Humidity Control in the Guitar Room

[Nick]

What is the best way to maintain a stable humidity in a room? I have a 200 sqft guitar room that I'd like to keep at a consistent humidity level throughout the year. There is currently a mini split to control the temperature. It would be interesting to find a few budget options but also something more "professional." Thanks everyone. -Nick

[Ira Cox]

I would also like to hear suggestions for humidity control. During the dry months of winter, I have used a large container withr ultrasonic misters as have been demonstrated by Robbie. After two winters, I am distressed by the amount of white dust which covers everything throughout the house, even upstairs. There is white dust accumulation inside of drawers and even inside guitar cases. It penetrates everywhere and is a result of mineral deposits from the ultrasonic mist. I have decided that this is not a viable option considering the maintenance of my marriage. Does anyone have other ideas for large spaces?  Servicing humidifiers that require several gallons of water each day bt hand is not an attractive option.

[bkcarnett]

Hi Nick,

I recently split my shop into a machine room and a smaller bench/assembly room which has made it much easier to control temperature, humidity and dust. The room is 11’ x 20’ and humidity is easily controlled with a “Home” dehumidifier and a two gallon “Vornado” humidifier which is a evaporative type. Both easily keep the room at 45% humidity. I also recently added a portable heater/air conditioner that also has a dehumidifier function built in. I haven’t used that function yet because it has been unnecessary with the stand alone unit. Not sure if this would work for your situation. I’m in Southern California and we do get monsoonal humidity in the late summer months and very dry Santa Anna winds in the fall and winter. Hope this helps.

Brian 

[Joe Shuter]

Boise, Idaho must be humidity heaven. I store lumber outside in a storage trailer all year. Nature is the humidity controller. Inside my garage converted shop I store lumber and processed back and sides. No humidity control at all. Never had a problem. I store finished instruments in their cases on top of a bunk bed and in the clothes closet in the bedroom. I have a window air conditioner and an oil furnace. Never had a problem. I am not complaining mind you. As a result I have absolteuly no advice on humidity control.  Scooter

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------ Original message------

From: Ira Cox

Date: Thu, May 26, 2022 6:02 PM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: Humidity Control in the Guitar Room

I would also like to hear suggestions for humidity control. During the dry months of winter, I have used a large container withr ultrasonic misters as have been demonstrated by Robbie. After two winters, I am distressed by the amount of white dust which covers everything throughout the house, even upstairs. There is white dust accumulation inside of drawers and even inside guitar cases. It penetrates everywhere and is a result of mineral deposits from the ultrasonic mist. I have decided that this is not a viable option considering the maintenance of my marriage. Does anyone have other ideas for large spaces?  Servicing humidifiers that require several gallons of water each day bt hand is not an attractive option.

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 5:10:57 PM UTC-5 Nick wrote:

What is the best way to maintain a stable humidity in a room? I have a 200 sqft guitar room that I'd like to keep at a consistent humidity level throughout the year. There is currently a mini split to control the temperature. It would be interesting to find a few budget options but also something more "professional." Thanks everyone. -Nick

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[Nick]

Scooter and Brian, thanks for replies. I'm in Boise as well. I find the humidity swings to be a bit concerning. My humidity gauge has read as low as 16% in the winter. At that point I've left two humidifiers running to bump it back above 25%, but that was about as big of an impact as I could get in my house. Now that I have a "guitar room" that is sealed form the rest of the house I found that just one humidifier was too unpredictable and difficult to manage. I'm a dealer for Larrivee and those guitars are coming from Oxnard, CA and are likely assembled around 50% to 45% humidity. Right now in the spring the guitar room hovers around 40% to 35%, which I think is acceptable. It is those winter months I'm concerned about. 

Brian, I think I need to invest in a more sophisticated humidifier, one with a digital gauge that self regulates. But, I'm more inclined to purchase in a steam producing humidifier rather than the evaporating type. I find the heated ones are just so much easier to keep clean. 

Thanks -Nick

[Sean Gilbert]

I use two dehumidifiers in the summer and two evaporative ordinary humidifiers in the winter. I can’t control with real precision and if I can’t empty the dehumidifiers in the summmer for one day, then humidity jumps 5-10%. I haven’t seen direct consequences, but it is not ideal. 

One suggestion from this forum was to build a cabinet specifically for guitars and focus on controlling that space and not the whole room. I may try that when we next move.

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[Andrew Edwards]

I wonder if using potassium carbonate would be viable for a guitar cabinet?

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[Greg Maxwell]

I'm a pretty experienced humidity guy, having had to learn to monitor and regulate humidity for several unrelated businesses over the last 30 years. I have a full video on this subject in my repair class, available from Robbie. Here are some tips I've learned over the years:

The first and most important step is to control air exchange in the room or area you need to regulate. If your room has leaky windows, doors, walls, etc. or is adjacent to unregulated areas that aren't closed off, you will continually fight being able to keep humidity levels on target. In my own current shop (a 20' x 40' separate building with a finished upstairs area and a large overhead garage door), I found it necessary to close off the large door with insulated panels and plastic. I also made a trap door at the top of the stairs that lead to the finished area upstairs. This door is made of a wood frame and covered in heavy gauge plastic, forming a vapor barrier and eliminating air exchange between the upstairs and downstairs. New wall paneling, sealing the many windows, and adding vinyl siding to the outside of the building all helped. I can now easily control the entire downstairs area using a floor model evaporative humidifier in the winter, and a standard dehumidifier in the summer. Bottom line: If you have a lot of fresh air exchange with adjacent rooms or outside areas, you will have a lot of trouble controlling humidity.

I prefer evaporative humidifiers over other types. I use good softened water and I typically get through an entire winter with one change of filters. I always keep a case of filters (four changes) in stock. When buying a humidifier, match to your square footage and realize that these manufacturer's recommendations are not intended to keep a room or house at 50% RH, which is the target for acoustic guitars. So go overkill and you will be better off. Mine is a "whole house" humidifier rated for up to 2000 square feet. My shop is 800 square feet and in the dead of winter with temps in the twenties and crackling dry air, I go through about 5 gallons of water every 24 hours.

A standard dehumidifier works well in the summer, especially if used with air conditioning. The same comments apply to air exchange... you can't dehumidify if you have a constant exchange with humid air. Always address your air flow issues before blaming the equipment.

It bears repeating: Keeping guitars in the cases does nothing related to proper humidity control unless you are using in-case humidification such as the D'Addario Humidi-paks. So many of my customers seem to think that just keeping a guitar in an untreated case is all that's needed. A guitar case will be the same humidity and temperature as the outside ambient, unless you add humidity to the inside of the case.

Finally, I'd like to debunk the idea that (fill in the blank location) is perfect for guitars and you don't have to worry about humidity. I hear this most often about Colorado for some reason, but no matter where you live, humidity and temperature are universal realities, just like gravity. It matters, and it matters everywhere. Of course some areas have far more fluctuation than others, but seasonal changes take place everywhere. These must be taken into consideration by builders and players. Straying too far outside the safe parameters will have negative consequences. Since Boise was specifically mentioned, I'll include this story. Several years ago I made a guitar for a customer in Boise. This guy ignored my instructions about humidity and temperature control, and the guitar suffered the usual damage: Top cracked, bridge lifted, sharp fret ends, etc.

I hope this helps. Regulating humidity can be a pain, but once you get it worked out, life is so much easier!

[josh]

Couldn't agree more with all of these points. I've been using the ultrasonic humidifier method for a while now and used to experience the white powder thing too, until I added an inline water filter to my filling hose. It's just a standard inexpensive RV drinking water tank filler type that I got on amazon for cheap for a pack of two (I keep a few on hand). This said, I'm curious which evaporative humidifier you might recommend. I've gone through a couple of the 12 disk ones from house of hydro, and from my experience they just don't last all that long.

One other thing I've added over the years is a UV fish tank light to help control mold and mildew and that kind of thing without relying on chemicals. With the inline water hose filters and the UV fish tank light and an opaque water tank, I have super clean, fresh water all the time; Gross water in a standing tank is a thing of the past.

Dehumidifiers on the other hand have been my bane. I'm sure it's not a conspiracy theory that these things are expensive and designed to last 8 to 12 months and be disposed of. I use a 70 pint model and if I get a full summer (in Wisconsin) out of one it's a good year. For this reason, I've always found de-humidification in my shop more challenging than humidification.

Josh

[Mark Garster]

I very much appreciate the conversation around humidity and the range of solutions offered. I live in Minnesota and it is difficult to maintain humidity levels in the winter. Josh mentioned having difficulties finding a dehumidifier that lasted longer than a year. I am using a Frigidaire that is going on it’s 4th year. My son has the same one and it is 6 years old. Mine runs almost nonstop from late Spring to early Autumn. There is a hose connected that runs to a floor drain. I do clean the coil at least once per year, which makes a big difference.

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On May 28, 2022, at 10:52 AM, 'josh' via Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum <obrien...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Sean Gilbert]

Has anyone found effective de-humidification methods that do not use machines? 

I read a lot online suggesting to use salt or other physical desiccants but they had no effect in my basement.

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[Joe Shuter]

Greg, I have no doubt that you have a lot of experience concerning guitars and humidity, but..............you are one person and possess the experiences and knowledge of only one person, not the sum total of all human knowledge. Most of the time I respect your opinions concerning the art of luthiery. The times I have trouble finding respect for your comments is when your opinion is larger than life and superior to all others. Your comment concerning my tongue in cheek comment about Boise must be humidity heaven for building is one of those times. 

I would like to debunk the idea that your opinion/knowledge is omniscient. I am not concerned in the least about humidity issues concerning my instrument builds here in Boise, Idaho. 

I have built 25 instruments in my converted garage shop with absolutely no humidity control other than nature. I have experienced ZERO issues relating to problems caused by humidity being too high or too low. ZERO

I have instruments I built in my uncontrolled humidity shop in different Islands in Hawaii, Athens, Georgia, different locations in California as well as different locations in Idaho. These locations cover the extreme gambit of humidity conditions an instrument might encounter. These instruments have endured years in their respective environments with,  I might add, ZERO issues. 

Contrary to your opinion I do not have to worry about humidity. As far as the guitar you sent to Boise, was it the humidity or the build?  Scooter

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[Sean Gilbert]

Friendly forum guys. Your point that you have different views is made Scooter.

Please consider whether to continue this in public or take it offline. 

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[Stephen Foss]

Folks,

Not attemepting to pour gasoline on the fire of strong opinion, but I have a question.

Scooter, I know you build 'ukes. Greg, you build/repair guitars. Is it possible that the EFFECTS of humidity could be different between the two instruments? One has much smaller surface area exposed than the other. Just me being curious. 

Steve

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[Roger Pierce]

Steve’s point about the difference between ukes and guitars seems  to me to be well taken. Also, I think instruments built in a low humidity environment (like Idaho or here in Northern Nevada) are less likely to have problems when moved to higher humidity, than humid-built instruments  that end up in drier climates. For instance, my brother took the uke I built him to Hawaii for several weeks and had no issues, but I have seen many Hawaiian-built ukes dry and crack here in a hurry if they are not kept humid. Like Scooter, I do little to no humidity control and have had no problems, but several of these factors are in my favor that would not apply if I lived elsewhere or built big guitars (coming soon, I hope). Robbie, Greg,  and the many other pros on this forum have learned the importance of humidity control and I appreciate them sharing their copious knowledge even when I feel I fortunately don’t need to be as concerned about some aspects of lutherie as others who sell high-end guitars to clients with high expectations who live in different environments. Nobody likes damaged instruments, especially when it can be prevented.

Roger

 

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[JohnParchem]

Humidity is real issue. Even building in controlled humidity I worry when one of my guitars goes to the mid-west or anywhere there tends to be near zero degree weather and no in house humidity control. Cold air is not able to hold much water so when heated the Relative humidity drops, sometime to single digits.  " Top cracked, bridge lifted, sharp fret ends ... " is a very good description of damage caused by having a guitar in an extreme low RH environment.   These problems keep the repair people hopping in the winter. The problem with building in a high humidity environment is the same issues can show up  in moderate RH environments.  Conversely building in a very low RH environment  will show up in setup problems when in a higher and even moderate humidity environment. 

I live in the Pacific Northwest, our outdoor RH is pretty moderate year around even very cold days, however when we heat that cold air on the few very cold weeks we have the inside RH plummets.  Sure as scooter says, in some environments "Nature is the humidity controller"  but when you modify what nature gives you (AC or heat) you can affect your shops RH. Where I grew up in the mid west 99% RH was pretty normal.

[Joe Shuter]

Steve, that is a good question? I have wondered about the difference. I think for the most part ukuleles would be more stable simply due to their smaller size althoughI have experienced no humidity issues with the parlor guitars I have built. 

Depending on the situation I have observed ukuleles experience humidity problems. For example ukuleles built in Indonesia, shipped to Hawaii for set up and ultimately shipped to the mainland suffer humidity problems especially if the builder has the mind set that thinner plates and lighter builds produce the most responsive instruments. I experienced that with two Pono ukuleles. On one Pono rosewood/cedar tenor ukukele it literally imploded in my hands while holding it. The end jack split in four places. The top lower bout humped up a bunch and the top sustained a 3" crack along side the fret board on the bass side. Thus ukulele was built in a tropical environment and sent to Boise which is not tropical. This instrument imploded even though it had three humidifiers in the case. I know lots of folks have experienced humidity problems with their instruments. I do not know why I don't have problems with humidity in my uncontrolled shop! Scooter

[Joe Shuter]

Roger, you are correct! It is much less stressful for instruments built in a dry environment to go to a humid enviroment than the other way around. Maybe that is the secret to my success. Scooter

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------ Original message------

From: 'Roger Pierce' via Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum

Date: Sun, May 29, 2022 9:19 AM

To: obrien...@googlegroups.com;

Cc:

Subject:RE: Humidity Control in the Guitar Room

Steve’s point about the difference between ukes and guitars seems  to me to be well taken. Also, I think instruments built in a low humidity environment (like Idaho or here in Northern Nevada) are less likely to have problems when moved to higher humidity, than humid-built instruments  that end up in drier climates. For instance, my brother took the uke I built him to Hawaii for several weeks and had no issues, but I have seen many Hawaiian-built ukes dry and crack here in a hurry if they are not kept humid. Like Scooter, I do little to no humidity control and have had no problems, but several of these factors are in my favor that would not apply if I lived elsewhere or built big guitars (coming soon, I hope). Robbie, Greg,  and the many other pros on this forum have learned the importance of humidity control and I appreciate them sharing their copious knowledge even when I feel I fortunately don’t need to be as concerned about some aspects of lutherie as others who sell high-end guitars to clients with high expectations who live in different environments. Nobody likes damaged instruments, especially when it can be prevented.

Roger

 

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[Paul McEvoy]

When I worked restoring double basses in NY the winter was weird because the basses sounded the best but also broke a lot more often because they were dry.  Sorta makes sense.   They are lighter because of less moisture but also all the joints are stressed.  

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[Mike Imbler]

I've noticed the same thing with my guitars and pianos as far as sounding noticeably better the lower the humidity.   But I keep it above 45 percent regardless to protect the instruments.    I think you are right, the sound board is lighter,  but I've also thought it has less damping (sonic damping, no pun intended!) when dry as well.