm quite fond of the Naches Pass tires, as that's what I've been riding on my 26" Toyo Atlantis. However, given the larger size of this AR, I'd be tempted to go with your original thought and roll with the larger volume of the Rat Trap Pass. Those will look fantastic and ride smooth and fast.

Brian

Lexington, KY

[Josh C]

I run the Rat Trap Pass on mine, and they are perfect.

[Isaak Oliansky]

Great find Max! I'd be happy if those TA cranks found there way from my shop on to that beauty :) 

I'm curious about the brakes which appear to be early Paul Motolites. Is there some sort of travel-agent like adaptor on there for the brifters? From the eBay listing there was a whole bunch of hardware on there that looked totally unfamiliar to my eyes, even relative to the early motolites. 

Great score. Enjoy. 

IO

[James Fune]

Max, what a rad find. The frame is stunning. Bet you can find some fun, matching accessories like Blue Lug's Koma light, chainring bolts. etc etc.

As for tires, I had a solid experience with RH naches pass with the endurance casing. Those were some of the best tires I've ridden. They won't be as plush as RTPs but they are smoooooth and fast-rolling. And their durability will give you peace of mind (not 1 flat using them over my 3 months of daily use). 

Now that I'm talking them up, I kind of regret selling them for continental racekings....

James--Richmond Va

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[Dave S]

Congrats on the pick up.  I saw this on ebay, saw it sold and then saw it relisted on Facebook.  I assume this facebook ad is a scam so im posting it as a warning to others.

https://www.facebook.com/share/1ADZ5d5qJR/       <---SCAM AD

[Bill S]

Rat Trap Pass or bust. Congrats on the purchase!

[JohnS]

Hello Max,

Looks like the bike will be a joy to ride. It should clean up nicely. My tire vote is also for the RH rat trap pass, EL. I have them on my '82 Stumpy which is built up as a basket bike, smooth riding. I have Ultradynamico  cava race on '90 Stumpy that I have build up as a gravel bike and the rat trap pass are way nicer.

JohnS

[Danny]

Congrats Max! I was sorely tempted by it, don't see nice large frames with 26" wheels come up often. It's the same color as my '98 AR (Starck-built as well), which looks great in the sunlight. As for your S/N the 00 indicate the year (2000) and the 30 I think is indicating that's the 30th bike built by JS for that year.

Looking forward to seeing your future build!

Danny
Madison, WI

[Patrick Moore]

Congratuations on the new AR. My beloved 1999 26” wheel fixed gear road custom was also built by Joe and painted by the other Joe in Navy metallic with cream accents.

Tires: What sort of riding will you do? For much riding on soft dirt, the Rat Trap Passes would be very nice, but IMO, one can easily install more tire than one needs and lose nimbleness in handling if not rolling efficiency, and I’m not convinced that on smooth roads narrower up to a point can’t be faster, all else equal; 28 mm Elk Passes “feel” faster to me (and of course, nimbler) than 42 mm Naches Passes.

For me, if I didn’t ride in sandy soil, and for a 26” wheel, the 42 mm Naches Pass would be the sweet spot, especially as it allows fenders where Rat Trap Passes don’t. 42 mm (especially with 26” tires — 700C rolls over obstacles better) would see me over all terrain from fine asphalt to firm gravel and sand. And I’ve ridden our ditchbank roads on tires from 22 mm to 72 mm.

To sum up: For an All Rounder, a 42 mm tire would seem to be and excellent compromise for pavement and firmer dirt riding.

Here is my “All Rounder,” a 2020 Chauncey Matthews 26” wheel 3 speed fixed (ASC) road custom improving a 2003 Curt Goodrich 26” wheel Rivendell road custom that cloned (but the tubing was too stout) the 1999 Joe Starck 26” wheel Riv Road fixed gear custom which was an improvement on my 1995 Waterford 26” wheel Riv Road custom based on the first-gen Rivendell All Rounder but with lighter tubing, road lugs, and slightly tighter angles. 42 mm (42 actual) Naches Passes under fenders.

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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[iamkeith]

Congrats, that's  a grail.  I have a '99 Joe Starck/Joe Bell in a 60cm.  I"ve run at least a half dozen tires on it.  I'm always the outlier, but I didn't like The Rat Trap Pass tires.  At least not on this bike, and  despite being able to fit them with fenders.  Wider rims than I have would definitely help but, otherwise, they were too pressure sensative.  Either squirmy or bouncy, and hard to get just right. 1.95" seems to be my golidlox size, but that limits you to Sim Works Homage. FWIW.

[Stephen Durfee]

+1 for the Naches Pass... I just put them on my AR, thanks to James in Richmond VA - as he says, smoooth and fast-rolling (thanks again, James!)  Welcome to the AR Club, Max!

[maxcr]

Thanks everyone for your messages! I'm pumped.

Regarding brakes, they are supposed to be early Paul v-brakes but tbh I'm not 100% sure. It's what the seller said and they look like them, but I never saw this version. There is that pivot at the cable entrance, which is also vertical, not like current noodles where the cable is horizontal. So, I'm not sure if this was part of the brake, optional or an aftermarket adjuster... although it looks original.Here is a bad photo:

Regarding tires, I'm going to try the Rat Trap Passes, for me 2+ has always felt better. I've had the pressure problem / rollo over feel with wide RH tires in the past, but I think it's more of an issue with the extralight casing. I'm thinking of getting standard  or endurance casings. The streets around me are in poor condition and I mean for this to be an all-rounder (pun intended) so it will see gravel and trails too... so standard or endurance?

Thanks

Max

PS. Wow, those scammers are scary!

[Ryan Fleming]

What a find...hope when my heirs sell off my bikes they find a good home like this allrounder:...and how lucky you are that it's the right size

[Huston]

Max,

I think you scored a set of Paul Crosstop brakes but am not entirely sure from the photo.

--Huston

Lexington, KY

[P W]

I’ve never seen any generation of the Crosstop brake, production or the prototype, that look like that. Neither shape of arm, nor the pivot.

So I’d be surprised if they were Paul’s.

Especially considering the era of the bike they came on.

But hey, worth asking the man himself!

P. W.

~

(917) 514-2207

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On Nov 20, 2025, at 6:31 AM, Huston <husto...@gmail.com> wrote:

Max,

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[JohnS]

Could be a version of the black ones on this page...

http://www.blackbirdsf.org/brake_obscura/paul_proto.html

[P W]

If they are they’re nothing like them!

P. W.

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(917) 514-2207

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On Nov 20, 2025, at 10:45 AM, JohnS <shar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Could be a version of the black ones on this page...

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[Max Faingezicht]

I emailed Paul but haven't heard back. Also emailed Will, he said: "Cool bike! I have no idea. Grant and Sergio, who are standing behind me, also don't know."

Seems like these are some unique brakes...

Max

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Max Faingezicht

[maxcr]

Look at this page I found, an amazing vault of early Paul catalogues: https://www.oldschoolracing.ch/archiv/paul-components/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

They look similar, but not identical to the Crosstop below, my best guess is either an earlier Crosstop version, or a prototype of the crosstop.

Max

[maxcr]

Mystery solved, from Paul Price himself "We did not make those, but I have seen them before. They were actually sort of a copy of one of ours and made in Taiwan."

Max

[P W]

I rest my vintage Paul scholar case! ;)

P. W.

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(917) 514-2207

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On Nov 20, 2025, at 11:50 AM, maxcr <max.fai...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mystery solved, from Paul Price himself "We did not make those, but I have seen them before. They were actually sort of a copy of one of ours and made in Taiwan."

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[Roberta]

Congratulations Max on the bike.   It seems like it’s a grail bike for many people.  What makes that so?  What is it about this bike?  I am truly interested and I’m looking forward to seeing more pictures and stories. 

Roberta

On Wednesday, November 19, 2025 at 11:49:12 AM UTC-5 maxcr wrote:

[Max Faingezicht]

Thanks Roberta! For me, it's a grail bike because:

- geo that takes a smaller (26) wheel even in a somewhat large (59) size

- can fit very wide tires with fenders with no issues

- short chainstays

- smaller wheels (no toe overlap, easier to get going) and a more mid-neutral trail than say my Hunqa.

- compact fun all-rounder that's bomb proof, easy to transport and that I know rides like a Riv

- Rivendell name on frame and Riv badge

On top of all that, what makes this bike special is that it was handbuilt by Joe Starck and painted by Joe Bell. Riv doesn't seem to do custom bikes anymore, or if they do it's very hard to get them, essenetialy this is unobtanium unless you luck out in the second-hand market with something that pops up and fits.

I suggest this thread for more informed comments:

https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/DDjx68Z5zSk/m/ofIQ2FZCjXcJ

Cheers

Max

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Max Faingezicht

[Roberta]

I will be reading a lot tonight!

There are a lot of points on your list that are on mine, like the shorter (for Rivendell) chain stays.I wish you so much happy riding.   

Roberta

[iamkeith]

On Thursday, November 20, 2025 at 2:41:51 PM UTC-7 Roberta wrote:

Congratulations Max on the bike.   It seems like it’s a grail bike for many people.  What makes that so?  What is it about this bike?  I am truly interested and I’m looking forward to seeing more pictures and stories. 

Roberta

I can try to answer:

1.  For long-time fans of Rivendell, this is the model that best captures the spirit of what Grant originally set out to do.  In an era of almost-universal 23mm tires and twitchy geometries and no fender or rack provisions, this was the only way to get a road bike that would accommodate fat tires, and that could be a one-bike-to-do-anything.  (Using mountain bike tires, which were all 26" at the time.)  In today's bike market, it's hard to remember how unique that actually was.

2.  As a subjective matter, some people (myself included) really like the proportions of a large frame with small wheels.  It's unexpected, if you're used to something else, but looks right if you think in terms of form-follows-function.

3.  26" wheels on a road bike are REALLY enjoyable.  They have less inertial mass (is that a real term?), so they spin-up easier and allow the bike to accellerate faster.  They also have a lower gyroscopic center of gravity,  so they corner well and feel more planted.  I can't overstate this, and I'm not alone.  Whenever I ride a different road bike and come back to my AR (or XO-1), it just feels "right" - even if another bike might fit a little better or be more relaxed or a little lighter.

4.  When bikes had shorter wheelbases, as they generally did at the time, the smaller diameter virtually eliminated toe clip overlap, without making other geometry / handlingcompromises!

4.  As a touring/travel bike, 26" wheels are (were?) ideal, because tires are available almost anywhere in the world.

5.  During this era, Rivendell frames were built-to-order, so they were essentially "custom," even as one of the semi-standard models.  They had  some of the best framebuilders in the world doing them, and they are like works of functional art.  Joe and Joe collaborated on some of the nicest ones. It's hard to appreciate without seeing them in person and side-by-side with a production model, but the perfectionism and attention to detail is beautiful.  Imagine the edge of every lug being touched in some way, filed and thinned and perfectly brazed.

[Brian Turner]

This is probably as close as I’ll ever get to owning a 26” Riv All-Rounder, and I’m totally OK with that, because all of Keith’s points about the appeal of these old 26” models is spot-on!

Brian
Lexington KY

[Danny]

Has anyone ever seen a 26" Riv AR in a frame size larger than 59cm? I know XOs topped out at 59cm, so maybe that was Grant's limit for 26" wheels? I've only seen a few 60+cm ARs and they've all been 700c.

Danny
Madison WI

[Jim in Mpls]

On Thursday, November 20, 2025 at 11:17:41 PM UTC-6 Danny wrote:

Has anyone ever seen a 26" Riv AR in a frame size larger than 59cm? I know XOs topped out at 59cm, so maybe that was Grant's limit for 26" wheels? I've only seen a few 60+cm ARs and they've all been 700c.

Yes, my 1996 61cm A/R built by Waterford!

Here it is in various configurations

 

Jim in Mpls

[Jim in Mpls]

[Jim in Mpls]

[Jim in Mpls]

And I agree- Naches Pass > Rat Trap Pass on this bike.

I felt like the RTP slowed down the handling way too much. 

Jim in Mpls

[Danny]

Wow, a 61! Thanks for sharing photos Jim, looks great in all three configurations!

Danny

Madison, WI

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[Bob]

Max, that is a beautiful bike. Congratulations. My AR is about the same size, but orange (and thus faster).

Regarding tires: I'm curious to know how much clearance you have, particularly in the rear triangle. I'm the third owner of my AR, and not sure of the vintage, exactly, but my guess is early 2000s. I run Humptulips tires, endurance casing, and love the tires, but I have only 5 mm of clearance beneath the seatstay bridge, 3 mm of clearance at the chainstays, and 4 mm of clearance at the fork blades. Part of the problem is that the rims are Cliffhangers. A different rim might give me a millimeter or two more clearance, at least horizontally, but not enough to run fenders. Likewise, Rat Trap Pass tires might buy me yet another millimeter, but, again, not enough for fenders. Were I to fender the bike, I would certainly size down to Naches Pass. (Oh, how I wish for a 47–48 mm actual-size René Herse 26-inch tire.)

I use endurance casing on my two 26-inch-wheeled bikes and I find them plush and fast.

For those who have more experience with ARs, do you have a sense of how actual clearances changed? I specify "actual" because I've combed the archived mailers, brochures, and catalogs for AR data and the best I can come up with is that stated tire clearance tightened just slightly from 2.35 inches in 1995 and 1996 publications to 2.1 inches in 1997 or 1998.

--

Bob

[J J]

This is a fantastic catch—glad you grabbed it, Max. I’m mentally tallying how many grail Rivs you’ve got at this point 😊 Your collection is stunning.

Quick question on history: am I remembering correctly that the earliest Atlantis frames were essentially All Rounders with a different name and paint? As I recall hearing or reading, the All Rounders were 26-inch across all sizes, whereas the early Atlantis models switched to 700c/29er (ISO 622) once you got to 56 or 58 cm and up. Beyond wheel size, color, name/badging, and branding, were there any other differences?

Anyway, the all rounder models — in lowercase to denote a category of Rivendell models that includes the All Rounder, Atlantis, Bombadil, Hunqapillar, Appaloosa, Hillborne, among others — are my favorite Rivendells. (Don't get me wrong, I like the other Riv models, too!)

This AR is a keeper. Congratulations!

Jim

[Patrick Moore]

Back in late 1994, AR sizing was based on that of the XO bikes; ie my size (old fistful size 60 cm c-c) was a 54, because Grant designed my first 26” wheel road custom around the AR and he made my custom a 54 c-c. IIRC, the first ARs topped out like the XOs at 59 c-c. I guess the design evolved, as it should have — I needed custom Salsa stems to get my drop bar high enough.

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[Guy Jett]

Re. tire sizing.  A very good discussion from 2013 on the Rene Herse website "How Wide a Tire Can I Run?"  Recommends a minimum of 3mm between the tire and any part of the frame or fender.  AND you must use the actual width of the tire rather than that molded into the sidewall.  Seems a good place to start.

GAJett

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[Ben Miller]

Beautiful A/R Jim! If you ever decide to sell it let me know ;) I really really wish Riv still made a 26er for us tall folk! 

Tires

I believe we are living in the Golden Age of 26" tires! So many great options to choose from! 

RTP Extra Ligre are my absolutely perfect all round/all road tire. The lightness of the tire works so well with 26" (more on that later). But if you're worried about sidewall cuts, Endurance RTP are almost as good and probably better for those looking for a bit more stability while cornering (though it's the extra weight giving you that, not the sidewall)

Humptulips are great as a light weight modern MTB tire. I've only used the Endurance casing, 'cause if you're not shredding with these, go with RTP's

Pana GK SS in 26x2.1 are also a solid all road choice. Can fit these under fenders, unlike the RTP's in my experience (I have some alu Honjo's over mine) About as light as RTP EL but less expensive. Bonus you can get them in fun colors! 

Ultradanymico Mars 26 are currently on one of my Romanceur's (mostly for the red color :) They're just a touch lighter and smaller than the Humptulips, but roll just as nice :)

Maxxis DTH 26x2.15 are a very solid budget tire. They only measure out to 2" for me on 17 mm internal rims, so a great option if you need more clearance! A bit heavy, but the still roll very nice! Great commuter/city option

Sadly, not everything is all roses. One of the best 26" tires are no longer in production: the Onza Canis 26" were probably the best modern MTB, at least before RH came out with the Humptulips. I still have a set stashed :)

And then there is a bunch of great looking/sounding tires I haven't even tried yet:

You got the entire Sim Works line up in 26": The Homage, Volummy, and Super Yummy! 

And, the very retro-cool line up from House of Looptail faithfully recreating vintage 80's 26": Snake Bites and Comp Deuces! Most excitedly for me is the Ritchey Megabite Z-Max's that are in production. Definitely want a set of those once they come out :)

Regarding WHY 26" is good

I definitely agree with Keith that '26" wheels on a road bike are REALLY enjoyable.' But I disagree with his reasoning (which, to be fair, is a commonly stated one). It's definitely not that they spin up faster (I've stated it many times and it's a hill I will die on: It takes negligible effort to spin any bike wheel up to speed*) But he is correct to identify that moment of inertia does have an important role to play. If the moment of inertia of a wheel is too high, you may find the bike too stable and it will feel as if the bike is resisting turning ("corning on rails"). As tires increase in width, they inevitably become heavier. The only way to counteract this is to make the diameter of you're wheel smaller. Personally, I find beyond 700x38mm Barlow tires to become too heavy to make cornering at speed comfortable. But an Extralight RTP? It has about the same moment of inertia and corners beautifully.** Throw on Maxxis DTH which weighs almost 200 g more per tire and cornering at speed suddenly feels uncomfortable to me. I do think which moment of inertia feels "right" to you is a personally thing and you can probably get used to a higher or lower one over time. But if a bike feels too stable or too unstable while cornering, it might be remedied just by changing tires. Now, whereas frame geometry changes can fix instability issues of having too little of a moment of inertia, you can not fix too high of stability from high moment of inertia with frame geometry, only the wheel geometry can do that. That is the magic of 26er's as road bikes. 

*The relevant quantity here is actually something called "moment of inertia per unit speed" ranges from something like 0.25 to 0.5 kg*m for almost all modern rims/tires (excluding things like Fat tires and mini velo wheels). It's *fairly* comparable to just plain old inertia (weight) and so going from the low end to the high end is like choosing to carry one full water bottle or not, in terms of acceleration. 

**It's actually lower and some might feel that RTP EL's are too unstable (I suspect some of them are on this very post!). They are actually pretty low in terms of moment of inertia and those folks might prefer the additional stability of the weight of the Endurance casing. (The endurance casing still isn't stiff enough to actually support the sidewall, so you are not getting stability from that) I prefer the EL's because it also overcomes some of the additional stability provided by the increased pneumatic trail of the tire. 

Ben in SF wishing he had a 61 cm A/R

[Mike Gillespie]

Congratulations on the n+1 Max! This thread has sent me back down memory lane as I recall ordering my AR back around 2000. At that time the Atlantis was just coming out.  I had a phone conversation with Grant and he told me the Atlantis would be nearly as good as the AR, but more attention to detail, better tubing and custom sizing with the Riv. Also, I’d be helping to support a local craftsman/artisan. How could I resist?

At that time, Rivs were increasingly custom so larger frames were available as 700c wheel size. Grant was moving more so in that direction as well. It’s interesting to read the introduction of the Atlantis as a new model in the Riv Reader #18.

https://notfine.com/rivendell/RR18.pdf Page 11-14. There’s a brief discussion of wheel size that’s interesting. Also interesting is a couple of mentions about ordering custom Rivendells on pages 15 and 38.  As an aside, there’s an interesting article written by Jan Heinie about using Mafac center pulls on his Riv.  Lots of cool history in such a short 25 year period.
Mike

[Patrick Moore]

Ben: Your analysis of the benefits of a 26” wheel for handling raises much interesting information. As someone who rides 175 gram 24 1/2” tall 27/28 mm road tires (559 Elk Passes) as well as 540 gram 29”+ 54 mm wide semi-knobbies (622 Thunderburts), I also notice more difference in handling than in acceleration, tho’ I can’t say that I notice nothing when comparing acceleration. But shorter wheels are certainly more nimble even comparing tires of comparable width — recall comparing my brother’s 26” mountain bike against my Fargo; the Fargo easily kept up on tight but flat singletrack, but it certainly “felt" less nimble when riding the bikes back to back. This is even true in road widths: the same bike with 175 gram 27 mm Elk Passes felt nimbler than with 300 gram 42 mm Naches Passes; in fact, that particular bike felt easier to pedal, too with the EPs. But I’ll leave that for another thread. And, for that matter, the 26” wheel Riv custom with the extralight EPs feels nimbler than the Roadeo with 700C 32 mm extralight Stamped Passes, which itself feels nimbler than the Ram I owned 12 or 15 years ago.

Note that Grant designed the 26” wheel road customs to accommodate the much shorter and lighter wheels, and did a wonderful job of it. They’re not twitchy at all.

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[Bob]

My apologies; I should have been more clear. I wasn't asking about recommended tire widths. Rather, I was asking Max what the clearance in the rear triangle of his AR is, and then more broadly what other AR owners can say about the changes in clearances over the history of the AR model.

As best I can tell, from the early RBW publications and from owners' photos and descriptions in various places online, there are ARs out there with clearances enough for Rat Trap Pass tires and fenders, and there are ARs out there (like mine) that definitely do not. I wonder how much of this variation arose from changes in specifications over the course of the model's life, and how much can be attributed to owner choices in what seems to have been a semi-custom program.

--

Bob

[Joe Bernard]

Hi Bob, 

My extremely vague memory of these matters is tire clearance increased as the decade rolled on, cuminating in the introduction of Atlantis in 1999. 

Joe Bernard