About to start experimenting with centerpulls

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm going to start playing around a little bit with centerpull brakes on at least one of my caliper brake equipped bikes.  I bought a pair of the snazzy Gran Compe 610s and the tiny optional front rack from Velo Orange.  They will be replacing Tektro R539 on my "budget Roadeo".  

Riv Content:  I am no longer capable of taking a bike seriously if it doesn't have a front rack on it, thanks to Riv.  I'm obsessed with getting more clearance for fenders and chubby tires for safety, thanks to Riv.  

Anyway, can anyone share about changing straight from modern dual pivot caliper brakes to centerpulls and liking them better?  I'm interested to hear about it.  

FYI, that little rack is TINY.  Check it out next to the Nitto Mini Front:

[Patrick Moore]

I've used center pulls, single pivots, and dual pivots, not to mention cantis and vs, and haven't found centerpulls any better, or much worse, than any of the others. No magic, IME. In fact, I found the old Dura Aces (probably re-inscribed Tourneys) better than the Mafac Racers, but neither as powerful as a good modern Nashbar single pivot; all with salmon pads. (I had been running a Dura Ace cp on the front of the old Motobecane grocery fixie, as the single brake, but I found that, with heavy loads and a steep hill, the DA -- pulled by a modern Shimano aero lever -- would retard to a point in the lever travel and then retard no further despite pulling harder. The replacement dual pivot did retard more as you pulled further on the lever.) Of course, on the one hand, the relative merits of the CPs might have been due to hangars and housing; OTOH, the Nashbar SP stopped better with the same housing and required no hangar.

I jumped on the front rack wagon for a brief while with an old TA rack of which the VO is probably a copy. I had one on my errand Riv for a while to supplement a rear rack, but it didn't really do me any good, since it was big enough only to support a rack bag that was about the size of a Banana Bag, and I preferred to have my front end unencumbered unless the encumbrance could carry a more worthwhile load, whereas the rear rack carried all that I needed beyond the large saddle wedge.

BTW, I have the early Ruthworks small bag-for small front rack available for sale or trade if anyone is interested.

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Albuquerque, NM

[Bill Lindsay]

While I agree this rack is a TA copy, let me be clear.  I bought it from VO, but it's not a VO rack.  It is the Dia Compe Gran Compe ENE front rack.  When you Patrick were playing around with your front rack in 2011, a few listers here posted their pictures of this Grand Compe ENE rack broken at the tangs.  The thread is there for all to see in the archives.  The most efficient keyword to search on is the classic Patrick Mooresque: "Innit", as in "Innit the cutest little rack....".  I'm going to use this rack to support my Loyal Designs Handlebar bag, with a decaleur.  

[Jim M.]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 11:48:45 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

I've used center pulls, single pivots, and dual pivots, not to mention cantis and vs, and haven't found centerpulls any better, or much worse, than any of the others.

I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific situations (like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or needing a nutted front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a good single or dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and DiaCompe, and they all seem about the same for stopping power.

jim m
wc ca

[RJM]

I honestly think linear pulls or cantilever are the best brakes out there.......

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks for the replies.  I think I'm with all of you:  "I've used all kinds and they all work fine.  None are dramatically better or worse".  At least for everything but centerpulls.  I've never done a nice centerpull setup.  I understand being forced into using cheapie centerpulls for various reasons.  What I was curiously looking for was something more specific.  For example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver Sidepulls, and I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls.  I'd love to hear somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and installed Paul Racers and the result was XXXX".  Or, I've seen many Roadeos with Tektro 539s, and a few with Paul Racer M.  I wanted to see if anybody specifically swapped from dual pivot to a quality centerpull and thought it changed anything.  That's what I'm doing, and I'll certainly share what my observations are.  

Anyway, I did it partially out of curiosity about centerpulls.  I also did it because I wanted a cleanly installed small front rack.  I hated running P-clamps with a Marks rack on this bike.  I also did it because I think it will open up the fender area.  I also did it because I was/am inspired by Sumehra's custom mixte with braze on centerpull brakes.  If I love centerpulls, then braze on centerpulls on a custom might make it onto my bucket list.  

1.  If braking is a wash, and I gain the use of a proper handlebar bag, and improve fender clearance, that's a big win

2.  If braking performance is better, and the rack breaks under my handlebar bag, and fender clearance is worse, then I won't know what to do

3.  If braking performance is worse, and the rack breaks, then I'll whine like a baby

I'm investing a lot in making this setup really as nice as I can.  Paul Funky Monkey hangers front and rear are rock solid.  These $170 Gran Compe brakes are beefy CNC, not unlike Pauls.  The pads come with salmon inserts and accept nice koolstop replacement inserts.  Good cables and housing, nice rims.  Everything should work great.  

[Patrick Moore]

Linear pulls are certainly powerful and easy to set up, at least, as long as they are not the cheap ones, which are horrible to set up since the cheap springs mean that they never stay put; I've seen at least on pair, on a WalMart "bike", that literally could not be adjusted properly -- the springs could not hold enough tension -- they were plastic, not elastic. But IME they don't modulate as well as the best cantilevers or side or center pulls, also properly set up. The best brakes in the world, bar none -- and I've used all -- were the IRD cantis on the Sam HIll, set up by Riv. Powerful, felt just right, and modulated better than anything else I've used. OTOH, I prefer disks for off road use, as much to spare my rims as for any other reason -- an issue if you use expensive, boutique rims as I do.

The worst brakes, OTOH, were also cantis, and I don't know why they were so bad: Mafac cantis, both the single and the tandem (longer arms) version. Useless with salmon pads, modern levers, good hangars, and after both I and a shop played around with straddles and pad adjustment. Well, the front road BB7 was just as bad.

On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 2:34 PM, RJM <crccp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I honestly think linear pulls or cantilever are the best brakes out there.......

[jinxed]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 2:55:29 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:

What I was curiously looking for was something more specific.  For example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver Sidepulls, and I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls.  I'd love to hear somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and installed Paul Racers and the result was XXXX".  

jim m
wc ca

I respond to this portion. I made this exact swap from Silver side pulls to Pauls center pulls. When I built my Hilsen, I used the Silvers I already had from a Bleriot. They set up SUPER easy, look great and I used up to a 42 width knobbie (IRC XC Slick 700x42) that I could still squeeze past the pads with little effort. I only "upgraded" to the Pauls thinking that with all the hype and expense, they HAD to be more powerful and would open wider. I tinkered with those things more than any other brake I've ever used and never got them to feel as good as the Silvers, and if anything they opened up less as I had to wiggle the same tire set up pretty good to get it through. They certainly weren't horrible, look kind of industrially cool, and have the USA factor included in the price, but based purely on performance and set up I would choose the Silvers no question.

[Bill Lindsay]

THAT was exactly what I was looking for.  Thanks for that.  I'm about to make a similar maneuver and I'm really interested to see what my results are.  Thank you thank you. 

[justin...@gmail.com]

Interestingly I had the exact opposite experience. Paul Racers stop me much better than Silvers.

-J

[Brian Campbell]

+1. I replaced a set of Paul Racers for a set of Silver sidepulls. Glad I did. 

[Mike Schiller]

those are the bolted on version, the brazed on Paul Racers are the best rim brake I've ever used for both modulation and stopping power.  There is some tire size max,about 42 mm, to get the tire to fit past the pads.  They are a bit clunky in the looks dept., especially the anodized version. I've got Neo-retro canti's on my new bike, and they stop very well but the modulation is not nearly as good as the brazed-on Racers.  Silvers are not even close to the brazed on version.

~mike

[Michael]

Have used both Racers and Tektro R559 brakes.

Paul's:
 were hard to get centered for me. So many points of adjustment possible on them. Hard to get cables attached. I was new to center pulls though. Got easier each time I messed with them. They were great with salmon pads.

R559's:
 install and set up waaaay easier for me.  I like them much better. More user friendly for an un-mechanic like me.

Both stop  and feel just as good to my unrefined hands.
I am not a brake connoisseur.

 

Both my Pauls and Tektros were/are allen bolt ons.

[Perry]

jim wrote:
>>>
I'll echo Patrick's response. I've used centerpulls for specific situations (like needing cheap longer reach for a 650b conversion, or needing a nutted front brake) but they aren't any better at stopping than a good single or dual pivot sidepull. I've used various Weinman, Mafac, and DiaCompe, and they all seem about the same for stopping power.
<<<

Me three.

• Perry

[Bill Lindsay]

That's enough variety of reviews to tell me that I might like centerpulls better and I might not.  Classic YMMV situation.  Haha.  Maybe I'll get it done this weekend.  

I overhauled these Gran Compe 610s to familiarize myself with all the pieces, lube all the pivots, bushings and threads.  They were bone dry everywhere (tsk tsk).  My Paul Funky Monkey hangers just arrived in the mail, so now it's full speed ahead.  

[rob markwardt]

I had Silvers and non-aero levers on my Bleriot when I first got it.  The braking was so bad  it was scary....I changed BOTH levers and brakes. Went to the aero Cane Creek/Tektro levers and Dia-Compe center-pulls and they've been on the bike the last six years.  As a science teacher I know my investigation sucks...change one variable!...however, I now have centerpulls on 4 bikes and the levers on 3 and I'm quite happy. To add to the muck...my best stopping bike is my Riv custom with newish Shimano 105 sidepulls.  

Rob "all my bikes stop" Markwardt 

[Montclair BobbyB]

"Experimenting with Centerpulls, you say?"...  Careful, some regard centerpulls as a "gateway" brake... leading to heavier stuff, like drum and eventually hydraulic brakes...  Don't go there, friend... I'm living it, and have been trying to get clean for years... it's a dark place. 

Just say NO... 

(TGIF, I'm losing it..)

[Peter Morgano]

Haha. In all seriousness though I always found centerpulls the most aesthetically pleasing, being a C&V guy for a while but also found no real difference in stopping. They did give a bit more clearance to run Hetres on my AHH, however.

[RoadieRyan]

Bill, my first reaction to the diacompe rack was also - it's so tiny it's cute. Ended up using it as a basket support on my sister-in-laws bike.

I have been refurbishing old 10 speeds for the last few years and have found center pulls as good or better than side pulls.

Ryan S

[brian tester]

Howdy folks. Speaking as a Rivendell Bicycle Works mechanic, I can offer a couple of tidbits about brake stuff that may help out here:

It's one thing to compare brakes to brakes -- Silver sidepulls to Paul Racers, for an easy example -- but it's another thing to compare brake *set-ups* from bike to bike. There are variables! The brake itself is part of a system that consists of cables, housing, ferrules, possibly straddle cable and yoke position, brake pads and their toe-in or lack thereof, brake levers, hangers, frame braze-ons, and, finally, brakes. I could mention tires, too, since these are essentially huge brake pads that provide friction against the ground. Too easy, then, to look at the brake as the only component of note in stopping a bike.

So, it's worth it to look at housing quality, length, and curvature, and to look at the finishing on the ends of the housing -- is it flat? Flattened on a grinder or file, or is it all sharp and burr-covered? It matters! Is the housing the jet-lubed variety? Is it dry as a desert gulch in there? Is there a funny kink in the housing, or is it too short or too long? These things will directly effect braking feel. Maybe way more than the brakes themselves. 

It's worth noting that if a brake didn't work at all, we would all know it, it would probably no longer be sold, or at least the maker would be a disgrace. I have encountered bikes with Paul Racers that frankly frightened me in their reluctance to slow down my forward momentum. Same with cantilevers, which can be tricky to set up right even for mechanics. I also have experienced, on my own bike, humble  sidepulls that will safely and reliably slow/stop on trails that I have no business riding on.

If something is *the best*, then all the other things are some degree of *worst*. What if, however, there is merely a range of acceptable/workable, and it's our responsibility to make the most of the setup?

Sometimes I think disc brakes are taking off merely because the successful setup element is more or less simplified to the point of disappearing. Set up any brake just right, and the bike *will* stop. Then, it's up to us to learn how best to use the brakes.

Anyway, just my two or three cents. Give a call in to RBW if you want to discuss this some more.

Best,

Brian

[Bill Lindsay]

Brian nailed it.  

[Patrick Moore]

Spoken like a true professional. Someone should write up a "Rivendell's Way To Canti/V/Centerpull/Single Pivot/Dual Pivot Happiness." The IRDs on the Sam that Riv set up were the best brakes I've used, bar none, and I've used most of them.

Speak more to us about housing: quality, lubrication (what about the plastic lined stuff?), even ends, ferrules, lengths, bends, and of cables themselves -- gauge, what have you. I will sit quietly and listen.

I've never had much luck setting up cantis for drop bar levers, so I can stand to learn much there, having tried with a vast variety of makes and models -- so much so that I've avoided cantis on my bikes. 

Patrick Moore, who has been procrastinating in replacing the disk pads on his Fargo, which he means nonetheless to ride this afternoon in ABQ, NM.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Small update.  I ended up with the wrong size rear funky monkey.  "Of course it's 28.6mm, just like the front derailer clamp!"  Nope.  Externally butted Seat Tube, means I needed 30.0mm.  Bummer.  

Anyway I did get the front set up.  I didn't ride around much with only a front brake, but it seems pretty good.  I love the clearance.  I am easily able to QR the brake to get the wheel out.  Also, I now have a front rack.  All good points.  

BUT......I hate how the arms tilt inward from the pivots.  The brake pads cannot hit flush on the brake track.  BOO!  This means I need a wider rim.  I have 19mm wide Mavic Open Pros now, but things would be a lot more "squared-up" with a 23 or 24mm rim.  The way I prefer wide tires, this needed to happen anyway.  Time to consider the Velocity A23 in 700c or the Pacenti SL23 in 700c.  

[Matthew J]

No experience with bolt on center pulls.  If you ever go custom, I highly recommend considering braze on center pulls.  I've had bikes with braze on Mafac Raids and Paul Racers and currently have a bike with Paul Racer Ms.  All three stopped with alacrity, had wide range modulation, and were easy to maintain.  

Would not say braze on center pulls are better than dual pivot side pulls or mini-vees, both of which I've found to do an excellent job.  Braze on center pulls do have a very integrated appearance and serve well.

[BSWP]

FYI, Paul Centerpulls on sale at RBW, in the web special area. $295 for F&R pair.

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/prm.htm

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

I particularly like the super integrated result when your frame builder uses Paul-specific posts, so there is one fewer layer of tolerance between bushing sleeves.  That may very well be the direction I go, eventually

[Johan Larsson]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 8:30:30 PM UTC+2, Bill Lindsay wrote:

/.../

Anyway, can anyone share about changing straight from modern dual pivot caliper brakes to centerpulls and liking them better?  I'm interested to hear about it.  

/.../

Well, I liked Weinmann 610's better than the original (single pivot) brakes on my XO-1 because they had much better clearance for fenders. 40 mm Berthoud fenders worked well with those centerpull brakes while the original brakes only could handle 30 mm fenders. The Weinmann/Dia Compe 610 brakes are as powerful as I could wish for, no problems at all.

Johan,
Sweden

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks for that.  

I finished up with the initial setup.  Here's the before:

And here's after:

Copious pictures on my flickr, as usual:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/sets/72157636508980195/

Anyway the switch was from Tektro 559s mid-reach dual pivots to Gran Compe 610 centerpulls.  Also we added the Gran Compe Ciclo ENE mini front rack.  That enabled me to move over a Berthoud decaleur from another bike for a proper handlebar bag setup with my Loyal Designs front bag.  Extra clearance earned provoked me to try out a pair of 700x35 Pasela tires that I had in the tire box.  I of course still have the 700x30 Challenge Eroicas that came off the bike and will likely use them again soon.  Finally, just for fun, I swapped Flite saddles between bikes to convert from Black to Blue, and I did a new Blue Newbaums wrap job to tie it together.

I only rode up and down my 12% hill a few times, but first impression is the centerpulls are substantially more powerful, and the modulation seems excellent.  The harder you grab the more they stop.  So far, positive reviews.  Time will tell.  

[Brian Campbell]

Thanks for the write up. I was wondering if you think the different brake pad compounds were a factor as well?

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes I think brake pad compound is a factor.  

[Philip Williamson]

Wow. I liked the bike 'before,' but 'after' is visually a lot lighter. Prettier.

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Bill Lindsay]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: complements from the Tinker carry weight.  I fish for complements fairly often, but when I hook the Tinker, then I know I've got something.  

[Philip Williamson]

*blush*

[BSWP]

I'm considering Racer braze-on long reach brakes on a new frame... can anyone else with experience of these brakes comment on maximum tire width that will easily slip past the brake pads, when the straddle cable is removed, so wheels can be removed/installed without deflating tires? Thanks.

- Andrew, Berkeley

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:58:04 PM UTC-7, Mike Schiller wrote:

those are the bolted on version, the brazed on Paul Racers are the best rim brake I've ever used for both modulation and stopping power.  There is some tire size max, about 42 mm, to get the tire to fit past the pads.  They are a bit clunky in the looks dept., especially the anodized version. I've got Neo-retro canti's on my new bike, and they stop very well but the modulation is not nearly as good as the brazed-on Racers.  Silvers are not even close to the brazed on version.

~mike

[Richard L.]

I switched from Tektro long reach dual pivots to Paul's bolt-on center pulls.  The Tektro stock pads were replaced with Kool-Stop salmon pads.  I think the center pulls were more powerful and modulated better.  Maybe the wider 650b x 32 tires have something to do with the difference? 

[Dan McNamara]

I know that a 42 Hetre won't clear. I'll throw a 38 and a 34-ish tire in to check next week. Bike is in the shop right now getting the steerer tube cut. 

Dan

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[rob markwardt]

I've got 32s on my bike with Paul braze-ons and there is probably another 5mm of space...might fit 38s.

[Matthew J]

This guy had to narrow the fenders under Paul Racers but those appear to be Hetres. https://www.flickr.com/photos/32306142@N07/4669102184/in/faves-edscoble/

[Johan Larsson]

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:18:19 PM UTC+2, Matthew J wrote:

This guy had to narrow the fenders under Paul Racers but those appear to be Hetres.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/32306142@N07/4669102184/in/faves-edscoble/

That looks like a narrower tire than the Hetre.

Johan Larsson,
Sweden

[rob markwardt]

Hey that looks familiar ...it's my bike! Pics are from previous owner. Tires are 700c and there is plenty of clearance for fenders under the brakes. The cut he was referring to is down by the chain stays

[Matthew J]

Ahh.  Small world.  

In any event, I know I've seen Paul Racers with Hetres online.  Here is the correct bike: http://ruedatropical.com/2009/12/terraferma-randonneur-ready-for-paint/

[Matthew J]

Bottom line is you probably need to go braze on custom to get them to work.

[BSWP]

Thanks, all, especially for the links to beautiful frames.

I'm deducing that 42mm tires will fit past the pads on Paul Racers. Anyone run wider tires than that with those brakes? They're probably not a first choice for mountain bike setups... 38 is pretty wide for me, but I could consider 42-45 for some situations.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[BSWP]

And while poring over options for Paul Racers, I stumbled across an incredibly beautiful and carefully-worked fork crown that integrated mounts for Racers, built by Jordan Hufnagel, in 2010. Wow! Have a look:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hufnagelcycles/5230919936/

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Johan Larsson]

I thought you already had a clear answer? https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/DJ2b7CzKL3g/p4PqYPvgRWgJ

"danmc

Aug 31

I know that a 42 Hetre won't clear. I'll throw a 38 and a 34-ish tire in to check next week. Bike is in the shop right now getting the steerer tube cut. 

Dan
"

Johan Larsson,
Sweden

[Michael Hechmer]

Bill,  a lot depends on what size tires you are using.  I converted my Ram from Ultegra side pulls to Paul's Racer Ms and was very happy with the outcome.  Setup and maintenance is a similar amount of effort, Paul's get a slight nod for power and modulation, but a big plus for fender clearance.  I have studded Racers on the Tandem.  They work well and seem to require little attention, but they are limited to about a 38 mm tire, unless it is deflated.  And they have only 55 mm of internal space specced for a fender, although I have gotten them to work with 60 mm VO fenders. 

You'll get lots of subjective feedback but Paul's CPs have beefier arms which have to be more rigid than a side pull and the brakes will last for ever.  Paul sells pivots and springs independently so it is easy to rebuild a brake.

My favorite brake, hands down, is Paul's Neo Retros.  They excel in every way.  About the only negative I can think of is that like all cantis they get dirty.

Michael

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:12:00 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:

THAT was exactly what I was looking for.  Thanks for that.  I'm about to make a similar maneuver and I'm really interested to see what my results are.  Thank you thank you. 

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 4:25:24 PM UTC-7, jinxed wrote:

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 2:55:29 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:

What I was curiously looking for was something more specific.  For example, I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Silver Sidepulls, and I've seen many A Homer Hilsens using Paul Racer centerpulls.  I'd love to hear somebody say "I took off the Silver Sidepulls and installed Paul Racers and the result was XXXX".  

jim m
wc ca

I respond to this portion. I made this exact swap from Silver side pulls to Pauls center pulls. When I built my Hilsen, I used the Silvers I already had from a Bleriot. They set up SUPER easy, look great and I used up to a 42 width knobbie (IRC XC Slick 700x42) that I could still squeeze past the pads with little effort. I only "upgraded" to the Pauls thinking that with all the hype and expense, they HAD to be more powerful and would open wider. I tinkered with those things more than any other brake I've ever used and never got them to feel as good as the Silvers, and if anything they opened up less as I had to wiggle the same tire set up pretty good to get it through. They certainly weren't horrible, look kind of industrially cool, and have the USA factor included in the price, but based purely on performance and set up I would choose the Silvers no question.

[James P]

The updated brakes and rack looks good, and thank you for bringing up the "brake debate"

As Brian eloquently pointed out - brakes are a system, and adjusting or changing components within a system will make it perform differently.

I guess I am curious about what you're trying to achieve - is it maximum stopping force or most linear modulation for lever inches travelled, or something different altogether ?  I heard an apocryphal story that Campy single-pivots were purposely designed with less than optimal stopping force, to allow for better scrubbing of speed without locking up - great in a peloton, but perhaps less so when needing to emergency stop.

Also, Kool-stops are great, but I found a company claiming to have resurrected the original '80s Scott-Mathauser brake pad formula - here's the link for those that are interested. http://www.yokozunausa.com/brakepadsshoes.html

Cheerio

J.

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks for that reply Michael.  As you can see, though, I made that switch almost a year ago.  The post of mine you replied to is dated 10/9/2013.  :-)

I guess coming in on a year does allow me to give an update.  The backstory is that this is my road bike.  A Black Mountain Cycles, which is functionally similar to a Roadeo.  It takes 700c wheels 130mm rear spacing and Tektro 539 brakes.  I had it built with 539s and got the itch to try centerpulls.  Motivators included:

1.  Jan Heine goes on and on how centerpulls are the best

2.  It looked like I could get a tiny bit more clearance for 35 or even 38mm tires without fenders, and could run Jack Browns with fenders more easily

3.  I wanted to run a front rack for a handlebar bag with no P-clamps

So I bought the high end Dia Compe 610s.  LINK.  I also bought the really cute front rack that you can get.  LINK2.  I splurged and bought Paul Funky Monkey hangers for front and back.  

I'd give the experiment a "B" grade.  The brakes work.  They even work well.  The initial setup was a little bit goofy.  They came with standard road cartridge brakepads, and the geometry of the system expects a lot wider rim than the Open Pros I was using.  The initial setup looked horrible for that reason, like everything was folded in on itself.  I couldn't stand the look, so I switched out to the metal holders you get with CR720 cantilevers.  Those allow you to run huge spacers on the inboard side to square up the arms relative to my skinny rims.  That looked a lot better and functioned a lot better.  That was my only significant setup issue.  I did completely disassemble both brake calipers and lube them up.  They were bone dry everywhere.  

I did seem to get some more clearance.  I have run the bike with true 35mm Paselas.  

The tiny little rack is quite wimpy.  Supporting my handlebar bag (with a Berthoud Decaleur) the rack started to noticeably sag after some bumpy trail riding.  The tab on the back is flimsy and bent.  I gave the rack a lift with one hand and it bent back.  It's wimpy.  I don't really use the rack at all anymore, but it is still installed.  I usually go without a handlebar bag, but sometimes run my BOXY bag, and might go all the way back to my F15 setup.  

In the meanwhile, I also did a restoration on a 1970s bike with Dia Compe centerpulls, and those brakes blow me away with how powerful they are.  So, I like the centerpull idea.  

[Aaron Young]

Hi Bill, 

Just doing some research reading about brakes and came across your update.  

You mention that the DC 610's work, even work well.  Then you say the 1970's restoration with Dia Compes are really powerful.  What do you think is the difference here?  I would guess that both Dia Compe brake sets are pretty similar and should have a similar feel, but the description sounds like they are quite different.  Is it the levers that are different?  Just the way they are set up?  I'm just curious what your thoughts are on this.

Thanks,

Aaron Young

The Dalles, OR

--

[Bill Lindsay]

Aaron, I'd just defer back to Brian's post. It's a system. Everything matters. Rims brakepads levers cables housing. Especially the placement of the bridges. Everything.

[Aaron Young]

So a particular brake may work well on a certain bike, but put the same brake on another frame and you may get different results.  Got it.

Thanks,

Aaron

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aaron, I'd just defer back to Brian's post.  It's a system.  Everything matters.  Rims brakepads levers cables housing.  Especially the placement of the bridges.  Everything.

[BSWP]

It hit me this morning (thanks, Peet's!) that with brazed-on centerpulls (like the Paul Racers), one actually has wide latitude (or longitude, heh) over how far apart the brazed-on centerpull posts/bosses/pivots are placed. Thus, working with a frame builder, one can fine-tune the brakes for the width of tire and rim one expects to ride with. Naturally, the pivots need careful mitering/filing to fit cleanly on the forks and seat stays, but they don't have to be exactly 78 mm apart, for example.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[BSWP]

A fiend just forwarded me the link to the upcoming Compass RAID brakes:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/compass-centerpull-brakes/

I continue to dream and scheme for a new custom frame, and know that it will have centerpulls. I had been set on the Pauls, but the new Compass brakes look interesting and enticing. Forged arms! But it also seems that pad adjustment will be trickier than on the Pauls. Anyone know, or willing to share, more information on availability?

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

They aren't available yet.  They look really nice, but be prepared for MASSIVE sticker shock.  Every time Jan comments on them, he points out how much cheaper it is to CNC parts (Paul) and how much cheaper generic stainless hardware is (Paul), and how much nicer the brake pad holders are than Mafac originals.  People are reading the tea leaves and bracing for them being MUCH more expensive that Paul Racers.  Over $500 for one bike's worth would not surprise me at all.  For a spare-no-expense custom, you might as well go all-out, though.  

[Eric Norris]

Seems to me you could get *almost* the same performance at a much lower cost by sourcing some original Mafac Raids. Spend a little money to have them professionally polished, and Voila!

The Mafac Racers on my Motobecane are nearly as pretty, but they’re about the most powerful brakes I own (including sidepulls,  V brakes, and more modern centerpulls).

--Eric N
campyo...@me.com
www.CampyOnly.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
Blog: http://CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 

[Eric Norris]

Oops. Meant to say that the Mafac Racers are *not* nearly as pretty.

--Eric N
campyo...@me.com
www.CampyOnly.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
Blog: http://CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 

[Patrick Moore]

Someone on the boblist (I think) traded or gave me a pair of "Dura Ace" (so pantographed; Olof Stroh says Shimano sold these under the DA moniker for 6 months in 1976; but in re = Tourney) centerpulls that he had manually polished. Those were both exquisitely beautiful (until the unprotected aluminum oxidized) and more powerful than any Racer or Weinmann I've used -- possibly slightly shorter arms. But IME, good calipers (even single pivot) worked just as well -- all instances with salmon Kool Stops (but centerpulls all mounted with single bolt bracket). I replaced the DA centerpull on the Motobecane now owned by Eric after coming down a steep hill with 30 lb of groceries, hauling on the lever, and finding that, after a certain point, lever travel meant no augmentation of retardation. The 57 mm reach single pivot replacement worked better.

[Patrick Moore]

Whoops, sorry, the replacement for the Dura Ace/Tourney front centerpull was a dual pivot, 57 mm reach Shimano; salmon pads.

--

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*************************************

[I]n exploring the physical universe man has made no attempt to explore himself. Much of what goes by the name of pleasure is simply an effort to destroy consciousness. If one started by asking, what is man? what are his needs? how can he best express himself? one would discover that merely having the power to avoid work and live one’s life from birth to death in electric light and to the tune of tinned music is not a reason for doing so.”

                                                                                    -- George Orwell, Pleasure Spots

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not money, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not money, it profiteth me nothing. Money suffereth long, and it is kind; money envieth not; money vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. . . . And now abideth faith, hope, money, these three; but the greatest of these is money. 

                                                                               -- George Orwell, Keep The Apidistra Flying

[Michael Hechmer]

Ok, I'm rather late to this discussion but after 35 years of riding I have set up and used a lot of brakes.  The two worst brakes I have ever had were shimano (550?) cantis and an early, mid 80's diacompe canti. Both hard to set up and poor stopping with shimano levers.  My favorite have been the Paul's neo-retros.  They have been on a number of my bikes.  I have sold the bikes but never the brakes.  I have had a lot of other brakes I really liked.  Campy Grand Sport, which I have had for 25years and are still on my winter bike.  Chorus & Ultegra side pulls. Great power, good modulation, easy set up, but all needing regular attention.  I have the posted racers on the tandem. and RacerM's on my Ram.

It's hard for me to compare the power of the Racers with the retros since the loaded tandem weighs 400+ lbs.  However they do a pretty good job both in stopping the tandem and in modulation.  My only complaint against them has been the opening.  They are specked for 55mm fenders and 38 mm inflated tires, although I have managed to get the VO 60mm fenders under them.  The Racer Ms on the Ram are fabulous for a fendered bike with mid size tires on them.  When all is said and done, though the Neo-Retros overcome all of these problems.  I have swapped out the pads for shortys and so they open up as wide as I need them.  They never interfere with any fender.  They are incredibly powerful and when matched with tectro levers offer great modulation.  My only complaint against cantis is because they sit below the fenders, they get very dirty.

When I bought my first set of Paul's I had a hard time setting them up.  Once I learned how to work with these brakes I have found them the easiest brakes I own to set up and they hold that set up wonderfully.  If anyone has a pair and is struggling with set up I would suggest studying their instructions  http://www.paulcomp.com/shared/instructions/neoretro.pdf ) carefully and be patient with yourself.  After you have worked with them a bit a light will go off and it will be very easy.  If you have worked with other "modern" Cantis or CPs, its like switching from Windows to OSX.  Confusion followed by, "Oh that's how you do it, simple."

Good brakes can be a lifetime investment.  I like that Paul sells all the wear parts individually and at reasonable prices.  I expect these brakes to outlive me by many, many years.

Michael

[Matthew J]

> They aren't available yet.

They are now.  $325.00 for brakes and bolts.  $469.00 with the rack.  So $500.00 a bit off. 

http://www.compasscycle.com/brakesCmCpl.html

[Leslie]

Just saw that....     

[Bill Lindsay]

That is a very pleasant surprise.  I'm very happy to be wrong.  I hope Compass makes their reasonable and fair margins at that price.  The rack is fantastic. 

[David Spranger]

Building a custom bike is pure fantasy for me, but those brakes just entered that fantasy.

David

Charlotte, NC

[Matthew J]

You aren't that wrong.  Still pricey.  But likely worth it on the right custom build.

Wonder how long before we see a custom Riv with a set?  An otherwise straight up 650B Hilsen with Compass braze on brakes?!?

[BSWP]

And just like that, they're announced as available

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/12/04/compass-centerpull-brakes-are-here/

Prices compare not-too-unfavorably to the Pauls. Very tempting.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I'm not a huge flag-waver, but Pauls are made in Chico, CA. 

I know Taiwanese folks have families and kids and hobbies and mortgages, but I guess I'd rather give my money to Mr. Price and support their local economy.

[Bill Lindsay]

Let your flag fly!  It's always fun to think of reasons to put money in Mr Price's register.  

Compass brakes are partially made in the USA, but farther away from me than Chico  ;-) .  Also, there is no frame in existence that takes both the Compass brakes and Paul Racers* (they use different posts).  So the only people that really have a choice between those two products are people who are about to specify a custom frame for 42mm tires and want braze-on centerpull brakes.  That's not a lot of people.  For me, the integrated rack (made by non-Americans at Nitto) is super attractive.  The fact I can buy some super swank hardware to bling out my Mafac Racers is kind of fun, too.

Bill-who-loves-to-buy-American-Lindsay  

*p.s.  OK, I suppose that if you had a frame that you wanted to run center-mount center-pull brakes, you would have the choice between centermount Paul Racers as option A, and as option B you could buy Mafac Raid yokes on Ebay, and buy Compass brakes and cobble together your own set up.  Option C would be to buy Mafac Raids on Ebay and upgrade the hardware from Compass (or use them stock).  Option D is Dia Compe 750s, also not made in the USA.  

[Eric Norris]

Option E would be Mafac Racers, which aren't as pretty, but can be polished with some Simichrome and which have excellent stopping power. Last time I checked, even NOS Racers are fairly easy to find.

--Eric N

www.CampyOnly.com

CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com

Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

--

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I selectively edited out the "and USA" portion of the ad page!!!

Concerns humbly withdrawn!

[Bill Lindsay]

Mafac Racers are smaller than Paul Racers and the Compass brakes.  Without question if you are running 700x32 or thereabouts with fenders, Mafac Racers can be had very affordably and are really fun to profile and polish.  But for 650Bx42 + fenders, Mafac Racers are not an option, right?  You need Raids which are much rarer, or the very rare and weird Tiger.  

[Patrick Moore]

I'll bet they weren't as bad as my all-time tied losers:

Avid BB7 road bike design disks; absolutely useless even with 180 front rotor, best housing and organic pads. The mountain design is very good.

Mafac Cantis, both single and tandem versions (salmons, of course and with both OEM Mafac levers and modern Tektros. Professionals could not get these to work.

Both kinds were good enough to ride the bikes with, but no pleasant.

[Jim Bronson]

I had never heard of the Mafac Tiger before your post but a Google search lead to quite a number of links.  Learn something new every day.  Also, it looks like it really should be MAFAC Tiger/Racer/etc as MAFAC stands for Manufacture Auvergnoise de Freins et Assessoires pour Cycle.

Who knew?  Not me at any rate.

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/mafac1-comp.html

-Jim

--

Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Matthew J]

> Mafac Cantis, both single and tandem versions (salmons, of course and with both OEM Mafac levers and modern Tektros. Professionals could not get these to work.

My experience as well.

But Peter Weigle uses them on more than a few of his bikes and reviews claim they work.  Maybe his magic touch goes beyond perfect lugs and beautiful paint?

[Jan Heine]

Paul Price (the "Paul" of Paul Component Engineering) and I have known each other for a very long time. I remember how he called me up after I wrote an article about centerpulls for the Riv. Reader, way back in the last century (before Bicycle Quarterly), and asked about them. I sent him a set of old Mafac Racers, and he liked them so much that he made his own Racers.

We talked back then about forging the arms, and he told me that in the U.S., there simply isn't anybody making small aluminum forgings like that. So you basically have a choice of CNC-machining in the U.S. or having them forged where the technology exists. These days, even TA cranks are forged in Taiwan. Forging requires a higher initial investment, but the part is stronger and thus can be made lighter, and there isn't as much waste. (With CNC-machining, you make a lot of chips as you chisel the part out of a block of aluminum. With forging, you squish a piece of aluminum that is roughly the right size into a die that gives the part the shape you want.)

To me, "made in the U.S." isn't that important, as long as it's made under good working conditions. My friends live all over the world, and it doesn't make sense to prefer my American friends over my Japanese, French or German friends. We look at each supplier to make sure they are working in ways that I can support, both with concern to labor and to the environment.

Beyond that, I do prefer short supply paths, for environmental and logistical reasons. If possible, we'll make components close to Seattle, like our laser-cut rack tabs, our frame alignment gauges, and some other projects that are still in development. We buy American-made brake shoes, and our tire wipers are made by a retired guy in the U.S. who is grateful for the extra income. Our leather washers for fender mounting come from California...

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
Seattle WA USA
www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:55:54 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

My brother gets Mafac cantis, and the shorter armed single version, to boot, to work well; and so do others, obviously. Me and my bike shop surrogates: no go. 

Must be moon phases or one's zodiacal position

Patrick "no luck, boots or no boots" Moore

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[lungimsam]

I don't know that I have anything pertinent to add to this thread, but I will say, that after installing metal fenders on my sidepull brake road bike, I am of the mind now to purchase any future bikes I get with canti brakes on them. I just don't want any calipers limiting the height I can raise the fender to the fork crown.

You can see how the calipers in the pic below limit that space:

[lungimsam]

...With a canti bike, it must be such a sweet feeling to just slide a front rack strut bolt into your fork crown and then tighten, ever so gently, along with the precisely fitting strut legs to your fork braze-ons, installing the rack in just 5 minutes instead of an hour or more trying to precisely bend a rack's rear strut tang over sidepull or centerpull caliper arms...what a rewarding sigh that must be, afterwards, as you take in the beauty of the newly installed front rack, with the smell of the fresh beeswax or Loctite in the air that was heated, ever so delicately, by the responsible torque-ing of the bolts...did I mention...done in just 5 minutes...the joyful anticipation of seeing how that front rack bag will look nestled onto that bike jewelry you just installed...ok, I'm being silly now...

Really, I can't complain. I love and appreciate my bike and brakes so much, and it was a lot of fun to install the fenders and rack. I learned a lot and love the set up. And the challenges made it very rewarding when it was all done. But I remember thinking these type of things at the time I was wrestling with all the parts to get them installed.

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

>trying to precisely bend a rack's rear strut tang over sidepull or centerpull caliper arms...

OVER?  I always put it UNDER.  Wham, bam, it's done.

[Matthew J]

> I don't know that I have anything pertinent to add to this thread, but I will say, that after installing metal fenders on my sidepull brake road bikebrakes on them. I just don't want any calipers limiting the height I > can raise the fender to the fork crown.

Centerpull like the new Compass or Paul Racer give you more room than all but the real fat tire MTBs would ever need.

[BSWP]

Great to hear Jan chime in here! Can anyone comment on benefits/risks of placing the centerpull braze-on posts so pads are normally at position of longest reach? That is, spec'ing post placement on a custom frame to match pads to rims, with pads at point of longest reach on the brake arms? It seems that will give the most clearance for inflated tires, but may also have an effect on braking, on effort required at the lever and cable travel. Maybe not enough to worry about? Or worth getting just right for specific rims?

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

It definitely has an effect on the resulting mechanical advantage.  Run the numbers on one of the online calculators to estimate how much of a difference it'll make.  

[ascpgh]

Same for me, now I need to figure how to best incorporate the new center pulls to a new frame with the best result and economy. Modify a production frame? Look at TIG steel custom? Good thing winter is just starting, I've got issues to work out!

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[lungimsam]

@ Andrew:

You have to bend the tang over the calipers of  the R559 sidepull  brake arms when you are using R559's and fenders on a Bleriot with 42mm tires - almost absolutely no clearance left between the fender and sidepull brakes arms to run the tang. And because you cannot get the fender close enough to the hole under the fork crown, you can't run a daruma to accept the tang and fenders anyway. That's why I am liking the idea of canti brakes, so that nothing is in the way between tire/fender/fork crown and you would not need to buy a rack with a flat tang anyway, but a rack with a regular tube rod that runs through the hole in fork crown, to then attach the fender to.

[Jan Heine]

Ernest Csuka of Cycles Alex Singer always said that no adjustment should be at the end of the range. Good bikes and good components are designed so that you don't need to push things to the very edge. In Rivendell's early days, this wasn't the case, since only short-reach brakes were commonly available, so Grant spec'd the clearances so the brakes were at the bottom of the slot, so you could fit the widest possible tires. All was fine until Toyo got it half a millimeter off on some Rambouillets, and you had to file the slots of the brake to stop the pads from hitting the tires... I am glad that we now have better components and no longer need to take these risks.

The Compass brakes are designed to provide optimum clearances with 42 mm tires and the pads 2/3 of the way down the slot. Moving the braze-ons higher (and the pads lower in the slots) would increase the clearance, but if you use our rack, it would move the fender mount too high. The brakes open far enough for 42 mm tires as designed, so there is no need to push them any further. Our custom pad holders are short enough to clear the seatstays/fork blades, so the brake can open wide. Most modern pads hit the stays/blades, which limits how wide the brake can open.

If you use narrower tires (say 38 mm), then it makes sense to move the pivots down a bit, so the rack sits at the right level above the tires again. We intend the pads always to be in the middle third of the adjustment range, so that you have some wiggle room.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Friday, December 5, 2014 4:05:00 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

" Our custom pad holders are short enough to clear the seatstays/fork blades, so the brake can open wide. Most modern pads hit the stays/blades, which limits how wide the brake can open."

I sure hope that Compass makes those brake holders available separately.  They appear to be another real upgrade from stock MAFAC hardware.  That's the only piece that doesn't appear to be available separately.  Hopefully that's just a temporary condition.  People who buy that $125 hardware upgrade kit for their MAFAC Racers will probably want those nicer pad holders.   

[Jan Heine]

We'll offer them separately as soon as we have enough in stock. Polishing them is tricky, since the post has to remain full diameter and roundness... Our polisher is working on them, but for now, we only have enough in stock to fit on complete brakesets.

The upgrade kit has proven remarkably popular. Clearly, there are many people who have a set of Mafacs on a bike they love.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[BSWP]

Has anyone on list purchased and used a pair of the new Compass Centerpulls? I'm leaning toward them, for a new touring bike, and am interested in any real-life feedback on their performance.

- Andrew, Berkeley