LHT vs Clem ??

[alan lavine]

Evening All,

I have a Surly LHT that I've used for fully loaded touring, and have loved it for that purpose.  However, when lightly loaded or not at all, I find the ride stiff, rigid, almost leaden (is that a word ?)  For various reasons, I probably will not be doing that kind of touring going forward, probably just light credit card touring. So I'm thinking that the Clem I pre-ordered might be a better choice for that purpose.  Is there enough known about the Clem's geometry, tubing diameters and thickness to make that decision?  Certainly the long chainstays will make for a more forgiving ride.  So does it make sense for me to take all the LHT's stock components and mount them on the Clem and call it my new light touring bike?

Awaiting the collective wisdom of the group...if the answer is yes, I'll have a 58 cm LHT frame to sell.....

Thanks,
Alan

[Deacon Patrick]

That sounds very reasonable, and I would go further to say the Clem is likely excellent as a loaded tourer as well.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Kieran J]

Others have mentioned that the Clem is very beefy - not sure where I read that. So, it may not be all that different than the LHT in terms of stoutness, although I would be surprised if they ended up having identical handling characteristics. Rivs do have a certain "sparkle" in the way they ride.

KJ

[drew beckmeyer]

the prototype clem we have is quite stout. i would venture to say that it is likely at least as thick walled as a lht and maybe even heavier in weight...havent actually weighed anything and im sure big tires are part of it, but it feels not so far off from my hunqapillar, which is a tank in the best way.  i've never ridden a lht, but i've also never ridden a dead feeling rivendell, so i don't think youll be disappointed in the swap.  however, if you are trying to go lighter, i doubt the clem is any or much. 

[Ken Mattina]

I'm not going to buy a bike like these two, but if I were, I'd take a hard look at the VO Camargue.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 8:04 PM, drew beckmeyer <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

the prototype clem we have is quite stout. i would venture to say that it is likely at least as thick walled as a lht and maybe even heavier in weight...havent actually weighed anything and im sure big tires are part of it, but it feels not so far off from my hunqapillar, which is a tank in the best way.  i've never ridden a lht, but i've also never ridden a dead feeling rivendell, so i don't think youll be disappointed in the swap.  however, if you are trying to go lighter, i doubt the clem is any or much. 

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[islaysteve]

It seems like most if not all Rivs are supposed to be suitable for the kind of touring you're contemplating, like a Sam or Hilsen. If you already have a Riv, you might not need a Clem.
Steve

[James Warren]

I don't understand the last sentence.

On Mar 20, 2015, at 3:25 AM, islaysteve wrote:

It seems like most if not all Rivs are supposed to be suitable for the kind of touring you're contemplating, like a Sam or Hilsen.  If you already have a Riv, you might not need a Clem.  
Steve

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- 700x33

[Rod Holland]

What tires are you running on the LHT? I've found that light, supple tires completely transform the ride experience of that bike, compared to the armored touring tires commonly used. Try a set of Compass Barlow Pass before you write it off.

rod

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 9:05:55 PM UTC-4, alan lavine wrote:

[alan lavine]

On Thursday, March 19, 2015 at 9:05:55 PM UTC-4, alan lavine wrote:

Thank you all for your thoughts.  I did upgrade the tires to Compass 38's and indeed, there was some improvement.  I also have a Ram, which I use as my go-fast bike (fast being a very relative term), so I've avoided adding racks and fenders.  But yes, it could probably do light touring if set up that way.  Part of this issue is me, in that I hate accumulating "stuff" that I don't use, and the addition of the Clem means the LHT will get bumped to the back.  I think Surly makes a great bike and for the price you can't go wrong.  But I like Riv better. 
Is there really no info on the dimensions or tubing for the Clem?

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. The LHT is a "normal" touring bike. Drop bars, rugged, etc. The Clem is not normal. There isn't another bike out there like the Clem. For sure it's intended for upright bars and very relaxed riding. The notion of replacing an LHT with a Clem sounds cool, but not if your objective is a lighter and sportier more lively ride.

Are you looking for tubing specs to compare with the same specs on your LHT? Like if the Clem tubing is thinner then it'll be flexier and you'll like it? Did you talk to Keven about it?

[alan]

Let me be clear: I will use and enjoy the Clem in any case, I'm just playing around with ideas on how I will set it up.  Frame geometry and tubing specs can give you an idea about how a bike will feel and the most appropriate way to set it up, but its no substitute for actually riding it.

Bottom line question: Will the Clem be more comfortable for light touring than the LHT (when used for light touring)?

Related question: What is it about the Clem that makes it intended for upright bars?

Thanks.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. The LHT is a "normal" touring bike. Drop bars, rugged, etc.  The Clem is not normal. There isn't another bike out there like the Clem. For sure it's intended for upright bars and very relaxed riding.  The notion of replacing an LHT with a Clem sounds cool, but not if your objective is a lighter and sportier more lively ride.

Are you looking for tubing specs to compare with the same specs on your LHT?  Like if the Clem tubing is thinner then it'll be flexier and you'll like it?  Did you talk to Keven about it?

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[Bill Lindsay]

On Friday, March 20, 2015 at 12:29:42 PM UTC-7, alan lavine wrote:

Let me be clear: I will use and enjoy the Clem in any case, I'm just playing around with ideas on how I will set it up.  Frame geometry and tubing specs can give you an idea about how a bike will feel and the most appropriate way to set it up, but its no substitute for actually riding it.

Bottom line question: Will the Clem be more comfortable for light touring than the LHT (when used for light touring)?

Probably?  The Clem would almost certainly be heavier and slower, but almost certainly more comfortable.  I'd almost certainly be smiling and enjoying the scenery more on a Clem with Bosco bars.  

 

Related question: What is it about the Clem that makes it intended for upright bars?

The thing about the Clem that makes it intended for upright bars is that Grant has said from the get-go that upright bars was and is his intent when he designed it.  They have a recommended/suggested build list, and say Albatross or Bosco.  I think drop bars on the Clem would be a mistake.  I think skinny tires on a Clem would be a mistake, also.  (It's funny that I now think of 700x38 as skinny, but here we are!)  I bet that if you called Riv and wanted the exact TT length, they might be reluctant to tell you and try to talk you out of drop bars.  If they did that, it would be because they like you and want to help you be the happiest you can possibly be on your bike.  They believe (and I agree) that the happiest Clem-riders will be using Bosco bars or something very similar.  

That said, I'm just guessing and you definitely should try whatever it is you feel like trying.  It's just that your initial statement about your LHT not being light enough or not being right for light touring or credit card touring.  The Clem is definitely not a lighter faster LHT.  The Clem is a Clem.  It is in its own category.  For sure nobody knows for sure what a Clem with drop bars will feel like, because nobody has ever done it.  I would guess the long TT will force you to a tiny stem and will make the bike handle weird.  It might be overstating it, but it could ruin the bike.  To prove that to yourself, I suppose you need to know the TT length. 

Thanks.

[Joe Bernard]

I believe the idea with the long stays, long TT and a reach-back bar is to put you in the center of a longbike, kinda like a chopper. In order to make a dropbar work, (I surmise) you'd have to ride a too-small Clem for a shorter TT, then stick a shorty stem in there. Which would leave the question, "Why did you buy that frame if you wanted those bars?"

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[alan]

Actually folks, I said nothing about a drop bar.  My Surly has a straight bar with bar ends and twist shifters and this has worked well for couple a thousand miles of touring.

I don't do well with a fully upright position.  Because of a herniated disc, I need to be in a slightly forward leaning position with torso about 45 degree angle to the horizontal.  I've been able to achieve this on several bikes, all with different handlebars: drop bars on the Ram, moustache bars on a fixed beater (old schwinn world frame), straight bars on the LHT and also an old Motobecane grocery getter.  I may try albastache bars on the Clem, not sure yet.  But I have no doubt I will find something that works.

[Montclair BobbyB]

I intend to build my 59cm Clementine as if I were a kid riding my big sister's bike... I can't picture it with anything but huge swept-back upright bars...

[Isaiah Kramer]

I'll be test riding a clem this weekend and I'll let you know my thoughts. Given the thick diameter tubes and overall stoutness/geometry of the bike, I doubt anyone would consider the  Clem a "light" anything. How you loas it and what feels good is up to you, and perhaps the Clem will feel livelier unloaded than a trucker, but most "light" tourers that I've come across typically have less wheel clearance, thinner tubing, more roadish geometry. If anything I think the Clem could handle what your throw at it but it fall into the category of Bombproof Country bike for dirt roads and S240s as opposed to credit card touring and randonneuring. For all I know country bike is just what you're lookin' for. And don't listed to me just yet, I'm already forming an opinion about the bike without having rode it, standby for an informed test ride report

[drew beckmeyer]

here is our first family photo with the 46 clem and 54 hunqapillar on a late night trip. laid back, long and stout.

[Wayne Naha]

The folks I've spoken to at Riv tell me that the Clem's stoutness falls between the Sam and the Hunq.  To me, that would put the Clem's stoutness level near to the Atlantis, though obviously very different geometry.  Since the LHT is widely taken to be derivative from the Atlantis, one could expect that the Clem would also be similar in stoutness to the LHT.  

[Wayne Naha]

Your Clem holds it own very nicely against it's larger sibling.  A definite family resemblance.