Paul's brakes on your Riv. Experience between models?

[jinxed]

So my curiosity has been peaked after a brief discussion on the trail with a guy about his Paul's mini motos. He was very impressed with them even having previously been using the neo retros on the same bike, a Rock Lobster cross. The claim was FAR more power and better modulation with all other variables consistent. Levers were cane creek. For some reason I lumped the Minis in with the touring cantis in that they were for more clearance, but not much different as to power. After some quick reading on the magic computer box, it seems this guy is not alone in his assessment.

I am a big fan of cantilever style brakes. So much so, I decided to take the center mount racers off my Hilsen to have canti studs added. Plan was to swap the Racers for some Neo Retros...but now I'm wondering about the Mini Motos.

Has anyone tried the Minis, or even better, both Minis and Neos??

For the record, I know I like the Neos , and the direct mount racers on my Rambler are awesome. And YES, I realize a set of xt v-brakes would deliver, but I don't like the aesthetic and don't want to change levers.

[RJM]

I don't know about the minis because all I've used are the Paul Moto BMX brakes on my Sam....they are powerful once set up correctly, which can actually take some fiddling. There must be some trick I wasn't getting when I was setting mine up because I fussed and fussed with them for over an hour. Finally got them set up, but I was a bit frustrated. The quick release on the Moto brakes is absolutely the best in the business. The Mini Motos use a slightly different release that looks just as good and easy. I think the finish of Paul brakes are top notch and they are really great brakes. I'm not currently using the Moto BMX brakes, but they are sitting in the parts bin looking for a bike to put them on, but wouldn't hesitate recommending them to others.

[Dan McNamara]

I have used the Neos, the touring and the Mini-Motos. If you don't need clearance for tires larger than 42-45 then the mini-Motos are a great choice. They modulate and are really powerful. They will clear a fender and a somewhat classic look. For V-brakes, that is.

Dan

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[justin...@gmail.com]

I have the Mini-Motos on my SimpleOne. Nomad Resist 700x45 clears without room for fender I think. They are fantastic and have immense stopping power. They've convinced me I'll never use traditional cantis again.

-J

[Jay Lonner]

I have Neo-Retros on my Hunq and I have to say I'm a little disappointed. They look great, but don't have as much stopping power as I'd like. (I've consulted Sheldon's articles on cantilever brake theory and practice, and have done my best to optimize the geometry.)

The Minis are an intriguing option, but I'm worried about fender clearance with 55mm tires. I'd also be using MTB-style levers.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

[Mike Schiller]

Brad, I'm kinda in the same boat... I had brazed on Racers which are incredible rim brakes but I find them a touch klunky.   I have the neo-retros on two bikes, them seem to have better  modulation with the fatter spacers on the pads.

I'd like to try the Mini motos but I'm currently running 48 mm WTB Ninelines and I don't think they will fit.  I've seen them with BG Rock n' roads and they clear fine.

The best set up I've heard is Mini motos up front and Touring canti's out back for modulation.   

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[Peter Morgano]

Its a shame they wont clear 55s, I hear rave reviews about them but would hate to lose my fenders.

[cyclotourist]

If you want to try minis with a lower buy-in, check out the TRP CX9. Very nice brakes that will stop you when you want to be stopped!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321457184366 

Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Michael Hechmer]

I have no experience with the mini mottos but have neo retros on the Saluki, Racer M's on the Rambouillet, and the posted Racers on the Bilenkey Tandem.  Paul's brakes do set up differently from Shimano / Tektro style brakes and it took me a while to catch on, now I find it super easy.  It's impossible to compare brakes on a tandem with a different brake on a single (or half bike as they are called in the tandem world) so I will limit myself to two observations about them.  They stop the tandem just find for the kind of riding we do but they max out around 38 MM of clearance, just enough for our Marathon Racers.  Paul's claim they are more powerful than the Neos.

Both the Neos and Racer M's offer super power and good modulation.  I have on occasions, when needed, lifted the rear wheel a couple of inches off the ground then set it back down safely with the Neos.  I owe them my life from near deadly right hook experiences during rush hour.  The Racer M's on the Ram are so good that I never think about them.  I always check brakes and tires before heading out but they rarely need any attention.  I do carry a 15mm (cone) wrench when traveling, because that's what you need to adjust them.

If I were in your position, I would call Paul's and get their recommendation for a specific application.  All their products are super well engineered and manufactured.

Michael

[Mark Chandler]

If you're using MTB-style levers, and they're compatible with v-brakes, I'd recommend some full-size v-brakes (i.e. 100mm or longer). Power will be greatly improved, and clearance shouldn't be an issue.

Given the choice, I'll take mini/v-brakes over cantilevers any day. In fact, for tires less than 35mm wide, I prefer modern (dual-pivot) sidepull calipers.

--

[jinxed]

Interesting comments regarding the clearance. I would have assumed the Neos and minis would have the same clearance given the same pads. But are we talking about getting a tire past the pads, or the Minis arms contacting the tire and or fender when braking?

I'm not too concerned with either given the Hilsen will only accommodate a 42ish tire and I don't run fenders. However it's nice to understand any possible limitation before hand.

@ David - I did take a look at that TRP setup. I like that there are more options popping up for standard pull road levers. They're not winning any beauty contests, but knowing TRP I bet they work really well.

Heavy preference goes to supporting Paul's if possible. Then there's the pure curiosity of trying something new.

@ Mike - I am split on the racer clunkiness. The direct mount sure look cleaner and much more streamlined than having the extra mounting plate for center bolt. But then they do have a beautiful industrial vibe that's hard not to like. Although my sets have been the matte silver, I think the polished ones look fantastic on all Rivendell models.

[justin...@gmail.com]

I'm
Talking about height to the wire over the tire.

-J

[Mike Schiller]

I like supporting US companies so I prefer to use Paul's on all my bikes.  For me, as well, I think most V brakes are just plain ugly too.  The Mini moto's are ok looking because of the graceful curve but the wire clearance over the tire just clears a Rock'n road.   ....and yes the polished versions are very nice, both sets I have are polished.  

I looked for a used Hisen for a few years with the same plan you have, I never found one in my size. I ended up getting a non -Riv custom. Then comes the toughest part of such a project... picking a paint color.

~mike

[jinxed]

Yep. I agree on all counts. The original matte grey XTR vbrakes were sexy on the MTB back when, but the luggy looks of a Riv sure beg for a classier approach.

I will say the first few times I saw the mini motos I thought they looked wonky. It seemed like the pad spacing or the spring tension was off because the arms always looked crooked. It wasn't till I saw them off a bike that I realized they had an asymmetric design. I would never have considered a V style brake but these seem to slip in under the radar. I DO like the fact that it eliminates any need for front and rear cable hangers.

As for paint...I'm done with fancy. That itch bit me once already and I'll not scratch it again. A friend of mine does high end custom auto and motorcycle painting and offered to help me with the Hilsen. He said he could color match to just fix the mods, or do an entire new color. He's a phenomenal airbrush artist and I've inspected his work up close. It's insanely crisp so I'm sure he can tackle it. Regardless I plan to keep it one color with stock decals. Clean and simple.

[Hudson Doerge]

I've had pretty good luck with Paul touring cantis on my simpleone. The power and modulation is great. My only qualm has been battling squeal from the front break. A neo or mini moto on the front would be nice. Although the tire, fender clearance of the mini moto does concern me.

[BSWP]

I'm getting a hankering for a new bike, something stout to tour and camp with, and am playing with brake ideas. What I wish Paul would do is make a shorter version of their Motolites, the asymetrical MiniMotos just look strange to me. I have TRP RX-6 "mini" Vees on my LongLow, and they're quite good - medium pull, fine with Tiagra levers. 90mm arms.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Bob Cook]

I have Racers on my new AHH and I'm pleased with them. Nice modulation and plenty of stopping power (just the bike, a saddlebag, and me, though; no load to speak of). On my LHT I have Neo-Retro in front and Touring Canti in back. Excellent in both cases, though it did take me some fiddling to get the Neo-Retro to deliver the power. The straddle cable is meant to be really high.

I haven't tried the Motolites or MiniMotos mostly because I love the look of high-profile cantilevers. Also, I find linear-pull brakes (not Paul) difficult to get pulling evenly unless they are brand spanking new. I'm sure this is my problem rather than the brakes' problem, but until I get smarter cantis or road calipers are good enough.

--
Bob

[Christian]

Hi All,

Many folks here note that they needed to do some fiddling with their Paul's to get them set up right.  I'm curious what tricks people have used to get the best performance out of their Paul cantis?  I have touring cantis and they're fine.  Beautiful, of course, but performance wise they're not world changing.  I gotta say, however, that the super cheap Deore V brakes on my LHT--pulled by mtn levers on albatross bars--work every bit as good if not better.   

Anyway, set up tips, tricks, etc would be good to know about.  

Thanks,

Christian 

[Michael Hechmer]

If the issue is power, instead of centering, rubbing, noise or stability, I would expect one of two causes.  First, it may be a mismatch with the levers.  I found that the Shimano SIS levers did not work well with any cantis.  They just pull too much cable to get a good grip.  Second, and here I'm guessing a bit because I have no experience with the touring cantis, only the noes, my intuition tells me I will get the most power when the cable is 90 degrees from the arms.  On my neo retros that means I have a very hi and long straddle cable. The touring cantis, at 45 degrees would be much lower.  The Paul site says this:

"We recommend running the Touring Canti with a lower straddle wire to maximize stopping power. Having the cable carrier between 1" inches and 2" above the tire is a good range."

I suppose it could also be the pads or too little toe in that is compromising the power.  

I find setting up cantis is best with a lever that has a quick release, so they can be set pretty close to the rim and still allow easy wire removal.  The Cane Creek and Tektro levers work great with these brakes.  I also like to have an adjustable barrel on the cable and a good quality hanger, Paul's are nice to work with.  To adjust them I simply unhook the straddle cable, put an allen wrench on the outside and move the 15mm adjusting bolt to the desired tension in the return spring.  BTW, be careful when installing the springs,  They go in one direction for cantis and the other for Cps.  It's easy to get confused.

Hope this helps.

Michael

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

If you're going to the trouble of brazing on cantilever bosses, why not consider brazing on Racer bosses? They're the same exact bosses located differently. I guess you'll lock yourself into just one single type of brake and you'll need to buy the stainless sleeves, but I really like the Racer brakes and think they are a marvelous balance between power and control when used with Campagnolo Ergopower levers.

I don't particularly believe cantilever and linear pull brakes are really that different (in power/modulation/control/etc) when the cantis are set up correctly, and especially if the cantis are used with the brake levers with the desired mechanical advantage (they all differ by a bit). True, it takes more effort to get the cantis working to my liking (versus the linear pull's no-brainer/non-adjustable setup) but that's also why I adjust for more leverage/less travel up front and less leverage/more travel in the back. This allows me to balance the front-rear power and affords me more tolerance for out-of-trueness in the rear wheel. But we're just nitpicking at this point.

I actually find linear pull brakes somewhat of a hinderance when one is trying to use big tires and fenders because one can't adjust where the horizontal actuation cable is. My Surly for example has the cable/latch rubbing the top of the front fender because I'm running 2.0 Kojaks and thick plastic fenders. It doesn't impact braking performance but it's kinda annoying to have the brake mechanically scrap the top of the plastic fender every time I touch the front brake lever. This is with normal height linear-pull brakes so I'll imagine the shorter Mini Motos will be even more restricting.

I'll admit it. I dislike the Neo Retro. They require brake levers with a higher mechanical advantage to work well because they don't have a lot of mechanical advantage themselves. Look at the curves on this for comparison and you'll see what I mean:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

In addition, they also stick out like sore thumbs. Used at the back, they've poked at my shoes occasionally. They do look very nice though, but that's essentially their only saving grace.

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:20:10 PM UTC-7, jinxed wrote:

[Christian]

Thanks Michael. I've got the cable set up pretty close to the tire-a little less than an inch from the fender.  They really are working fine.  How does ones tell which direction is right on the springs, by the way?  I AM easily confused.  

Best wishes,

Christian

[Dan McNamara]

One great addition to Paul cantis are the Nugz that Hunter Cycles make. Very slick way to do small adjustments on the straddle. 

Dan

--

[Michael Hechmer]

The spring are gold and silver.  Different brakes use them differently.  The only way to know for sure is to read the installation instruction.  They're online if you need them.

Michael

[jandrews_nyc]

Hi

I've been using the Paul Motolite's on my S.H. with Tektro MT3.0 V-brake flat bar levers.

When set up correctly they feel amazing.  Very secure 

I just moved to the Albastache so I purchased the Cane Creek Drop-V's which are a linear pull lever designed to work with V-brakes.

For some reason I can't get the cable to pull correctly.

Does anyone know if there's any reason that combo shouldn't work? (Paul Motolite & Cane Creek Drop-V)?

thanks

Jason

[Thomas Skean]

I've used Tektro drop-bar linear-pull-compatible levers with my Motolites with no problem. I've been led to believe that my levers are actually just sort of "generic" Cane Creek Drop-V levers. That could be wrong. But in any case the Tektro levers worked fine. (There's nothing like a Paul Love Lever 2.5 to go with Motolites, though; they just feel solid and reassuring. Probably just because I like the looks of both the levers and the brakes. :))

Thomas Lynn Skean