Sam Hillborne- why the switch from cantilever/center pulls?

[Tim Tetrault]

Anyone know the story behind the shift from cantilevers to side pulls on the Sam? I have a side-pull Sam now and look at the canti-posts on older Sams with envy. 

Thanks, as always. Apologies if this is an old topic- I gave a cursory search and couldn't find a previous post matching the topic.

Tim in Seattle

[sameness]

Pure guesswork, but I'd say 

1) Sidepulls are less fiddly to set up and adjust for the average user

B) Riv had a big hand in Tektro's bringing long reach dual pivots to the market, so they probably have something of a vested interest in specing them far and wide

All pure conjecture, opinions of the author only, etc.

Jeff Hagedorn

Warragul, VIC Australia

[justin...@gmail.com]

Every thing you add on to a tube costs money in materials and time. I imagine that plus the overall larger familiarity people have with side pulls does it.

-J

[Eric Platt]

Would agree with Justin on the cost.  Also would add the studs have to be accurately placed which takes more time.  Which again ends up costing more money.  

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 6:49 AM, <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Every thing you add on to a tube costs money in materials and time. I imagine that plus the overall larger familiarity people have with side pulls does it.

-J

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[Bruce Herbitter]

And most people prefer calipers.  In the mainstream, cantis are for "cyclocross" and "touring"

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

There's no downside. The Tektro 559 aka Silver sidepulls are wonderful brakes.

[jimD]

+1 on the Silver side pulls.

[Kellie Stapleton]

I look at them with envy too. I was disappointed when I actually went to see the Hillborne in person. I guess the pictures I had looked at were all older models. On the other hand, I've had my Sam for a year now and haven't been on another bike! Though I did just change from a moustache bar to albatross which necessitated a change in brake levers. Don't know why but my brakes work incredibly better with the new ones.

[Garth]

I wouldn't want a Sam with canti myself , having used cantis for decades .   They're not necessary .  Canti's are a real mixed bag too, as there is no standard in how far apart the bosses are, nor can there be. Every frame is different.   So not every canti is going to work well with every frame.  This, from my own experience.  Even the bosses themselves don't have a precise standard, there are many manufacturers. I've had some that are a little longer or shorter than others from frame to frame. Bottom line is to have a variety of canti brakes on hand when putting together a bike :)

No need to envy that !!! 

[Eric Daume]

I would much prefer it with canti posts, so I can use V brakes. The perfect combination of power, modulation, tire clearance, and cost.

--

[Mike Schiller]

the downside is spongy feeling, lack of power and limited clearance for big tires.  The upside is cost of the frame.  Count me as a canti lover!

~mike

Carlsbad ca.

[James Warren]

I've been lucky: Silver brakes on Hillborne with mountain levers. Never has felt spongy in 4 years of use.

I like both brake styles, but the unbelievable ease of bike assembly when sidepulls are used with mountain levers has become a big plus for me. This possibility has been around for decades, obviously, but Grant's addition of being able to do this and still use very large tires is something that I think makes the Hillborne an amazing bike. I have Rock and Road 43's in there. (With cantis, you could do that plus fender, so there's one facet of the tradeoff!)

- Jim W.

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- 700x55

[Tim Tetrault]

If the OP-er could ask a follow up- is the realistic on the Tektro side pulls enough so that if I threw an aggressive 700x32 cross tire on there I could enter a few CX races? (Not trying to win- I'd take fenders, rack, and bags off of course)

What do y'all think?

On Saturday, January 11, 2014 9:48:02 PM UTC-8, Tim Tetrault wrote:

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Are you talking about brake clearance for a knibblie cross tire?  I rode a few CX races on the Hilsen, which had the original long-reach Silvers.  The newer Tektros have a bit more arc on some models, allowing for an even rounder profile. 

There was absolutely no issue with tire clearance.

However, I will say that a kickstand plate is not the most advantageous in muddy conditions.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/92238055@N00/3285966758

- Jim

cyclofiend.com

[Tim Tetrault]

That's an image I will remember. Thanks Jim. I'm trying to live in a one-bike world, but it's not easy to cover a lot of different experiences. 

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[Joe Bernard]

The original concept of the AHH (which the Sam is based on) was "Country Bike", a road bike which could easily accept fat tires and fenders, and handle the occasional trail ride. People tend to associate lighter/simpler sidepull calipers with "road bike", and I think these bicycles are in that genre. It also differentiates the Sam more from the canti-equipped Atlantis, Hunqapillar and Bombadil, all of which have more of a touring/dirt personality. I don't know if this is actually why the change was made..just a guess. It's also possible the early Sam's were always intended to have sidepulls, but the builder messed up. Remember Canti-Roms?

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

On Saturday, January 11, 2014 9:48:02 PM UTC-8, Tim Tetrault wrote:

[Mike Schiller]

I really doubt it, I had an orange 2nd batch Sam with canti's which was a nice bike. Both the 1st and 2nd batches were canti equipped. The Sam has more room for bigger tires  than the Homer and was intended ( my recollection) as a cross between Homer and Atlantis so canti's make more sense.  I think cost issues forced 

the change.  

`mike

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, although I have generally eschewed (which, being translated, signifieth, generally, "chewed and spit out instead of being swallowed") cantis after 2 decades of annoyance, which may be due solely to my own mechanical incompetence, I found the IRD cantis that came on the floor model Sam Hill (set up by the super-talented elves at Rivendell, of course) to be the best brakes I've used in my entire life, bar none at all. As powerful as any dual pivot - hell, as powerful as any V-brake or mechanical disk set up by Vaughn, and a lot better in modulation and feel. Just smoooooth, incrementally and progressively more "power" as you pulled the levers, until the wheels locked, and that with not very much power required.

But those, again, were set up by elves.

I've never heard that the different cantilever brake models work better when matched with certain frames. I'm not denying, just questioning. True? False?

Also, I've heard that long-reach (ie, +57 mm) calipers aren't as powerful (or, at least, require more hand force for a given power) as ones with shorter arms -- ie, they flex). True? False?

On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wouldn't want a Sam with canti myself , having used cantis for decades .   They're not necessary .  Canti's are a real mixed bag too, as there is no standard in how far apart the bosses are, nor can there be. Every frame is different.   So not every canti is going to work well with every frame.  This, from my own experience.  Even the bosses themselves don't have a precise standard, there are many manufacturers. I've had some that are a little longer or shorter than others from frame to frame. Bottom line is to have a variety of canti brakes on hand when putting together a bike :)

No need to envy that !!! 

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[Patrick Moore]

I agree that cantis make more technical, if not economic, sense on this type of bike.

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[Patrick Moore]

One more aside about brakes: Road BB7s -- even with 180 mm rotors, no-flecks housing, organic pads, professional setup -- were literally as bad as the properly set up rod brakes I used as a boy in India. At least, on my erstwhile Monocog 29er, they were actually that bad.

The mtb-model BB7s -- used with Tektro V-brake drop bar levers -- are a different thing altogether.

[jimD]

I guess I'm not discriminating enough. I've never regarded the Silvers on my Riv Custom

as 'spongy'.  

On my Tournesol I've got some fancy, pricy, Paul component centerpulls, mounted on

centerpull posts, those brakes may be a bit more 'powerful' seeming than the Silvers. They don't impress me as being all that much better.

In my world the Silvers are the value proposition when it comes to the balance of cost, performance, and lack of hassle.

Maybe I'm a brake agnostic.

-JimD 

[Garth]

On Sunday, January 12, 2014 5:16:29 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

I've never heard that the different cantilever brake models work better when matched with certain frames. I'm not denying, just questioning. True? False?

Sure it's True !   My two latest frames, one could be called a classic Franklin sport/touring frame that takes cantis , and the Bombadil cannot use just any canti.  There are large differences in how far the mounts are apart, namely due to the intended tire widths.  So the fork blades and seat stays are different widths... very different ! 

For example , the Sun Tour XC Pro "low profile" canti works perfectly for the Franklin, but on the Bombadil the XC Pro's once I get the pads close enough , it diminishes the efficiency of the geometry of that design, rendering it weakly inefficient(poor yoke angle).  Using vintage wider profile Shimano cantis , all works great.  But because of slight variations of the mounts I cannot explain, I had to use 2 different Shimano models for the front and rear. Canti mounts are supposed to be "standard", but it's a rather imprecise one ! 

So yeah ..... I'd love to be able to use some side pulls ! 

[Patrick Moore]

Of course, the varying width between mounting posts. No science here, but it does make sense in an intooitive kind of way.

At any rate, the IRDs with Salmons on the Sam were a brake High Point in my experience. Wonderful brakes!

Theselooklikethem.

http://store.biketouringnews.com/ird-cafam-cantilever-brake/

On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sure it's True !   My two latest frames, one could be called a classic Franklin sport/touring frame that takes cantis , and the Bombadil cannot use just any canti.  There are large differences in how far the mounts are apart, namely due to the intended tire widths.  So the fork blades and seat stays are different widths... very different ! 

For example , the Sun Tour XC Pro "low profile" canti works perfectly for the Franklin, but on the Bombadil the XC Pro's once I get the pads close enough , it diminishes the efficiency of the geometry of that design, rendering it weakly inefficient(poor yoke angle).  Using vintage wider profile Shimano cantis , all works great.  

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Mike S in Carlsbad: awhile back we had an orange Sam with sidepulls. It fit 700x45 Panaracer Fire Cross knobbies with room to spare.