Female cyclists in PBP
Yiping Lin
Pardon my french. In the beginning I thought 20% of participants in PBP were female cyclists.
It didn't look like that when I was there. For one thing, women's toilets were pretty empty whenever I entered. I had more chances to spot a man there than a women.
(After checking with Google Translator, that figure is only referred to female cyclists in FFCT.)
I just thought about this because I recently did some statistics.
For participants in PBP (excluding DNS)
World： F 300 (6%)，M 4704 (94%)
France： F109 (5%)，M 1932 (95%)
USA： F 50 (12%)，M 366 (88%)
At the first glance, it seems that the problem lies in France -- too few female cyclists participating. In fact the whole Europe is about the same, except Bulgaria (F 17%). Even in Netherlands (F 1%), where women cycle slight more often than men.
Thanks for USA's contribution, raising the female participation percentage by 1%. :-)
Other countries that have double figures in female percentage are Costa Rica, Japan, Philippines, Puerto Rico, South Africa and Taiwan.
I was kind of surprised. Maybe it has been always like this?
What's the percentage of female members in RUSA?
Yiping
Dan Driscoll
Yes, it would be interesting to know what percentage of RUSA was females, and what percentage of those females went to PBP, and how that is improving or declining over the years.
This year our club, Lone Star Randonneurs sent 11 riders to PBP, three of them were females, Pam + Vickie + Debbie, about 27% of our PBP contingent, about double the USA average. It was the first time for only one female and the first PBP for 3 males.
Happy statistics, DD
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li...@jkassen.org
> What's the percentage of female members in RUSA?
>
RUSA has a handy page of stats:
http://www.rusa.org/cgi-bin/member_demographics.pl
Looks like woman make up %17 of RUSA's membership when that page was last updated.
Jake
Dan Driscoll
to be the last 1% OF Old guys :-)
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Susan Otcenas
from memory...
53 American women were registered. I think all but 1 started. 53
females/435 americans = 12% of american riders were female.
If memory serves, there were 208 female finishers at PBP, for a 69%
finish rate.
I finished. :-) That much I know.
BTW - 25% of Oregon's PBP riders were female. (OK, so that's just me &
Lesli, but hey, 25% is 25%!)
Susan
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Erik Nilsson
about why women do or don't participate in Randonneuring. You can see
the thread here. I found it thought-provoking:
http://groups.google.com/group/seattlerando/browse_thread/thread/12146dad96dc4ad8/cdb3e81752fc67e7?lnk=gst&q=women#cdb3e81752fc67e7
I was riding with a Belgian friend no so long ago, and he commented on
how many women ride in the US athletically. Plenty of women use bikes
as transport in Europe, but according to him, not many are interested
in cycling as a sport (or whatever we could call Randonneuring in this
context.) His wife is probably one of his data points: she can turn in
a 2:40 marathon, but isn't much interested in bikes. So even though
proportionately more women in Europe own a bike that they ride
regularly, that bike is much less likely than an American woman's bike
to have been ridden 100k or more at at a shot. So I gather.
Anyway, women and bikes have a long history together, and I hope that
history inspires an equally glorious future.
Yiping Lin
I should emphasize that I was shocked by the low participation (PBP) from women in European countries, some even 0%. I didn't expect that.
Yiping
Jan Heine
about randonneuring is how female riders were
accepted on equal terms. Vélocio's group had
women riding in the late 19th century. There were
quite some characters, who wrote in Le Cycliste
under various pseudonyms. I am particularly taken
by "Mad. Seymour," who provided candid views of
the "great master" and his proselythizing about
vegetarianism.
The first PBP in 1891 had several women sign up,
but they were not allowed to start. Racing was
still a men's world. However, the first
cyclotourists to ride in PBP were the
constructeur Desvages with his young cashier
Juliette Gasnier. They rode the 1200 km event,
ahead of the race, in 121 hours. It was an
"exhibition," but it opened the way for the
randonneur event the next time PBP came around in
1931.
Mademoiselle Gasnier by then had become Madame
Pitard, and with her husband, she rode the next
three PBP events in 1931, 1948 and 1951. So over
a period of 30 years, Juliette Gasnier/Pitard
rode in every PBP...
There were many other notable female randonneurs
in the 1930s and 1940. Paulette Porthault was one
of them, she is featured on the Bicycle Quarterly
home page at
Madame Rebour, the wife of the famous
illustrator, also was a strong rider. The ACP
ledgers list her as the female record-holder for
the 200 km brevet, ridden in 6:54 hours!
Odette Seurin, riding with Gillet, set numerous
record, including a mixed tandem record in PBP
in 1951. That record was broken only 48 years
later, during a year that featured tailwinds in
both directions!
There were women's categories in the Technical
Trials, too. And the Poly de Chanteloup hillclimb
race included a mixed tandem category that was
hotly contested. (Paulette Porthault won it in
1942, and Lyli Herse, daughter of the famous
constructeur won it about ten times, with various
captains.)
More recently, there have been Melinda Lyon, who
completed almost every PBP she started in Charly
Miller time, often arriving as the first female
overall. Brigitte Kerlouet mounted an impressive
performance in PBP, with a time that was not far
behind the fastest men.
There are many more: Madeleine Jouan was "like a
motor on the back of a tandem," Gilbert Bulté
once told me, and the list goes on.
But these incredibly fast women were not the only
female randonneurs. There were many who rode in
brevets, both as Audax and randonneurs.
The participation of females has been one of the
proud hallmarks that make randonneuring special.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com
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Jan Heine
>FWIW, I'd love to be able to link to a blog entry along these lines.
In fact, we are working on a much larger story on
women in randonneuring for Bicycle Quarterly. We
featured Paulette Porthault before, but there are
so many women who deserve to be mentioned.
For more on Madame Porthault, see
http://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/the-aunt/
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com
Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
>On Nov 30, 10:57 am, Jan Heine <hein...@earthlink.net> wrote:
MG
I'm intrigued by your post, and appreciate being introduced to some
strong female randonneurs through your writing.
However, I'm not understanding your comment about women being accepted
on equal terms and that female participation hallmark that makes
randonneuring special. Do you mean that women who wanted to
participate could and were not excluded?
Speaking just from my own experience, I don't feel like women have yet
been accepted on equal terms. Have you seen the women's bathrooms at
PBP (just kidding, sort of)?
Also, how can the gap in female to male participation indicate that
female participation is a hallmark that makes randonneuring special?
It doesn't make sense to me.
Again, from my own vantage point, I have not felt that women are
accepted on "equal terms" in randonneuring so maybe you could help me
close the gap on where you're coming from.
Thanks,
Mary Gersema
On Nov 30, 2:40 pm, Jan Heine <hein...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> At 11:12 AM -0800 11/30/11, Keith Snyder wrote:
>
> >FWIW, I'd love to be able to link to a blog entry along these lines.
>
> In fact, we are working on a much larger story on
> women in randonneuring for Bicycle Quarterly. We
> featured Paulette Porthault before, but there are
> so many women who deserve to be mentioned.
>
> For more on Madame Porthault, see
>
> http://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/the-aunt/
>
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> >http://groups.google.com/group/randon?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Susan Otcenas
Ha! Disgusting, is what they were. And, no joke, the sanitary
conditions for female riders are one big reason why I may not go back.
(I still can't get the image out of my head of the male rider in
Villaines La Juhel on the return trip, standing in the middle of the
ladies room, shorts around his ankles, lubing himself up
enthusiastically...). <shudder> Tinteniac on the return leg was
disgusting too. No TP in the bathrooms, no soap or paper towels at the
sink. Dirty floors, counters awash in water. Yuk.
And, ponder this: If female riders were valued at PBP, don't you think
there would be bathrooms available somewhere before 140km? While the
men can just pull over and whip it out without ever having to lift their
legs over the top tube, I found it astonishing that it was simply
accepted and expected that the women would have to go pee on someone's
property behind a bush somewhere in the pitch black.
I would have happily paid a higher entry fee if it would have meant more
bathrooms and cleaner (heck, just clean) facilities.
Susan
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-----Original Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Eric Keller
>> Have you seen the women's bathrooms at PBP (just kidding, sort of)?Ha! Disgusting, is what they were.
Having said that, it's not that hard to find a place to hide by the side of the road
Eric
Eric Norris
Jan Heine
I am comparing this to racing. I don't know
whether you know the harrowing story of Alfonsina
Strada, the first woman (and only one) to ride in
the Giro d'Italia?
http://www.radiomarconi.com/marconi/alfonsina/alfonsina_inglese.html
Imagine if she had been a randonneur! She would
be celebrated, rather than dying forgotten and
bitter.
In racing, to this day, women are second-class
riders. The great Tours get all the attention,
but women's races always struggle to stay afloat.
I have seen them all come and go, from the Tour
Féminine to the Ore-Ida Stage Race.
In randonneuring, there never was a question of
saying: "You are a woman, therefore, you cannot
start." In fact, if you want, the same time
limits apply, which truly accepts women on equal
terms. (Whether that is good or not is another
issue, and as a guy, I don't take a position on
that.)
There were, in the 1930s and 1940s, "Brevets
Féminins" with the same time limits, but usually
only 150 km long. Those did a lot to get more
women started in the sport. But that is the only
time I can find where randonneuring had a policy
that mentioned gender.
> >From my own vantage point, I just have not felt that women are
>accepted on "equal terms" in randonneuring so maybe you could help me
>close the gap on where you're coming from.
How the individual attitudes of randonneurs play
out may be a different issue, and I am sorry to
hear that you don't feel accepted.
How to make the sport more welcoming to women,
younger riders, new riders, etc., is another
issue, and one that I hope RUSA's leadership is
considering. After all, a cycling organization in
which more than 80% of members are older than 40
years old, and more than 80% are male.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com
Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
At 11:14 AM -0800 11/30/11, MG wrote:
>Jan,
>
>I'm intrigued by your post, and appreciate being introduced to some
>strong female randonneurs through your writing.
>
>However, I'm not understanding your comment about women being accepted
>on equal terms and that female participation hallmark that makes
>randonneuring special. Do you mean that women who wanted to
>participate could and were not excluded?
>
>>From my own experience as a female randonneur, I don't feel like women
>have yet been accepted on equal terms. Have you seen the women's
>bathrooms at PBP (just kidding, sort of)? Also, how can the gap in
>female to male participation indicate that female participation is a
>hallmark that makes randonneuring special? It doesn't make sense to
>me.
>
> >From my own vantage point, I just have not felt that women are
>accepted on "equal terms" in randonneuring so maybe you could help me
>close the gap on where you're coming from.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mary Gersema
>
William Watts
thought to steps that might be taken to make randonneuring more
welcoming to women. I don't know the statistics, but it is my sense
that women are well represented at marathons and other endurance
sports, and I can't see a very good reason why this should be the case
in randonneuring as well.
Having said that, though, I want to make two additional points.
First, bathroom facilities at PBP were pretty disgusting and sometimes
difficult for men as well as for women. Perhaps more consideration
should be given to the balance between male and female facilities, but
I think the sheer volume of people passing through limited facilities,
and the need for people to do their business quickly makes this a
daunting task. One thing I learned early on was that there are
bathrooms near the Church in most small towns. These were not always
the cleanest, and you had to bring your own toilet paper, but I found
them far more convenient and pleasant than the control restrooms. And,
while the mechanics of relief are generally easier for men than for
women, I found the standards of PBP fairly modest, and, unlike
domestic brevets, men also generally looked for a bush or tree to
shield them as they peed.
Secondly, while women were underrepresented at PBP, they were
nevertheless a visible and important part of the event. Since I
finished the event in 88 hours, I got passed by a fair number of
people, and I was impressed by the number of strong female cyclists on
the road. As I was approaching Fougeres on the return, I was passed
by Sophie Matter, and she was only one of the many impressive women
who flew past me.
For what it is worth, it seems to me that the organizers of PBP have
made a point of including women in their pictures of the event, and of
celebrating the accomplishments of women. But if there are real steps
that can be taken to make PBP and other events more appealing to
women, then, by all means, let's take them. This would, after all, be
best for the sport.
Bill Watts
> ...
>
> read more »
Steve Palincsar
> I do think that RUSA, ACP and other organizations should give serious
> thought to steps that might be taken to make randonneuring more
> welcoming to women. I don't know the statistics, but it is my sense
> that women are well represented at marathons and other endurance
> sports, and I can't see a very good reason why this should be the case
> in randonneuring as well.
>
> Having said that, though, I want to make two additional points.
>
> First, bathroom facilities at PBP were pretty disgusting and sometimes
> difficult for men as well as for women. Perhaps more consideration
> should be given to the balance between male and female facilities, but
> I think the sheer volume of people passing through limited facilities,
> and the need for people to do their business quickly makes this a
> daunting task. One thing I learned early on was that there are
> bathrooms near the Church in most small towns. These were not always
> the cleanest, and you had to bring your own toilet paper, but I found
> them far more convenient and pleasant than the control restrooms. And,
> while the mechanics of relief are generally easier for men than for
> women, I found the standards of PBP fairly modest, and, unlike
> domestic brevets, men also generally looked for a bush or tree to
> shield them as they peed.
>
And how do you figure RUSA could improve that situation?
Richard Glover
Jan Heine
>First, bathroom facilities at PBP were pretty disgusting and sometimes
>difficult for men as well as for women.
It is unfortunate that the bathrooms at mass events tend to become
disgusting. When you read the instructions of Porta-Potties, you see
that they are designed to be used by 10 users before being cleaned.
For 5000 riders, you'd need 500 Porta-Potties... PBP was nice in that
they had flushing toilets that were cleaned frequently during the
ride. Wait, I hear many say, how come they were so disgusting? The
simple fact is that too many riders used them in too short a time.
During PBP, I used the bathrooms on the way out. They were clean.
Clearly, they had been scrubbed to the highest standards before the
start of the ride. On the way back, the bathrooms again were clean
when I used them. (I didn't even try in Loudeac, where I met the big
"wave" of riders.) Clearly, the bathrooms had been cleaned since the
outgoing 5000 riders had been through.
I also did not encounter long lines for food, and even had volunteers
insist on carrying my food to my table. I had people ask me about my
roadrash and whether I needed medical attention. Friends who rode
separately, but at a similar pace, report the same "VIP" experience.
It appears that the services of "our" PBP were quite different from
those experienced by the majority of riders.
When you look at the statistics of PBP riders and when they arrive at
controls, you realize that 80% of riders arrive within the last few
hours before the cut-off. Imagine 4000 riders descending on a school,
and using the bathrooms on somewhat wobbly legs. At the same time,
volunteers are asked to provide food, stamp cards, organize medical
and mechanical help, etc., for this mass of people. It is next to
impossible. I talked to the volunteers who were anticipating this
onslaught, and they were quite daunted by their task.
One thing to bear in mind is that it was not the volunteers or
organizers who made the bathrooms disgusting. All the filth you saw
there came from us, the riders.
If you want to find clean facilities and generally make life easier
for the volunteers, you may consider spreading out a bit, so the
volunteers can stay on top of things. Barging into a control in a
group of 3000 riders makes it very hard for the volunteers. If the
5000 riders spread out evenly over the 45 hours between the maximum
and minimum time limit, there would be just 111 riders per hour.
Instead, we see 600-800 riders per hour during the peak, or one rider
arriving every 6 seconds.
Now I understand that it is impossible to ask 111 riders to finish in
45 hours, another 111 in 46 hours and so on, but just increasing your
speed (or shortening your stops) by 10% would get you ahead of the
crowds and food lines, and into clean bathrooms. Plus, it would
really help the volunteers in managing the workload.
(This also would make life easier for those randonneurs who really
cannot ride faster than the time limit. Imagine doing PBP as you age,
and going from a VIP experience to long lines, disgusting bathrooms,
etc., as you get older and your speed naturally decreases.)
Beyond that, French bathrooms tend to be constructed differently from
ours. That is part of the cultural experience of traveling to foreign
cultures. France is not the U.S. At PBP, you won't find ice even
during hot days, you won't find many toilets with seats (the French
prefer their toilets easy-to-clean and no-touch), and you won't find
Coca-Cola in gallon-sized cups. On the plus side, you find things
that are rare in the U.S., like well-prepared, healthy and easily
digested foods, bakeries with excellent pastries, century-old
villages, quiet backroads, and the company of riders from all over
the world.
Susan Otcenas
>>I talked to the volunteers who were anticipating this onslaught, and
they were quite daunted by their task.
As I said, I would have happily paid more money for more bathrooms and
cleaner facilities, and I'd wager I'm not alone. Hiring PAID bathroom
attendants to continually staff and clean the bathrooms during the 5-10
hours that the crush descends on each controle would be easily covered
by a small increase in the entry fee. An extra 5 Euro x 5000 people is
25,000 euros (nearly $40,000 US), and would likely cover it handily and
provide a cleaner, sanitary, and more satisfying experience for
everyone.
>>Imagine doing PBP as you age, and going from a VIP experience to long
lines, disgusting bathrooms, etc., as you get older and your speed
naturally decreases.
Yeah, imagine. Oh no, wait, neither I nor the 80% of us who arrive in
the "last few hours" have to imagine that, because those long lines and
disgusting bathrooms are precisely what we get. Kudos to you for being
an elite rider and getting clean bathrooms ahead of the masses, but your
experience simply is not reflective of what most of the rest of us see.
It's far easier for me to pay 5 euros than it is to get the VIP
experience by riding in 45-50 hours (ha!), or even to "just increase my
speed by 10%". Yeah, "just". Suggesting that more of us should become
faster so that we get cleaner bathrooms ahead of the hordes is, I'm
sorry, rather ridiculous. My 88:45 finish was a major accomplishment in
my life, one of which I am immensely proud of, and I find offensive the
implication that I should just have to accept filthy bathrooms as a
consequence of being slow(er).
Susan
PS: I would like to suggest that a RUSA volunteer take on a project of
surveying the US PBP riders for feedback on our experiences at this
year's PBP, then provide a report back to PBP on the results of that
survey. I think such a survey wouls allow us to give kudos to ACP for
everything wed love and they did right, and to give constructive
criticism on the things that need some improvement in 2015.
And yes, I will happily volunteer to spearhead this project, if someone
will step up to help me with writing questions, etc. HOWEVER, I will
only take on the project if the RUSA Board pledges to actually provide
the feedback to ACP. Otherwise, we are just talking to ourselves with
no hope for a change in outcomes for 2015.
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Jan Heine
>My 88:45 finish was a major accomplishment in
>my life, one of which I am immensely proud of, and I find offensive the
>implication that I should just have to accept filthy bathrooms as a
>consequence of being slow(er).
Susan,
I am sorry you read it that way. This was not what I intended at all.
You rightly are proud of your PBP finish, which is a great
accomplishment. I never meant to suggest that you or any specific
rider should ride faster.
I was thinking of the many riders whose write things like "I had
plenty of time in the bank, so I slowed down and stopped longer." We
did an analysis of PBP finishing times, the first part of which was
published in the Winter 2011 Bicycle Quarterly. We found that in the
1950s, very few riders finished just before the time limit, but the
riders were much more spread out.
My suggestion was that those who CAN ride faster do so. This would
help those riders like you, who cannot ride faster. Note that this is
just a suggestion - I am not saying that anybody is wrong to linger
at controls, but the fact is that they take up a seat. That seat,
whether in the cafeteria or in the bathroom (technically not a seat
in French bathrooms!) is not available to other riders.
In fact, French riders already are encouraged to choose the 80-hour
start, so that the 90-hour slots are available for the foreigners who
come to PBP. I spoke to a number of riders who told me that they
wanted to ride in the 90-hour group, but were asked to move to the
80-hour group. By having almost 25% of PBP participants ride ahead of
the main group, at a slightly faster pace, the crowding in the
controls already is reduced. If more riders could be encouraged to do
this, the crowding would be alleviated further.
Again, I am not suggesting that riders suddenly double their
on-the-road speed, but that they think about the bathrooms, food
lines and their fellow riders and volunteers when they plan their PBP
schedule.
Most of all, it helps to remember that PBP is a volunteer-driven
event, which charges a very small fee. It's not a for-profit venture,
but something run by people who sacrifice their spare time to do
this. This should set a framework for our expectations. Participating
PBP is not like booking a vacation with a profit-making venture,
where you are entitled to good customer service. It is more like
being taken in by a family during a bicycle trip.
Your suggestion of hiring staff to clean the bathrooms during the
rush times may be worth pursuing, but you have to remember that
currently, the organizers of PBP do not hire anybody! As a small
business owner, I can tell you that every additional process requires
a huge amount of work if you are not set up to do it. Hiring and
supervising a crew of cleaners for each control is a task that would
require another volunteer.
The technical aspect would not be easy, either. It would require
closing the bathrooms for 5-10 minutes while they are cleaned. With
riders arriving every 6 seconds, even if only every third rider
wanted to use the bathroom, the line would get long very quickly...
A suggestion that may be easier to implement is to ask male
participants not to use the women's rest rooms. After all, during the
early hours, there is no need to do so - no lines at the men's room -
and during the later hours, more women need the bathrooms
themselves... but of course, that would make the crowding at the
men's bathrooms even worse.
Bruce...@gdc4s.com
> that they are designed to be used by 10 users before being cleaned.
- Bruce
Richard James
Wayne J
It would be a shame if anyone was deterred from particpating because
of the bathrooms. For me, the most difficult aspects were time
pressure (until the last day, when I finally felt sure I would make
it) and lack of sleep. The bathrooms were dirty, but that seemed
insignificant, at least from my male perspective.
I can see why its more of a problem for women. Some of the weeds on
the side of the road are stinging nettle! That stuff hurt my shins,
and I'm glad I wasn't crouching.
--Wayne
Dan Driscoll
you want more females in RUSA go find them, they are all over the place.
Recruit them yourself one by one, mentor them, help them, congratulate them,
become part of their goals, and most importantly ride with them. It might
just be the most fun thing you've ever done, and it's not that hard to do.
Post a note that you would like more girls to show up, hand them a brevet
card and tell them to have fun and you may never see them again. DD
-----Original Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
William Watts
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 9:49 PM
To: randon
Subject: [Randon] Re: Female cyclists in PBP
Bill Watts
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From: Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net>
To: MG <maryg...@gmail.com>; randon <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:27 PM
Subject: [Randon] Re: Female cyclists in PBP
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John Hughes
- Carbs: I'm not recommending covering your plate with dessert and a small portion of meat! I'm recommending primarily unprocessed/unrefined grains (bread, cereal, rice, pasta, potatoes, etc), fruits and vegetables. Unprocessed in general have a much lower Glycemic Index, i.e., don't cause your blood sugar to rise rapidly. In Distance Cycling we recommend that carbs make up 60% of your daily calories. 1 gm of carbs has 4 calories.
- Sugar: Sugar per se isn't bad—had some on my oatmeal this morning. Overconsumption of sugar (or fat or beer or ....) is bad. Moderation.
- Protein. We need protein to rebuild tissue but it's not a source of energy except by a metabolically inefficient process known as gluconeogenesis, i.e., converting protein to glycogen for use by the muscles. The conversion process takes more energy than digesting complex carbs. In the book we recommend that protein provide 15% of your daily calories. 1 gm of protein has 4 calories.
- Fat: I ask every athlete I coach to complete a 3-day log writing down everything the rider eats. Although there are exceptions, in general 30%+ of the calories are coming from fat. I'm not recommending no fat, but cutting back. In the book we recommend 25% of your daily calories from fat. 1 gm of fat has 9 calories. That's why cutting back on fat is one of the easiest ways to reduce caloric intake.
- Nancy Clark, MS and Jenny Hegmann, MS, The Cyclist's Food Guide. Both have advanced degrees in nutrition and specialize in sports nutrition. We used this as a significant resource in writing Distance Cycling and Jenny contributed to the book. http://www.nancyclarkrd.com/books/cyclistsfoodguide.asp
- Clark's the Sports Nutrition Guidebook. http://www.nancyclarkrd.com/books/sportsnutrition.asp
- The Swiss Food Pyramid for Athletes. This is the only food pyramid designed for athletes with ways to adapt it based on level of activity. It recommends increased carbohydrate consumption. Description here: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Swiss_develop_food_pyramid_for_athletes.html?cid=6414340 and download pyramid here: http://www.sfsn.ethz.ch/pyramid_en/index_EN
- Mediterranean diet with emphasis on complex carbs and seafood as the primary protein. They emphasize physical activity and enjoying meals with others ... and wine in moderation :-)
- I've already recommended the FDAs website http://www.choosemyplate.gov/ Their recommendations, like the others, emphasize whole grains, fruits and vegetables. http://www.choosemyplate.gov/ They have an interactive feature to provide a personalized plan.
- Susan Barr, Ph.D. Susan is on the faculty of University of British Columbia in Nutrition and a veteran randonneuse, having done the RM1200 (with me) and PBP. She's a long-time friend and mentor of mine and wrote a terrific article on how to estimate your caloric requirements during a long event and how to meet them. She says that during a long event your body will burn whatever you are feeding it (bring on the burritos!), but a particular risk is not consuming enough carbohydrate: http://www.coach-hughes.com/resources/calories.html
- What the pros eat. This summer I interviewed riders, coaches and a chef with teams Garmin Cervelo, RadioShack and Sky on what the riders eat during stage races: before, during and after each stage. I vetted the information with Susan and wrote an article: http://www.coach-hughes.com/resources/homemade_cycling_nutrition.html
Cheers,
John
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/randon/topics
- Female cyclists in PBP [13 Updates]
- Weight Management [5 Updates]
- FW: [Randon] Weight Management [1 Update]
- Off-Road Brevets [2 Updates]
Keith Snyder <ke...@woollymammoth.com> Nov 30 11:12AM -0800
FWIW, I'd love to be able to link to a blog entry along these lines.
Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> Nov 30 11:40AM -0800
At 11:12 AM -0800 11/30/11, Keith Snyder wrote:
>FWIW, I'd love to be able to link to a blog entry along these lines.
In fact, we are working on a much larger story on
women in randonneuring for Bicycle Quarterly. We
featured Paulette Porthault before, but there are
so many women who deserve to be mentioned.
For more on Madame Porthault, see
http://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/the-aunt/
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com
Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
MG <maryg...@gmail.com> Nov 30 12:51PM -0800
Jan,
I'm intrigued by your post, and appreciate being introduced to some
strong female randonneurs through your writing.
However, I'm not understanding your comment about women being accepted
on equal terms and that female participation hallmark that makes
randonneuring special. Do you mean that women who wanted to
participate could and were not excluded?
Speaking just from my own experience, I don't feel like women have yet
been accepted on equal terms. Have you seen the women's bathrooms at
PBP (just kidding, sort of)?
Also, how can the gap in female to male participation indicate that
female participation is a hallmark that makes randonneuring special?
It doesn't make sense to me.
Again, from my own vantage point, I have not felt that women are
accepted on "equal terms" in randonneuring so maybe you could help me
close the gap on where you're coming from.
Thanks,
Mary Gersema
"Susan Otcenas" <su...@teamestrogen.com> Nov 30 01:15PM -0800
>> Have you seen the women's bathrooms at PBP (just kidding, sort of)?
Ha! Disgusting, is what they were. And, no joke, the sanitary
conditions for female riders are one big reason why I may not go back.
(I still can't get the image out of my head of the male rider in
Villaines La Juhel on the return trip, standing in the middle of the
ladies room, shorts around his ankles, lubing himself up
enthusiastically...). <shudder> Tinteniac on the return leg was
disgusting too. No TP in the bathrooms, no soap or paper towels at the
sink. Dirty floors, counters awash in water. Yuk.
And, ponder this: If female riders were valued at PBP, don't you think
there would be bathrooms available somewhere before 140km? While the
men can just pull over and whip it out without ever having to lift their
legs over the top tube, I found it astonishing that it was simply
accepted and expected that the women would have to go pee on someone's
property behind a bush somewhere in the pitch black.
I would have happily paid a higher entry fee if it would have meant more
bathrooms and cleaner (heck, just clean) facilities.
Susan
***********************************************
Susan Otcenas
Team Estrogen, Inc.
www.TeamEstrogen.com
877-310-4592
***********************************************
Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!
Look for "teamestrogen.com"
***********************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of MG
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:51 PM
To: randon
Subject: [Randon] Re: Female cyclists in PBP
Jan,
I'm intrigued by your post, and appreciate being introduced to some
strong female randonneurs through your writing.
However, I'm not understanding your comment about women being accepted
on equal terms and that female participation hallmark that makes
randonneuring special. Do you mean that women who wanted to participate
could and were not excluded?
Speaking just from my own experience, I don't feel like women have yet
been accepted on equal terms. Have you seen the women's bathrooms at PBP
(just kidding, sort of)?
Also, how can the gap in female to male participation indicate that
female participation is a hallmark that makes randonneuring special?
It doesn't make sense to me.
Again, from my own vantage point, I have not felt that women are
accepted on "equal terms" in randonneuring so maybe you could help me
close the gap on where you're coming from.
Thanks,
Mary Gersema
Eric Keller <eeke...@psu.edu> Nov 30 04:41PM -0500
> >> Have you seen the women's bathrooms at PBP (just kidding, sort of)?
> Ha! Disgusting, is what they were.
> It's amazing how disgusting every bathroom along the route is given how
often you see riders by the side of the road relieving themselves. I was
prepared for the worst, and experienced worse than that. For example, I
expected to see toilet seats and was somewhat disappointed. I suppose the
portapotty industry in France is under-developed.
Having said that, it's not that hard to find a place to hide by the side of
the road
Eric
Eric Norris <campyo...@me.com> Nov 30 02:05PM -0800
I think that cultural standards regarding toilet use are somewhat different in France. I recall:
-- Men's and women's restroom facilities at the secret control on the return that shared common sinks. It was possible to look over the sink and into the adjoining other-sex restroom.
-- Tufts of white toilet paper amongst the trees in one of the large parks on the north side of Paris. My friend and I checked a map and found that it was some 2 kilometers from where we were to the nearest restroom--and this in a major urban park. No wonder the Parisians did their business in the woods.
--Eric N
Sent from my iPad2
Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> Nov 30 02:27PM -0800
William Watts <wwa...@butler.edu> Nov 30 07:48PM -0800
Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> Dec 01 07:44AM -0500
On Wed, 2011-11-30 at 19:48 -0800, William Watts wrote:
> women, I found the standards of PBP fairly modest, and, unlike
> domestic brevets, men also generally looked for a bush or tree to
> shield them as they peed.
And how do you figure RUSA could improve that situation?
Richard Glover <richard....@gmail.com> Dec 01 08:14AM -0500
*
*
Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> Dec 01 07:15AM -0800
At 7:48 PM -0800 11/30/11, William Watts wrote:
>First, bathroom facilities at PBP were pretty disgusting and sometimes
>difficult for men as well as for women.
It is unfortunate that the bathrooms at mass events tend to become
disgusting. When you read the instructions of Porta-Potties, you see
that they are designed to be used by 10 users before being cleaned.
villages, quiet backroads, and the company of riders from all over
the world.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com
Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
"Susan Otcenas" <su...@teamestrogen.com> Dec 01 09:18AM -0800
>>I talked to the volunteers who were anticipating this onslaught, and
they were quite daunted by their task.
As I said, I would have happily paid more money for more bathrooms and
cleaner facilities, and I'd wager I'm not alone. Hiring PAID bathroom
attendants to continually staff and clean the bathrooms during the 5-10
hours that the crush descends on each controle would be easily covered
by a small increase in the entry fee. An extra 5 Euro x 5000 people is
25,000 euros (nearly $40,000 US), and would likely cover it handily and
provide a cleaner, sanitary, and more satisfying experience for
everyone.
>>Imagine doing PBP as you age, and going from a VIP experience to long
lines, disgusting bathrooms, etc., as you get older and your speed
naturally decreases.
Yeah, imagine. Oh no, wait, neither I nor the 80% of us who arrive in
the "last few hours" have to imagine that, because those long lines and
disgusting bathrooms are precisely what we get. Kudos to you for being
an elite rider and getting clean bathrooms ahead of the masses, but your
experience simply is not reflective of what most of the rest of us see.
It's far easier for me to pay 5 euros than it is to get the VIP
experience by riding in 45-50 hours (ha!), or even to "just increase my
speed by 10%". Yeah, "just". Suggesting that more of us should become
faster so that we get cleaner bathrooms ahead of the hordes is, I'm
sorry, rather ridiculous. My 88:45 finish was a major accomplishment in
my life, one of which I am immensely proud of, and I find offensive the
implication that I should just have to accept filthy bathrooms as a
consequence of being slow(er).
Susan
PS: I would like to suggest that a RUSA volunteer take on a project of
surveying the US PBP riders for feedback on our experiences at this
year's PBP, then provide a report back to PBP on the results of that
survey. I think such a survey wouls allow us to give kudos to ACP for
everything wed love and they did right, and to give constructive
criticism on the things that need some improvement in 2015.
And yes, I will happily volunteer to spearhead this project, if someone
will step up to help me with writing questions, etc. HOWEVER, I will
only take on the project if the RUSA Board pledges to actually provide
the feedback to ACP. Otherwise, we are just talking to ourselves with
no hope for a change in outcomes for 2015.
***********************************************
Susan Otcenas
Team Estrogen, Inc.
www.TeamEstrogen.com
877-310-4592
***********************************************
Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!
Look for "teamestrogen.com"
***********************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Jan Heine
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 7:16 AM
To: William Watts; randon
Subject: [Randon] Bathrooms in PBP
At 7:48 PM -0800 11/30/11, William Watts wrote:
>First, bathroom facilities at PBP were pretty disgusting and sometimes
>difficult for men as well as for women.
It is unfortunate that the bathrooms at mass events tend to become
disgusting. When you read the instructions of Porta-Potties, you see
that they are designed to be used by 10 users before being cleaned.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com
Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
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Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> Dec 01 09:53AM -0800
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com
Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
John Hughes <coachjo...@gmail.com> Nov 30 05:31PM -0700
This time of year many of us are concerned about managing our weight during
the off-season, especially the holidays. We did a lot of research for the
chapter in nutrition in *Distance Cycling*, which covers day to day
nutrition, weight management and nutrition during rides. A few observations:
- As a local pro told me it's simple, "ride more, eat less." It does
come down to calories in / calories out.
- No particular food type is good or bad in terms of weight management;
remember the guy who lost large amounts eating at Subway every day?
- What counts is control. I have a friend who practices push-aways. He
pushes himself away from the table before seconds.
- Dieting doesn't work, because it feels like a sacrifice. Once I lose
XX lbs I can go back to eating what I like.
- Permanently changing to a more healthy lifestyle does work: reducing
calories by not more than 20% of you daily requirement and increasing
activities.
- When I was in China Prof. Weimo Zhu from U. IL made a convincing case
that increasing obesity is a result of increasing use of labor-saving
devices: less manual labor, getting a ride to school instead of
walking/cycling, using a power mower, a dishwasher, an elevator, etc. Easy
for all of us to make some small changes here.
- Eating unprocessed grains, fruits and vegetables is important because
they contain more vitamins and minerals.
- We don't need a lot of protein. Think of protein as a condiment. At
dinner it should be about the size of a deck of cards and carbs should
cover your plate.
- Look for every opportunity to cut back on fats. By low- or non-fat
whenever possible.
- Don't get carried away by all the rules. After our ride today my
friend and I had pizza and beer!
- A great resource for good nutrition and weight management is the
USDA's http://www.choosemyplate.gov/
Yours for a healthy *and happy* life!
--
Cheers,
John Hughes
www.coach-hughes.com
PO Box 18028
Boulder, CO 80308-1028
Erik Nilsson <erik.nilss...@gmail.com> Nov 30 09:01PM -0800
That's one theory. In my experience, people are quite different, and
people change over time. As for me, eating low-fiber carbs leaves me
satisfied approximately never. I bet if I was locked in a room full of
semolina, I could double my weight in six months without really
trying.
There's good evidence that our gut bacteria have a big impact on how
much and what we want to eat. So "we" aren't even the whole story: the
friends we carry with us are important. Maybe somebody will figure out
how to put that information to practical use soon.
Where are all these kids with type-2 diabetes coming from? Nobody
really knows, but they drink a lot of soda pop and they don't move
around much, and they're huge. There are a bunch of kids in my son's
school who can't run the length of a city block.
And I think dieting gets a bad rap. We're designed to handle periodic
food shortage, harvest seasons, fish runs, and so on. Dieting off
weight and putting it back on isn't so bad, compared to putting it on
and then putting it on. Doing anything forever is hard. That's like
saying "I'm going to be at peak strength and endurance forever." Never
happens. Your body can't and won't do it. Why should weight be
different? Dieting is mass training.
But of course activity is good, and any extended period of sloth is
dangerous. I loose weight when I'm happy. I'm happy when I'm busy.
When I'm bored and unhappy, I start rummaging around the house for
something to put in my mouth and chew on.
I try to avoid deep fried food. Fryer oil oxidizes, and oxidized oil
is probably really, really bad for you.
The number one thing that makes me eat above caloric need? Naproxen.
Upsets my stomach in a way much like hunger. Sinus drainage from
allergies seems to do that somewhat too, but I also have generalized
inflammation when my allergies are acting up, and that may screw up my
appetite/metabolism too.
Chicken eggs are my favorite food. Protein and delicious, nutritious
cholesterol. Mmm. I like to keep my cholesterol intake from getting
too low. My blood LDL-C is fine, BTW, that's not surprising, because
dietary cholesterol intake and blood cholesterol aren't so clearly
particularly related.
Any way, I've been skinny, and I've been thick. I dropped 50 pounds a
few years ago. Nothing special. Stopped eating a big breakfast when I
wasn't really hungry. Mostly, I cut carbs way back and left everything
else pretty much the same. Didn't miss 'em. At first, carboloading was
fun, but any more, it's just one more thing I have to do before an
event.
Old5ten <old5...@gmail.com> Nov 30 09:04PM -0800
> - Look for every opportunity to cut back on fats. By low- or non-fat
> whenever possible.
> there's no research supporting this and plenty against it. be selective
in the types of fat you consume, but by no means cut them out!
> - A great resource for good nutrition and weight management is the
> USDA's http://www.choosemyplate.gov/
> i'd recommend
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid/research
based and without the food lobby influence.
elmar
"joekr...@comcast.net" <joekr...@comcast.net> Dec 01 06:52AM -0800
Add a couple of tablespoons of peanut butter to your steel cut oatmeal and you will not feel hunger for many hours.
Sent with Verizon Mobile Email
---Original Message---
From: "Susan Otcenas" <su...@teamestrogen.com>
Sent: 12/1/2011 9:36 am
To: "randon" <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: FW: [Randon] Weight Management
* We don't need a lot of protein. Think of protein as a
condiment. At dinner it should be about the size of a deck of cards and
carbs should cover your plate.
* Look for every opportunity to cut back on fats. By low- or
non-fat whenever possible.
I think you may find a lot of disagreement here.
Many people find that carbs burn right through them, while protein and
fats provide a much greater feeling a satiety and "stick to the ribs"
more. Feeling full longer ==> snacking less between meals. As much as
I LOVE steel cut oats for breakfast, a couple of eggs scrambled with
plenty of veggies leaves me much more satisfied.
Choosing low and no fat options can sometimes be a bad idea, unless you
are a very diligent label reader. Many low fat and no fat products are
stuffed with added sugars or artificial ingredients instead. Ever
look at the ingredients in a typical container of lowfat or non-fat
yogurt?
Rather than "cover my plate" in carbs (which most people will interpret
to mean bread, rice, pasta, or other grain-based food), I choose to fill
at least half my plate with fresh vegetables. Low calorie, nutrient
dense, and filling.
Preparing for, riding, or recovering from a workout is a whole different
ballgame. My nutrition in that case is much more carb oriented to allow
me quick access to calories during a workout & to replenish glycogen
stores post-workout. But as far as off-season & holiday
weight-management meals go, I don't think that a carb-rich diet is
necessary, or even necessarily advisable.
Of course, I'm not a dietician, but I do spend a lot of time reading up
on this subject, and there's a wide variance in recommendations out
there. I guess, in the end, we have to figure out what works best for
us as individuals.
Susan
________________________________
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of John Hughes
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:31 PM
To: randon
Subject: [Randon] Weight Management
This time of year many of us are concerned about managing our weight
during the off-season, especially the holidays. We did a lot of
research for the chapter in nutrition in Distance Cycling, which covers
day to day nutrition, weight management and nutrition during rides. A
few observations:
* As a local pro told me it's simple, "ride more, eat less." It
does come down to calories in / calories out.
* No particular food type is good or bad in terms of weight
management; remember the guy who lost large amounts eating at Subway
every day?
* What counts is control. I have a friend who practices
push-aways. He pushes himself away from the table before seconds.
* Dieting doesn't work, because it feels like a sacrifice. Once I
lose XX lbs I can go back to eating what I like.
* Permanently changing to a more healthy lifestyle does work:
reducing calories by not more than 20% of you daily requirement and
increasing activities.
* When I was in China Prof. Weimo Zhu from U. IL made a convincing
case that increasing obesity is a result of increasing use of
labor-saving devices: less manual labor, getting a ride to school
instead of walking/cycling, using a power mower, a dishwasher, an
elevator, etc. Easy for all of us to make some small changes here.
* Eating unprocessed grains, fruits and vegetables is important
because they contain more vitamins and minerals.
* We don't need a lot of protein. Think of protein as a
condiment. At dinner it should be about the size of a deck of cards and
carbs should cover your plate.
* Look for every opportunity to cut back on fats. By low- or
non-fat whenever possible.
* Don't get carried away by all the rules. After our ride today
my friend and I had pizza and beer!
* A great resource for good nutrition and weight management is the
USDA's http://www.choosemyplate.gov/
Yours for a healthy and happy life!
--
Cheers,
John Hughes
www.coach-hughes.com
PO Box 18028
Boulder, CO 80308-1028
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Scott Allen <sall...@pacbell.net> Dec 01 07:24AM -0800
Talking from the point of view of someone who used to tip the scales at over 440 pounds, I am one of those people who get no satiety from carbs. Actually if I start eating carbs it just makes me crave more carbs.
Carbs are great for a quick source of energy but I do much better on protein and green leafy fillers. They provide me with that feeling of fullness that I don't get with carbs.
Additionally many people mistake a need for fluid as hunger. I try to give myself some fluids first and wait a short period of time to see if that "head hunger" goes away. If it does than I wasn't really hungry, just thirsty or craving something.
Sent from my iPhone
"Susan Otcenas" <su...@teamestrogen.com> Dec 01 06:35AM -0800
* We don't need a lot of protein. Think of protein as a
condiment. At dinner it should be about the size of a deck of cards and
carbs should cover your plate.
* Look for every opportunity to cut back on fats. By low- or
non-fat whenever possible.
I think you may find a lot of disagreement here.
Many people find that carbs burn right through them, while protein and
fats provide a much greater feeling a satiety and "stick to the ribs"
more. Feeling full longer ==> snacking less between meals. As much as
I LOVE steel cut oats for breakfast, a couple of eggs scrambled with
plenty of veggies leaves me much more satisfied.
Choosing low and no fat options can sometimes be a bad idea, unless you
are a very diligent label reader. Many low fat and no fat products are
stuffed with added sugars or artificial ingredients instead. Ever
look at the ingredients in a typical container of lowfat or non-fat
yogurt?
Rather than "cover my plate" in carbs (which most people will interpret
to mean bread, rice, pasta, or other grain-based food), I choose to fill
at least half my plate with fresh vegetables. Low calorie, nutrient
dense, and filling.
Preparing for, riding, or recovering from a workout is a whole different
ballgame. My nutrition in that case is much more carb oriented to allow
me quick access to calories during a workout & to replenish glycogen
stores post-workout. But as far as off-season & holiday
weight-management meals go, I don't think that a carb-rich diet is
necessary, or even necessarily advisable.
Of course, I'm not a dietician, but I do spend a lot of time reading up
on this subject, and there's a wide variance in recommendations out
there. I guess, in the end, we have to figure out what works best for
us as individuals.
Susan
________________________________
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of John Hughes
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:31 PM
To: randon
Subject: [Randon] Weight Management
This time of year many of us are concerned about managing our weight
during the off-season, especially the holidays. We did a lot of
research for the chapter in nutrition in Distance Cycling, which covers
day to day nutrition, weight management and nutrition during rides. A
few observations:
* As a local pro told me it's simple, "ride more, eat less." It
does come down to calories in / calories out.
* No particular food type is good or bad in terms of weight
management; remember the guy who lost large amounts eating at Subway
every day?
* What counts is control. I have a friend who practices
push-aways. He pushes himself away from the table before seconds.
* Dieting doesn't work, because it feels like a sacrifice. Once I
lose XX lbs I can go back to eating what I like.
* Permanently changing to a more healthy lifestyle does work:
reducing calories by not more than 20% of you daily requirement and
increasing activities.
* When I was in China Prof. Weimo Zhu from U. IL made a convincing
case that increasing obesity is a result of increasing use of
labor-saving devices: less manual labor, getting a ride to school
instead of walking/cycling, using a power mower, a dishwasher, an
elevator, etc. Easy for all of us to make some small changes here.
* Eating unprocessed grains, fruits and vegetables is important
because they contain more vitamins and minerals.
* We don't need a lot of protein. Think of protein as a
condiment. At dinner it should be about the size of a deck of cards and
carbs should cover your plate.
* Look for every opportunity to cut back on fats. By low- or
non-fat whenever possible.
* Don't get carried away by all the rules. After our ride today
my friend and I had pizza and beer!
* A great resource for good nutrition and weight management is the
USDA's http://www.choosemyplate.gov/
Yours for a healthy and happy life!
--
Cheers,
John Hughes
www.coach-hughes.com
PO Box 18028
Boulder, CO 80308-1028
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LittleWheelsandBig <davidj...@gmail.com> Nov 30 01:33PM -0800
Audax UK used to offer 'Off Road' brevets, though there aren't any in
the current calendar. They are Brevet Populaires, so they were usually
sub-200 km and had lower average speeds. Routed mostly over
bridalpaths, following the routesheet was usually quite challenging.
GPS would make things easier now. There is a rather pretty patch still
offered in the AUK Handbook for the next time somebody wants to run
one.
I keep reading about RUSA's D2R2, mostly on dirt roads. http://www.rapha.cc/d2r2
and
Dave
Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> Nov 30 05:20PM -0500
On Wed, 2011-11-30 at 13:33 -0800, LittleWheelsandBig wrote:
> GPS would make things easier now. There is a rather pretty patch still
> offered in the AUK Handbook for the next time somebody wants to run
> one.
For RUSA members visiting the metro Washington DC area, consider "The
Road Less Travelled" -- new RUSA Perm Pop #1284. Owner George Moore
described it thusly:
This populaire route (133K) is designed to explore "Fat Tire" routes to
see seldom seen vistas in this commonly ridden area in NE Fauquier and
SW Loudon Counties, VA. It is not recommended for bikes with tires
narrower than 32mm; wider 650B tires are even better. Places covered
include Haymarket (the start/finish), Bull Mountain, Champe Ford,
Oatlands, Hogback Mountain, Forest Mill, Lincoln, Purcellville, Airmont,
Trapp, Millville, Snake Hill, Middleburg, Rock Mill, The Plains, and
Bust Head.
"About 60% of the route is unpaved. Surfaces change with the weather
and recent road treatments. In the past, the road surfaces have ranged
from fairy loose gravel to hard-pack. In places there are potholes
and/or wash-boarding. Be careful of surface issues on descents. There
is little traffic, but the roads are narrow with many one lane bridges.
Be cautious on curves and crests where sightlines are poor for oncoming
traffic and rough roads.
"The reward is seeing a whole new side of this area. I'd ridden it
so-o-o-o many times, I thought I'd seen it all. Then some friends took
me on a 40 mile "rough ride", and I learned that many of the most
charming scenes aren't on the paved roads. This will take you to many
of those."
I've ridden many of those roads (in fact, I was one of those "friends"
mentioned above) and can vouch for the beauty of this route. Remember
in Subterranean Homesick Blues where Bob Dylan says "Look out, kid, they
keep it all hid"? This is where.
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Cheers,
John Hughes
www.coach-hughes.com
PO Box 18028
Boulder, CO 80308-1028
William Watts
Bill
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