Coronation Day 12 May 1937

[BREMENMURRAY]

As the eighty fifth anniversary of the Coronation of George VI and Queen Elizabeth approaches is it known if anyone present in Westminster Abbey that day is still living apart from the Queen?

[Henry W]

We know that all peers of the realm were eligible to attend. I believe they were all able to bring a page to carry their coronet - see https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34453/supplement/7054/ 

The Pages of other Peers, upon ascending the Theatre, delivered the coronets which they carried to the respective Peers and went to the seats provided for them, where they remained until the Procession was re-formed on the conclusion of the Service

If so, one of the now elderly hereditary peers might have acted as one of their predecessor's page.  Attending peers on this page onwards: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34453/supplement/7057/

Likely candidates:

15th Baron Saye & Sele (b 1920) - possibly for his grandfather, the 12th Baron  (listed as present - page 7061)

15th Earl of Kincardine (b 1924) - possibly for his father the 14th Earl (listed as present - top of page 7059)

9th Baron Walsingham (b 1925) - possibly for his father, the 8th Baron (but NOT listed as present - should be towards bottom of 7061/top of 7062)

Possibly more to investigate, and also possible that other relations of peers still living served as pages.

Also 3rd Baron Monk Bretton (b 1924, succ 1933) was a peer and definitely eligible to attend, but is not listed in the attending peers - I think he should appear towards the bottom of page 7062.

[malcolm davies]

The Earl of Airlie might have been there as a page-he was 11,the same age as the Queen.The Marquess of Ailesbury is another possibility-he was the grandson of 6th Marquess who was there and was an appropriate age for a page-14.

[BREMENMURRAY]

The Earl of Airlie is listed as present on another website as a page. Also Lord Monk Brettons mother is listed as present Ruth ,Dowager Baroness Monk Bretton. Would she have qualified for a page?

Some interesting non attendees including the premier dukes of Ireland and Scotland, Leinster and Hamilton and premier Marquess of England Winchester.

[Peter Durrant]

Thanks for these fascinating photos

On Thursday, 12 May 2022, 08:53:27 BST, R. W. De Salis <labeld...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Good morning,

hope this might be of interest.

That he dressed up for it obvs doesn't prove he actually went

but here's Monk Bretton with his mother May 1937:

Yours,

Rodolph de Salis

[Henry W]

Thanks greatly for passing those on Rodolph & Bremen.  I think it is highly likely Lord Monk Bretton was present.  In my searching I came across this article: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/41292675

It lists the young peers Lord Congleton (born 1925, succ 1932) and Lord Montagu of Beaulieu (born 1926, succ 1929) as intending to attend (both are now deceased). They are stated as not able to wear the robes of a peer, but would be wearing attire similar to a court page.  I would suggest that is exactly what Lord Monk Bretton seems to be wearing.   Lord Congleton should appear on page 7062 of the Gazette links next to Lord Vivian, but does not (his mother, the Dowager Baroness Congleton is listed as present).  Lord Montagu of Beaulieu should appear at the bottom of the page next to Lord Monkswell, but again does not.  For whatever reason, I think young peers were not listed in the Gazette.

Bremen in another post references the Earl of Airlie being present.  The website I believe he refers to is Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_participants_in_the_coronation_processions_of_George_VI

The 12th Earl of Airlie is present as The Lord Chamberlain of the Queen's Household, and lists his page as his son & heir Lord Ogilvy (now 13th Earl of Airlie, born 1926).  The 13th Earl went on to become Lord Chamberlain of the Household himself in the 1980s and 90s.

[BREMENMURRAY]

The London Gazette lists peers who took the Oath.Perhaps as a minor Lord Monk Bretton and the other young peers could not take the Oath which is why they are not listed

[colinp]

The Maids of Honour who carried Queen Elizabeth's train were aged (roughly) between 17 and 27 at the time of the coronation.  The youngest was Lady Iris Mountbatten (b 1920) but she died in 1982.  The last survivor was Lady Ursula Manners (later d'Abo) b 1916 who died in 2017

The Pages of Honour who carried King George's train were a somewhat younger  - between (roughly) 14 and 19 so perhaps a little too old to be ordinary pages (although I have seen on the Internet a portrait photo of a peer and peeress in coronation robes for the 1902 Coronation with their page (their son) who was 20 at the time).  They included 4 minor peers - The Earl Haig (1918-2009), the Earl Kitchener (1919-2011), the Earl Jellicoe (1918-2007) and the Lord Herschell (1923-2008) - as well as a courtesy peer, Viscount Lascelles (later Earl of Harewood) (1923-2011).  The 3rd and last Earl Kitchener was the last survivor.  The others were Alexander AAD Ramsay (1919-2000), George R Seymour (1923-2010), George EC Hardinge (1921-1997) and Montague RV Eliot (1923-1994)

[malcolm davies]

The probable explanation for the non attendance of those mentioned is as follows:-

Hamilton,Bedford & Devonshire-ill health.The Duchess of Devonshire as a former Mistress of the Robes is likely to have been there.Hamilton and Bedford died in 1940,Devonshire in 1938.

The Marquess of Douglas would have deputised for his father as hereditary keeper of Holyrood Palace.

Leinster was flitting in and out of bankruptcy

[BREMENMURRAY]

Bedford may have not attended because his wife the"Flying Duchess" had disappeared into the North Sea a few weeks before.The Duchesses of Devonshire,Hamilton,Montrose and Roxburghe are all listed as present but not the Dukes.Possibly the London Gazette list is not fully comprehensive?

[ThomasFoolery]

Possibly subsequent Gazettes contain corrections?   I’ve seen this with old Court Circulars that would like scores of names, and invariably there’d be an adjustment note of some sort within a few days. 

[colinp]

I believe Andrew Wemyss (or Erskine-Wemyss) b 1925 of Torrie House Dunfermline is still alive.  He was page to the Duke of Portland

Also possibly Charles Cameron, page to Lord Elphinstone, who may be Charles Alexander Cameron son of Sir Donald Cameron of Lochiel but I'm not sure.  He was born in 1920 so the right sort of age, though a little old, and I haven't found a note of his death at the moment 

[colinp]

This is a list of the peers, with their pages, who took part in the Procession in the Abbey as stated in the London Gazette Supplement 10 Nov 1937 (34453)

As you can see there a few I have been unable to identify for certain and at least two are still living

The Marquess of Willingdon, Chancellor of the Order of St Michael and St George: Page – Hon John Knatchbull b 1924, son of the 5th Baron Brabourne, later the 7th Baron, d 2005

The Earl of Mar and Kellie, Chancellor of the Order of the Thistle: Page – Alistair RH Erskine b 1923, grandson, ka 1945

The Earl of Plymouth, Bearer of the Standard of the Principality of Wales: Page – Viscount Windsor, b 1923, son and ha, later 3rd Earl, d 2018

The Earl of Granard, Bearer of a Standard of the Quarterings of the Royal Arms (Ireland): Page – Donald S Erskine b 1925, son of Sir Arthur Erskine (Crown Equerry), d 2017

The Earl of Derby, Bearer of a Standard of the Quarterings of the Royal Arms (England): Page – Hugh Stanley b 1926, grandson, father of 19th Earl, d 1971

The Marquess of Cholmondeley, Bearer of the Royal Standard: Page – Hon Julian Fane b 1927, son of the 14th Earl of Westmorland, d 2009

The Earl Stanhope, Knight of The Garter to hold the Canopy for the anointing: - Hon Norton Knatchbull b 1922, son of the 5th Baron Brabourne, later the 6th Baron, k 1943

The Earl of Lytton, Knight of The Garter to hold the Canopy for the anointing: Page – Hon Matthew Ridley b 1925, son of the 3rd Viscount Ridley, later 4th Viscount d 2012

The Duke of Abercorn, Knight of The Garter to hold the Canopy for the anointing: Page – Robert I Kenyon-Slaney b 1926, grandson, d 1984

The Marquess of Londonderry, Knight of The Garter to hold the Canopy for the anointing: Page – Michael C Stanley b 1921, grandson, d 1990

The Earl of Cromer, Lord Chamberlain of the Household: Page - Viscount Melgund b 1918, son and ha, later 3rd Earl, d 1991

The Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry, Lord Steward of the Household: Page – David RM Stuart b 1924, son of Maj James Gray Stuart (former Equerry to the King as Duke of York and later cr Viscount Stuart of Findhorn) and Lady Rachel Cavendish, later 2nd Viscount, d 1999

The Viscount Hailsham, Lord High Chancellor: Page – Peter Billinge – TO BE IDENTIFIED but myheritage has an entry for Peter Rosslyn Henry Billinge b 1924 (which would be the right age) d 1952 son of Frank Billinge and Millicent Constance Grosvenor (of the Dukes of Westminster and various Scottish noble families)

The Earl of Haddington, Bearer of the Queen’s Ivory Rod with the Dove: Page – Desmond O’Brien b 1926, nephew, d 1969

The Earl of Airlie, Lord Chamberlain of Her Majesty’s Household: Page – Lord Ogilvy b 1926, son and ha, later 12th Earl, LIVING

The Duke of Rutland, Bearer of the Queen’s Sceptre with the Cross: Page – Lord Roger Manners b 1925, son, d 2017

The Duke of Portland, Bearer of Her Majesty’s Crown: Page – Andrew Erskine-Wemyss (later Wemyss?) b 1925, grandson, LIVING

The Dowager Duchess of Northumberland, Mistress of the Robes: Page – Lord Geoffrey Percy b 1925, son, d 1984

The Viscount Halifax, Bearer of St Edward’s Staff: Page – Henry L Middleton b 1923, son of Lambert W Middleton and Lady Sybil Grey, d 988

The Duke of Somerset, Bearer of the Sceptre with the Cross: Page – Frank S [Bill] Skelton b 1920, descended from the 8th Duke, d 2003

The Lord Churston, Bearer of one of the Golden Spurs: Page – Hon David Bethell b 1922, grandson of 3rd Lord Westbury, later 5th Lord, d 2001

The Lord Hastings, Bearer of one of the Golden Spurs: Page – David Wyndham b 1922, grandson of 2nd Lord Leconfield, ka 1944

The Viscount Trenchard, Bearer of the Third Sword: Page – Hon Hugh Trenchard b 1921, son and ha, ka 1943

The Earl of Cork and Orrery, Bearer of Curtana: Page – Viscount Boyle b 1924, son of 8th Earl of Shannon, later 9th Earl, d 2013

The Lord Milne, Bearer of the Second Sword: Page – John C Armitage UNIDENTIFIED

The Earl of Ancaster, Lord Great Chamberlain: Page – Lord John Manners b 1922, son of 9th Duke of Rutland, d 2001

The Earl of Shrewsbury, Lord High Steward of Ireland: Page – Christopher Talbot b 1928, descendant of 2nd Earl Talbot of Hensol, d 2009

The Earl of Errol, High Constable of Scotland: Page – Alastair Hay b 1927, son of Gilbert Hay (later Boyd) (later 6th Lord Kilmarnock) later 7th Lord, d 2009

The Duke of Norfolk, Earl Marshal: Pages – 1.  Hon Martin Fitzalan-Howard b 1922, son of 3rd Lord Howard of Glossop, later Lord Martin, d 2003 and 2.  Viscount Morpeth b 1923, son and ha of 11th Earl of Carlisle, later 12th Earl, d 1994

The Marquess of Zetland, Bearer of the Sword of State: Page – Hon Brian [Bryan] Beckett b 1922, son of 3rd Lord Grimthorpe, d 1943

The Marquess of Crewe, Lord High Constable of England: Pages – 1. Colin Dodds UNIDENTIFIED and  2.  Euan Graham b 1924, grandson of 5th Duke of Montrose, d 2007

The Duke of Richmond and Gordon, Bearer of the Sceptre with the Dove: Page – Charles Vyner b 1926, grandson, ka 1945

The Marquess of Salisbury, Lord High Steward and Bearer of St Edward’s Crown: Pages – 1.  John Ormsby-Gore b 1925, grandson, d 2008 and 2.  Hon John Manners b 1923, great-nephew, d 2008

The Duke of Sutherland, Bearer of the Orb: Page – Hon Peter Ward b 1926, nephew, d 2008

The Duke of Beaufort, Master of the Horse: Page – Lord Burghersh b 1924, son and ha of the 14th Earl of Westmorland, later 15th Earl, d 1993

The Lord Elphinstone, Gold Stick of Scotland: Page – Charles Cameron TO BE CHECKED b 1920, son of Sir Donald Cameron of Lothiel and Lady Hermione Graham DECEASED ??

The Lord Wigram, Lord in Waiting: Page – Hector Laing b 1923, son of Hector S Laing and Margaret Grant (of Forres), later cr Lord Laing of Dunphail, d 2010

The Lord Templemore, Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard: Page – Hon Peter Strutt b 1924, son of 3rd Lord Belper, d 2007

The Earl of Lucan, Captain of the Gentlemen at Arms: Page – Viscount Althorp b 1924, son and ha of 7th Earl Spencer, later 8th Earl, d 1992

[S R Eglesfield]

John C Armitage, page to Lord Milne, could be Lt John Clement Armitage, MC (1923 - 7 XII 1944), the youngest son of General Sir (Charles) Clement Armitage, KCB, CMG, DSO, DL (12 XII 1881 - 15 XII 1973), of that landed gentry family of High Royd, Honley, Yorkshire, but I have been unable to verify this.

(James) Colin Dodds (later Colin Crewe, MC; 1922 - 10 IV 2015), page to the Marquess of Crewe, was his grandson, being the elder son of Major (James) Hugh Hamilton DODDS (later DODDS CREWE; 1880 - 28 VII 1956) and his wife (married 9 II 1922, as her second husband) Lady Annabel Hungerford O'NEILL, née CREWE-MILNES (31 VIII 1881 - 14 VI 1948).

[dpth...@gmail.com]

"The Viscount Hailsham, Lord High Chancellor: Page – Peter Billinge – TO BE IDENTIFIED but myheritage has an entry for Peter Rosslyn Henry Billinge b 1924 (which would be the right age) d 1952 son of Frank Billinge and Millicent Constance Grosvenor (of the Dukes of Westminster and various Scottish noble families)"

I have his date of death as 16 August 1954, though I cannot remember my source.

[BREMENMURRAY]

Thanks for the fascinating and detailed reply's

[malcolm davies]

Note the pages range in age from 16 down to 9 years old.

We can't predict who will be pages for the next coronation, obviously, until the Queen dies, as the(present) likely candidates get older(possibly too old to be pages).

[bx...@yahoo.com]

What exactly is a "page?"  What duties, responsibilities, etc. do they have and how are they chosen?

Forgive me, but as an American, I've heard the term, but especially, as they are being discussed here, I'd like to know more.

Thanks.

Brooke

[malcolm davies]

Brooke,

             Here is a link to the Wikipedia page about pages of honour:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_of_Honour

 The pages we are talking about have a similar role but as a male peer does not have a train like a female peer or a female member of the royal family,the principal task is to follow the peer holding his coronet(which is put on at the moment of coronation).

  The page will also take charge of the peer's coronet if he is paying homage(but only the senior peers of each degree or peerage do this).

  You might like to watch film of the 1953 coronation for this-it will occur immediately after the Queen was crowned and is probably on YouTube.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Thank you, Malcolm.  Much appreciated.

Brooke

[Ind_Duke]

Lord Monk Bretton has passed away making this list shorter.. 

[colinp]

It has occurred to me that other young attenders of the 1937 Coronation (as well as the pages and choristers) would be the scholars of the Westminster School who acclaimed the King and Queen with the traditional Vivats - they would be approx 11 to 18?  

[Nicholas Hodgkinson - Montagu]

I know I am a few years late but H.R.H The Duke of Kent was present and he's still alive

[BREMENMURRAY]

It seems unlikely that as a baby of nineteen months that the present Duke of Kent would be taken to the coronation.