mechanical issues

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

2 annoying mechanical issues on my Sam Hillborne:

 

1. Creaking - sometimes more, sometimes less, but dramatic enough to be easily heard by someone riding next to me. Tried so far - tightening chain ring bolts; cleaning, oiling and finaly replacing the chain; playing with FD trim until cross-eyed, check BB for play. Next steps - replace pedals, replace BB even though no play, ...?
2. Rear shifting - indexed bar end shifter was skipping my favorite cog (15T), so yesterday I replaced the cassette, thinking I had waited too long to replaced the chain a few weeks ago. Now it's skipping all over in indexed mode, both up and down. Tightening the cable (also recently replaced) didn't help either so I switched to friction, which is of course fine. I have nothing against friction, but I don't like it when things don't work. In this case I'm commuting in traffic with a 40-26 in front, so for this terrain it's essentially a 1X9 and I want indexing.

I don't have access to a Rivish LBS anymore, and no one I know around here has ever seen a bar end shifters. So it's just you guys.

 

Thanks,

Jay 

[Curtis McKenzie]

Chain length?

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[ted]

Jay,

If shifting and gears work fine in friction mode but not indexed, the indexing must not be putting the derailleur in the proper location at the clicks. To get it correct adjust the barrel adjuster at the rear derailleur. You want the chain centered on the cog. Most likely if you look closely you will see it is off to one side of the other. You can also lift the rear wheel and turn the cranks to see if the chain is catching on the next larger cog but not fully shifting to it. If that is going on try turning the barrel adjuster in (clockwise) a quarter of 1/8th turn at t time till it stops (assuming rd is top normal and not rapid rise).

On the creaking, that can be hard to track down. If you are sure its coming from the crank / bb area, you might try pulling the cranks and reinstalling with a bit of grease on the bb tapers and bolts. Doing the same with the pedals may help. Others here will likely give you many other things to try. Chasing down creaks can be very exasperating. My sympathies for your plight, and bets of luck getting it silenced.

[Edwin W]

My creaks have mostly been saddle related, and I have heard lots of good solutions on this list.

Good luck!

Edwin

[Dave Johnston]

I have had mysterious creaking coming from the saddle and the cable housing before. The housing only creaked when I was turning the bars though.

-Dave J

[Kelly]

Noises suck.. Chased one all morning once only to find here was still ice from the last ride I'm the insulated water bottle.
Creak instead of knock.. Seat post / saddle - handlebars / stem ... Noise only when pedaling or when climbing when?

Shifting .. I do this ..
Loosen cable completely and make sure it's on the little cog and smooth... Or adjust limit screw - with rapid rise this would be the large cog.
Note the lever would be all the way down in indexed mode. Then with needle nose pliers I pull the cable tight and secure it. Most times it just works from there. I manged to mess it up by pulling to tight or not tight enough in that the shift cable is obviously loose or I pull so hard the derailler moves. I then us cable adjuster to fine time the setup.
Note I generally screw the adjuster all the way in on new cables since they stretch so much at first. After that I leave it about center.

If it still doesn't shift make sure or better yet check first that the cable is moving smoothly in the housing. Even new it's possible to miss a kink on the end or something.

Good luck

Kelly

[Michael]

Hi Jay,

 

 Creaking:

1.Are you using a sprung saddle?

Mine started creaking and I couldn't tell where it was coming from on the bike. Bounce in your saddle a few times and see if that is what it is.

2.Snug brake lever mounting bolts.

3.Thoroughly grease stem shaft and wedge and reinsert into head tube.

4.Snug up every bolt you can find on the bike including water bottle mounting bolts, rack bolts, etc. Re-tighten wheel quick releases. Snug pedals.

5. Try this bike noise troubleshooting page for ideas: http://www.jimlangley.net/wrench/keepitquiet.html

[iamkeith]

Excuse sloppy post from phone keyboard: ive, a couple of times found squeek at bb due to bb mounting threads - particularly the kind with sepparate retainer cups like phil. Remove, clean threads, re-install with teflon plumbing tape , instead of lock-tite.

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Thanks everyone,

I will try some of these fine suggestions this weekend.
Until then I will rediscover friction and headphones.

Jay

[hsmitham]

+1 on the saddle creak. 

~Hugh

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

A few more details in case anyone is still reading this:

 

Creaking happens under hard pedalling. I feel it through my feet, so it really seems like it's coming from the crank area. It started a few weeks after I replaced chain rings (from Sugino triple to 40-26-bashguard) and the chain ring bolts were a bit loose when I tightened them. Honestly, I don't remember if I greased the cranks before reinstalling them. I usually do, but I had them off for cleaning not too much before so maybe I figured they were good enough. I'll pull, clean, regrease and reinstall them this weekend.

 

Shifting - With the old cassette, Shimano 11-34, the only issue I noticed while riding was failure to shift up from 18T to 15T. I had to shift twice, to 13T and them down again if I wanted that gear. It had been fine before that for a long time until I replaced the chain. New and old chains were both Shimano. With the new SRAM 11-34 cassette, on the stand, it is skipping cogs going in both directions. I would think that the cable could be either too loose or too tight, not both. I will try the adjustment procedure described here and hope nothing is bent. Derailler is LX from Jensen's ($30 NOS if anyone needs). I wouldn't expect any compatability issues, but maybe that's part of it?

 

Jay

[Ron Mc]

of course you never grease the bolt threads, but if you don't grease the square taper, you may not get real torque on your crank arms and this would be a significant source of creak - you also have the potential of a crank arm becoming lose or falling off, which is no good.  

[David Johnston]

If you changed cassette types (from Shimano to SRAM) the cogs may not
end up in the exact same position, so you may have to adjust your
shift points. Also one of the non shimano cassettes (IRD I think)
comes with a thin spacer that goes against the spoke end of the
cassette, with out it in place the cogs may be loose on the freehub
shell even with the lockring tightened to spec.

Anyway I would expect you will have to adjust your indexing with any
cassette change, and make sure to wiggle the cogs to see if they are
loose.

-Dave J

>>> 1. Creaking - sometimes more, sometimes less, but dramatic enough to

>>> be easily heard by someone riding next to me. Tried so far -
>>> tightening
>>> chain ring bolts; cleaning, oiling and finaly replacing the chain;
>>> playing
>>> with FD trim until cross-eyed, check BB for play. Next steps - replace
>>>
>>> pedals, replace BB even though no play, ...?

>>> 2. Rear shifting - indexed bar end shifter was skipping my favorite

>>> cog (15T), so yesterday I replaced the cassette, thinking I had waited
>>> too
>>> long to replaced the chain a few weeks ago. Now it's skipping all over
>>> in
>>> indexed mode, both up and down. Tightening the cable (also recently
>>> replaced) didn't help either so I switched to friction, which is of
>>> course
>>> fine. I have nothing against friction, but I don't like it when things
>>>
>>> don't work. In this case I'm commuting in traffic with a 40-26 in
>>> front, so
>>> for this terrain it's essentially a 1X9 and I want indexing.
>>>
>>> I don't have access to a Rivish LBS anymore, and no one I know around
>>> here has ever seen a bar end shifters. So it's just you guys.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jay
>>>
>>
>

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[Ron Mc]

very good point - make sure you have the correct torque on your freehub and cassette stack.  My experience comparing Campy and Shimano shifters is that Campy needs to be really tight on the cable clamp and then tightened further with the housing extension nut.  Shimano is the opposite, working perfectly with just a gentle snug.  

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Ron -

You sure you don't have this backwards? 

Was trained to _always_  grease bolt threads. And mechanic sensei's were always divided on the greasing of the square taper.  Many feel that since it's a press fit and not likely to bind, you can apply too much torque to the bolts and swage the square taper open to the point where it will bottom out.  I have seen this, but the cranks were very, very cheap.

As far as the general creak - I've written this before in a few different lists over the years, but, in descending order:
- Remove/regrease/reinstall pedals
- Remove/regrease/reinstall seat post
- Remove/regrease/reinstall crank arms
- Remove/regrease/reinstall bottom bracket
- Remove/regrease/reinstall stem & handlebars

On the ghost shifting while indexing:
Since it works in friction mode, it is likely not a cog/chain issue. 
Since it is shifting rather than skipping, it is likely an alignment issue.
Since it is doing it in one specific gear, I'd tend to suspect either a bent der. hanger or debris in the loop near the RD.  You can eyeball the RD hanger from the back of the bike (easier if you slacken the cable and remove the RD).
Since you have the cable slack, you can slide the rear housing forward and sluice cleaner through the housing.  Then a light or no lube.  Then replace. 
(I probably would just replace the cable...)

hope that helps,

- Jim

[Hugh Smitham]

Jay I think I know the problem. As you must of removed the crank when you worked on the chain-rings you need to torque the crank bolt  "And for all you torque-spec types: 320-390 inch pounds" from the riv site,

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/cr1.htm

I think Ron already mentioned this. I had this identical issue. My torque wrench is in Ft/Lbs or Newton meters. I converted the above torque to 37 Newton and no more creaking. Those noises are frustrating.

Best,

~Hugh

--

[Hugh Smitham]

I of course am assuming you have a Sugino crank.

Best,

~Hugh

[Ron Mc]

Jim, if you grease threads before you torque you stand to tension them to failure.  Torque as a strain gage depends on friction.  In applications where they do grease the threads, like steam turbine covers, they use ultrasonics to measure the length to which they're stretching the bolt.  

Regards

[Perry]

Grease everything. Then grease it again. Only this time, put your heart into it because you didn't use enough the first time. That's my philosophy, and dang! It works for me the same way Paleo works for Patrick. ;)

Then there's this:

To grease or not to grease? | Off The Beaten Path
"So for our René Herse cranks, we recommend that you lightly grease the crank spindle. Also grease the treads of the bolts. Then tighten the bolts to 25 Nm. That is it. If you like, you can check after your first ride that the bolts are tight. Thereafter, leave them alone."

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/to-grease-or-not-to-grease/

• Perry

[Ron Mc]

Campagnolo Crankset Owners Manual

[Ron Mc]

one more quote

Note: Relevant formulea for calculating Power thread torques and efficiencies are derived on webpage Power Screw Equations

F p = Desired bolt Preload (N) p = Thread pitch (m) d m = Mean diameter of thread (m) μ = Coefficient of Thread friction μ c = Coefficient of collar friction α is the thread angle / 2 (α = 30 o for standard metric threads & α = 29 o/2 for acme threads). r c = Collar friction radius (m)

Note: Friction values are found on this site on the coefficient of friction page..Coefficient of Friction 

It can be proved that the majority of the torque is required to overcome the thread and collar friction forces (approx 90%).   Therefore any error in the value of the friction coefficient will have a large variation on the bolt tensile load.   The above formula is in essence not a lot more accurate than the approximate formulae above.

"Any error in the value of the friction coefficient will have a large variation on the bolt tensile load."

  http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Preloading.html

[Patrick Moore]

This is a "holy war" subject that goes back generations. IIRC, the mighty Jobst (pause reverentially. Moment of silence. Mblmblmblmbl. Amen) urges us to grease. Phil, too, IIRC. At any rate, I've dutifully greased for decades and never had a crank arm come loose or otherwise go astray.

Here is the holy write (mediated by Sheldon!):

http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/installing-cranks.html

• Perry

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[Bruce Herbitter]

saddle tension bolt if a leather saddle, or saddle rails creaking in the seat post clamp?

[jimD]

Which causes me to wonder, is there grease in ketchup?

-JimD (more confused than ever.)

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

I used beeswax on the chain ring bolts.

[Bobish]

The general premise of that post (as I read it) is to test Campagnolo's recommendations. True, the main concern is grease application on the spindle, but bolt threads are discussed. So yeah, I'm aware of this.

• Perry

On Nov 25, 2013, at 5:59 PM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

Campagnolo Crankset Owners Manual

On Monday, November 25, 2013 1:56:00 PM UTC-6, Perry wrote:

Grease everything. Then grease it again. Only this time, put your heart into it because you didn't use enough the first time. That's my philosophy, and dang! It works for me the same way Paleo works for Patrick. ;)

Then there's this:

To grease or not to grease? | Off The Beaten Path
"So for our René Herse cranks, we recommend that you lightly grease the crank spindle. Also grease the treads of the bolts. Then tighten the bolts to 25 Nm. That is it. If you like, you can check after your first ride that the bolts are tight. Thereafter, leave them alone."

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/to-grease-or-not-to-grease/

• Perry

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[Ron Mc]

this is really easy.  If you're putting together anything on your bike, you want to be easy to take apart, lube the threads - beeswax is great.  If you have aluminum or zinc threads involved on either side, use lube to prevent galling and/or dissimilar metal corrosion.  Especially in the case of crank bolts, your threads are steel against steel.  The purpose of specified torque is to stretch the bolts to a specified preload.  As I showed in the equation above, friction is the greatest error in the preload and torque equation.  If you grease the threads and honk on your torque wrench, your torque value will result in an excessive preload, greater than the manufacturer's specification, potentially breaking the bolt or stripping the axle threads.  This is the exact reason for Campagnolo's warning.  

[Ron Mc]

another possible outcome of overloading the crank bolts because of lubricating them is breaking the crank itself at the corners of the square taper.  

[Bobish]

Makes sense and I can't say I know anything about it other than repeating old practices, so I won't/can't argue. Maybe I'll try some beeswax on the threads next time. As for the equation, it means nothing me to me. May as well say "cats wearing pants." So I'll take your word for it. ;)

• Perry

[Ron Mc]

Perry, the purpose of the equation was to get to the quote at the end:  "Any error in the value of the friction coefficient will have a large variation on the bolt tensile load."