Name:hu

[András P.]

Hi Slovak OSM Community!

What do you suppose we should use in the name:hu where the Hungarian name is not completely obvious?

For example:

Štvrtok na Ostrove 

in Hungarian it was only Csütörtök  but on the street signs it is Csallóközcsütörtök.

https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0tvrtok_na_Ostrove

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cs%C3%BCt%C3%B6rt%C3%B6k_(telep%C3%BCl%C3%A9s)

https://www.stvrtoknaostrove.sk/hu

So should we use the "official" Hungarian name or what is on the street sign? I put official in ""-s as you can see even this village uses the other name on their website.

Same situation with Čakany. 

Andras

[Jozef Matejička]

I would put in name:hu official name and into https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:alt_name the short name.

But since this might be a sensitive topic for some, I am looking for an another view. 

Jozef 

Dne st 6. 1. 2021 17:44 uživatel András P. <pribilins...@gmail.com> napsal:

--
Túto správu ste dostali, pretože v Skupinách Google ste odberateľom skupiny "Openstreetmap Slovakia".
V prípade, že chcete zrušiť odber tejto skupiny a prestať od nej prijímať e-maily, zašlite e-mail na adresu osm_sk+un...@googlegroups.com.
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[A.In.The.K A.In.The.K]

agreed:

name:hu=

alt_name:hu=

shell work, anyone else with better "more correct" ideas.

Sent from my iPhone

On 6 Jan 2021, at 19:22, Jozef Matejička <matej...@gmail.com> wrote:



Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/CAGpHKC%3D5zTpDKi9e-y3b7nr5cShfw7OHidJ7yfje34qYC9jGYQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[András P.]

Just to make obivous:

By official I meant Hungarian name giving between 1898 and 1912. This was the era when they gave all settlements an unique name. The Hungarian Wikipedia uses these names today.

Is there any Slovak site where the official Hungarian names listed? If not:

a/ we can use the Hungarian Wikipedia names

b/ we can use what is on the street sign below the Slovak name (usually the settlement uses this name on their webpage)

Sorry if I was confusing.

[Slavomír Huštatý]

It was not confusing, it was polite way to tell you that Austro-Hungarian monarchy lost in WW1, that Hungary lost in WW2 and that there was a lot of repression done on Czechoslovak/Czech/Slovak citizens in times of hungarian occupation of these "territories". Hope this explains you our feelings about your initiative and pre-WW1 topics.

Have a nice life.

Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/d5188dde-44a8-46f2-bc67-36226671efdcn%40googlegroups.com.

[András P.]

Sorry I didn't mean to make this history topic. 

I had just one simple question.

" name:hu=official name in Hungarian " quote from OSM Multilingual wiki page at Slovak part

Where can I check the official name? That is the simple question and we can close this topic. 

[ircd...@inmail.sk]

Štvrtok na Ostrove

official HU name Csallóközcsütörtök

Čakany

official HU name Csákány

use government regulation 534/2011 on https://www.slov-lex.sk/pravne-predpisy/SK/ZZ/2011/534/

Dátum: štvrtok 7. januára 2021, čas: 9:21:17 UTC+1, odosielateľ: András P.

[ircd...@inmail.sk]

Skontroloval som podľa toho obce v okrese Rožňava, tak niektoré mali chybné názvy a zdroj bol Multilingual settlement names - Slovakia, part 1-4 - Source: wikipedia.

Rudná chybne Rozsnyórudna správne Rudna

Silická Brezová chybne Szádvárborsa správne Borzova

Lúčka chybne Lúcska správne Lucska

Kružná chybne Berzétekörös správne Kőrös

Hrušov chybne Magasmajtény správne Körtvélyes

pri tom som zistil, že obec Kunova Teplica nemá bod place=village a existuje aj ako admin_level=9 https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2381091 aj admin_level=10 https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2381032 pritom je to samostatná obec.

Mohol by to niekto doplniť/opraviť? Do relácií si netrúfam babrať, nemám s tým skúsenosti.

Dátum: štvrtok 7. januára 2021, čas: 9:42:02 UTC+1, odosielateľ: ircd...@inmail.sk

[Tomas Kovacik]

tie slovenske nazvy v jazyku mensin by mali ist do samostatneho tagu , nemaju nic s tym ako sa danym obciam hovori v madarsku

--

Túto správu ste dostali, pretože v Skupinách Google ste odberateľom skupiny "Openstreetmap Slovakia".
V prípade, že chcete zrušiť odber tejto skupiny a prestať od nej prijímať e-maily, zašlite e-mail na adresu osm_sk+un...@googlegroups.com.

Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/712a8209-58f8-41d2-92b8-b16ea357d70dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Tibor Jamečný]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 10:59 AM ircd...@inmail.sk <ircd...@inmail.sk> wrote:

pri tom som zistil, že obec Kunova Teplica nemá bod place=village a existuje aj ako admin_level=9 https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2381091 aj admin_level=10 https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2381032 pritom je to samostatná obec.

Mohol by to niekto doplniť/opraviť? Do relácií si netrúfam babrať, nemám s tým skúsenosti.

To zas nejaky iniciativny "mapper" bezdovodne odmazal v CS 24840870 (t.j. pred cca siestimi rokmi). Povodne to bol tento bod: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26036691/history

Skusim revert daneho CS vecer (ak ma nikto nepredbehne). Potom by mal byt dany bod vrateny aj do povodnych admin relacii.

T.

[András P.]

Thank you!

[Miro Mirecnet]

To si mu dobre napisal.

Obcas aj nemcom treba pripomenut, ze geografia a historia uzsko suvisia :D

Netreba na to zabudat. Zomrelo preto uplne zbytocne 18 000 000 ludi a co prislo potom...

https://youtu.be/-wGQGEOTf4E

https://youtu.be/VjpRZkbttSk

št 7. 1. 2021 o 9:02 Slavomír Huštatý <slavomir...@gmail.com> napísal(a):

Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/CAP%3Dsg5JVFBPWaAWp1h7-Q%2BCcA%3DAL99E22NcYFpprKmQSjn2SLw%40mail.gmail.com.

[||]

> to si mu dobre napisal.

Ja si myslim opak. Nepatri to sem.

[A.In.The.K A.In.The.K]

Suhlas, Nepatri to sem.

Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/68a6a8a8-2b46-4d03-ad23-2d41798413f1n%40googlegroups.com.

[slavomir...@gmail.com]

Dostal svoju odpoved - https://www.slov-lex.sk/pravne-predpisy/SK/ZZ/2011/534/

Viac mu netreba, snad pri svojom zaujme o SR ponahadzuje/skontroluje aj rusinske a ukrajinske nazvy. Tie romske su identicke so slovenskymi, tak tie moze preskocit.

Prekladat do madarciny ine nazvy miest a obci ako tie, o ktorych pojednava sucasna slovenska legislativa je zbytocne.

Madarsku okupaciu Kosic som nastastie vdaka svojmu veku nezazil, no tu nevrazivost voci okupantom tu bolo citit az do smrti ludi, ktori ju zazili... a to mam polovicu rodiny s madarskou narodnostou, aby ste si nemysleli, ze som nejaky obmedzeny nacionalisticky extremista :) .

Bratislava ma tablicku "Pozsony" na vstupe? https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozsony

Zilina tuto "Zsolna" ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDilina 

Slovensko tiez nenazyvame "Felvidek" https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn%C3%A1_zem

A tieto slovenske nazvy im zrejme tiez nepchame do HU mapy:

https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoznam_miest_v_Ma%C4%8Farsku

A na zaver na odlahcenie Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk raz povedal - "O hranice se nejedná, o hranice se střílí." ;)

[ircd...@inmail.sk]

Dátum: piatok 8. januára 2021, čas: 14:50:11 UTC+1, odosielateľ: slavomir...@gmail.com

Dostal svoju odpoved - https://www.slov-lex.sk/pravne-predpisy/SK/ZZ/2011/534/

Viac mu netreba, snad pri svojom zaujme o SR ponahadzuje/skontroluje aj rusinske a ukrajinske nazvy. Tie romske su identicke so slovenskymi, tak tie moze preskocit.

Ukrajinčinu aj nemčinu som pridal https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/97128475 na rusínčinu som ešte nehľadal kód. 

Prekladat do madarciny ine nazvy miest a obci ako tie, o ktorych pojednava sucasna slovenska legislativa je zbytocne.

Už sú preložené, niekto bol aktívny už dávnejšie :) https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26036762

[Andrej Kačur]

Hi András,

if interested, take a look into this (semi)official translation of the government decree 211/1999 - https://www.slov-lex.sk/documents/10184/81744/221_1999.pdf/09fb73ca-6dbc-45b8-adc2-aa1745f98635  (or the rest of already translated laws/regulations see here https://www.slov-lex.sk/madarsky-jazyk )

Anyway, I do not see your activity as offensive one towards history. When I looked up for birth/marriage records of my ancestors in our state archives, I had to use the Hungarian names of their villages and Hungarian pronunciation of their names and surnames, even if they were from purely Slovak or Ruthenian villages (ok, that is the dark side of our common history starting in the late 19. century :)). Therefore a correct Hungarian name of villages/towns located nowadays in Slovakia is welcomed in the tag "Name:hu" (in my opinion) :) The question is - what is correct, the current goverment decree or a list from 1910's.

Andrej

Dátum: štvrtok 7. januára 2021, čas: 9:21:17 UTC+1, odosielateľ: András P.

Sorry I didn't mean to make this history topic. 

[Andrej Shadura]

On Fri, 8 Jan 2021, at 14:50, slavomir...@gmail.com wrote:

Bratislava ma tablicku "Pozsony" na vstupe? https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozsony

Zilina tuto "Zsolna" ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDilina 

Slovensko tiez nenazyvame "Felvidek" https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn%C3%A1_zem

Dresden má „tabličku“ Drážďany? München má Mníchov? Ak nie, čo to je za argument?

A ináč ja si tiež myslím, že tvoja odpoveď bola absolútne nevhodná a antagonizujúca. Navyše ide o názov v oblasti, kde maďarská menšina je väčšinou, tak potom otázka o správnom názve je úplne na mieste.

-- 

S pozdravom

  Andrej

[Tomas Kovacik]

Tiez sa zastavam nazor, ze name:hu by tam mali riesit madari medzi sebou, otazka je, ci slovensky nazov v madarcine je to spravne. Nemozeme diktovat ostatnym statom ake maju pouzivat nazvy v svojom jazyku

--
Túto správu ste dostali, pretože v Skupinách Google ste odberateľom skupiny "Openstreetmap Slovakia".
V prípade, že chcete zrušiť odber tejto skupiny a prestať od nej prijímať e-maily, zašlite e-mail na adresu osm_sk+un...@googlegroups.com.

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[A.In.The.K A.In.The.K]

pokial mame uzakonene nazvy obci v madarcine na nasom uzemi tak IMHO ano, mozeme im povedat ze toto su oficialne nazvy

Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/CADcP%2Bi%3DZhDAXzyJeC6O5mi%3DDK6sHfr1_4zn7YXkn7fRKaoyoxA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tomas Kovacik]

Myslis zakonom co konci na hraniciach? Uvedomte si ze name:hu je meno pouzivane v madarsku. Aj my mame ako nejake dokumenty, ktore hovoria o tom ake nazvy statov mame/musime pouzivat a nikto nam nekeca do toho co si rendrujeme na nasej mape!

Ak chcete zobraziť túto diskusiu na webe, prejdite na adresu https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/osm_sk/D21EF77F-109F-486E-8C86-EF8AE2DE47D2%40gmail.com.

[Andrej Shadura]

On Sat, 9 Jan 2021, at 11:09, Tomas Kovacik wrote:

Myslis zakonom co konci na hraniciach? Uvedomte si ze name:hu je meno pouzivane v madarsku. Aj my mame ako nejake dokumenty, ktore hovoria o tom ake nazvy statov mame/musime pouzivat a nikto nam nekeca do toho co si rendrujeme na nasej mape!

Pozor: name:hu je meno, používané v *maďarčine*, nie v *Maďarsku*!

-- 

S pozdravom

  Andrej

[Tomas Kovacik]

A o tom rozhoduju madari 

--
Túto správu ste dostali, pretože v Skupinách Google ste odberateľom skupiny "Openstreetmap Slovakia".
V prípade, že chcete zrušiť odber tejto skupiny a prestať od nej prijímať e-maily, zašlite e-mail na adresu osm_sk+un...@googlegroups.com.

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[Andrej Shadura]

Ahoj

On Sat, 9 Jan 2021, at 11:28, Tomas Kovacik wrote:

A o tom rozhoduju madari 

Samozrejme, ale Maďari nie sú len v Maďarsku, sú predsa aj v tej obci, tak v prvom rade mali by jej obyvatelia rozhodovať.

-- 

Andrej

[Andrej Shadura]

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, at 11:14, Tomas Kovacik wrote:

tie slovenske nazvy v jazyku mensin by mali ist do samostatneho tagu , nemaju nic s tym ako sa danym obciam hovori v madarsku

Ten tag je name:hu.

-- 

Cheers,

  Andrej

[Andrej Shadura]

On Thu, 7 Jan 2021, at 10:59, ircd...@inmail.sk wrote:

Skontroloval som podľa toho obce v okrese Rožňava, tak niektoré mali chybné názvy a zdroj bol Multilingual settlement names - Slovakia, part 1-4 - Source: wikipedia.

Rudná chybne Rozsnyórudna správne Rudna

Silická Brezová chybne Szádvárborsa správne Borzova

Lúčka chybne Lúcska správne Lucska

Kružná chybne Berzétekörös správne Kőrös

Hrušov chybne Magasmajtény správne Körtvélyes 

Povedal by som že terajšie názvy (z vyššie uvedeného zdroja) by mali ísť do name:Hu, pôvodné (za čias Uhorska) do old_name:hu, prípadne alt_name:hu.

-- 

Cheers,

  Andrej

[Aceman444]

Hi, I'd say use name:hu for the official names from the street (city_limit) signs or the official govt document as given to you here.

For the pre 1912 names use old_name:hu .

Thanks.

Dátum: štvrtok 7. januára 2021, čas: 8:56:30 UTC+1, odosielateľ: András P.

[András P.]

Thank you for your answers. I tried to google translate all of the posts but it's obvious that almost all of you agrees that 1999 regulation should go to name:hu and pre 1912 names to old_name:hu.

I also agree on this and I will write to the Hungarian Community to make this unified and avoid the edit wars.

[Andrej Shadura]

Szia,

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021, at 16:01, András P. wrote:

Thank you for your answers. I tried to google translate all of the posts but it's obvious that almost all of you agrees that 1999 regulation should go to name:hu and pre 1912 names to old_name:hu.

I also agree on this and I will write to the Hungarian Community to make this unified and avoid the edit wars.

Nagyon szépen köszönöm :)

Feel free to ask again should there be something else to discuss.

I hope you didn’t get much offended by some reactions you received. Unfortunately, there are still some tensions and bitter memories, and some people are more sensitive about those things, and unfortunately the politicians are not helping to bring them to an end.

-- 

Cheers,

  Andrej

[András P.]

Hi,

I have a few questions:

1) Am I right to in Slovakia you never put 'ulica' into the street name? But others, like námestie yes?

2) I have a lot of concers with settlement parts. I don't see the whole thing unified. Let me show you some examples:

 a/ https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.1149/17.4744

 Novy Zivot is the village. (place=village) Technically Eliásovce and Svaty Peter belongs to it. Still those are also place=village. Shouldn't they be place=hamlet?

b/ main settlements names are doubled in name tag? - https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/48.0553/17.4532

Lehnice has a settlement part, Sása. Now the feature is correct, place=hamlet, but the name is Lehnice-Sása. Is it necessary to put the main settlement name again in the name tag? 

c/ Parentheses in names? - https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/48.1404/17.5853

A different way again to show the connections. Also again I am not sure because Nové Osady belongs to Velké Ulany and those are again place=village.

Andras

[ircd...@inmail.sk]

Hi

Dátum: sobota 16. januára 2021, čas: 12:04:17 UTC+1, odosielateľ: András P.

Hi,

I have a few questions:

1) Am I right to in Slovakia you never put 'ulica' into the street name? But others, like námestie yes?

https://groups.google.com/g/osm_sk/c/NEJlJhUbhWA/m/QZgF71ZpBwAJ

 

2) I have a lot of concers with settlement parts. I don't see the whole thing unified. Let me show you some examples:

 a/ https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.1149/17.4744

 Novy Zivot is the village. (place=village) Technically Eliásovce and Svaty Peter belongs to it. Still those are also place=village. Shouldn't they be place=hamlet?

Use official register municipality/village name, suburb name, address  https://portal.minv.sk/wps/portal/domov/com.ness.ra/com.ness.ra_/

Nový Život place=village https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/57745576 in county okres Dunajská Streda has 3 place=suburb

Eliášovce

Tonkovce

Vojtechovce

Svätý Peter place=village in county okres Komárno

Svätý Peter  https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4489662071 wrong?

 

b/ main settlements names are doubled in name tag? - https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/48.0553/17.4532

Lehnice has a settlement part, Sása. Now the feature is correct, place=hamlet, but the name is Lehnice-Sása. Is it necessary to put the main settlement name again in the name tag? 

Lehnice  place=village in county okres Dunajská Streda has 5 place=suburb

Malý Lég
Masníkovo
Sása
Veľký Lég
Lehnice

[Aceman444]

Dátum: sobota 16. januára 2021, čas: 14:39:12 UTC+1, odosielateľ: ircd

2) I have a lot of concers with settlement parts. I don't see the whole thing unified. Let me show you some examples:

 a/ https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.1149/17.4744

 Novy Zivot is the village. (place=village) Technically Eliásovce and Svaty Peter belongs to it. Still those are also place=village. Shouldn't they be place=hamlet?

Use official register municipality/village name, suburb name, address  https://portal.minv.sk/wps/portal/domov/com.ness.ra/com.ness.ra_/

No nejak to teraz nefunguje.

 

Nový Život place=village https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/57745576 in county okres Dunajská Streda has 3 place=suburb

Eliášovce

Tonkovce

Vojtechovce

V OSM mame este 4 cast (a ma aj admin_boundary) s nazvom Maly Mager ... Co s tym?

Mozete pozriet aj tie susedne Zlate Klasy, a ten Velky Mager (Rastice) ?

 

Svätý Peter place=village in county okres Komárno

Svätý Peter  https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4489662071 wrong?

Asi ano, bolo to neighbourhood a niekto to upgradol :) 

[Aceman444]

Dátum: sobota 16. januára 2021, čas: 12:04:17 UTC+1, odosielateľ: András P.

Hi,

I have a few questions:

1) Am I right to in Slovakia you never put 'ulica' into the street name? But others, like námestie yes?

Yes.

 

2) I have a lot of concers with settlement parts. I don't see the whole thing unified. Let me show you some examples:

 a/ https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.1149/17.4744

 Novy Zivot is the village. (place=village) Technically Eliásovce and Svaty Peter belongs to it. Still those are also place=village. Shouldn't they be place=hamlet?

Yes, only places with city_id tag represent the a whole standalone municipality. They are also members of administrative boundary relations of admin_level 9.. with role admin_centre.

The 'place' should then be 'village', 'town', 'city'.

Parts of villages should be 'hamlet', 'suburb', 'neighbourhood', etc.

There may be some errors yet, but what are you trying to fix? How does it relate to the hungarian names?

 

b/ main settlements names are doubled in name tag? - https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/48.0553/17.4532

Lehnice has a settlement part, Sása. Now the feature is correct, place=hamlet, but the name is Lehnice-Sása. Is it necessary to put the main settlement name again in the name tag? 

No.

 

c/ Parentheses in names? - https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/48.1404/17.5853

A different way again to show the connections. Also again I am not sure because Nové Osady belongs to Velké Ulany and those are again place=village.

Yes, those parentheses look wrong, but the nodes are place=suburb (I'd guess hamlet would be better, is it was in the past). But there is no node for Nove Osady and the admin_level=10 relation for Nove Osady has no admin_centre.

[Dodko]

Dátum: pondelok 1. februára 2021, čas: 0:34:14 UTC+1, odosielateľ: Aceman444

Dátum: sobota 16. januára 2021, čas: 14:39:12 UTC+1, odosielateľ: ircd

2) I have a lot of concers with settlement parts. I don't see the whole thing unified. Let me show you some examples:

 a/ https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.1149/17.4744

 Novy Zivot is the village. (place=village) Technically Eliásovce and Svaty Peter belongs to it. Still those are also place=village. Shouldn't they be place=hamlet?

Use official register municipality/village name, suburb name, address  https://portal.minv.sk/wps/portal/domov/com.ness.ra/com.ness.ra_/

No nejak to teraz nefunguje.

 Momentálne funguje.

 

Nový Život place=village https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/57745576 in county okres Dunajská Streda has 3 place=suburb

Eliášovce

Tonkovce

Vojtechovce

V OSM mame este 4 cast (a ma aj admin_boundary) s nazvom Maly Mager ... Co s tym?

Malý Ma­ger  V roku 1940 zanikla pripojením k obci Tonkovce. 

https://www.e-obce.sk/obec/novyzivot/2-historia.html

 

Mozete pozriet aj tie susedne Zlate Klasy, a ten Velky Mager (Rastice) ?

Obec Zlaté Klasy okres Dunajská streda nemá ďalšie časti obce

Obec ani časť obce s názvom Rastice neexistuje.

Obec ani časť obce ktorá by obsahovala slovo Mager neexistuje (teda ani Veľký ani malý Mager)

Zlaté Klasy (historicky slov. Veľký Mager,

https://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlat%C3%A9_Klasy

[Aceman444]

Dátum: pondelok 1. februára 2021, čas: 11:59:02 UTC+1, odosielateľ: Dodko

Nový Život place=village https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/57745576 in county okres Dunajská Streda has 3 place=suburb

Eliášovce

Tonkovce

Vojtechovce

V OSM mame este 4 cast (a ma aj admin_boundary) s nazvom Maly Mager ... Co s tym?

Malý Ma­ger  V roku 1940 zanikla pripojením k obci Tonkovce. 

https://www.e-obce.sk/obec/novyzivot/2-historia.html

Zistil som, ze je to dodnes katastralne uzemie (cislo 842966), tak mozno odtial je to naimportovane. 

Tak isto tie Rastice. Velky Mager som nenasiel, ale ako pisete, vyzera to byt stary nazov pre Zlate Klasy (alebo mozno pre tie Rastice, ako je v OSM).

Nazov Velky Mager tam dal nas uz znamy Ivor Svihran, ktory dodnes neuviedol odkial to opisuje, ale mam take naznaky, ze z nejakych 100-rocnych knih.

Dakujem