water based finish opinions

[Robbie O'Brien]

What are you using for water based finishes these days that you could recommend?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks,

Robbie

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[JohnParchem]

When I do use WB I use Target Coating EM6000. It supposedly is repairable, not real sure how long. I liked it because, it leveled real well when sprayed, had a good look without a blue tint, and most importantly the individual coats do combine with each other so there are no sanding witness lines.  Care needs to be taken to keep the coats around 3 mil wet or the product can have a blue tint.

I mostly spray Royal Lac post cat now.

[Robbie O'Brien]

Thanks John. I have heard good things about this product.

Robbie

O'Brien Guitars obrienguitars.com Keep track of the changes going on now at O'Brien Guitars by signing up for my newsletter

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From: obrien...@googlegroups.com <obrien...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of JohnParchem <johnp...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 11:32
To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum <obrien...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: water based finish opinions

 

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[Paul McEvoy]

I don't think you'd call it water based but I really like Osmo.  

[JohnParchem]

I wipe Osmo on some of my hardwood floors. It is pretty tough,

[Paul McEvoy]

I did a telecaster with a cherry neck and Osmo and it came out really nice.  Kind of a non-existent finish.  It just makes the wood look really nice.  

I prefer it to tru-oil in every regard.  The only thing I like tru-oil for right now is oiling milk pain finishes which it does a really nice job on.  But otherwise I think Osmo is much nicer.   

I did a really rushed job on curly maple telecaster neck that came out less nice but my workmanship was lacking.  

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[Sean Gilbert]

Mule guitars uses Osmo for the necks for a very nice effect.

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[Charles Tauber]

I've also had good results with Target EM6000. I've tried quite a few water-based finishes over the years and it's the closest I've tried to nitrocellulose lacquer in terms of its general application characteristics. I spray it with an HVLP system. I know someone who has good results brushing it on guitars.

I did NOT have good results with Target EM7000, their "high-build" version, but I believe they have discontinued it. I eventually concluded that the one can of it that I had was either to old or contaminated. I also didn't much like Target's water-based shellac sealer - for my tastes, it added too much orange color to the wood. 

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[jwsh...@q.com]

My last couple of builds I used General Finishes gloss. I like General Finishes for producing a relic effect. Scooter

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[Roger Pierce]

Stew Mac’s Wipe On Poly is pretty easy to use and can build up a nice gloss with careful application. I have used it on banjos and uke necks. I prefer French polish on the bodies using Robbie’s method. I have never tried a spray finish.

Roger Pierce

 

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From: Robbie O'Brien
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 10:21 AM
To: obrien-forum@googlegroups com
Subject: water based finish opinions

 

What are you using for water based finishes these days that you could recommend?

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[Chorobo]

In my humble opinion, water-based products will never be good or as good as other alternatives, and my guess is technology won't go as fast in this area to have something even competitive in the next 10 or 20 years. On the other hand waterborne is not only the future of tomorrow, but the future today. Sadly, their drawbacks on early stages of development got it bad reputation, and even now that the advances are tremendous, it's main drawback (the speed), is a direct confrontation with manufacturer's interests.  Even now, the state-of-the-art products can be basically thrown onto the guitar and you still get a decen result. Check out a video of master Robert where he basically does everything opposite as suggested by manufactured and man, that's a five digits finish.

For artisan makers, waterborne should be the choice. Not only it is way superior to shellac in almost everything related to protection. It takes less "working hours" and less technique. But it takes more patience and time than shellac to achieve a proper finish. Needless to say, I am a huge fan of it, not because of its "eco-friendly" connotations, but because of the fact that you can achieve a "pure wet" look, which is impossible with shellac.  

Car industry knows WAAY more about finishes than guitar making does, and they are adopting it, so it shouldn't be bad. Unfortunatelly the money the invest goes to formulas optimized for their particular application field. But there are great options for guitar makers.

Just my opinión. As many of you know, my customers can select ANY finish, (except polyester-based of course) , ranging from polished wax to 2K-Urethane.  But the choice that makes me happier is when they say waterborne. I think it is right in the middle of two equally vicious ends:  wax/oils - 2K finishes. 

I would love to have access to a wider range of products, being a little bit restricted here in Spain in regards brands and formulas. But still my favourite.

I will be reading with a lot of interest this topic, specially for any information on brands and stock I can get from Europe.  Application details , either by brush or guns settings are also on my interests list.

I am currently using traditional mop technique, metal scrapers and hand sanding. Buffing with roto-orbital polisher and waffle pads. I have buffing cotton disc and bar compounds but my current workshop configuration is not ideal to do that kind of polishing but hopefully in a future in a new shop I will switch to big buffing wheels.

Best regards, Merry Christmas and excuses for my English typos,

Paco Chorobo

[Paul McEvoy]

Are you making a difference between water based and water borne?  What would be an example of each?

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[Paco Chorobo]

In a waterbased product, the particles that will create the film on the surface are dissolved in the water. Artist water colours or tempera varnishes are an example. 

In a waterborne product, the "solids" are carried in a solvent, and this group is again dispersed and carried in water. 

(Solids + solvent) + water

(acrylic + glycol) + water

The difference is huge. Any waterbased product can be redissolved in water. Waterborne cannot because after water evaporates, polymerization inhibits going the way back.

This was the BIG mistake of marketing and labeling so now we have a plethora of products that we don't know exactly if they are acrylic, urethane or ketchup sauce. Don't dare to ask which secondary solvent it is using or what is the composition of the solids. 

Long story short. Get several products with good reviews or previously tested by other luthier and try by your own. No problem if it says waterbased because it will be probably waterborne. If it looks milky when applied thick that's waterborne for sure 100%

Best regards!!!

Paco

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[Steven Juehring]

 I'm using the Target Coating EM6000.

[John Peters]

For those using Target Coating, where are you spraying it?  I see that is says ultra low VOC, is it something a person could spray in their basement?

[Sean Gilbert]

Nobody has mentioned Crystal-Lac/Bright Tone. The reviews seem mixed on it. I spoke with the LMI representatives who stand by it as a product and believe that a lot of the poor results are due to people not having enough time to understand how the process of application differs from other finishing products. I'm thinking about it trying it on my next build and welcome any advice. It's either that or a french polish/shellac approach.

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[JohnParchem]

I have not tried Crystal-Lac but have been interested in it. Following forums I have found many people who try switching from nitro to any other finish especially waterborne tend to fail. I think that is what the LMI rep is saying. Nitro is really forgiving.   Many who think they are good at spraying a finish really only have experience spraying nitro. Care must be taken when spraying all of the waterborne products I have used and even the shellac based products I have sprayed.  I have had success with a number of the products trashed on forums. The only product I had trouble with was EM7000 a very high solid finish. In that case I sprayed the coats just a bit too thick and ended up with a blue instrument.  I think at the time Stewmac was pushing it as a replacement for their EB Colortone (which was rebranded EM6000).

[John Peters]

Also for these water based coatings, what pore filler are people using?  I have used both timber mate and aqua coat after sealer & before nitro.  I guess if I wanted to continue with those I'd have to shoot another layer of sealer prior to the water based topcoats.

[Charles Tauber]

I spray it outside or in the garage with the door open. It smells bad and is powerful, like many other finishes. Depending upon your circumstances, you might be able to get away with spraying it outside and letting it cure in the basement. It depends on how much ventilation you have and what level of smell/toxicity you and others in your house are willing to endure.

It needs to be made clear that many finishing materials, including many waterborne finishes, regardless of their quantity of VOC's, are not "healthy" finishes. Some require the use of cartridge respirators, others, "adequate" ventilation. 

One well-known, long-time Canadian guitar maker only French polishes his instruments these days. Over his four decades of guitar making, he says that he's tried just about every type of finish and found, for his health, the worst of them to be waterborne finishes. One of the down-sides to French polish is that it isn't as robust as some other finishes: it also doesn't provide the wet-look typical of lacquers and automotive-type finishes. 

In the end, there is no "perfect" finish that is all things in all situations. One simply chooses what combination of application, appearance and wood protection best suits one's situation and preferences. 

I spent decades "chasing" the high-gloss factory finishes of the 70's and 80's. The irony of it is that as tastes have changed, many factory finishes are now minimalist, open-pored satin or matte finishes, the look, feel and protection of which were always easy to achieve and well within the reach of the independent luthier or do-it-yourselfer. 

[Charles Tauber]

The most recent pore filler I've used on my last few waterborne-finished instruments was Brite-Tone. I wasn't thrilled with it, but it does, eventually, do the job. I could not fill pores in less than 4 to 5 applications. It dries very fast, which is nice, but clogs typical sandpaper almost instantly (when dry). (I found dry sanding with Mirka mesh abrasives with a dust collector works pretty well.) It scrapes well though. It is colourless and can be used, as part of the pore filling application, to fill small gaps and surface irregularities that are normally repaired as part of pre-finishing surface preparation. 

I've found that traditional oil-based paste pore fillers work acceptibly with waterborne finishes that I've used. I've not had a problem with compatibility, even with no sealer used between the filler and top coats. Of course, one would need to test that with one's chosen products. 

[Sean Gilbert]

Charles,

Thanks for your post - useful details. From a health perspective only, which finishes has your research led you to conclude are the safest for basement use? Let's not include Tru-oil.

My understanding is that shellac/french polish is probably the safest and requires the least in terms of special respiratory equipment. The LMI representatives thought that crystal-lac could be done all in a basement, but I didn't get the impression that it was based on a MSDS analysis of the product. The makers of Waterlox varnish also felt that their product did not pose a significant hazard for basement usage. 

I'm not sure if the above is accurate though nor where to place Crystal-Lac or EM7000.

Sean

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[Petroffski]

Several peeps have mentioned Osmo... I went to their website (I know nothing about Osmo) and it seems there are many Osmoids to choose from. Could anyone be so kind as to guide me/us to a specific Osmo product that is used for instrument finish?

Thank you-

Peter

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[David Strong]

I spray the EM6000 in my basement, high volume low pressure turbine spray system and a small exhaust fan pulling to the outside.  I like the finish. 

David 

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On Dec 30, 2021, at 11:48 AM, John Peters <johnpe...@gmail.com> wrote:

For those using Target Coating, where are you spraying it?  I see that is says ultra low VOC, is it something a person could spray in their basement?

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[Sean Gilbert]

Jeff House has a YouTube video on using Osmo. Matt Eich from Mule also has a clip somewhere in which he talks about his choice of Osmo products.

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[Charles Tauber]

Sean, 

Not trying to be evasive but there really isn't a single answer to your question. I'll try to explain why. 

When I first started making guitars in the late 1970's, you almost couldn't GIVE someone a guitar that did not have a high-gloss mirror finish on it. In those days, that meant you had two choices: nitrocellulose lacquer or automotive acrylic lacquers. The buying public had come to expect that a high-gloss, mirror factory-sprayed finish was what a "professional" instrument looked like. 

Fast-forward to current times and the buying public is now willing to accept almost anything in the way of an applied finish. Finishes found on factory guitars - and individual luthier guitars - are now anything from a minimalistic thin coating of a matte hard wax finish, with open pores, to a traditional filled-pore high-gloss mirror. Practically, that means one can use just about any finishing material, any application one wants. And, there are dozens from which to chose. The question then becomes, how does one chose what finish to use, and what application method to use? 

What finish to chose is at the intersection of several factors. The first factor is what appearance do you want? Open pores? Filled pores? High gloss, satin, matte? If you want a filled-pore, high-gloss mirror finish, for example, you will never get that with a wax finish or an oil finish. That eliminates many possible finish choices. 

 The second factor is how much protection of the wood do you want the finish to afford? A thick poly finish in almost indestructible. A wax finish provides very little protection. Shellac tends to be more fragile. 

The third factor is how do you want to apply it/what equipment do you have or what are you willing or able to afford? The best results for a sprayed finish are with a traditional compressor and gun or an HVLP system. Some finishes can be applied with a brush, others with a rag, others with a pad. It's pretty tough to achieve a factory-level high-gloss mirror with a pad application. To some extent, the application method eliminates certain types of finishes. 

A fourth factor is how reparable do you want the finish to be? Taylor-type UV-cured finishes are indestructible but at the expense of being impervious to chemical strippers and are difficult to repair invisibly. Shellac is easy to repair and nitrocellulose lacquer applications "burn" into previously applied finish. You can seamlessly apply more oil to an oil finish anytime.

Finally, there is the question of health. The healthiest finishing materials are the ones that you might eat, such as walnut oil or linseed oil. Does walnut oil provide the level of wood protection you want, the appearance you want, the ease of repair and ease of application you want, while being entirely benign?  Probably not. Probably no one finish does. And, that's the point. 

The choice of finish to use is chosen from the best compromise of all of these factors for your preferences and situation.  

Now, all that said, I've sprayed nitrocellulose lacquer in basement workshops. Do I recommend it? Absolutely not. Would I do it now? No. CAN it be done? Sure. Similarly, I've sprayed waterborne finishes in basement workshops. Similarly, I don't recommend it but it can be done. I've wiped-on solvent-based wipe-on poly on furniture. It's a great finish - probably even for guitars - but the fumes will knock your head off. There's no way I would apply that in a basement shop unless there are lots of windows and they are all open and can stay open for at least several days, with fans running. But it can be done, depending on the specifics of one's situation.

A few years ago, I attended a large wood show. Osmo had a booth there where they were demonstrating some of their finishes. The Osmo X, if I remember correctly, was one of the finishes they were demonstrating. Nice finish. Had a smell so bad that after five minutes I had a headache after standing near the guy applying it. I've used a different Osmo product to finish my outdoor patio wooden furniture. Nice finish, terrible smell that lingers for days. I've seen guitars finishes in Osmo products. It's an okay finish, but not what I want on instruments that I make: it just isn't the look and feel  I want.

A finish that I now use frequently on furniture and cutting boards is Oddies Oil. A friend of mine used it on a student model Ramirez that we refinished. (The origional finish was thick and heavily separating from the wood surface.) It would not be MY first choice for a guitar finish - due to my preferences of what an instrument finish should be, do and look like - but it is a wonderful finish. You can eat it. It has no solvent to evaporate. It has almost no smell. You don't need gloves or respirator and is applied with a cloth. It has a consistency thicker than honey. It belongs to the new class of finishes called "hard wax". You can't screw-up the application and can apply more anytime. If you sand the wood to 600 prior to applying the oil and then buff it afterwords you can achieve a nice glowing satin-plus sheen. 

My suggestion is to start by determining what YOU want from a finish that you apply to your instruments. Obviously one of the important criteria for you is the impact that the finish has on your health. 

[jwsh...@q.com]

There are certainly a multitude of finishes available for use on instruments!  I have got a lot of amusement from many of the comments on this subject.

In the comments the subjects covered included durability, ease of application, visual effect, satin, gloss, wet look and on and on. The fact that, if my memory is correct,  there was not one comment concerning the effect the different finishes have on the tone and timber of said instrument leads me to believe there are a lot of builders but not a lot of players!

A player is concerned first and foremost with the sound the instrument puts out and the effect on that tone created by the finish.

As with any comment on the forum it basically breaks down to individual preference which creates an opinion. Like other things we only have one of we all seem to have an opinion.

I know you didn't ask but here is mine. Every finish put on a green guitar has an effect on the sound of the guitar, PERIOD! 

Some finishes have more of an effect on the sound than others. Most all of the modern finishes do not affect the sound in a good way. If you are basically  a builder the visual is most important to you, in my opinion, which is ok with me.

In my opinion the finish that has the least effect on the all important sound of the instrument is traditional French polish. Is French polish as durable as some of the other modern finishes available? In my opinion no. Does that mean it can not be a durable finish if treated properly, no.

The instrument I am currently doing a 50,000 mile service on is traditional French polish. I have eight years of hard playing on this instrument and sometimes it was put up wet! I am not doing the service because the French polish needed it!

I think French polish is the safest finish to apply. I French polish in the living room with no fans or extra ventilation with absolutely no side effects. People sharing the same room are unaffected.

How many of you would be surprised to learn that shellac has been approved by the FDA as a food additive for many years. You have been eating it and didn't even know it because it caused you no problems!

If you want to know how most finishes affect the sound of a guitar plug your nose and talk.

Did any of you ever wonder why Robbie uses French polish in his one on one builds?  Scooter

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[Portlandplayer]

I've used  Crystal-Lac/Bright Tone gloss on maybe fifteen guitars and see no reason to switch. I have never seen a blue cast with it and I'm really picky about color. 

I have used their grain filler a few times and I'm done with it. They say it dries clear, but it will leave a film that shows up cloudy under the finish unless you remove absolutely every bit of it from the surface. Life is too short for that. I have used Stew Mac's water based filler with excellent results. Two or three coats and dried perfectly clear. 

[Portlandplayer]

Scooter.....I need to get my online name changed to Colorado Clem! 

[jwsh...@q.com]

Clem, how are things in Colorado? I pray you aren't close to the wild fires! Scooter

[jwsh...@q.com]

C.C., do you spray the Crystal-Lac/Bright Tone gloss? Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: Portlandplayer

Date: Thu, Dec 30, 2021 8:20 PM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: Selecting a Finish

Scooter.....I need to get my online name changed to Colorado Clem! 

On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 8:19:07 PM UTC-7 Portlandplayer wrote:

I've used  Crystal-Lac/Bright Tone gloss on maybe fifteen guitars and see no reason to switch. I have never seen a blue cast with it and I'm really picky about color. 

I have used their grain filler a few times and I'm done with it. They say it dries clear, but it will leave a film that shows up cloudy under the finish unless you remove absolutely every bit of it from the surface. Life is too short for that. I have used Stew Mac's water based filler with excellent results. Two or three coats and dried perfectly clear. 

On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 5:05:28 PM UTC-7 Scooter wrote:

There are certainly a multitude of finishes available for use on instruments!  I have got a lot of amusement from many of the comments on this subject.

In the comments the subjects covered included durability, ease of application, visual effect, satin, gloss, wet look and on and on. The fact that, if my memory is correct,  there was not one comment concerning the effect the different finishes have on the tone and timber of said instrument leads me to believe there are a lot of builders but not a lot of players!

A player is concerned first and foremost with the sound the instrument puts out and the effect on that tone created by the finish.

As with any comment on the forum it basically breaks down to individual preference which creates an opinion. Like other things we only have one of we all seem to have an opinion.

I know you didn't ask but here is mine. Every finish put on a green guitar has an effect on the sound of the guitar, PERIOD! 

Some finishes have more of an effect on the sound than others. Most all of the modern finishes do not affect the sound in a good way. If you are basically  a builder the visual is most important to you, in my opinion, which is ok with me.

In my opinion the finish that has the least effect on the all important sound of the instrument is traditional French polish. Is French polish as durable as some of the other modern finishes available? In my opinion no. Does that mean it can not be a durable finish if treated properly, no.

The instrument I am currently doing a 50,000 mile service on is traditional French polish. I have eight years of hard playing on this instrument and sometimes it was put up wet! I am not doing the service because the French polish needed it!

I think French polish is the safest finish to apply. I French polish in the living room with no fans or extra ventilation with absolutely no side effects. People sharing the same room are unaffected.

How many of you would be surprised to learn that shellac has been approved by the FDA as a food additive for many years. You have been eating it and didn't even know it because it caused you no problems!

If you want to know how most finishes affect the sound of a guitar plug your nose and talk.

Did any of you ever wonder why Robbie uses French polish in his one on one builds?  Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

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[Portlandplayer]

Scooter

We are about 15 miles from the fires and the wind is blowing away from us, so we are in good shape. The news is saying about 580 houses lost, but I'm sure it's going to be a lot higher. Brand new hotel and a shopping center gone. The good news (if there is any),  is we have a pretty big snow storm due in tomorrow. Unfortunately, one day too late. 

I have been brushing the finish. We are getting close to starting the build on a new house, so I might set up an area to spray. New shop is gonna be really nice. 

Clem

[jwsh...@q.com]

Clem, 15 miles isn't much. Keep your bug out bag handy. I will keep you in my prayers. Scooter

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[Sean Gilbert]

Charles, 

Appreciate the thoughtful response (as well as Scooter's point about adding tonal impacts to the list of factors). For my next few builds, I will be working in a basement workshop with poor ventilation options, so that means that health is almost certainly the number one priority and also a finish that does not require a spray gun application. So I am looking for something wipe-on or brushable. I generally prefer pore-filled look and gloss rather than matte, but it depends a lot on the specific guitar how important those attributes are to my thinking. Protection is a hard one to describe because you obviously want "enough", but what does that mean? My next guitars are unlikely to end up in the hands of people who are doing a lot of travel with them, so I expect that they will live quietly in homes where the biggest risks will come from people bumping them against something by mistake and maybe scratches from zippers on clothing and such. So I can probably go with a finish that offers less protection than Taylor, but I would like something more than Tru-oil. 

I had thought that a water-borne finish would be a good option given the above - possibly EM or crystal-lac - or French Polish (although a bit intimidated by the amount of time required for FP). However, the comments in the thread about water-borne also carrying health risks caught my attention and made me realize that they might not be quite what I expected. 

On my last build, I used a product from Solarez called "I can't believe its not lacquer", which had some real advantages. It does not settle well, so it took quite a bit of work to figure out how to apply it to get a smooth look. However, the finish cures in direct sunlight in a few minutes and seems quite hard. I suspect that it is somewhat brittle as I don't believe that one layer melts into the next. So I think that if it ever breaks, then it will break in ways similar to ice layers. I would consider using it again for a build during warm weather, but it's not convenient for a winter-time build. I also had a lingering insecurity as to whether it fully cured in the deepest pockets of the pores after reading a posting by a retired coatings technician. After a year, it has held up well though, so I am overall pleased with the results. 

Sean

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[Paul McEvoy]

I have a hunch that if you were able to do double blind testing on a variety of different quality finishes that were not too thick (which would be difficult because I don't think you can really do double blind studies on musical instruments as even guitars made from identical woods that are otherwise identical will likely sound different) very few/no one would be able to pick out the finish just from hearing the guitar, and the natural variation of instruments would by far cancel out any acoustic differences in finish. 

This is based on not much other than my own guess but it does really seem unlikely to me.  

I'm equally dubious that anyone could recognize the sound of various fingerboards on electric guitars or body woods purely by tone. 

100% could be wrong on both. 

Osmo seems to be the winner for working in limited ventilation. Somewhere here someone mentioned that it smelled bad, I didn't notice it had any smell at all.  I did play a friend's guitar that was truoil on epoxy (Ken Parker technique I think) and that was off gassing to the point it gave me a headache even after it was finished for a week.  But so far for me Osmo has been great for an easy and attractive if not fancy finish.  

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[Portlandplayer]

 Crystal-Lac has pretty much zero odor. 

[jwsh...@q.com]

French polish requires no special respiratory equipment. You can even lick your fingers if you spill some of the alcohol on them. I would not recommend any more than that because one cup of everclear can kill you! Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

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[David]

For those of you who use EM6000, where do you like to buy it?

Thanks!

-David

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-6 JohnParchem wrote:

When I do use WB I use Target Coating EM6000. It supposedly is repairable, not real sure how long. I liked it because, it leveled real well when sprayed, had a good look without a blue tint, and most importantly the individual coats do combine with each other so there are no sanding witness lines.  Care needs to be taken to keep the coats around 3 mil wet or the product can have a blue tint.

I mostly spray Royal Lac post cat now.

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 10:21:08 AM UTC-8 Robbie O'Brien wrote:

[JohnParchem]

I buy from target coatings https://www.targetcoatings.com/product/emtech-em6000-wb-production-lacquer/

[Ray Cutler]

I’m ready to try a water based finish and I think I’ll try EM6000.  Can I get some recommendations for a pore filler and a sealer that works well with 6000?  Thanks

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[sgonwa]

Chorobo made a very interesting distinction between waterborne and water-based products.

My question is do either of these finishes require an explosion proof fan or other safety measure such as nitro lacquer requires?

Steve

[JohnParchem]

Em6000 is a waterborn finish, no need to have an explosion proof fan.  A respirator should be worn. I have used aquacoat, Gluboost fill and finish , System 3 silver tip and zpoxy with success using EM6000. I always seal with a few wash coats  of shellac after the pore fill.  If pore filling with epoxy wipe down the cured and leveled pore fill with warm water and a touch of soap to avoid amine blush problems. Especially zpoxy! (https://epoxycraft.com/epoxy-basics/amine-blush-what-you-need-to-know/).

[David]

Thanks, all, that is useful info.

-David

[Ray Cutler]

Thanks John.  I have never used CA as a pore filler but I’ll study up on it.  I like Aquacoat, but I’m having trouble with blotching on the end grain (heel).  Are you also sealing before filler?

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[JohnParchem]

I do not seal before doing a pore fill. I would if suggested by the manufacture.

[bkcarnett]

Hi Ray,

I use aquacoat and had some blotchy spots the first time I used it. On subsequent builds I make sure everything is sealed with shellac prior to pore filling and have had no more problems.

Brian 

[Ray Cutler]

Thanks Brian.  I like it in every other respect. I won’t give up on it yet. 

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[Ramon Tristani]

I buy mine directly from their website

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Thank you,
Ramon E. Tristani

[jwsh...@q.com]

John, how do you remove the soap residue? Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: JohnParchem

Date: Wed, Jan 5, 2022 5:52 PM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: water based finish opinions

Em6000 is a waterborn finish, no need to have an explosion proof fan.  A respirator should be worn. I have used aquacoat, Gluboost fill and finish , System 3 silver tip and zpoxy with success using EM6000. I always seal with a few wash coats  of shellac after the pore fill.  If pore filling with epoxy wipe down the cured and leveled pore fill with warm water and a touch of soap to avoid amine blush problems. Especially zpoxy! (https://epoxycraft.com/epoxy-basics/amine-blush-what-you-need-to-know/).

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 4:28:33 PM UTC-8 sgonwa wrote:

Chorobo made a very interesting distinction between waterborne and water-based products.

My question is do either of these finishes require an explosion proof fan or other safety measure such as nitro lacquer requires?

Steve

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 5:53:15 PM UTC-6 Ray Cutler wrote:

I’m ready to try a water based finish and I think I’ll try EM6000.  Can I get some recommendations for a pore filler and a sealer that works well with 6000?  Thanks

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 5:45 PM JohnParchem <johnp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I buy from target coatings https://www.targetcoatings.com/product/emtech-em6000-wb-production-lacquer/

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 2:27:44 PM UTC-8 David wrote:

For those of you who use EM6000, where do you like to buy it?

Thanks!

-David

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 12:32:15 PM UTC-6 JohnParchem wrote:

When I do use WB I use Target Coating EM6000. It supposedly is repairable, not real sure how long. I liked it because, it leveled real well when sprayed, had a good look without a blue tint, and most importantly the individual coats do combine with each other so there are no sanding witness lines.  Care needs to be taken to keep the coats around 3 mil wet or the product can have a blue tint.

I mostly spray Royal Lac post cat now.

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 10:21:08 AM UTC-8 Robbie O'Brien wrote:

What are you using for water based finishes these days that you could recommend?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks,

Robbie

O'Brien Guitars obrienguitars.com Keep track of the changes going on now at O'Brien Guitars by signing up for my newsletter

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[JohnParchem]

I remove the soap residue with a wet rag.

[Sean Gilbert]

John - have you tried brushing on EM6000?

Sean

[JohnParchem]

I have not brushed it on, but have a friend who has. It needs to be applied in very thin coats. I think I remembered him saying that he was getting thin coats and had to apply more than spraying. 

[Ramon Tristani]

I spray EM6000 with an Earlex 5000 HVLP and to me it seems these two ingredients were made for each other. I use a 1.5mm tip. Normally I add an ounce of alcohol to the finish to break the surface tension and make it lay down without any orange peel. It works great! It’s a wonderful finish for sure. 

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[John Peters]

Ramon, if you don't mind could you please tell your paint schedule while using EM6000?  You can just email me if you would like at johnpe...@gmail.com.  I am  going to use it for my next finish with the same sprayer.  This is what I have done with nitro and am wondering how the water based lacquers compare.

- 2 coats Vinyl sealer
- 1 coat lacquer (5% thiner, 5% no blush)
- wood filler brush on & wipe off
- Wait one day
- sand wood filler
- 4 coats lacquer
- wait one day
- 4 coats lacquer
- wait two weeks
- Level sand with 220 grit
- spot fill where needed
- Spray 4-5 coats
- wait three week
- cut and buff

[Ramon Tristani]

Hello John,

It's not very involved. The important thing for me is that coats are never sprayed full strength. I use 3oz cups to measure parts. So I go half part of alcohol to 5 parts finish, stirred not shaken. I seal with shellac, 6 sessions. 

1. Spray a thin coat of the finish and repeat this 3 times and hour apart.

2. If I am applying color, I apply the color over these coats until I have achieved my color goals, a color coat an hour apart. I do this in one day

3. The next day, I spray clear an hour and a half apart until my 5 parts mixture is spent

4. Wait 2 days, level sand to 1500 dry with 3" super assilex discs and a Mirka 3" pneumatic sander set nice and slow. Going through the color would be bad at this stage

5. Wait 2 days to let any shrinkage happen if any

6. I then mix half part alcohol to 4 parts finish and spray until spent every 2.5 hours

7. Let the finish cure for 2.5 weeks

8. Level sand dry starting with 1000 all the way to 3000 with super assilex

9. Let it rest for a day and if all looks good, buff it!

Hope this helps,

Ramon

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[John Peters]

Thanks much Ramon!  I was planning on sealing with spraying shellac as well, good to hear that gets good results too.  I just used it for the first time under polly and really liked it.

[Ramon Tristani]

I don’t actually recommend spraying shellac. I would apply it with a rubber. 

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[Sean Gilbert]

Have you used the EM product without a spray gun? I have thought about trying it, but don’t have space to set up a spray area and would have to do it by hand/brush.

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Thank you,
Ramon E. Tristani

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[Paul McEvoy]

That EM6000 looks good.   For someone who has clueless, what would you need to get together to start spraying?   I've thought about getting a portable marijuana grow tent to use, but it would most likely be in my small shop.  I have 4 large windows.  Would I need a big compressor?

Or would it be easier to do outside?

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Thank you,
Ramon E. Tristani

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[Ramon Tristani]

I went to the dollar store, for 3 tarps, Tlingit them with hooks to make a small booth right in the middle of my cramped shop. The earlex does not overspray much at all. You won’t have a fine mist flying all over your shop. For that reason alone, this simple set up is all you need. 

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[John Peters]

Ramon, why do you not recommend spraying shellac?  do you tend to get uneven coverage?  I used a foam brush to apply on my most recent electric build an it went well, but still got a line or two.  Easy to fix will a little sanding though.  I have use spray shellac on some small pieces with good coverage, not on a large piece like a guitar body though.

Paul, I just sprayed 2K polly on an electric in a detached garage and used this portable spray tent.  It worked very well and breaks down easy.  I like it because you can close the front flap to let it dry to touch.  Tarps, however can serve a dual purpose.  

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HMZQ4M7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[John Peters]

Unfortunately the EM6000 does not come in a spray can version.  Some of the spray cans out now have very good spray patterns and can work very well.  If they did you really would not need a compressor at all if you are only doing a couple of guitars every so often.

I went back and forth about getting a compressor setup and the Earlex and decided that the turbine met all of my needs.  What you have to look at with a compressor is the continuous PSI that they can support and how air you are using at any given time, size is a factor in that, but it is not as easy as saying X gallon compressor is good for you.

[Ramon Tristani]

Shellac builds up too soft when spraying. It is best if you harden it by burnishing. You should never place a hard finish over a soft finish. Bad things happen. Also, it is just too runny. Primarily though, burnishing the shellac on the surface provides a harder seal coat for anything you spray over it. Spraying alone does not achieve this. And when you buff the final finish, and generate heat, well… you can imagine the awesome potential there

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[Paul McEvoy]

Ramon what would a simple setup be as far as a gun and compressor?

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[Ramon Tristani]

I actually use an earlex for this. I do have compressors and spray guns, yet, for me, none work better than this

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/earlex-spray-station-hv5500-hvlp?gclid=CjwKCAjwp7eUBhBeEiwAZbHwkSPwp6sM8DgVmSWtAItMLEpRrnbOVYI4Q15G1cgMcD3iTn6zDR0SPBoCKwYQAvD_BwE

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[Joe Shuter]

With a compressor you have the added cost of a pressure regulator and water trap. Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: John Peters

Date: Wed, May 25, 2022 12:13 PM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: water based finish opinions

Unfortunately the EM6000 does not come in a spray can version.  Some of the spray cans out now have very good spray patterns and can work very well.  If they did you really would not need a compressor at all if you are only doing a couple of guitars every so often.

I went back and forth about getting a compressor setup and the Earlex and decided that the turbine met all of my needs.  What you have to look at with a compressor is the continuous PSI that they can support and how air you are using at any given time, size is a factor in that, but it is not as easy as saying X gallon compressor is good for you.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 2:04:19 PM UTC-4 John Peters wrote:

Ramon, why do you not recommend spraying shellac?  do you tend to get uneven coverage?  I used a foam brush to apply on my most recent electric build an it went well, but still got a line or two.  Easy to fix will a little sanding though.  I have use spray shellac on some small pieces with good coverage, not on a large piece like a guitar body though.

Paul, I just sprayed 2K polly on an electric in a detached garage and used this portable spray tent.  It worked very well and breaks down easy.  I like it because you can close the front flap to let it dry to touch.  Tarps, however can serve a dual purpose.  

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HMZQ4M7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/2396a17a-c982-4ccc-a6d0-f6ffd380ba68n%40googlegroups.com.

[Joe Shuter]

Burnish, burnish, burnish! Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: Ramon Tristani

Date: Wed, May 25, 2022 12:46 PM

To: obrien...@googlegroups.com;

Cc:

Subject:Re: water based finish opinions

Shellac builds up too soft when spraying. It is best if you harden it by burnishing. You should never place a hard finish over a soft finish. Bad things happen. Also, it is just too runny. Primarily though, burnishing the shellac on the surface provides a harder seal coat for anything you spray over it. Spraying alone does not achieve this. And when you buff the final finish, and generate heat, well… you can imagine the awesome potential there

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/ea2aa502-98ba-42ad-b6e9-51924a2d9b37n%40googlegroups.com.

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Thank you,
Ramon E. Tristani

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[Charles Tauber]

A few comments and questions:

1. A luthier I know brushes EM6000 and has been happy with the outcome. 

2. Target Coatings makes a water-based sprayable shellac sealer, USH3000 UltraSeal-WB Shellac. I tried it, but didn't care for the amber hue it gave guitar tops. Otherwise, it worked ok. 

3. Back in the 1970's, there really was only one accepted choice for finishing fine guitars: nitrocellulose lacquer. While there were "padding" versions of it, one really needed to spray it on. Then, one felt compelled to buy spray equipment - or spray cans - to apply the "right" finish. Today, there are many accepted choices for finishes, some of which can be wiped-on, brushed, padded or French polished. One is no longer compelled to use sprayed finishes. 

There is no perfect finish. Each has advantages and disadvantages and one chooses the finish that gives the most advantage and the least disadvantage for one's desired methods and operations and quantity of guitars that one is going to make. For example, if one is making thousands of guitars per year, a UV-cured, robotic-arm sprayed finish might be the best choice. If one is only making a handful of guitars per year, a much simpler finish and application might be more appropriate. 

I've used EM6000 sprayed and liked it. I tried EM7000, a high-build version of it and had zero success with it, even after considerable trouble-shooting. It could simply have been an older can that was no longer viable. They since stopped making the EM7000, though I see they are now selling a newer version of it. 

A question. Several here have stated that burnishing a shellac finish makes it harder. Is there ANY objective evidence to support that? Certainly a burnished shellac finish makes the shellac smoother and higher gloss, but when fully cured does burnishing make it harder? Or is it just dogma?

[Joe Shuter]

Charles, most of the facts postulated by most folks are boiled down to opinion, in my opinion. If you have ten luthiers in a room discussing a certain aspect of building you would have a dozen opinions many opposed to the others.

I don't know if my opinion can be classified as objective evidence but I heavily burnish my French polish finishes at the end of each bodying session and I am totally convinced it makes the finish harder. The same way compacting a roadway with repeated pressure makes the base harder. Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: 'Charles Tauber' via Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum

Date: Thu, May 26, 2022 11:48 AM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: water based finish opinions

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[Paul McEvoy]

That looks interesting Ramon, it would be cool to have everything in one unit.  It seems to get very mixed reviews?

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