Dust Collector For Basement Shop

[Jeremy Brown]

I've been doing a lot of work with power tools and sanders in my garage with just shop vacs and dust extractors for dust collection.  Now I want to move into my basement, and want to make sure I'm not endangering my families health with dust.  

What micron size should I be looking to filter down to?  I see a lot of companies selling 1 micron filters, and then Oneida and a few others going all the way down to .3 microns.  

Any systems in particular you think would be good for a small basement shop?  I'm using a table saw, thickness sander, disc sander, bandsaw, and palm sanders.  

[Sean Gilbert]

I think that Robbie has a video on what he does for filtration in the shop on YouTube and I believe there was also a thread on this question in the last 18 months that might have some helpful information.

Most of what I’ve seen on the market filters to one micron, but that still leaves all of the really fine dust particles floating around and those can be particularly dangerous because they live very deep in the lungs. I’m super paranoid and have been trying to figure out ways to filter down to the 0.1 µm. There is one filter machine on the market that goes that low but most don’t. One acquaintance of mine who works with filtration systems in commercial environments advised me that anything with a HEPA filter that can handle the airflow for the room would actually take out those ultrafine particles. He’s a Professional and should know what he’s talking about. Typical home HEPA filters don’t market themselves as being suited for workshops. I don’t know if that’s just a question of marketing segmentation and their preferences for how to go to market or whether there is some subtlety that my professional friend failed to communicate.

Lastly I did come across an article from one of the woodworking magazines where they tried comparing and reading the different filter machines, and they came to the conclusion that a box fan with furnace filters attached is as effective as many of the other machines. That’s one data point and you’d have to decide whether or not you trust the magazine and their process. For people that don’t have a way to actually hang a machine in their basement, I would think the box fan and the attached filter is at least worth trying since it has to be better than nothing and perhaps is as good as whatever you can hang from the ceiling. I think that it probably feels quite short in terms of its ability to create airflow, so you might need to combine it with a supplemental fan that’s moving air around and helps push some of it towards the box fan.

Sean

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/0fcc5481-49b5-4675-bf10-3affe4e6a261n%40googlegroups.com.

[Charles Stanley]

This is a great thread I’m interested in making sure that my shop is clean

Get Outlook for iOS

---

From: obrien...@googlegroups.com <obrien...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Sean Gilbert <gilber...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 12:17:23 PM
To: obrien...@googlegroups.com <obrien...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Dust Collector For Basement Shop

 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/CAP2uA7Z2taCk_x9zOeQ2Yqjy5Cs4khoa2-KCmgJgvQg%2BepfPMA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Charles Tauber]

There are three approaches to dust collection. The first is to collect dust at its source, such as attaching a dust extractor to a sander or using a down-draft table while sanding or attaching a high-volume dust collector to a planer, jointer or bandsaw. The second is room-level dust extraction from the air. The third is personal protection devices, such as respiratory masks. 

Current particle size for which you should be filtering is reported to be .3 microns.

There are several caveats to be aware of. First, the typical two-bag filtration dust collector is often called a "dust pump". The usual cloth bags do not filter fine enough particles and, instead, collect them through high-volume air flow and then blow them throughout the room. Second, I spent extra to replace my two-bag dust collector with a HEPA collector. I paid about $600 for a 1 HP unit, a premium for the size and type. It leaked like a sieve: any claim to being HEPA was absurd. (The filter, itself, might have been, but the unit, as a whole was not due to its leakage.) My point is be careful with claims of HEPA capabilities, since, clearly at least some claiming such capabilities are not. 

Older machines and hand-held routers and sanders gave little thought to dust collection. In working with such a machine, it is difficult to collect dust at its source and one has to look at the other approaches. How fully more recent machines allow dust to be collected varies from one machine, one brand to another. 

If you can afford it, buy a good dust collector. I plan on replacing my Delta "dust pump" with an Oneida. Be aware, however, that the smaller Oneida units have a stated requirement of 20 amp service. 

Another thing to consider is noise. Most high-volume dust collectors are noisy - above 80 dB - and probably shouldn't be used for longer periods without ear protection. If it is possible to locate the dust collector outside or in another room, that can be advantageous. 

Charles 

[Jeremy Brown]

Thanks for all the advice.  I'm leaning towards the Oneida Mini Gorilla or the Supercell.  Any thoughts on those?  

[Portlandplayer]

Not to muddy the water, but anyone thinking about a new dust collection system should read Bill Pentz's studies. Trust me, getting the facts about this stuff can be very sobering.

https://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.php#index.php

The problem is if we can't see dust, we assume our shop (air) is clean, which can be further from the truth. The real issue is, the dust particles we can't see are the deadly ones. As mentioned, you have to be vary leery of manufactures claims. Keep in mind, those said claims are under ideal conditions (and sometimes suspect). The realty is, the only way to eliminate the killer dust particles to a safe level is to vent them outside or have a significant side draft in our shop which can be hard to achieve with high temps in the summer and freezing in the winter. 

We are in the process of building a new house with my shop in the basement. The one thing I will not have are heat and cooling ducts from the main house furnace, air-conditioning system in my shop. The problem if you use heat and cooling form the main house system, you are forcing those ultra fine particles into the HVAC system, potentially contaminating your main house living areas. I will also have a separate room to house my dust collector, mainly for noise. By placing the collector in a separate room creates additional issues. What I will do is create a vent system from the collection room to the shop in a closed loop system. If we don't have a the air moving from the shop to the collector room, we are right back where we started and are now forcing the dust right back to the main house. As for heat and cooling I plan to use a mini split heat pump to further isolate the shop air from the main living areas. 

The bottom line is, do your due diligence and not necessarily form the manufactures specs, that may be suspect at best. You only have one set of lungs. Wise to protect them. 

[Joe Shuter]

Respiratory masks should be worn while using tools even if you have a million dollar dust collector. Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: 'Charles Tauber' via Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum

Date: Mon, Jul 25, 2022 11:36 AM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: Dust Collector For Basement Shop

There are three approaches to dust collection. The first is to collect dust at its source, such as attaching a dust extractor to a sander or using a down-draft table while sanding or attaching a high-volume dust collector to a planer, jointer or bandsaw. The second is room-level dust extraction from the air. The third is personal protection devices, such as respiratory masks. 

Current particle size for which you should be filtering is reported to be .3 microns.

There are several caveats to be aware of. First, the typical two-bag filtration dust collector is often called a "dust pump". The usual cloth bags do not filter fine enough particles and, instead, collect them through high-volume air flow and then blow them throughout the room. Second, I spent extra to replace my two-bag dust collector with a HEPA collector. I paid about $600 for a 1 HP unit, a premium for the size and type. It leaked like a sieve: any claim to being HEPA was absurd. (The filter, itself, might have been, but the unit, as a whole was not due to its leakage.) My point is be careful with claims of HEPA capabilities, since, clearly at least some claiming such capabilities are not. 

Older machines and hand-held routers and sanders gave little thought to dust collection. In working with such a machine, it is difficult to collect dust at its source and one has to look at the other approaches. How fully more recent machines allow dust to be collected varies from one machine, one brand to another. 

If you can afford it, buy a good dust collector. I plan on replacing my Delta "dust pump" with an Oneida. Be aware, however, that the smaller Oneida units have a stated requirement of 20 amp service. 

Another thing to consider is noise. Most high-volume dust collectors are noisy - above 80 dB - and probably shouldn't be used for longer periods without ear protection. If it is possible to locate the dust collector outside or in another room, that can be advantageous. 

Charles 

On Monday, July 25, 2022 at 11:29:25 AM UTC-4 jbr...@radianta2.com wrote:

I've been doing a lot of work with power tools and sanders in my garage with just shop vacs and dust extractors for dust collection.  Now I want to move into my basement, and want to make sure I'm not endangering my families health with dust.  

What micron size should I be looking to filter down to?  I see a lot of companies selling 1 micron filters, and then Oneida and a few others going all the way down to .3 microns.  

Any systems in particular you think would be good for a small basement shop?  I'm using a table saw, thickness sander, disc sander, bandsaw, and palm sanders.  

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/e7bbd7e0-7c36-4065-84a8-92fa9edddf82n%40googlegroups.com.

[Portlandplayer]

Scooter....well said. 

[Charles Tauber]

Oneida dust collectors are well reviewed. I've not owned one or used one, mostly because I have 110V/15A service in my shop. All of the Oneida collectors require more than that. 

The Mini Gorilla and the Supercell are fairly different. Look at their specifications. 

There are entire books written on the subject of designing and installing dust collection systems. It can be relatively simple or quite complex depending upon your needs. The starting point is to think about what sources of dust you are trying to address and how to best do so. For example, if you are using a thickness sander, a shop vac won't be very effective. Typically, one is looking at 600 cubic feet per minute (CFM) of air flow for that application. Do your tools have built-in dust collection capabilities, such as ports to which you can attach some form of dust collection? 

[Charles Tauber]

I should have been more clear. I usually simultaneously use three types of dust collection: 1) at the source - either a shop vac or a 600 CFM dust collector - 2) a room air filter that performs a complete air filtration in about 6 minutes and 3) some form of respirator - I have several types. 

I did not mean to imply that different types of dust collection were either/or. 

[Gary Neyman]

In my garage shop  I  have two Rigid Shop Vacs that are both plumbed so the exhaust exits outside the house.  I use them on virtually everything I do that makes dust and like Scooter says, I still wear a mask and ear protection.  If I had the  luxury  of more space, I would have three shop vacs plumbed together in an  enclosed space of their own with remote switches on each dust producing unit.  I also have the large JET Air Filtration System unit that is ceiling mounted which I run when I'm using my laminate cutter in the open.  Judging from the amount of dust that collects on the filter, I would say it does a pretty good job.

Gary from PA

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/5e9e4e8f-efb4-4f11-b99d-c918ae9cfdban%40googlegroups.com

.

[Robbie O'Brien]

Lastly I did come across an article from one of the woodworking magazines where they tried comparing and reading the different filter machines, and they came to the conclusion that a box fan with furnace filters attached is as effective as many of the other machines.

Please don't do this! When I wrote an article about the dangers of dust for American Lutherie magazine, I did a lot of research and consulted with Oneida. This will only stir up the dust in your shop and blow the really dangerous stuff around. 

Robbie

O'Brien Guitars obrienguitars.com Keep track of the changes going on now at O'Brien Guitars by signing up for my newsletter

---

From: obrien...@googlegroups.com <obrien...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Sean Gilbert <gilber...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 09:17
To: obrien...@googlegroups.com <obrien...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Dust Collector For Basement Shop

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/CAP2uA7Z2taCk_x9zOeQ2Yqjy5Cs4khoa2-KCmgJgvQg%2BepfPMA%40mail.gmail.com.

[jered.elmore]

Great question and great timing for me. I've been trying to figure this out too but for a garage shop outside and for COVID/health purposes inside the home. HVAC filters have MERV ratings that indicate the micron size and efficiency rate of particle removal. Here's a chart I found for those: https://www.mechreps.com/PDF/Merv_Rating_Chart.pdf. I put MERV 13 filters in my home HVAC because that's supposed to be sufficient for the aerosols that carry virus particles. You have to be careful with your HVAC though because increasing the filter efficiency without increasing the filter surface area reduces the airflow and can overwork/harm your HVAC system if it isn't rated for that. In the shop, it seems a MERV 15 is the minimum you'll want for safety purposes (0.3 micron at 85%). As Charles articulated, if I understood him correctly, I too think a layered approach may be everyone's best bet.

Layers:

1. PPE mask

2. Point-source dust collection

3. Ambient air filtration system

4. Air flow and exterior venting

1. I've been wearing a 3M P99 mask any time I kick up dust and it's made a world of difference since my younger days of hacking, tar snot, and headaches. So soon old, so late smart, as grandma used to say.

2. I recently scored the Rockler DustRight 650 CFM dust collector for about $50 (Craigslist is my friend and can be yours too if you use saved searches and email alerts) and have been researching ways to make it my primary point-source pollution control for the planer, jointer, router, table saw, and eventually drum sander. So far, I've been using a Ridgid shop vac where I can, which I upgraded with HEPA filter and HEPA collection bag, with a Dustopper separator in line. I can't guarantee it's producing true HEPA results but I can tell you it's a helluva lot better than the standard filters with no bag and I'm very pleased with the Dustopper's performance in extending the vac filter and bag life.

3. I have a WEN ceiling-mounted shop air filter (400 CFM, $20 on Craigslist vs $130 retail) because I wasn't sure I needed 1000 CFM of the higher end models ($350 - $500). If I had to do it again, I might get one of those but I have no complaints about the WEN I have and it's sized well enough for my use in a 4,200 cubic foot space as it filters the air about 6 times an hour. I turn the system on before I get to work and leave it running throughout, then I let it keep running on a timer for another hour or so after I finish. I wasn't sure it was doing much until I sanded some Padauk for the first time while prepping stock for Robbie's French Polish class. The outer filter turned a very gratifying deep red hue over its entire surface within a few minutes, even though dust collection from my orbital sander leaves very little dust on the work surface and I don't see dust escaping as I work. Made me feel much better about the WEN's utility/value and makes me think again about a sanding station like Robbie's to pull more dust out of the air *before* it can waft around the shop.

4. I use a small-ish 900 CFM air mover fan (https://www.homedepot.com/p/B-Air-1-4-HP-Air-Mover-Blower-Fan-for-Water-Damage-Restoration-Carpet-Dryer-Floor-Home-and-Plumbing-Use-in-Blue-BA-VP-25-BL/207012958) tucked under a slightly opened garage door to create significant airflow from the vents in the opposite corner of the room and carry as much dust down and out of the garage as possible. I also have the luxury of opening the garage door and blowing the place out with my leaf blower every so often; differences between garage and basement, for sure. I think your basement must have some fire egress which could provide space for venting. Not sure if that meets code though so please be safe if you choose to use it for that.

I'm still figuring out the second layer, point-source dust collection, the one you're primarily asking about. I stumbled across a StumpyNubs video on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjMikFJq66o&list=PLMauhBGV7gbk2f8B4j9NxISnIW7iBWPL0&index=4) where he outfitted a DustRight dust collector with a much larger high efficiency filter. I'm inclined to go that route for cost savings and because it seems to really work. In your case, best to isolate your work environment from the rest of the house first, as Portland suggested, because once those very small particles enter the home, your HVAC system won't effectively clear them (MERV rating of HVAC filter very likely too low). Then, use an air quality meter (something like this, maybe: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dylos-DC1100-Pro-air-quality-monitor/191936850?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=14134) to be sure you're getting the results you paid for, whichever system(s) you choose for your shop.

Good luck, and let us all know what you choose and how it works. I love learning from everybody on here.

[Joe Shuter]

I have spent the last few days milling Koa on my band saw in the shop. I have a ceiling mounted dust collector that runs all of the time I am in the shop. When I run my band saw or belt sander I use a large rigid shop vac. Even though the rigid shop vac does a great job of removing dust at the tool I am sure it does not get rid of all of the really fine dust you can't see. I use a 3m N95 dust mask to keep the really small particles out of my lungs.

After milling the Koa I ran it all through my 24" SuperMax drum sander. I have one 4" dust port on the top of my thickness sander. I have my thickness sander out of the shop under the awning. The large rigid shop vac makes a huge difference on the thickness sander. Still I would not use the thickness sander in the shop.  I spent hours on end at the thickness sander in the last few days and with a rigid shop vac and a N95 dust mask I did not seem to be affected by dust at all. Every thing was covered with dust except my face inside the dust mask. I bought a new case of 3m N 95 masks off of Craigslist for $60.00 last year. Eight boxes of ten masks. I thought that was a steal. 

My dust collection system is really low tech but I don't feel like I am breathing dust. Scooter

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device

------ Original message------

From: 'Charles Tauber' via Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum

Date: Mon, Jul 25, 2022 6:41 PM

To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum;

Cc:

Subject:Re: Dust Collector For Basement Shop

Oneida dust collectors are well reviewed. I've not owned one or used one, mostly because I have 110V/15A service in my shop. All of the Oneida collectors require more than that. 

The Mini Gorilla and the Supercell are fairly different. Look at their specifications. 

There are entire books written on the subject of designing and installing dust collection systems. It can be relatively simple or quite complex depending upon your needs. The starting point is to think about what sources of dust you are trying to address and how to best do so. For example, if you are using a thickness sander, a shop vac won't be very effective. Typically, one is looking at 600 cubic feet per minute (CFM) of air flow for that application. Do your tools have built-in dust collection capabilities, such as ports to which you can attach some form of dust collection? 

On Monday, July 25, 2022 at 4:12:15 PM UTC-4 jbr...@radianta2.com wrote:

Thanks for all the advice.  I'm leaning towards the Oneida Mini Gorilla or the Supercell.  Any thoughts on those?  

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/5e9e4e8f-efb4-4f11-b99d-c918ae9cfdban%40googlegroups.com.

[JohnJ]

Robbie, or someone else, please explain why a box fan with appropriate HEPA or MERV filter(s), stirs up more dust than an air filtration system, when placed or hung in the same place?

Thank  you.

JohnJ.

[Robbie O'Brien]

Most people put a regular AC filter on the box fan and that is what I was referring to. Those filters do not have the fine dust filters necessary to remove the dangerous dust and therefore it continuously is moved about your shop. If you want to take the time to build an enclosure for a box fan and install a HEPA filter on it somehow then that is better but still not ideal. At that point you should just purchase an air filtration device like Powermatic or others make, as they have primary and secondary filters on them and do a better job of removing dangerous dust in my opinion.

Robbie

O'Brien Guitars obrienguitars.com Keep track of the changes going on now at O'Brien Guitars by signing up for my newsletter

---

From: obrien...@googlegroups.com <obrien...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of JohnJ <jejo...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 14:30
To: Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum <obrien...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Dust Collector For Basement Shop

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/0b3af0c4-324f-45ce-a3c9-bbfa22ca446fn%40googlegroups.com.

[Sean Gilbert]

Powermatic seems to be the only shop filter that goes below one micron. Has anyone found others? 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/0b3af0c4-324f-45ce-a3c9-bbfa22ca446fn%40googlegroups.com.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/BL3PR10MB6091CF6BC815F1B28F7E91D8DA949%40BL3PR10MB6091.namprd10.prod.outlook.com.

[Jered Elmore]

Like Robbie said. To get sufficient CFMs and filtration to make it work well, you need a shroud for the fan front to prevent recirculating air from the front corners and either a Corsi-Rosenthal box enclosure (think cube made of filters) or a very deep (e.g. 5”) high MERV filter on the rear to provide sufficient air flow and filtration. Lots of folks sorta hack it with your standard HVAC filters like a 1” MERV 11. They’ll collect dust that way but not the really dangerous stuff which just continues to circulate through the shop.

On Jul 26, 2022, at 2:30 PM, JohnJ <jejo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Robbie, or someone else, please explain why a box fan with appropriate HEPA or MERV filter(s), stirs up more dust than an air filtration system, when placed or hung in the same place?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.

[JohnJ]

Thank you, Robbie. I understand now.

JohnJ.

[Gary Neyman]

Robbie, which issue of American Lutherie has your study?

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/6b7bf8bf-805d-467c-888f-344d24650908n%40googlegroups.com

.

[Robbie O'Brien]

American Lutherie #116

O'Brien Guitars obrienguitars.com Keep track of the changes going on now at O'Brien Guitars by signing up for my newsletter

---

From: 'Gary Neyman' via Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum <obrien...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 17:05

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/1974296992.1465398.1658880310601%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Sean Gilbert]

Jered - are there any photos that you could point out? I'm trying to imagine what you are describing.

Sean

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/D45C0477-44D2-459A-A656-4B6633459F2F%40gmail.com.

[Sean Gilbert]

do you mean like this?

https://cleanaircrew.org/box-fan-filters/

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 7:28 PM Jered Elmore <jered....@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/D45C0477-44D2-459A-A656-4B6633459F2F%40gmail.com.

[Jered Elmore]

Yes, exactly. The image from wiki is pretty good too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsi–Rosenthal_Box

The size of it fully assembled is a little bulky, and then you need to think about placement and the orientation for airflow. That may require some reinforcement if you want to suspend it from the ceiling. It’s so large to accommodate the high CFM of the box fan by increasing the filter surface area with several standard filters in the box configuration. And you need the shroud on the outflow side to prevent air from being sucked in the corners and recirculated from the front which would decrease your static pressure. You can achieve a similar result as the box by using a single deeper filter attached to the rear of the fan as the wider pleats have greater surface area. Just be sure there is approximately 4x the surface area in the filter you choose as that of the standard 1” HVAC filter. Usually that means you need a 5-6” deep filter because they have fewer pleats. That allows for adequate airflow. And again, you need at least a MERV 15 to really clean the air. As Robbie said, it’s not the most convenient solution and, once you put the whole contraption together, it stops being super cheap, though still cheaper than the $500 JET equivalent. But it is still fun and clever if you’re into that. As I mentioned above, be sure to use a *good* air quality monitor. Don’t take it for granted that any of these solutions are working adequately; know for sure.

On Jul 26, 2022, at 8:53 PM, Sean Gilbert <gilber...@gmail.com> wrote:



You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/obrien-forum/7TpfzDyJjvM/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/CAP2uA7b-47NsUK5N7RDrxBMPv1YK2AyPMqsmhbP53xCys3DUDw%40mail.gmail.com.

[jered.elmore]

Sorry to keep reviving this thread. Came across this video I hadn't seen for a while (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH8uqGjAxJo) and thought I should share because it does an effective job of illustrating concepts that are universally applicable for all of our shops. The custom air cleaner unit he uses has a blower motor that moves more air than a typical box fan but is the same conceptual design as the Corsi-Rosenthal box I mentioned earlier. He states he uses MERV 13 filters but please use MERV 15 or higher, if at all possible, should you choose to try it or, as we've already said, just buy a commercial one and save yourself the hassle. I know he has a few build videos you can hunt down on his channel if you like. From what I remember, he did a good job of making the unit with tight tolerances to reduce leakage in the filtration process. He uses an air quality monitor that measures down to the 0.3 micron level to illustrate efficacy of all his clean air measures, uses his PPE, and demonstrates the huge benefit of collecting dust at the source. I linked his Dylos monitor above. The Purple Air air quality monitors may work better for you if you like having a wi-fi enabled device (https://community.purpleair.com/t/which-sensor-to-choose/125). The principle I most want to emphasize is that it's better to measure and know than to make your best efforts and hope. Measuring lets you know when its safe to remove your mask and breathe easy. He compares and finds his home air quality is worse than outdoors, which is worse than his shop air quality so, ventilation is helpful in his home generally but isn't usually necessary/helpful in his shop; his filtration and dust collection are that good.

[Portlandplayer]

Also, notice he has installed the Clear View collector. Not inexpensive, but the best dust collector on the market.....period! That's what is going in my new shop. 

[Sean Gilbert]

i appreciate your adding to this thread!

What about HEPA filters that are not designed specifically for shops? Something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-True-Allergen-Remover-HPA300/dp/B00BWYO53G

I imagine it is more limited in ability to circulate air in a room, but a HEPA filter should still catch sub-1 micron fine dust. Or am I missing something?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/bb69320f-dc09-4115-aa95-a3800ace7a2cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Jered Elmore]

You’re absolutely right about the level of filtration. A few other things to consider:

1. This filter is rated at 320 CFM whereas the lowest peak CFM for the ceiling mounted shop air purifiers is usually 400, and the next level up is ≈1000. Just means it takes longer to clear the air.

2. The shop air purifiers have two-stage filtration; an outer and inner filter. So you change the outer filter (5 micron, ≈ $12 for WEN) more frequently and the inner filter (1 micron, ≈ $17) less frequently. That would probably give you a modest cost savings for consumables though $22/ea for those HEPA filters is not bad given their quality. Just expect to change them a bit more frequently.

3. This is a free standing floor unit whereas the shop models are typically ceiling mounted. When we clear dust, we want to clear air at the height where we breathe first. I’m not sure how well this unit circulates air but it may not clear dust as quickly or effectively at and above the average upright luthier’s air holes. Of course, you could set it on top of something and give it a little elevation. If you’re using an air quality meter all the time, it will tell you when its safe to unmask, which is what you should rely upon in practice.

It’s not a bad option. Definitely use an air quality meter and measure how well this unit works in *your* shop if you’re inclined to use it. You can return it or get a second unit, because they aren’t huge, if you’re not totally satisfied with the performance of a single unit. Plus, you can use these ones inside the home if you find your indoor air quality isn’t ideal or you’re worried about dust infiltration from the shop. As long as no dust is entering through your HVAC ducts, because you’ve isolated them, running one of these in the house near the basement stairs/door may be all you need to protect the house, as opposed to cleaning the shop air. And having multiple identical units means they can all use the same filters.

On Jul 30, 2022, at 7:06 AM, Sean Gilbert <gilber...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/CAP2uA7aKn6LXhR6PpVnojeZRCLxCd1-94W4vB6M_OiG%3DG%2BczFQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Portlandplayer]

Ok, here is the problem. Fine dust that give us harm can stay suspended for hours and maybe even days. Just because the room air filter claims to recirculate the air in our shop X amount of times (pick your number), doesn't mean that the ultra fine dust has even passed through the filter once. What most don't realize is fine dust particles are incredibly hard to capture. The best way to capture them is at the source before they can even become airborne. Most dust collectors do not have the ability to capture those fine particles at the source. 

As an experiment. On a bright sunny day, use your shop vac to try and capture the airborne dust you see in a sunbeam. What you will see is the dust right next to the vacuums hose end will be picked up, but the dust particles just just a few inches away will not even move towards the hose end let alone be captured. 

Just my two cents and your milage may vary. 

[Sean Gilbert]

So if I get you right, these machines are perfectly fine for purposes of creating safe and breathable air in a wood shop. The limitations are relatively weak motors, their height from the floor, and their ability to stimulate airflow.

With enough effort and enough filters, one could probably overcome the challenges of their speed to filtration and being confident that the air was sufficiently circulating around the room to genuinely achieve the cleaning goals. For example I would imagine you could probably use regular Fans to generate airflow and with enough experimentation you could probably find a combination of fans, placement (incl. height), and filters that would turn over the air in the room to achieve a desirable air quality.

Did I get it right?

I’m slowly reading the Bill Pence pages, but it’s a lot of detail to digest and cross reference to itself. Some of it also seems hard to implement in a basement workshop and it’s better geared towards when you have a garage or other structure that you can actually alter and into what you can install some of the equipment that he talked about.

Sean

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/bb69320f-dc09-4115-aa95-a3800ace7a2cn%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/CAP2uA7aKn6LXhR6PpVnojeZRCLxCd1-94W4vB6M_OiG%3DG%2BczFQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/47FEF92B-99A7-47E2-A74B-96C3C454ADAD%40gmail.com.

[Sean Gilbert]

Yes my understanding is that air filters are predicated on being able to actually get the dust particles close enough to the intake with the right nectar of travel such that they actually can get drawn into the filter. So simply running equipment there’s no guarantee, but,If you did have the right air movement, then a typical home HEPA filter should be capable of being in the air in that passes through it to the same level I’m fine particles. But not easy to accomplish.

This importance of considering how to actually move dust particles is quite clear from what Bill Pence writes. He has so much information analysis though that I am having trouble understanding his solution for points source collection. It seems like he says that you need the dust collection hood next to your work piece that has the right diameter tube and the right strength vacuum engine. But I need to re-read a couple parts.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/05af04e2-1517-46b9-a329-290084849bc2n%40googlegroups.com.

[jered.elmore]

Yeah, functionally fine, if not ideally tailored to the specific environment. But please remember the other three layers of protection and don't rely exclusively on ambient filtration systems: PPE, point-source collection, and air flow if/when beneficial. Alone, filtration systems aren't enough to keep you safe. Portland is correct about the efficiency of capturing at the cut versus trying to purify the whole shop's air. You need both, or a lot of time to waste, to make safe working conditions. The more effective you make your point-source collection, the less work remains for your air filtration system, and the sooner you can safely remove your mask after a cut. You won't know if you don't measure. And since we're going through all the trouble and expense to outfit our shops, and the cost of getting it wrong is large and irreversible, it's wise to invest in monitors then use best available info to guide you to a good solution for your shop. Your shop air quality monitor is permanent safety equipment, like a smoke detector inside your home. Once you're able to test, you can try things out and return them for refunds as necessary, moving up the price ladder until they work to your satisfaction. Even once you're satisfied with your setup, you'll want to continue to monitor air quality in case something goes awry, like developing a leak in your dust collector, and so you know when it's safe to remove your mask after using a tool.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/bb69320f-dc09-4115-aa95-a3800ace7a2cn%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/CAP2uA7aKn6LXhR6PpVnojeZRCLxCd1-94W4vB6M_OiG%3DG%2BczFQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/47FEF92B-99A7-47E2-A74B-96C3C454ADAD%40gmail.com.

[Sean Gilbert]

Which monitor have you used? I was liking at Dylos Pro.

I am also curious what you do for point source collection. I mostly use hand tools in my basement. Only power is a dremel and small router in the future. 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/bb69320f-dc09-4115-aa95-a3800ace7a2cn%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/CAP2uA7aKn6LXhR6PpVnojeZRCLxCd1-94W4vB6M_OiG%3DG%2BczFQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/47FEF92B-99A7-47E2-A74B-96C3C454ADAD%40gmail.com.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/db69a430-ea9a-463e-a355-f6dc3a796528n%40googlegroups.com.

[jered.elmore]

I've only used Dylos Pro.

Using a Ridgid 6.5 hp shop vac with HEPA filter/bag for point-source right now. Working on upgrading to DustRight 650 with a large aftermarket filter, like the video I linked above, because the shop vac is definitely insufficient and I end up wearing my mask longer than I prefer. Found a good small shop solution, the Record CamVac system, that has both high static pressure like a shop vac and high flow rate like a dust collector, but they're a little more pricey and harder to get. Record only has a couple "stockists" for them in the United States. It's basically a doubled-up shop vac with excellent filtration. I lean toward these smaller solutions because, I only use one power tool at a time and mine are all mobile to accommodate lesser uses of garage space (vehicles) so, I don't need/want permanent pipes. Others have different needs and constraints, I'm sure. If the DustRight doesn't work out for me, the CamVac is next on my list.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/bb69320f-dc09-4115-aa95-a3800ace7a2cn%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/CAP2uA7aKn6LXhR6PpVnojeZRCLxCd1-94W4vB6M_OiG%3DG%2BczFQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/47FEF92B-99A7-47E2-A74B-96C3C454ADAD%40gmail.com.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Robert O'Brien Guitar Building Forum" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to obrien-forum...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/obrien-forum/db69a430-ea9a-463e-a355-f6dc3a796528n%40googlegroups.com.