Cheviot (or Sam)

[SeanMac]

Hi folks,

I had the opportunity to spend a few hours at Riv HQ a few Saturday's ago.  I had a wonderful time - I rode four bikes (Clem, Cheviot, Sam and Hubbuhubbah), and walked away with a medium saddlesack bag.  Still smile when I think about the fun I had.  Most of my riding (about an hour) was done on the Clem.  I enjoyed the ride, but it did not really speak to me.  Perhaps it was just too different from the bikes that I typically ride.  Strangely enough, the bike that emerged as my favorite was the Cheviot.  I can't seem to get it out of my head.  In fact, ever since I returned home, I have been trying to figure out if I loved the Chev enough to purchase one before they go away.  Here is my situation.

About ten years ago I had a custom-built Bob Brown Cycle made for me.  I nearly bought a Rambouillet, but chose Bob Brown instead.  It was my poor-man's red convertible that I got for my 40th birthday.  That bike complimented my circa 1990 Trek 520 quite well.  My Bob Brown was quick-ish, sporty and fun to ride.  However, as the years went by, I found it to be increasingly uncomfortable for longer ride.  Two years ago I bought a Black Mountain Road bike.  This bike has a bit more relaxed geometry.  I really love this bike - it is much more comfortable than Bob Brown, and has become the bike that I grab most often.  In fact, Bob Brown typically sees the road only once or twice a year - it is typically the bike that I use on my indoor trainer.  My Trek 520 has been turned into a grocery-getter.  However, it does not bring me a great deal of joy to ride, but it gets the job done.

In my mind, I see the Cheviot as a replacement for my Trek 520.  Nearly all of the components that I have on the Trek would easily transfer to the Chev - meaning that my initial output of cash would be only for the frame.

I've read through everything that I can find on the list about the Cheviot.  I would love to hear impressions from those who have had the bike long term.  Likes?  Dislikes?  Dealing with the "guy on a girl's bike" thing is perhaps an issue.  However, as I approach 50 I see the benefit of the lower top tube.  Besides, when I rode the Cheviot in Walnut Creek, I did not even think about the fact that I was riding a mixte, as I was simply enjoying the ride.

I live in a small town in western New York - with short rides (mile or two) to the co-op grocery store, library, post office, etc.  This is the type of riding, along with occasional paved and/or gravel path riding) that I see myself doing with a Cheviot.  What do you think -- good choice in bikes?

What about a Sam?  I rode a Sam the other day as well, but it was set up with Noodle bars, and rode much more like a typical road bike.  If I set it up with Albatross bars, bags, etc how would it likely compare with the Cheviot?  Would it ride the same and put the same smile on my face without causing me and/or those seeing me question my manliness?

Any insight on these issues would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Sean
East Aurora, NY

[Dan McNamara]

Hi Sean,

I have a Cheviot and have owned a Sam in the past. 

The Chev is set up with Albastache bars and a short stem. The Cheviot does ride differently that the Sam probably due to the longer chain stays. The Chev is a 55 so 650B which might contributed of the difference as well. Both bikes were extremely stable and easy to ride. 

I never give the fact that the frame is Mixte-style a thought - It is really not that low. The bike is setup with front + rear racks and Rock n' Road tires and looks purposeful. It is a bike for hauling stuff and bike camping excursions. 

The Chev is one of the first batch is orange and I am not sure what has changed since but I wish it had a second set of bosses for a bottle cage. I can make up for it by tucking bottles into a bag but it would be nice to have another spot on the frame. 

All-in-all a great bike. 

Dan

San Rafael CA

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[Clayton.sf]

I have 3 other amazing bicycles, but the Cheviot is what I ride the most. Not that I would do a fast 200k on it or take it mountainbiking (I rides single track well enough though) but for most rides it is an amazing bike. Tends to put you in a different frame of mind. A very practical bike! I wrote a review of mine somewhere here. Do a search.

Clayto Scott
SF, CA

[Will]

A few years ago I bought a Motobecane Super Mirage Mixte (google it) from a woman up the street. It was $15, had been her daily commuter for years, and she'd had Suntour Command shifters installed. I bought it for the shifters figuring I'd never find a pair for $15. At the time I was riding a nice '83 Trek 610. It had a Shimano 600 group and was a relaxed geometry sport-road bike. Within a week, the much nicer 610 was on the pegs and the mixte was my daily ride. The mixte was simply more fun. The diagonal top tube was a lot easier to lock at bike racks and b/c it was an old mixte, I felt it lacked the sex appeal for theft: no carbon bits, no disks, etc... I rode it for about 5 years, then got an Atlantis.

If the mixte could have taken 38s or more I'd still be on it, but older frames tend to require narrow tires... and so I moved on.

I cannot imagine going wrong with a Riv mixte. You may be moving into grandfather mode within a few years. It's nice to have a really stiff rear with long stays. Perhaps, like me, you'll be hauling a Burley trailer. In the meantime a good rack, a set of panniers, on that rear will make the bike an unbeatable do-all. Go for it.

[Kellie]

Hi Sean: I have a green Cheviot and gave up my Sam to get it. It's set up also with Rock and Roads, front (with a basket) and rear rack, and I ride it everywhere; off road too (not technical single-track). I have 3 other bikes and the Cheviot gets the call most often. A little finagling to get a mixte on a bike rack, not the lightest bike in the herd but the most comfortable.

[Philip Kim]

Hey Sean,

I've owned both the Chev & Sam, before switching to the Hunq which fit more of my fat tire needs, and the ability to shoulder my bike up and down my apartment stairs.

If  you don't have to carry the bike up and down any stairs and don't need room for more than 45mm tires, I think the Chev is an excellent choice for what you want. The Sam with albatross bars didn't quite work well even when I had it with a 110mm stem, my hands kept getting pushed to the curves, but the Albatross bars work so well with the Chev. I personally had a better time riding the Chev than the Sam.

If the Chev had cantis/v brakes, I would definitely have kept it. I still love my Hunq though.

[Joe Bernard]

I still have some residual issues with mixtes being perceived as "girl bikes", but I don't see it in the Cheviot. The toptube has more of a downslope-like-a-mountain-bike look than a true mixte. If it rides anything like my Appaloosa - which I think it's comparable to - then you should get one. I rode my Joe at RBW once, then went back a few days later for another, then went back a couple days after that to buy it. I loved the blue with green-wrapped Noodles, and knew that color was going away. If you dig that Chev, buy it!

[SeanMac]

Wow - what a bunch of enablers you folks are!  In all seriousness, I really do appreciate all of your comments.  I really did enjoy riding the Cheviot when I was in Walnut Creek a few weeks ago.  I remember being surprised by how quick the bike felt.  I have a Tubus rear rack and a "Mark's rack" that would be added to the Chev.  With this setup I think it would be an ideal around town / bike path bike.  I rode a green bike, but really like the orange color - with the cream headtube being a nice bonus. 

I still regret not buying a Rambouillet ten years ago.  Since this looks like the last run of Cheviots, it seems like I would be a fool to not pull the trigger.

Any advice on selling a go-fastish bike?  The only way that I can justify purchasing the Chev is by selling off the Bob Brown bike that I currently own.  I assume that there would be little market on this list.  Where else might I turn?  Suggestions on setting a price?  Is there a standard depreciation rate for bikes that I can/ should use to help me determine my price?  What are the benefits / pitfalls of selling on ebay?

Sorry to be so filled with questions.  However, I'm entering unknown territory and this group is filled with knowledgeable folks.

Thanks again,
Sean

[Derek Lawrence]

My wife has a Cheviot and I have a Sam. Both are setup almost identically and ride wonderfully. The Chev is a bit plusher ride and extremely comfortable. If I were to choose one for city and errand riding, it would be the Cheviot. The longer chain stays make large panniers for groceries easy, and having the low top tube more manageable with a load. Add a double kickstand and you're set.

[Kellie]

Tires= I LOVE the Rock and Roads. Use both on and off road. They wear great. I believe they're the maximum width the Cheviot can take.

[LeahFoy]

The last run of Cheviots? Say it ain't so!

I can't speak to the Cheviot, but I have the Chev's forerunner, the Betty Foy and it's a lovely bike. It's also my only bike, and it will remain so because it is One Bike to Rule Them All. I am putting Bosco Bullmoose bars on it, and then I promise it cannot be improved upon. That sloping top tube is just so darn practical, and it adds a sexy quality to the bike - it looks like it's ready to take flight, if you ask me. It's smooth and stable and does every single thing I need it to do. It takes me on a very challenging school commute with my sons, and with racks and baskets and a saddlesack, it hauls all the necessary items, including the family dog, who rides in the Wald basket. I was initially set to get a Sam, because it seemed like bike folks didn't consider the mixte a serious bike, but when I called RBW, Keven listened to what I wanted in a bike and said, "Why not a Betty Foy? That's what I ride." And so I met the perfect bike.

If these are the last run of Cheviots (really? It kills me to hear it!) I'd snag one.

[Ryan Fleming]

If I recall Bob Brown makes some very nice bikes ...could try posting the bike here or internet-bob, I would think

[drew]

I just recently gave up looking for a used 50cm cheviot for my wife. She has a Clem and it would be stupid financially anyway. They just don't pop up for sale nearly as often as other riv models. I think I've seen 1 chev in the last year, and he was selling it for about the same price as a new one. That has to be good.

I have a Sam. I love it, but like phillip I was not satisfied with upright bars on it. It felt too squished. I know others here have and love uprights on their sams. Mine has drops and is definitely more road like.

[Ryan Fleming]

[Ryan Fleming]

Sorry....as you can see by the link, classic lugged steel bikes available

 http://www.bobbrowncycles.com/ 

From Minnesota....

[Madam Xylene]

I love my cheviot! Great for carrying lots of stuff and enjoy being upright while cruising in traffic. Get over the girl bike thing. I even commute up 1800 ft elevation on it, not the best for uphill but is a blast rolling down steep hills and enjoying view of Golden Gate Bridge. Have also done Mt.Diablo except last pitch on it. Bike is very stable but it is longer and heavier than my other bikes. As a scrawny but tallish 66 yr old female I can manage it into my house and BART elevators. Another bonus, if you have a hip muscle or tendon issue the step through feature will be most appreciated.

[Bill Lindsay]

The problems with selling a used custom steel bike are two-fold.  First is that you have to come to grips with the fact that a custom frame is valuable because it is custom.  The freedom to change things until they are perfect for you is valuable.  That value is completely spent once the bike is made.  It's no longer custom for the next person who buys it, because the next owner can't change anything.  That immediately removes whatever premium you paid for it being custom right off the top of your re-sale value.  Taking a $3500 custom Rivendell as an example, the resale value of a custom Rivendell is not a lot higher than the resale value of a stock MUSA Rivendell, like an Atlantis or a Roadeo.  The second problem is your buyer needs to already be a fan of your builder to be motivated to buy your bike.  Finding a bunch of Bob Brown fans looking for a deal might be hard.  

Personally I sold a Davidson Signature frameset and experienced these issues first hand.  It was a ~$2200 frameset in 1992.  I sold it in 2010, eventually resorting to eBay, for $400.  My buyer was understandably thrilled at the deal he got.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Jon in central Colorado]

These posts make me happy I ordered a Cheviot.

I have never ridden one.

I tried to talk my wife into a 55cm so she could ride along with me on my Sam. She said no. So I ordered a 60cm for myself. Snooze she loses.

I'm excited to see the difference between the Sam and Cheviot. The Cheviot probably not as responsive in the corners but expect it to be as comfortable or more than the Sam.

They will be set up almost identically. A spring saddle for the Cheviot.

Chomping at the bit!

[Ryan Fleming]

as usual good point and I bet your buyer was thrilled to get such a deal

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/09/2016 03:04 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> The problems with selling a used custom steel bike are two-fold.
> First is that you have to come to grips with the fact that a custom
> frame is valuable because it is custom. The freedom to change things
> until they are perfect for you is valuable. That value is completely
> spent once the bike is made. It's no longer custom for the next
> person who buys it, because the next owner can't change anything.
> That immediately removes whatever premium you paid for it being
> custom right off the top of your re-sale value. Taking a $3500 custom
> Rivendell as an example, the resale value of a custom Rivendell is not
> a lot higher than the resale value of a stock MUSA Rivendell, like an
> Atlantis or a Roadeo.

It's actually worse than that (based on long-standing observation of
discussions of custom bikes for sale on a couple of bicycle forums). A
custom frame has unknown geometry, whereas you can always look up the
specs on an old stock frame. Some customers have gotten amazingly weird
customs - things you'd hope no self respecting builder would ever
countenance, things that can (as happened in the case of Serotta) go a
long way towards destroying a firm's reputation. As a result, people
are very wary of customs made for someone else, and the price reflects
that concern as well.

[Mike Packard]

I'd also be interested to hear from those who are in a position to compare the Cheviot to the Clem L-Style.

[Joe Bernard]

Let's see the Bob Brown!

[Jeremy Tavan]

I'm not in a position to compare the two, but I would very much like to TRY a Cheviot, because I know from experience that my wife and I can easily pedal the Clem L-stype hard enough to cause problematic frame flex. The Cheviot should be stiffer, and I think that would help a lot.

/Jeremy

[CoalTrain]

I have owned a Cheviot for a year and ride regularly. I'm 6'3" and weigh 220-230 depending on how many hot dogs I've eaten; there is not much frame flex and I can get this baby moving. Great bike, maybe the greatest get around town bike ever created, or least for myself.

[SeanMac]

Still more comments about how nice the Cheviot is to ride.  As far as I can tell, the only criticism seems to be that it only have one bottle mount.  For around town riding, this seems not a big deal, and, as the poster commented, extra bottles can be stashed in bags if going on an extended ride.

In the preorder page on the Riv website, Grant writes "Last Call?" in the description of the Cheviot, explaining that the Clem has been taking sales away from the Cheviot.  I rode both bikes a few weeks ago and found the Chev to feel much more nimble and quick than the Clem.  For my anticipated riding, that makes the Cheviot the winner.

A few people had commented about the struggle to sell custom bikes.  What a bummer.  I started a separate thread about my Bob Brown - with a link to some photos.  Its geometry is pretty conventional (I think) so hopefully there is a market for it.

Sean
EA, NY

[Mark in Beacon]

Mike Packard wrote:I'd also be interested to hear from those who are in a position to compare the Cheviot to the Clem L-Style.

That would be Grant, for one. He has Cheviot, which I believe is his main squeeze, and just recently got a Clem L.

Jeremy wrote:
I know from experience that my wife and I can easily pedal the Clem L-type hard enough to cause problematic frame flex. The Cheviot should be stiffer, and I think that would help a lot.

I am duly impressed! The Clem brochure mentions that, under a full load, the 59 Ls will experience a bit of wag when stomping out of saddle. As another data point to your observations, I have a 52 Clementine, and don't have any significant flex to report, problematic or otherwise. While my Clementine's design and accoutrements encourages exploring the gentle side of its nature and generally keeps my inner sprinter at bay, I can kick it pretty good, and I've honked it up some gradual grades, and also motored the flats on occasion, with no discernible flex. (On the Bob list, flex is good!)

Sean wrote:
I rode both bikes a few weeks ago and found the Chev to feel much more nimble and quick than the Clem.

I've never ridden a Cheviot, but I do have a mixte with a 46cm chainstay that could be described as a bit more "nimble" than the Clementine. I think the Chev shares a similarly long chainstay with the Clems. I don't pay much attention to the front end geos, are they different? I'm curious as to the bar setup on the two bikes you tested. My mixte has Albatross, and the Clementine has the Bosco Bulls, and I believe that affects my perception of the handling. But yeah, compared to some others, the Clementine is not Jack over a candlestick.

Okay, I've defended the honor of my lovely Clementine. For the OP, I would say the Cheviot sounds like the bike for you. What a great-looking bike, and from all the feedback, a great-riding bike. I certainly considered it, but ultimately the Clementine provided the differences between my other bikes that I was seeking. In my opinion, the mixte design takes the upright bars even more stylishly than a more level top-tubed rig such as the Sam you are pondering. And riding a mixte in a small Upstate town will just make you a better person all around! It's only a shame it doesn't come in rose. (As for it being more convenient in your dotage, don't count on it, especially if you take a 60; those top top tubes are high enough that you will still need that swing.)

[Jeremy Tavan]

On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 at 5:05:48 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:

Jeremy wrote:
I know from experience that my wife and I can easily pedal the Clem L-type hard enough to cause problematic frame flex. The Cheviot should be stiffer, and I think that would help a lot.

I am duly impressed! The Clem brochure mentions that, under a full load, the 59 Ls will experience a bit of wag when stomping out of saddle. As another data point to your observations, I have a 52 Clementine, and don't have any significant flex to report, problematic or otherwise. While my Clementine's design and accoutrements encourages exploring the gentle side of its nature and generally keeps my inner sprinter at bay, I can kick it pretty good, and I've honked it up some gradual grades, and also motored the flats on occasion, with no discernible flex. (On the Bob list, flex is good!)

We noticed it on my wife's 52cm Clementine when she reported a strange sound when she pushed on the NDS pedal (seated, not standing). It turned out to be front derailleur trim - the frame was flexing enough to cause the chain to scrape the front derailleur cage. A little trim adjustment made it go away, but it was definitely attributable to frame flex. Given that the existing chainring setup of 24/38 is already rather low for her (she likes to mash) and that moving to a larger chainring would result in more pressure being applied to the frame, I'm a bit tempted to switch her over to 1x8 with a 42t, where the flex won't cause any chain rub problems. She's unlikely to ever hill climb to the point where she needs the small chainring, seems to me, and I love my 1x8 Clem gearing.

/Jeremy

[Scott McLain]

If you are concerned about the girl bike thing, look at Mark in Beacon's pictures on flickr of his clementine.  Looks pretty tough when loaded with necessary accessories.  I think the swamp green Chev is pretty tough myself.  You could also make it look even tougher with the bullmoose boscos. If you are looking for an upright ride, the chev, clem, or appaloosa would be the way to go.  That dirty banana color on the happy appy is super cool!  Riv is lengthening the chainstays to better support the upright ride.  If you aren't sure about upright and want to be able to change between upright bars and drop bars, the Sam would hit the spot.

I wouldn't worry about frame flex on a riv.  If anything they are built on the stout side.

Bikes are like potato chips, you always want one more.

Scott

[Mark in Beacon]

Hi Jeremy--

I would also check where the front derailleur cable goes under the bb--give that plastic track thing a squirt of Boeshield. I had a fd rub situation on my Cilo/Vitus 979, and a trip to Mr. Brown's office pinpointed that as the problem. I can't imagine a Riv--even one with a low tt--would be more flexy than that frame (which I liked a lot).

[Michael Hechmer]

My wife has a Betty (nearly identical to a Cevy) and my daughter a Cheviot and the both love them.  My daughter opted for drop bars on hers and found they work quite well, so that is an option.  I suspect that the changes from Betty to Chevy, which mostly consisted of color & name were made to give the bike more appeal to men.  So my suggestion to be don't let others opinion of your testosterone level guide your choice.  You will however need new wheels since your Trek is 700C & the Chevy 650B, which in my mind is a big, big, plus.

Michael

[Eric Daume]

They Cheviot has significantly longer stays than the Betty. It's more than just a color and name change (that was the Yves Gomez model)

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[Ryan Fleming]

I have to say, this has been an interesting thread as I venture into mixte and 650B territory with the eagerly awaited  new Riv custom. Thanks for all the as usual, thoughtful replies

[Irving]

Can I add to the list of glowing reviews about the Cheviot?

I've had my Cheviot since last December and have taken it on a 120k rando ride, Bay Area headlands dirt excursions, S240's and daily commuting trips.

I don't mind dealing with the "guy on a girl's bike" comments. Usually when you have a bike with albatross bars, a Brooks spring saddle, fenders/racks, people are already going to have snarky comments about your ride. I will say that there are plenty of orange Public Mixte's in San Francisco, which my Cheviot has gotten mistaken for on multiple occasions -_-

Anyways, the Cheviot isn't the best for long spirited rides but it's the bike I seem to grab before heading out the door most of these days. 

Here's a picture of me riding last weekend on a S240 campout.

[Jon in central Colorado]

Irving,

Nice looking Cheviot.

I ordered a blue one. Will also have Brooks spring saddle and Albatross.

What rack do you have on the back?

Jon

( serialcycler) on Instagram

[Irving]

It's a Nitto Longboy Longstay that is apparently discontinued now.

[Jon Dukeman]

Thanks Irving.

NICE!

"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE JUNK "....

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[Garth]

   If you regularly use 2 or 3 bottles it eliminates the Cheviot to me.  Yes, you carry water in a bag, but then you're taking up finite bag space with something that ought to be stored on the frame. People buy bags to carry other things, not water. One bottle mount was expected in the 70's but it's 2016. Adding bottle mounts after the fact is for hackers. I've never heard anyone say "Hey I just bought a $1300 frame and it only has one bottle mount, how minimalistic cool is that !".  Ahahahahahaha.  I'm sure Riv has a reason for just one but regardless it will never make sense to make a bike these days with only 1 mount, especially since it's advertised as being tour capable. It ought to at least have a second under the DT.

  That's a good ol' rant for don't skimp on the basic necessities.

[Jon Dukeman]

I feel the same way about that one damn water bottle cage mount.

I also wish the Cheviot had braze-ons for cantilever brakes.

Pictured is my solution to one bottle cage since I often ride trails where horses drop their road apples then it gets ground in and mixed with the dust that covers my water bottles.I put one bottle on the handle bar and one in a rack mounted bag.It works good for day trips.

RandiJoFabrications Bartender bag

"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE JUNK "....

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

   If you regularly use 2 or 3 bottles it eliminates the Cheviot to me.  Yes, you carry water in a bag, but then you're taking up finite bag space with something that ought to be stored on the frame. People buy bags to carry other things, not water. One bottle mount was expected in the 70's but it's 2016. Adding bottle mounts after the fact is for hackers. I've never heard anyone say "Hey I just bought a $1300 frame and it only has one bottle mount, how minimalistic cool is that !".  Ahahahahahaha.  I'm sure Riv has a reason for just one but regardless it will never make sense to make a bike these days with only 1 mount, especially since it's advertised as being tour capable. It ought to at least have a second under the DT.

  That's a good ol' rant for don't skimp on the basic necessities.

--

[Caroline Golum]

Hey y'all!

Long time lurker, first time responder!

If I may put my two cents in: I have the Betty Foy - precursor to the Chev - and couldn't be happier with it. My only bike for seven years now, I ride it on day tours and almost every day in New York City (potholes, traffic, other stupid drivers/cyclists, it's no small feat!). If you're a man and worried about getting weird looks for riding a mixte, don't be! If light cargo in a rear basket or on a rear rack is part of your commute, having a step-through frame is better. Keeps you from having to swing a leg over the back, and you don't have to worry about hitting your family jewels on the top tube if you stop short. 

Some other things to note: 650B is no issue for me in terms of tubes, most 26" tubes will fit (I frequently use 26x1.5 presta and it's fine). If your LBS doesn't sell 650B tires, you can always order them online or ask them to order them for you. I've been riding with the Panaracer Nifty Swifty, and have probably gone through two sets of tires/year because of the kevlar bead. 

Handlebar-wise, I've never been a big fan of the Riv tendency to go super upright, so I installed Nitto Albatross bars upside down for a little extra downward sweep. They take bar-end shifters too, which is great on a Chev because there are no downtube bosses. 

Full disclosure: haven't ridden the Sam, but I did ride a customer's Atlantis when I was shopping around before I bought the Betty frame. The Atlantis was like riding on a cloud of fresh-whipped country butter, I would imagine the Sam is similar. As for the Clementine - just from experience working in different shops, I find that traditional Dutch step-through style to be a little lacking for longer rides and heavier loads, but if that's what you're trying to do it seems perfect!

Anyway, that's my endorsement - BETTY FOR LIFE! Grab a Chev if you can - that olive colorway is especially fetching with leather accessories, IMHO. 

That's all! Ride safe and have a great weekend!

[Mark in Beacon]

Hi Caroline. Welcome. Would be great to see a pic of your City Betty with the racy Albatross bars! Regarding the comparison of the Clementine to the Dutch city bikes, while they share the drooped top tube feature, the Dutch bikes have a significantly different geometry, practically heading into recumbent territory. As for the Clementine and loads, I carry 15-40 pounds, distributed between rear panniers and front basket, with regularity on my 52cm Clementine. It carries these burdens without complaint, and no flex issues for me at 170ish, though I may be a few pounds lighter this week due to water loss! (The Dutch bike pictured above is from Lovely Bicycle.) This message is a public service of the Knights of Clementine Society, dedicated to defending the honor of Clementines everywhere.

[Sean McAtee]

This thread has been so informative.  Thank you all for your comments and stories.  Having lots of data points certainly is helpful in determining what course of action to take - to buy or not to buy a Cheviot.

I've read through the comments a few times and the consensus seems to be that those who have purchased a Cheviot (or a Betty or any other Riv mixtie).  The biggest drawback seems to be the lack of a second (or third) bottle mount.  I certainly see that as a concern if the bike would be used regularly on longer rides.  After all, as Garth and others have noted, it kind of sucks to spend $1,500 + on a frame only to add a cheesy bottle holder if you want to carry two bottles.  However, given my intended usage, as a bike that would mainly be ridden around town (farmers market, grocery store, post office, etc) the number of bottles is not really a concern.  I likely would also use this bike to ride on a few local bike paths (mostly paved) where the lack of multiple bottle mounts would not be a huge concern.

My guess is that a Clem Smith Jr. would serve my intended purpose just as well as a Cheviot.  However, after riding both (a much more extended ride on the Clem) I had a much bigger smile after riding the Chev - it simply seemed to have a bit more life to it than the Clem.  I don't know if this was due to the tubing used on the bikes, the angles, the wheels or some other factor - the simple reality was that I had more fun riding the Cheviot than the Clem.

The more I ponder the Chev the less the "girl bike" thing seems like an issue.  One other silly question that is kind of related to the girl bike thing is the color choice.  I rode a green Cheviot at Rivendell.  I really liked the color.  The new frames have cream headtubes, which the older frames do not.  One more reason to go for a new frame.  Initially I thought that the orange was the best color.  However, the more I think about it the more attracted I am to the grey.  Perhaps this color will make the Chev a bit more manly, as it will look more like a mountain bike.  The description on the website says that the grey is "old Clem grey."  Anyone with a bike in that color care to comment on how they like the color?  Pictures perhaps?  Finally, I have an olive colored saddlesack and a green front bag that I would use with this bike - is orange or grey likely to be my best bet with those colors?

Thanks again for your comments.

Sean

EA, NY

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[Joe Bernard]

I think green bags would look better on the orange bike. But if I ever get a Cheviot, I'll be looking for the green no-cream-headtube bike and put tan bags on it. That would be gorgeous!

[Surlyprof]

Sean,

That green was one of my favorite Riv colors (except maybe the recent matte green Roscoe Bubbe).  Was surprised when they didn't do it again.  I always thought I'd paint my Hillborne that color if I ever bother to repaint it.  I also thought the grey looks pretty great in the blug shots.  Would probably look awesome with tan bags.  If it helps, here is what the older, more metallic orange looks like with olive bags.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/129545862@N03/16372487184/in/dateposted-public/  I love my Hillborne but also thought the Cheviut was pretty amazing when I tried one at Riv.  It was such a smooth, graceful ride.  I hope they have them back if I ever find it difficult to throw a leg over the saddle in the future.

Good luck with your decision.  Sounds like you're deciding between shades of great.

John 

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[Madam Xylene]

IMHO......orange cheviot is more visible in daytime traffic.

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[Bob Lovejoy]

I will just add my vote, such as it is, for the Cheviot.  In fact, I have voted with a deposit as I have had a 60cm grey reserved for awhile now.  I initially thought about a black Clem (actually a Clementine) but decided that if I was going to get a Rivendell, I wanted something I would more likely like/love for years to come,  There will always be new (and great!) regular and interesting road bikes, in all shapes and sizes, but I have some of those already and something different, relaxing and timeless will be welcome.  The Clementine would have been great but I suspect the Cheviot is "the one", the one large, load carrying, relaxing, take me away to another place, timeless mixte.

I don't know if I am just a Mercedes/BMW guy wannabe (I hope not), but I am going with the grey.  The orange, I am sure, is fun and beautiful, the (existing) green perfect with its depth and the way it changes, the blue is going to be perfect for some... but grey seems right for me, I in my advancing years, and though I agree with the visibility issue, there are lots of ways to get that job done and I like the bike to blend in once stopped, attracting as little attention as possible.

One thing I will add... For bikes I have bought, as well as other things, the ones I regretted were the ones I decided on with only logic.  The fact you came back on the Cheviot with a big smile is, well, something to truly consider.  Bikes *should* make you smile!  Some do, some don't, the ones that do are special.

Making the same kinds of decision here in Denver...

Bob

[Deacon Patrick]

To exclude smiles from logic is illogical. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I am very fortunate to have gotten a discount orange Cheviot frame that I had built up recently.  It replaced my Surly Pacer (my wife will definitely not tolerate any more bikes!, but am very fortunate that she tolerated a replacement bike!).  The bike is setup with an Albastache bar, thin gripster pedals, and a kickstand.  Having a non-drop bar, non-clipless pedals and kickstand are all firsts since I was a kid.  

I love the bike, and it has my interpretation of trademark Riv handling in that it is extremely responsive to shifts in weight changes.  Also common to all Rivs, they bring a smile to my face when I go out for a ride.  This is in all seriousness.  I didn't ride the Pacer much anymore because it was too this or too that compared to my Rivs.  Now I am so lucky have another Riv to bring on that smile.

Just in case you are wondering about the drop bar to Albastache adjustment, the brakes are lined up in the front of the bars at the curves, and if the wind is strong, I can lean down and rest my arms along the bars and tuck down very comfortably.  However, my position is very comfortable with multiple bar positions and enjoy the added comfort of the upright bar end position.

I am surprised at how well the thin gripster pedals work.  When I am going uphill, I can definitely pull back on the pedal and get climbing contribution there because they grip the sole of the shoe really well.

Having the functionality of a kickstand is great and forgotten after all these years of "road" riding.  I'm having a friendly discussion with Grant whether a randonneuring bike should have a kickstand plate or not, but for my Cheviot, a kickstand is definitely the right thing to have.

Toshi

[Mark in Beacon]

I think your current green bags will be fantastically attractive with a gray Chev.  Regarding your color choice, when choosing between orange and black for my Clementine, though I like orange bikes, I went with black, partially because there is a rather prominent Public mixte in town in bright orange, and the step-through style for a man seemed to call for something more understated. I was not overly concerned with visibility, as I almost always wear a hi-vis safety vest when commuting, and run lights in the daytime. I would have been equally happy with the Clem (now Chev) gray or Cheviut green, but neither was an option in the Clementine.

It sounds like the Cheviot will be just the ticket for you! It's great you got to ride both bicycles a decent amount before making a decision. Being in New York, that was not a possibility at the time. I seriously considered the Chev, but several factors made the Clementine a clear choice for my needs. I already had a mixte style bike, and though I am sure the Cheviot would be "better" in some respects than my Rivved out Le Tour--well, I already had a mixte. Also I was on the cutting edge of both sizes. My philosophy on that is the bike will work just fine, your body will adjust. But while I could easily handle the 60cm Chev (my SH is 73-74), I did not particularly want a 700c bike with massive rubber and fenders for a city bike application. Plus, in that size, there is no way I would be mounting with any other motion than the leg swing from the back. (And as it is, I can barely maneuver my 52 Clem up the three flights of narrow stairs to my apartment!) Though I suspect I may have given up a tad in spriteliness of ride quality, I have other bicycles that have plenty of pep, and the Clementine over these past months has created an appreciation in me for other ride qualities. And, as I had figured it might, it has subtly transformed what I might call my riding demeanor. I have no doubt your Cheviot will do the same for you!

On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 6:43:51 PM UTC-4, SeanMac wrote:

My guess is that a Clem Smith Jr. would serve my intended purpose just as well as a Cheviot.  However, after riding both (a much more extended ride on the Clem) I had a much bigger smile after riding the Chev - it simply seemed to have a bit more life to it than the Clem.

[Howard Hatten]

Been following this post. I've been trying to decide if I want that 60 green demo Chev. RBW is currently listing or that grey with cream accents frame set. Bobs post that he has a 60 on order led me to search the quantity availability. Wow, only 4 60cm's left in grey. What to do, what to do. Decided, now there's only 3 left.

Howard
Waiting in Livonia Mi.

[Leah Peterson]

Beyond excited for you. Envious, even! When do you expect to take delivery? Whole bike, or frame set?

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[Howard Hatten]

Hi Leah
Not sure when I'll take delivery. Sounds like frames are on the way to RBW. I'm going with a frame set. Not sure how the build will end up. I plan to make this my grocery getter & pub crawler. Winter project I suspect.
Howard
Livonia Mi

[Sean McAtee]

Howard -

Congratulations on your frame order!  I noticed earlier today that there were only three grey Cheviots left.  I have a funny feeling that I am going to follow your lead before the day is over.  A Cheviot is quickly becoming the bike that I do not want to let get away.

I can't seem to recall past practice on "older" frames when a new set arrives.  Is it likely that the remaining "old" Cheviots in stock will be priced a bit lower as a web special?  I do like the green color of the current frame.  However, it lacks the cream headtube of the newer models.

I will be moving the vast majority of the parts over from an old Trek 520 - Albastache bars, Brooks B 17 saddle, Shimano derailleurs, etc.  However, I will need to get a new set of wheels, as my current bikes all have 130 cm rear hub spacing.  I'm probably going to buy an inexpensive set of wheels, such as these currently being offered by Rivendell:  wheels.  I will also likely add a new crank - likely the Sugino XD2 wide/low.

I am looking at using a Cheviot for the same general purposes as you.  Congratulations again.

Sean

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[Jame E]

I have another mixte, but I did want to make a recommendation to those of you with mixte or other step-through frames.

I have this leather frame handle on my bike. I am sure a crafty person could better one as well (the prices has increased quite a bit since I purchased).  But this makes it way easier to navigate the stairs with my mixte.  It puts your hand in the perfect place!

On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 8:30:14 AM UTC-7, Philip Kim wrote:

Hey Sean,

I've owned both the Chev & Sam, before switching to the Hunq which fit more of my fat tire needs, and the ability to shoulder my bike up and down my apartment stairs.

If  you don't have to carry the bike up and down any stairs and don't need room for more than 45mm tires, I think the Chev is an excellent choice for what you want. The Sam with albatross bars didn't quite work well even when I had it with a 110mm stem, my hands kept getting pushed to the curves, but the Albatross bars work so well with the Chev. I personally had a better time riding the Chev than the Sam.

If the Chev had cantis/v brakes, I would definitely have kept it. I still love my Hunq though.

[Ryan Fleming]

something like this would work for me

[Caroline Golum]

Oh snap! Figured the Clem would have a better configuration than a traditional Dutch step-through. And since you asked, here's an OK picture of Betty in Central Park, near the boat launch. Hard to see from here, but I have a weird configuration that always gets compliments at bike shops: 10-speed 105 cassette/derailleur in the rear, single in the front, with one bar-end shifter. Fenders are SKS plastic, I prefer them head and shoulders above the VO metal ones that I had on their in a previous iteration.  

[Michael Hechmer]

My wife's  55 cm Betty has 43.5 cm chain stays.  I know that the RBW site list the Cheviot at 45cm, but I couldn't see any difference when I built my daughter's bike up.  I called her and asked her to measure the chain stay on her 50 cm Cheviot and she got 16.75", which comes to 42.5.  She may be wrong but she is certainly not off by an inch.  Perhaps there was a design change since the introduction.  We bought the last of the first batch.

Michael

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[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Michael,

The Cheviot has chain stays that get longer with larger sizes. (Chart pic on http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-cheviot.htm)

50cm frame -- 45cm chain stay

55 frame -- 50cm chain stay

60 frame -- 54cm chain stay

 

I think this is fairly unusual for a manufacturer to have different chain stays for different sizes. Grant wrote about how frames get taller faster than they get longer in one of the Readers. This seems a more "proportionate" way to size frames-- but I don't know if it is meaningful (or not). 

If you're in between sizes, then this might be another thing to consider. 

shoji

[Michael Hechmer]

I have seen what the web site states; but when I asked my daughter to measure the CS on her 50 cm Cheviot, she reported 42.5.  She lives about 40 miles from me, but the next time I am at her home I will measure them myself just to make sure we are starting at the same point.  

Michael

[Bob Lovejoy]

Michael,

Do you think she is possibly measuring the CS length from, say, the back of the BB?  I can see where measuring chain stay length has at least several interpretations.  I have come to measure CS length from the center of the BB to the rear dropout or center of the rear axle but I am definitely willing to be schooled on what is correct.

Just throwing it out there... Might be worth the question.

Bob

[iamkeith]

Does anybody happen to have a 60cm Chev, and would you be willing to take some measurements and photos of the tire clearance? Also (or maybe more important), is the tightest spot at the fork blades or the chainstays or the brakes themselves?

The last call revelation plus the new colors have me thinking about the Chev again, but the clearance is tire size limit is still the thing that gives me pause. I know the Clem L solves that, but I'm not attracted to it for some reason.

Is there any realistic way I'd be able to move the 2.3 Super Motos from my Clem to a Chev so i can trade up?

[Eric Daume]

No chance. I briefly had a 60cm Cheviut, and a 40mm (actual, labeled 45mm) Resist Nomad was about as big as it could take. 

Eric

[Bob Lovejoy]

A search for "cheviot tire clearance" in this list turns up this...  Great build and beautiful bike!  The pictures in that post answer at least some of the questions.  700x50 Big Applies would seem to be about the largest tire that would work.  And, I suspect, with the fluctuation in actual tire measurements, some may work, others not.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/R3KzXAoKDSo/wh8CH1B1EgAJ

Bob

[iamkeith]

Thanks, Bob & Eric. Not the answer i hoped for, but helpful.

[Jon in central Colorado]

Brian told me that 50 was max on the Cheviot.

[Clayton.sf]

50 is about the max.

If you are running fenders, adding a centerpull (I use diacompe) in the front greatly increases breathing room.

I have run 47mm with fenders on my 60cm and that was tight. 42s are preferred.

Clayton Scot
SF, CA

[iamkeith]

Kind of a shame. If the Clem L is killing the Chev, i almost think this is more of the reason than the price. A hunq fork crown and cantis (and bottle cage brazeons?) could transform the Chev into a perfect bike for me. I wonder if heel clearance would be an issue with brakes mounted on the middle seat stays. Wasn't there talk of being able to request minor modifications like these and/or other colors for a small upcharge sometime soon?

[Mark in Beacon]

Is there a report that this cannibalization is actually happening? If so, why the company just came out with three new Chev colors is puzzling, though it may have something to do with long lead times--or an attempt to "revive" the model. I have no idea if the active members on this list represents the proportion of female to male Rivendell customers (doubt it and hope not!) but I would still think that the Clem L is a tougher sell to the core audience than the Cheviot. For example, you say the Chev would be the perfect bike if it had the Hunq fork (Clem L-check), more bottle braze-ons (Clem L-check) and cantis (Clem L-check). The geos are almost identical. Your modified Chev is..a Clem L. But the Clementine just does not do it for you. I get it.

Mixtes have a certain cache and following among male riders--nothing like the fixed gear phenomenon, but well enough established. A step through is another thing altogether, and while the Dutch-style city bikes are also in resurgence (Public has one, and claims the 7-speed derailleur version is its best-selling city bike), my guess is it's a much tougher sell to men--none of the models pictured on/with the Public Dutch bikes are men. For that matter, none are pictured with the mixtes either. Between that and the color palettes over there, obviously that smart guy from Design Within Reach is heavily targeting female buyers

Various Rivs have various tire clearances as part of the design parameters. Max tire size affects bb heights, brake options, standover (not so much a deal killer on Chevs, with their double sloping top tubes) and other handling features. I recall someone on the list placing an order for a custom Riv mixte. With the number of "minor" modifications you list, that might be the perfect bike for you. Or trade in your Clem H for an L ;^) I ride my Clementine to pick up my quiche.

[David Sprunger]

If it helps visualize, here is a phone snap of my orange Cheviot with the old green canvas RBW Hoss Cartwright panniers. Thanks to the long frame and the Longboy rack, heel strike is a thing of the past.

David Sprunger

Fargo, ND

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think green bags would look better on the orange bike. But if I ever get a Cheviot, I'll be looking for the green no-cream-headtube bike and put tan bags on it. That would be gorgeous!

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[SeanMac]

I wanted to again thank everyone for their comments about the Rivendell Cheviot.  I'm happy to say that I did finally pull the trigger - a few days ago I put a deposit down on a Cheviot!  I decided to go with the grey color - 60 cm (my pbh is 86.  I rode a 60 Cheviot a few weeks ago and Riv HQ and really felt comfortable on it).  I'm really excited.

I had a hard time choosing between the orange and the grey frame.  I really like the orange color.  In the end, however, I decided that the grey color would be a bit more understated - which is probably good for a guy who still is not 100 % comfortable about the mixtie thing (I am about 92% okay with it right now).  I live in a town of less than 7,000 people - we have traffic, but not enough that having a bright colored bike is a huge concern.

I plan to use Albatross bars, Brooks B 17 and a front rack (Mark's) and a rear rack (Tubus) from a Trek 520 that I now use as my townie.  I also hope that I can use the wheels from that bike - they are DT Swiss touring wheels.  I ordered a new front and rear derailer (Shimano CX 70 for the front and Altus for the rear) and a Sugino XD2 wide/low crank.

Again, thanks for all of your help in making this decision.

Sean

[Joe Bernard]

I think that bike looks great in grey. One cool thing about that color is you can "paint" it with bar tape, cages and cables to brighten it up later if you'd like. Red accents would be awesome!

[Bob Lovejoy]

Congrats Sean!   

Like I said, a bike that makes one smile (and remember the smile!) is a great thing...  I am envious of your chance to ride a Cheviot before ordering.  Not that I have any doubts but it would have been nice.  

My build should end up very close to yours, Tubus rear rack, Albatross bars, etc.  I have a Haulin' Colin front rack that might work and will be good for experimenting, otherwise it will be a Mark's like yours.  And I agree with Joe that the grey makes it possible to do a lot of subtle (or not) things with color and accents.

Anyway, congratulations!  May the frames arrive quickly, at least at the perfect time, and be destined for great rides and fun.

I will say I think I am ahead of you on the mixte issue!  I ride a yellow Brompton folding bike a lot, for commuting, for errands, for fun, etc. and with that, any sense of being seen as 100% normal faded some time ago. But people see how useful it is, how much fun is possible, what change can look like and it all works out.... well, mostly.  :>)

Enjoy the new (future) bike and ride!

Bob   

 

[Bob Lovejoy]

Scratch my HC front rack idea...  A Mark's rack it will be!

Ahh, the details...

Bob