Monthly No Prize Contest (NPC): Comments (5/5)

[Administrator]

Continued from here

[Daniela Brocca]

The answer is the first, Peter. The photo has to be taken from ground or a level near the ground. Take a look at his last photos as an example

[Daniela Brocca]

Copied from the game forum . Posted by Oliviero Masseroli.

I am happy about the great adhesion to the contest and I thank all the authors in competition. Unfortunately a lot of images don't respect the only required element and that is: the start point has to be Ground level or very near the ground. I invite all the authors to consider with attention this advice of mine and check their photos and even to replace the images, in the spirit of the game and of the selected subject. I am sure that an off topic image will be penalized at voting time and I would not like this to happen. I thank you for your attention and... good Ground level to everybody.

[purdey12345]

Quote Daniela Brocca:

Copied from the game forum . Posted by Oliviero Masseroli.

I am happy about the great adhesion to the contest and I thank all the authors in competition. Unfortunately a lot of images don't respect the only required element and that is: the start point has to be Ground level or very near the ground. I invite all the authors to consider with attention this advice of mine and check their photos and even to replace the images, in the spirit of the game and of the selected subject. I am sure that an off topic image will be penalized at voting time and I would not like this to happen. I thank you for your attention and... good Ground level to everybody.

It's unfortunate that some folk are interpreting this somewhat loosely. With hindsight it might have been better to specify that the centre of the camera lens had to have been <= 300 mm above ground (or floor if the photo was indoors) to be eligible.

[RoarX]

This topic is easy to misunderstand. Perhaps it would be better if we call it "frog perspective" or similar...

Good luck in contest all

[Roberto Lo Savio]

Quote roarx:

This topic is easy to misunderstand. Perhaps it would be better if we call it "frog perspective" or similar...

Good luck in contest all

The title of the topic could be misunderstood, but I think that the description of the topic given by the moderator is very clear!

[Frank Noordenbos]

There are too many participants who simply don't want to understand the toppic.

I suppose they don't want to understand it during the voting period neither.

That's not the kind of competition I like.
Therefore, folks, I will not participate this month.

Cheers, Frank

[D. Alexandru Ioan]

Frank, please reconsider your position. By not paticipating you will only punish those who complied to the subject and reword those who did not. There are many pictures that don’t belong here, it’s true, but we simply can’t stop people submiting them, but we can exercise our wright to vote not only what we like but also what falls under the given topic. And by doing that we discourege this kind of things.
It will also be a good ideea that afther the entry period a message stating this (take in consideration the topic when you vote) to appear.

[purdey12345]

Quote D. Alexandru Ioan:

Frank, please reconsider your position. By not paticipating you will only punish those who complied to the subject and reword those who did not. There are many pictures that don’t belong here, it’s true, but we simply can’t stop people submiting them, but we can exercise our wright to vote not only what we like but also what falls under the given topic. And by doing that we discourege this kind of things.
It will also be a good ideea that afther the entry period a message stating this (take in consideration the topic when you vote) to appear.

The outcome is too dependent on the whim of the voters who will probably just vote for the prettiest entries. There's a real risk is that a plainly non-compliant entry will win - and there are several very attractive ones that might - and what would happen then? Would the moderator(s) disqualify it? Include me out for this month.

[BWS's ghost]

With apologies to Oliviero, it seems that just using the words "Ground Level" in your photo's title qualifies it for this month's NPC No one has ever been, or can be, "forced" to change a photo, so unfortunately this problem will happen.

How can so many people be so far off-topic when it is so simple? Maybe they had never before tried this technique and are too lazy to make a new photo? On the bright side, it makes voting much easier when working by the process of elimination (failing to match the subject as first elimination rule).

Here's another way of stating the subject that may help:
"camera placed level on ground (or very, very close to it) and lens pointing along the ground"

Otherwise, who can tell if the camera was on ground level?

[edit: IMHO, 43 of the first 80 entries don't match the intended subject! Got too frustrated to look at more Now I truly feel sorry for Oliviero who provided many great examples of the subject in the 1st page of his gallery, but also should have put them in the opening post of NPC. If your photo appears to have been taken while standing up, in a crouch, stooped over a bit, from a park bench, in tall grass or bushes, while looking up, or down from a height, it's not a good match to a subject which emphasizes the very unusual perspective from and along GROUND LEVEL!!!!! The "frog's eye view" suggested by someone above might very well have been a better title for the subject, internationally and unequivocally speaking, except where there are giant frogs! ]

[Frank Noordenbos]

Quote D. Alexandru Ioan:

Frank, please reconsider your position. By not paticipating you will only punish those who complied to the subject and reword those who did not. There are many pictures that don’t belong here, it’s true, but we simply can’t stop people submiting them, but we can exercise our wright to vote not only what we like but also what falls under the given topic. And by doing that we discourege this kind of things.
It will also be a good ideea that afther the entry period a message stating this (take in consideration the topic when you vote) to appear.

Hi Alexandru,

I think Oliviero came up with a great topic. Since I'm a serious man I like to deal with the NPC and Olivieros topic on a serious way.
You have to know, I have some pictures who match the topic perfectly, although the are not in my Pano-album yet.

However, since approximately 50% of the participants consider the NPC as a silly game in stead of a fair competition I dont think it's wise for me to participate. It would annoy me too much. It would harm my health.

Cheers, Frank

[jean~ge]

I think Oliviero came up with a great topic too. It is very frustrating to see about half of the entries do not qualify.

The number of photos that are not at Ground Level, not at Frog's Eye View, not flat on the ground are just as previously stated in the above comments.

I haven't checked every single photo in the contest, but have I noticed that if the photo DOES meet the criteria, Oliverio seems to have left a wonderful comment under each of them.

If your photo meets the criteria set by the moderator, your photo probably has this comment:

Thank you for entering this fine picture into the 2010 October NPC. A very nice shot! Your photo has all of the correct characteristics, tagging, title and country identification required so it is ready to participate! Best wishes to be successful in the contest! Please take part as well in the voting process in a few days!

Regards, Oliviero

2010 October NPC moderator

It seems to me that if your photo does not have this comment, then there is a good chance that it is not a Ground Level photo.

That is my humble opinion.

Jean

[RoarX]

This is how to make a ground level photo.

BTW, my photo do not have such a comment (yet?)... I was lying flat on my belly taking this photo. It shows the underside of an block of ice and some rocks, plus the sunset... This is the ice block (Not the contest photo, but an overview).

[Neanderthaler]

Quote Frank Noordenbos:

... It would annoy me too much. It would harm my health...

You are sure that Panoramio is only a hobby for you?

[Frank Noordenbos]

I'm sure Neanderthaler. But I'm also a person who takes his hobby seriously.

Greetings from another primate, called Frank

[Daniela Brocca]

It's a pity that just people who mean to know the right topic are those who dash away. They ought to give the good example instead...

[Frank Noordenbos]

At the time the NPC community as a whole recognizes the problem, you can count on me Daniela. Until then I prefer to dash away.
Once before I had the role of a Don Quichotte. I do not aspire to play that role once more.

Cheers, Frank

[Paxdeena]

Frank ,it is just because of the entries that don't qualify you really should enter yours ,at least as a example!!!!

[someGuyinmasset]

[quote="roarx"]This is how to make a ground level photo.

Lol roarx, I thought of that but then thought of the beating I'd get and the jail time and decided against it

Anyways seems a lot of people recognize the off-topic pics and if Oliviero keeps reminding everyone as we vote maybe all will be well.

[Oliviero Masseroli]

I want to thank everybody participating in the October NPC. I noticed that not all the photos are perfectly in theme. I wish to emphasize that the photos must be taken from the level of the ground or from any other limit level. The level of water as any other limit plan.. The clouds can be for instance a limit plan and what is ` above them it’s all right. The right thing is to shoot from the plan of the clouds. Some authors have answered me explaining their point of release, difficult to individualize and I accept their good faith.. Therefore I would say to concentrate on the submitted works with a bit of elasticity ` and if we believe they are off topic not to insert them among those to which to give our preference. My job is not ` easy and I have to respect all the authors and their works. Each of us will know how to behave when voting. Thanks to all of you for sharing and have a great NCP. Oliviero, NCP October 2010 Moderator

[© mARTin]

Quote jean~ge:

I don´t have such comment under my entry picture. But it´s devently made from the Ground, more Ground is not possibel.

Best wishes, Martin

[Frank Noordenbos]

Quote:

Frank ,it is just because of the entries that don't qualify you really should enter yours ,at least as a example!!!!

Paxdeena

Your call makes me sentimental, Joke. I grew up on South Beveland
I know Yerseke, the village where you live, very well

Quote:

Anyways seems a lot of people recognize the off-topic pics and if Oliviero keeps reminding everyone as we vote maybe all will be well.

someGuyinmasset

Mark my words Guy, beautiful off-topic photos will be rewarded amply, especially by non-participating voters. This applies especially off-topic sunsets.

What will happen to high scoring off-topic photos Daniela?
I'm afraid nothing will happen again.

If there is any willingness to face up and to solve the old off-topic-problem, I will post a picture.

Cheers, Frank

[Deep.blue]

Quote © mARTin:

I don't have that comment either jean,i will most happily withdraw my entry if you are correct.Only entered for fun,no desire to win at all.

Ps....;The only way to resolve this issue is to have the moderators for the NPC exclude the shots that do not fit their criteria.This may lead to a shortage of takers but since nothing i do has the slightest chance of winning,i need not worry

[Daniela Brocca]

To everybody. Even if you don't have the comment please don't withdrawn the photos. As Oliviero is moderating from Budapest where he is on holiday he doesn't have so much time to connect. I think he will be back tomorrow or on thursday and then we will see.

Frank, I know the off topic problem is an ever lasting problem.What do you want me to do? If we want to change something in the rules we have to vote for a new rule. There is no rule referred to off topic posts. In the CSP we added one, that the month's moderator, as the only judge, may ask the submitters to change the photos he thinks are off topic.

Daniela

[∙Didier∙]

Frank don't you realize that you are always complaining about every NPC???
NPC should be fun.
You said your opinion you got the opinion of other people.
You should accept that other people might see things different than you do and learn to be tolerant.
Please stop this endless complaining, and try to see why so called off topic pics could be on-topic, that can be fun too.

[Frank Noordenbos]

A rule like the SPC rule seems OK to me Daniela.

I always have a constructive attitude Didier.
Personally, I am more worried about people who never express an opinion.

Cheers, Frank

[BWS's ghost]

Maybe (it is not a command to anyone, at the moment) the following statement should appear at the top of each new NPC (to me, it is already common sense and applicable since the beginning):

All photos not matching the subject, as defined by the current month's moderator, that are not changed to an acceptable photo at the moderator's request by the end of the entry period will be removed at the moderator's sole discretion (with the careful and kind assistance of Daniela or another forum moderator to delete those posts).

If the moderator gives you a warning comment about your photo, you should definitely listen and change your photo or withdraw. It is the moderator who defined the subject so they are the one and only person to truly understand the definition of their subject.

Problems:
- will each month's moderator and Daniela be comfortable doing that?
- how many participants will you lose? Should you care if those people stop playing?
- Rob and Wim would have to change the vote check and counting programs to ignore votes for removed entries (or Daniela would have to painstakingly edit votes, or re-number several hundred entries on the 11th each month)
- what about last few entries? Mods will have to act fast to notify and remove, or just say it's the entrant's fault if they enter at the last minute with a questionable photo.

Just some ideas. BTW, a new contest idea is coming on the 10th which may solve all these problems, but create new ones I don't foresee

Cheers,
Brian

[Daniela Brocca]

Only if the warned submitters will not change or withdraw the photos the moderator could list the off topic pictures at the beginning of the voting post. Withdrawn photos don't count for the Toolkit, I don't know how it is with the Voting Machine. Photos should be withdrawn by users only if they have no substitute photo. So the work to do is only for the user to edit the post and change the photo and for the month's moderator to ask the submitters to change the photo and then list the numbers of not changed and not withdrawn, if ever. Participants should then not vote for the listed numbers.

If we really want to change and add a new rule. Or we could continue as till now.

Cheers, Daniela

[BWS's ghost]

Quote Daniela Brocca:

... Photos should be withdrawn by users only if they have no substitute photo. ...

Agreed, except not sure what you mean in the short quote I copied.

I think all photos not matching subject (according to mod) should definitely withdraw, or go out and take and post an acceptable photo before the entry period closes. I think it may be the main cause of this problem - people just want to enter anything "close" because they can't enter otherwise. It makes no sense to ask all other entrants to follow the mod's advice, except some people who don't already have a good photo matching the subject.

No one needs to enter every month, do they? Are the stats driving people to enter constantly in the hope of reaching some magical Top10?

Anyway, I'd say leave it to Oliviero and the next mod who hopefully is reading all this stuff

Cheers, Brian

[Daniela Brocca]

I mean the post is to be left empty only if the user doesn't have another photo to put at the place of the one not matching the subject.

[BWS's ghost]

why?

[Daniela Brocca]

Because there is no need to delete the post ( work that only a forum moderator can do) and it doesn't interfere with the voting. The post will be empty and some numbers could be missing, but we would not have problems with the Toolkit. And no need to re-number the other posts.

[BWS's ghost]

We're talking about two different things. I'm saying the entrant should withdraw their own non-matching photo even if they have no other matching photo, not leave it there for voters to possibly think it is still in the contest (even if the mods may say it's not, during the voting period). Forum mods won't have to forcibly remove posts except in extreme cases of uncooperative people who will edit their original entry posts, re-entering their non-matching photo at the same spot.

[Daniela Brocca]

Yes we are talking about the same thing, Brian. I say the post can stay empty only in case the entrant has no other photo to replace the first non matching the subject. Who would remove the non matching photos not removed by the users? Me. And that could be done only after entering the voting post, when submitting photos is finished.Why could they not be listed in the voting post?

This is becoming a full time not renumerate job

At the moment I'm going to bed Daniela

[BWS's ghost]

Quote Daniela Brocca:

... Why could they not be listed in the voting post? ...

Non-matching entries that are not withdrawn can be listed as such in the voting period, but it will be quite a long list, this month anyway. Will voters (some? many?) really pay attention to the list, or just go ahead as normal and vote for any photos they see and like?

Here are some possibilities when a mod asks someone to change a photo:
- they withdraw by removing their photo, possibly re-entering with a matching photo
- they change immediately to a matching photo
- they change, but to another non-matching photo!
- they ignore the request, and leave their photo
- they deny the request, and leave their photo
- they withdraw but later re-enter it or another non-matching photo in the same post

It should be clear that all but the first two possibilities are unacceptable actions, but that seems not so clear to all the entrants based on activity I've seen in this NPC and in past ones.

If the opening statement I wrote above (in red) is shown before each NPC, just the thought of being removed by deletion might stop most of the careless, ignorant and/or childish behavior of those who disregard the moderator's reasonable and polite requests. It might not have any effect, but at least it will be an attempt to "right the ship."

Cheers, Brian

ps - when is the big G going to start paying the excellent forum mods like you, Daniela?

[Frank Noordenbos]

I am very happy about your contribution to the debate Brian.

Cheers, Frank

[Paolo giramondo]

Thanks to Daniela, Frank and Brian, because your passion and your work will improve the game and I'm sure, with your help, everybody will observe the rules. I'll try to do my best.
I apologize for my very bad English.
Cheers, Paolo.

[Ian Dyer]

It seems that the voting is the problem with off topic photos. As a suggestion - don't use a voting period. Instead, the moderator chooses the top ten and out of the top ten chooses one overall winner to be the next moderator.

[BWS's ghost]

Quote Ian Dyer:

It seems that the voting is the problem with off topic photos. As a suggestion - don't use a voting period. Instead, the moderator chooses the top ten and out of the top ten chooses one overall winner to be the next moderator.

Hi, Ian. Are you a mind-reader? You've almost predicted the new contest I have already written down and plan to start soon (from the 10th to end of month). In the new contest all the entrants and the mod can/will be partly involved in the choosing, and it's all done without "voting". The rules are only 10 fairly short sentences and I'll try my best to keep them as short as possible!

[∙Didier∙]

What about putting a poll or vote for those changes of the rules?
Would be perhaps the best thing to see how many participant like the actual rules and how many dont like.

This comment section is great just there only post from a few people who want to change how NPC it works. Most of the participants dont post any comments, perhaps they just like the way NPC actually works, that would be a possible explanation why they dont post comments here..

[Neanderthaler]

Quote ∙Didier∙:

What about putting a poll or vote for those changes of the rules?

It´s fortunately not necessary because these few people don´t want to change the rules...these few people want to create a new contest for all who pursue their hobby seriously and not only to have some fun.
I´m very happy about that...so they don´t risk their health any longer.

I hope that I can be the moderator to declare Frank Noordenbos to the first winner.

Warning: Satire!

[Daniela Brocca]

And then there are many of the submitters that never come in this topic and anyway don't understand English enough to discute or aren't interested in the issues

[MHiller]

...or it get's just too academic or too serious or too...

NPC: Remember what that means?

[apojapo]

Frank is from the Netherlands and there they always want to discuss about everything (which isn't a bad manner I think)

Another contest, if its significantly different from the other contests , could be a good addition. I do think the problems with the off-topic entries and even more important the voting on those photo's are not that big like some here say. For the subject 'streets' I uploaded probably the worst matching photo of all (although there was a street visible in a mountain landscape) and did got, deservedly. 0 votes Also, If you look at the winners and the top-10 of each month I never see some real off-topic photo's. I doesn't always agree with it but of course, that's personal. People can't determine whether a vote is justified or not. Take for example Frank's entry (not my opinions and not personal , I think its a very nice photo ) While person A can say Frank's entry is matching the subject perfectly because of the perspective of the mushrooms, person B can say it isn't because its difficult to see the surrounding ground; we only have to do it with a few leaves

[Karen James]

I didn't really want to get involved with this discussion but since I started entering the NPC, it has motivated me to try and push my boundaries with my photography. The topics each month are a challenge, and if I can I try to take a new photo for it, the not so enthusiastic won't, that is personal choice.

When I was moderator I tried my best to bring back the entrants which were scared off the previous month and succeeded. I did let the entrants know if they were on topic or not, and to also let them know to change the photo before voting starts, some did others did not, there's only so much you can do., only to delete their photo out, maybe that is to drastic, or maybe they will think twice next time. I was advised by this months mod to change my photo, I did, it's not a big deal to try and change it.
I hope Brian's new game goes down well.


I've always been interested in these issues, but prefer not to get involved

[Frank Noordenbos]

Thanks apojapo, for your cultural understanding

Regarding my pictures, I have to admit there is some room for doubt.
Someone who has much knowledge about trees will have no doubt, but not everyone has that knowledge.

Tomorrow I will replace the picture.

Cheers, Frank

[∙Didier∙]

To be honnest I alwaysthought the dutch were people who also accepted the vote of other people,. Well what about you Frank? I really got the impression you dont. Why do you always suggest that people dont vote correctly? Honnestly your picture wasnt taken from the groundlevel, you caught an obkject on the ground level...... that's different. Your interepretzation of that sbjct that any picture of a floor taken from any point of view is acceptable.... Putting photoshopped pics in NPC or SPC isnt that correct too......... I never seen a violettsky like on your sediments pic in reallity that looked pretty like cheating.

[Peter_private_box]

All you nice people out there...

Let me just pose one question. If I asked one hundred people to do something specific (eg to produce a photograph meeting some criteria), and a very large percentage of that hundred came back with something which in my opinion did not match that criteria, which do you think is a more likely option:
a) A large percentage of the people are incapable of understanding the instructions, or
b) I did not define the task properly and unambiguaously?

Without reference to any picture submitted by any individual in this NPC, a picture taken "with the camera at or near to ground level" is a very wide open subject, especially since the ground is not flat. THINK...!
The camera could be on the ground on top of a mountain, and the picture would be a view of all the valley below. The camera could be on a very low tripod taking a macro picture of anything found at that level. The camera could be on a low tripod taking a picture of something more distant.

If pictures of this kind are not acceptable to the moderator, then the problem is in the original definition of what is and what isn't acceptable, and not that a large number of people have posted something knowingly off topic.

While the moderator may have some wonderful artistic ideas in their heads, which no doubt would make a very interesting NPC, it is important that all those of different cultures, especially those whose first language is not English, can understand and take part on an equal basis.

Which brings me back to the opening question. Is the problem of 'off topic' entries caused by poor definition of the topic, or because a lot of people dont' want to 'play the game' in it's proper spirit?

Best wishes
Peter

[RobStamp]

Hello All

If the contest moderator did provide a list of the off topic photos in the post for start voting, it may not be seen.
Without taking the harsh step of deleting entries to positively prevent them getting any votes, please see example VM just to indicate to the voter which photos the moderator feels are off topic.

The photos can still be voted on, and as this is only in the VM, other methods of voting could also allow votes for off topic entries.

All I need is a list of entry numbers, eg as for this example 3,5
Note that at this time it is a manual edit, and not part of Toolkit.

Is this a good or bad idea? please let me know.
Apologies for the short time scale, in fact I am home earlier than planned from walking in Scotland, and was catching up on the forum.

Must get to bed now.

Cheers, Rob

[BWS's ghost]

The new 'Panoramio Weekly Photo' contest has made me re-consider starting my new contest idea this month, even though the two are very different from each other. It seems that there are now too many active contests and games to have enough support (though I may be wrong about that). Sorry everyone (me too as I was kinda excited to try the new concept).

∙Didier∙ wrote: "What about putting a poll or vote for those changes of the rules?" - Why? Only a clarification of consequences is required, not a new rule. #2b has always stated: 'Your photo must match the subject in the title of the contest forum topic' (just no consequences if it doesn't and who decides. The intention was that it could and/or would be removed by the mod.)

apojapo wrote: "its difficult to see the surrounding ground; we only have to do it with a few leaves" - Unless those mushrooms are huge or Frank climbed a tree, I think it is obvious that they are on the ground

Karen James wrote: "I hope Brian's new game goes down well." - Thanks for the hope, Karen, but we'll have to wait on it. It's probably too unusual to become popular enough anyway ... "I've always been interested in these issues, but prefer not to get involved" - Me too!

Frank Noordenbos wrote: "Tomorrow I will replace the picture." - Why? Did Oliviero ask you to? Looks OK to me, but my definition of the subject is a little different from the mod's and other people's.

Peter_private_box wrote: "Is the problem of 'off topic' entries caused by poor definition of the topic, or because a lot of people dont' want to 'play the game' in it's proper spirit?" - A combo of the two, but skewed heavily to the latter, I think, though I may be wrong. It has sometimes been observed that the mods change their thoughts about their own subject as new entries came along.

RobStamp wrote: "Is this a good or bad idea?" - Looks like a good idea to me. Thanks once again for all your excellent help! Let's hope that Oliviero is reading this and can provide a list of the off-topic photos to you before voting. Maybe just the way-off-topic photos, not necessarily every slightly questionable one, like Frank's

Cheers all, Brian

[Frank Noordenbos]

Thanks Brain. As for my picture, I think you're right. I will not replace the photo anyway.

Thanks Rob, looks like a good idea to me.

Didier, this is the last time I respond to a message from you.

I beg you Didier, stop your crusade against me and read the NPC-rules before coming up with false accusations.
There is nothing wrong with photoshopped pictures.

Cheers, Frank

[∙Didier∙]

By all these "clarification" of rules the originality of interpretation of the topic will disappear. This was that once made the participation in NPC interesting.

Actually the rules get a turn that it would be better to put a picture and ask participants to add similar pictures.

Frank, by constantly pointing out that some participants put off-topic picture without being moderator you dont even respect the spirit of the NPC, until now I didnt once comment negatively another participant picture. I'm actually just trying to be constructive and help you to be more open-minded when kit comes to the interpretation of a word and to learn accepting other people choices.

Brian I just wanted to point out that the last few months changes or adjustments in the rules are mostly done just on the comments by 10 or less participants and that perhaps the 100 participants like how it works. In general, people never post a comment to say it works fine.
Actually I think the NPC works fine and any changes in rules like deleting a picture would really make this game less attractive and somehow is in opposition to the spirit of the game.

[BWS's ghost]

Hi Didier, we're only discussing possibilities to maybe start enforcing an old rule (#2b), and maybe putting a statement into the opening posts to inform everyone.

I really don't see why anyone has difficulty with the current month's mod simply asking them to change a photo that is really not a match to the subject - even going as far as to delete it when someone outright ignores or refuses the mod's request. Do people in some places ignore or spit in the eye of a party host when they politely ask them to do something, even to leave the party? Maybe so, but please, everyone, just swallow your pride and ego for a moment and change your photo when requested by your host. The mod and other players will thank you.

Regarding "artistic interpretations": please keep in mind that the contestants must compare many photos that are supposed to be following a given photographic technique. That's very difficult when many people start stretching the mod's definition in various directions, sometimes well away from the original basis. It's nice to be different, but not so different that there may as well have been no subject defined at all.

BTW, the last rule change was in December 2009, which just deleted an often-ignored rule and two obsolete rules. There was a long discussion, an announcement and a voting period. We also considered several of Frank's concerns and suggestions then, but none received enough support.

Cheers, Brian

ps - since the weekly contest has been withdrawn by Gerard, I've re-considered again and decided to give the new contest idea a try since it's already written. It is not an attempt to steer people away from NPC because of this whole subject-matching issue. It's just another new game!

[∙Didier∙]

Hello Brian, I understand that point of view and I never was opposed against a moderator asking to change a picture, I even supported that idea a few months ago when that off-topic discussion started, but I insisted on the fact that it should be just up to the moderator to decide about off-topic or not, and not to other contest to complain about off-topic pics of other contestants, like it is actual the case.

So if there will be a line that a picture is taking out of contest by the moderator, than please add also somewhere a recommendation that other contestants have not to point out pictures that are off-topic even if the moderator has "accepted" them.

Deleting a picture still seems a bit hard to me, is there no possibility using a a semitransparent overlay picture in html it is possible to do so, but I dont know if it works in the forum and can be transferred to the voting machine?
In case there is really no other possibility as deleting a picture, than it would be perhaps a useful closing the entry period earlier and/or adding a week (after the entry period and before the voting period) or so for changing the picture. Not everyone is able checking panoramio at a regular frequency.
Greetings.

[Gabor Retei]

Quote Oliviero:

You can vote for up to 23 entries this month. (rule #4b)

It should be 24 according to the regulations, we have 237 entrants.

Gabe

[BWS's ghost]

Hi Gabe, you missed this (or it was added after you looked): "Total entries 237. 7 withdrawn . New total 230." I guess those 7 people all withdrew voluntarily not having subject-matching photos, after seeing Oliviero's comments under their photos.

[BWS's ghost]

Hi Didier, I completely agree that it should be just the moderator to decide about off-topic shots and to leave comments about them and to remove them or not, if necessary.

Would telling people to stop complaining about off-topic shots (or anything else) work? I doubt it and don't want to add basic behavioral rules into the NPC, or any other contest. It's free speech (within reason) to have your say here in the forum, but I refrain from mentioning any specific entries that I feel are off-topic and feel that's the best thing to do.

I know nothing about putting semitransparent overlays into these forums. Rob and Wim may know, especially in reference to the voting machine.

Instead of closing the entry period earlier or adding a period giving time to change photos, I think it's better to just place the statement I wrote (in red, two pages back) about the consequences of off-topic shots in the opening posts each month. If people enter late, at least they were notified in advance and should know that their entry is in jeopardy of being removed without the chance to change it.

Cheers,
Brian

[Gabor Retei]

Quote Brian W. Schaller:

Hi Gabe, you missed this (or it was added after you looked): "Total entries 237. 7 withdrawn . New total 230." I guess those 7 people all withdrew voluntarily not having subject-matching photos, after seeing Oliviero's comments under their photos.

We have to inform Rob and Wim, the VM allows 24 wotes, it might create a big problem! We better do it fast!

Gabe

[Daniela Brocca]

It was Oliviero and me that changed the total of votes to 23 and this was made in the Toolkit . I did not see that the VM has a different number, maybe why I had already charged the file to it. Now I see that Rob has changed it in the VM too. Thank you , Rob.

[Gabor Retei]

Quote Daniela Brocca:

It was Oliviero and me that changed the total of votes to 23 and this was made in the Toolkit . I did not see that the VM has a different number, maybe why I had already charged the file to it. Now I see that Rob has changed it in the VM too. Thank you , Rob.

I did write an e-mail to Robb, CC-d Wim, The VM is set/was set for 24 votes.

[Daniela Brocca]

I see = 0 /23, so it is right. Checking with the Toolkit nobody voted for 24 but someone that voted for 26 and one for a whitdrawn photo

[sandart]

Quote Peter_private_box:

All you nice people out there...

Let me just pose one question. If I asked one hundred people to do something specific (eg to produce a photograph meeting some criteria), and a very large percentage of that hundred came back with something which in my opinion did not match that criteria, which do you think is a more likely option:
a) A large percentage of the people are incapable of understanding the instructions, or
b) I did not define the task properly and unambiguaously?

Without reference to any picture submitted by any individual in this NPC, a picture taken "with the camera at or near to ground level" is a very wide open subject, especially since the ground is not flat. THINK...!
The camera could be on the ground on top of a mountain, and the picture would be a view of all the valley below. The camera could be on a very low tripod taking a macro picture of anything found at that level. The camera could be on a low tripod taking a picture of something more distant.

If pictures of this kind are not acceptable to the moderator, then the problem is in the original definition of what is and what isn't acceptable, and not that a large number of people have posted something knowingly off topic.

While the moderator may have some wonderful artistic ideas in their heads, which no doubt would make a very interesting NPC, it is important that all those of different cultures, especially those whose first language is not English, can understand and take part on an equal basis.

Which brings me back to the opening question. Is the problem of 'off topic' entries caused by poor definition of the topic, or because a lot of people dont' want to 'play the game' in it's proper spirit?

Best wishes
Peter

I agree completely with Peter....

I also changed my picture at the suggestion of the moderator, although I know that it is replying to the topic, as Peter said is very common as a definition. We can be more stringent only with clear and accurate terms!

.... And so, in this case had to say how many cm from ground level should be shot ... maybe ....

Moreover, what pictures are eligible and what does not, is very subjective. The moderator did not warn everyone not on the topic. Everyone can verify this!

[RobStamp]

I believe that for most people the issue of off topic photos is only a minor irritation, not enough to want to post a comment in the forum, but noting the response to my highlighting example of the Voting Machine, with a simple Yes/No/Abstain vote, it seems to me that something to reduce the occurence would be appreciated.

Quote 05 Oct 2010 - Brian W. Schaller:

All photos not matching the subject, as defined by the current month's moderator, that are not changed to an acceptable photo at the moderator's request by the end of the entry period will be removed at the moderator's sole discretion (with the careful and kind assistance of Daniela or another forum moderator to delete those posts).

If the moderator gives you a warning comment about your photo, you should definitely listen and change your photo or withdraw. It is the moderator who defined the subject so they are the one and only person to truly understand the definition of their subject.

Quote 06 Oct 2010 - Brian W. Schaller:

If the opening statement I wrote above (in red) is shown before each NPC, just the thought of being removed by deletion might stop most of the careless, ignorant and/or childish behavior of those who disregard the moderator's reasonable and polite requests. It might not have any effect, but at least it will be an attempt to "right the ship."

I propose a shorter version of Brian’s statement for the opening post, to be included in next Toolkit update, but as a template it can always be edited or deleted.

Photos not matching the subject that I have defined, and that at my request are not changed to an acceptable photo by the end of the entry period, may be listed at my discretion, and may therefore be highlighted in the Voting Machine. It is your choice to change or withdraw the photo, or you can leave it and expect fewer votes.

To be placed somewhere in the “Start of voting” post by the monthly mod, the list of off topic photos would look like a voting list, ie comma separated entry numbers. In Toolkit there will be a prompt to input the list if there is one, ie manual copy and paste, which does not rely on automatic reading, so that any comment by the monthly mod can be their own words. That is what is required for the highlighting in the VM to work, no need for a list of names.

So, no extra work for forum mods, the monthly mod can choose whether to comment on the off topic photos, whether to list them at the end to allow the Voting Machine to highlight them. Rather than risking deletion, maybe seeing their photo framed in lurid pink will be a positive incentive.

[Daniela Brocca]

I like it and I'm sure (I hope) we will not have another month like this, with more than 30 photos off topic, the users advised by Oliviero but of which only few changed the photos. That way we can do something or we go back to monthly subject like dogs or cats, trees and flowers, where we don't need to think.

[BWS's ghost]

Thanks for editing it down, Rob. It still matches most of my thoughts on the subject of subjects.

Maybe change the phrase "... and expect fewer votes." to "... and hope for the best!"

Always try to be positive!

Maybe there should be no subject at all? No one can misunderstand that.

[Frank Noordenbos]

I see you've changed your original comment, Brian.
Was it, let's say, too provocative?
I agreed with the removed part of the comment.

Cheers, Frank

[BWS's ghost]

What original comment was that, Frank? I don't remember saying anything too provocative...

Was it the sentence about being too "wordy" and needing an editor, or the one about Rob possibly losing some votes himself because there are people who don't like being controlled by "dictatorial conspirators" trying to take away artistic licenses by use of lurid pink frames (scarlet letters, or something like that)?

Both were meant in jest of course, though I personally think just deleting way-off-subject posts is the easiest, surest and quickest method to really get people's attention

Cheers, Brian

[Frank Noordenbos]

I meant the comment about "losing votes", Brian.
But I admit, the word "provocative" is a little too strong.

Cheers, Frank

[Daniela Brocca]

I asked yesterday the winner Graham Hobbs to tell us if he agrees to moderate next month NPC. At the time I don't have any answer. We will wait till tomorrow evening and then ask the second. Daniela

[BWS's ghost]

Quote Graham Hobbs:

(in the October NPC thread)

Hi folks-

thanks so much for all you votes - it's very flattering to win a popular vote when there are so many talented Panoramio photographers - but thanks even more for all your lovely comments - and a special thanks too to that Guy in Masset who suggested I enter my picture in the first place . I will be moderating the November NPC - admittedly having no idea what that entails, but hey!

The subject will be "Pictures of the Wind"

Yeah, so you can't photograph the wind - but you can photograph its effects...

Have fun

Graham

I predict a lot of blurry pictures

So, tornadoes and hurricanes, to waving flags and sailboats then, Graham?

[Daniela Brocca]

I hope there is someone who want to help Graham by moderating and using the Toolkit if he needs help

[BWS's ghost]

By "blurry" I didn't mean off-subject, but blurred due to wind speeds affecting unsteady tripods or photographers, or due to artistic effect!

Graham really only needs to define the subject, then start and end the entry and voting periods on or about the usual times. I can help with the starting/ending periods at midnight if timing is a problem, or he can just adjust the times to suit himself. The results can be posted by anyone with knowledge of the Toolkit.

The Toolkit even creates an award certificate now. I didn't think that would be possible (had even joked about it before), but now it seems to be available. Thanks a lot to the Toolkit Wizards, Rob and Wim!

Cheers, Brian

[Daniela Brocca]

Graham ,I recommend to define the subject with a clear description of the topic, as it doesn't seems so obvious. What do you mean with its effects? The wawes, the rocks, the trees or what ? Daniela

[BWS's ghost]

It's obvious to me, but I'm just one person

I think the subject includes anything where it's obvious that the wind is blowing or has been: waving flags, sailboats, windsurfers, kitesurfers, kites flying, umbrellas inside out, people leaning into a strong wind, trees bent permanently (or by a current gust), spinning windmills (blurred by long exposure, not "frozen&quot, tornadoes, waterspouts, destruction caused by a hurricane or a hurricane in progress ...

I don't think rocks or waves (unless it's obvious the wind is blowing the tops off them) would be a good match to Graham's subject.

Just my opinion, which may contrast with Graham's, so I'll shut up now

[bainketa]

I think we are panicking. The subject is clear enough for me, but as Brian says: Just from my point of view...

[Dottor Topy]

Every time the subject seems clear enough,but every time we see a lot of off-topic pics. This subject is beautiful but.....

[Piero Genova]

I agree almost completely with Brian. With regard to the waves or rocks I think that they can’t be arbitrarily excluded. If I were the moderator, I'd rather permissive: the subject, however very beautiful, is not suitable to strict interpretations. Come on, let people imagine what effects has the wind ...

[Sergio Canobbio]

Quote Piero Genova:

I agree almost completely with Brian. With regard to the waves or rocks I think that they can’t be arbitrarily excluded. If I were the moderator, I'd rather permissive: the subject, however very beautiful, is not suitable to strict interpretations. Come on, let people imagine what effects has the wind ...

...And let the people judge by themselves if a photo is off topic.

I couldn't agree more!

[Piero Genova]

Who said this? Obviously the moderator will decide.

I only meant that this is a very special subject, and for this reason deciding on off-topic may be particularly arbitrary. For example, some rocks are actually shaped by the wind. Those rocks might be excluded as the others? ...Good luck, Graham!

[Daniela Brocca]

That 's why I ask Graham to define the subject very well. He is the only person who will decide on this and tell the user they are off topic during the game, so that they have time to change or withdraw their photos. Before voting he will have to put the remaining off topic photos in the voting machine, framing them in rosa.

[RoarX]

I agree with Brian here. Graham Hobbs should come up with some examples of what he had in mind. If he refuse to do so, he should also let us know, so we know how freely we can interpretate the topic.

My interpretation of the subject "pictures of the wind" is limited to the visible effect of the wind blowing in a particular moment, not through long time. Things like steady state sand dunes (in calm wind), aftermath of a storm, wind eroded landforms etc would be of topic. Flying grains of sand/ snow, waving flags, flying debris in a storm, people leaning on the wind, waving fields of grass etc would be on topic. But that is my opinion... So, i would be nice if Graham could clarify a bit.

[Neanderthaler]

It´s a nice topic, and I already know exactly which photo I will offer...and I fear it will be terrible off topic for the most of you!

[Daniela Brocca]

I invited Graham to come to the forum .

[Graham Hobbs]

Hi folks - I really didn't mean this to be difficult - I left the subject quite vague to give full rein to people's imagination - what matters is that the picture is one preferably of a scenic/ landscape nature (which is what Panoramio was conceived for) of some landscape feature or man-made object in the landscape that is either

a) shaped by, or

b) being moved by

the wind

(or both)

In the case of rocks, mentionmed above - some rocks are shaped by the wind, some aren't. If they are they qualify, if they aren't, they don't - it's as simple as that.

I'm looking to inspire ideas, not to see how many entries I can delete - so stick by the simple guidelines, and let your imagination run free. If you have any more questions, the answer is blowin' in the wind

Graham

[BWS's ghost]

Quote Graham Hobbs:

... I left the subject quite vague to give full rein to people's imagination ... stick by the simple guidelines, and let your imagination run free.

Hi Graham,

There are several NPC moderators who can assure you that entrants will often fail to read or follow simple guidelines, let alone more complex guidelines. Writing a well-defined subject definition is a very delicate balancing act. Good luck!

Especially for the non-English speakers, you should probably include some good example photos in the opening post. I think that would have helped many people last month. Oliviero had many great examples on the front page of his own gallery, but they were not shown as examples in the opening post of the NPC entry thread.

Of course, you should allow creativity to flow as freely as possible. It's just hoped that it doesn't flow so far "outside the box" that it gets people all wet and bothered once again (about off-subject entries).

Cheers, Brian

[apojapo]

I really don't think its a good idea to give some sample photos to make the subject more clear. A few examples are still only a few and I'm afraid those examples could affect the interpretation of the subject. A good discription, like this one, must be sufficient I think. If it still isn't clear to anyone, because of some translation problems for example, they must ask for some clearance in this topic.

In the previous subject there were some off-topic entries but I don't think it matters as long as the outcome shows what the subject is.

[BWS's ghost]

Yes, it's possible that some people might be misled into thinking that sample photos are the only types of shots that are allowed. Providing samples is just meant to help those people who generally have trouble deciding, or speak no English. Those people would at least be pointed in the right direction. Of course, those others who understand the subject clearly, and people with more photographic experience in general, will certainly not need samples to help them decide on a good entry.

[Kovács /Kari/ Károly]

: Will NPC be November? :

[Sárdi A. Zoltán Budapest]

: : :

Now, what's up? There will be no November 2010. NPC competition? I stayed awake in vain - we had 02:00 hours (daylight saving time is over!)

[hajbakrisz]

What happened? Why not started the NPC?

Gone with the Wind?


Just do something wrong?

Cheers, Krisz

[szenteworks]

Hi !!

Good luck to everyone !

Szente

[Antonio Andreatta]

Graham, Graham, Grahaaammmm! .... I told him to watch the little snake!!

[D. Alexandru Ioan]

I've waited for the contest to start just to point out that chosing such difficult subjects only to show of with a picture in your gallery is not really a great ideea since it will scare most of the participants. I'm quite interested in how many will be this month... but I guess that is no problem, you'll get plenty of votes anyway and perpetuate this tehnic of electing subjects that match the choosers galery...

Good luck!

[Cobretti]

I wonder if Graham likes to sleep till noon Calm down people. Maybe he has more pressing things to do, or simply forgotten

[D. Alexandru Ioan]

No complains about photos not matching with the subject so far? That's odd... I propouse to the winer that the next month's subject to be, well, "photography" or, better, "what comed up when you've pressed the shutter", what do you say guys?

[RobStamp]

I’m feeling lonely. Please come and give me some company in the Bulgarian KBN,
see game thread and comment thread

I hope you get the gist of it all with your favourite e-Translator. Is it a new game?

The details of the voting and scoring is yet to be decided, whether the best combined score, or two categories of winner in one contest, or should each set of three photos be voted on jointly.

But for a test of whether the idea can work, or be developed from lessons learnt, there does need to be a respectable number of entries, and I mean photographers, because even 60 photos is only 20 photographers.

While I hope there is a good level of tolerance, I am sure that some small effort with the Bulgarian language will be most appreciated within the Bulgarian forum.

[Graham Hobbs]

I have just spent about 20 minutes writing a message which has disappeared with an accidental touch of the keyboard. This is fairly typical of the time I’ve been having with this competition!
OK – try again!

I want to start with a very necessary apology for doing a poor, or non-existent , job as moderator. This month has been a bit of a farce, and I apologise.
The reason for this is to try to learn from what has gone wrong, to stop it happening again.

1) – Unforeseen circumstances: I had a major loss of internet at the start of the process, and it is still, at best patchy. I can’t always match the time I have available with the the time I will have a connection. Add to this that I have children who need the internet for homework, and my time is limited and often non-existent.

Second, I’ve had a major and on-going unanticipated work-load which was dumped on me after I had agreed to moderate.
Both of these circumstances are problematic, coming together especially so, but as time goes on, they will not be unique

2) Ignorance: - this was only the second or third time I’ve entered the NPC, and each time it was at the suggestion of somebody else - although I liked the idea of the competition, especially as an answer to all the spamming associated with the ‘official’ competitions, I really had little idea how it worked and no thought of actually winning!

I am not up on how web pages or protocols or whatever work – I need very clear simple instructions about what to do. Although Daniela has patiently told me what I should be doing on several occasions, it’s sometimes difficult for somebody who knows what they are doing to realise just how stupid other people are about things. Fumbling your way through things takes much longer than doing them properly, and when you are busy and with limited access to the internet, you might not have that time.

Might I suggest, therefore, that somebody write a clear timetable of what needs to be done and when, clear instructions as to how to do it, and links to people who can offer technical help to the less competent or less experienced user. This should be posted where it can easily be found, and a link to it given to competition winners so that they can judge whether they are able to take on the role of moderator. It won’t prevent unexpected workloads or internet problems, but it will make it much easier for people to maximise the use of the time that they have available.

Thanks

Graham

[RobStamp]

Hi Graham and All, I volunteer to make a start on something, primarily to avoid several people working on something at the same time. I will take guidance from what Bruno did with a "how to" for the CSP, see http://www.panoramio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=375467#375467

With something in place, it can then be improved, after all, my skill is with talking to computers, not so much with instructions for people to follow ;-(

Cheers, Rob

[Daniela Brocca]

I'm sure someone can help to simplify, if needed.

[BWS's ghost]

Sorry to hear Graham's frustrations with the moderation job.

Perhaps I oversimplify (Wow! That's quite a sequence of "Help" in the CSP!) but I've added everything I think any NPC mod really needs to know, and some basic step-by-step directions in the opening post.

Unfortunately, past mods have made the job look like daily drudgery when it should never take more than an hour's work on 3 to 4 days of the month (the 1st, 10th and 20th/21st).

Daniela kindly fixes all the badly #'d and badly formatted entries and votes. There is also a "Forum moderation" topic under "Questions and Support" to request general forum help to fix bad forum posts, in case Daniela goes on vacation or is otherwise unavailable.

Sorry Rob, I may have duplicated your efforts, unless you are creating screen sequences and adding details about use of the Toolkit and the creation of an award certificate.

Cheers, Brian