A way to filter out cross-posting kooks in newsgroups?
robertmiles
almost always crosspost to four additional newsgroups. Does
Thunderbird offer any way to filter out all such posts, and also all
replies to them (especially those that don't reduce the
crossposting)? In those newsgroups, there are so few worthwhile posts
with that level of crossposting that I don't mind losing those.
John McWilliams
Not directly. I just hit 'k' to kill the whole thread, then forevermore
it and all subsequent replies are not seen. You can set a filter on
sender or subject, but kooks make it their biz. to get around such, so
for me it's worthwhile only in rare cases.
--
John McWilliams
Mike Easter
For that kind of newsgroup filtering, you need a better filter than
Tbird provides without help.
You are Vista. For Win users, a very popular proxy-type filter which
allows you to use your preferred newsreader is Nfilter/NewsProxy.
It is very old, since W95. There is a lengthy 58 message discussion
about using it in Vista started by a Tbird user in the newsgroup
news.software.readers, which discussion also addresses some minor issues
(which might be considered major if you haven't read the thread) about
the archived structure of the free app.
The advantage of Nfilter is that it can do regex and wildcards, neither
of which Tbird can do.
Here is the old home page^1 and here is the nsr discussion^2 which has
additional links for the alternate download, which I haven't checked out
lately because I mostly don't auto-filter, preferring to handle unwanted
posts by mentally ignoring them.
^1 http://www.nfilter.org/ Nfilter is a supplemental filtering program
to your existing newsreader. It is designed to run transparently
alongside any client for Windows such as Outlook Express, Agent,
Netscape, etc.
^2 Previewable goo.gl GG linkhttp://goo.gl/k7Dia+
http://groups.google.com/group/news.software.readers/browse_thread/thread/4af6e93cd30f113/23b49bbf9d041f33
Newsgroups: news.software.readers
Subject: nfilter for Vista?
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 10:40:07 -0700
--
Mike Easter
Mike Easter
> robertmiles wrote:
>> In some of the newsgroups I follow, I've found a number of kooks that
>> almost always crosspost to four additional newsgroups. Does
>> Thunderbird offer any way to filter out all such posts, and also all
>> replies to them (especially those that don't reduce the
>> crossposting)?
> Tbird user in the newsgroup news.software.readers,
Naturally the majority of the denizens of n.s.r are big fans of powerful
filters with scoring and regex and wildcards - so they don't think much
of the newsreaders which don't have such powers, like Tbird.
A strong filtering agent can focus on any header, but it is particularly
advantageous to be able to filter on a header line which is acquired in
the overview, such as Xref.
The Nfilter faq recommends using the Xref line^1
^1 http://www.nfilter.org/faq.html#3.6 3.6 Can I filter out excessive
cross-posts?
I also dislike crossposting 'generally' and routinely snip out any
crossposted groups except for the one where I read the message. This has
adverse effects which is one of the problems with a clash of
philosophies like top/bottom posting, html/plaintext, and trimmed/untrimmed.
--
Mike Easter
Ron Hunter
Someone worked out a filter based on looking at the newsgroups header
and searching for commas.
Greywolf
In Tools > Message Filters > Filters For... > [your.news.server] >
Select this server.
Selecting the server will apply all filters created for it to all news
groups you get from that server.
HTH
Wolf K.
goodwin
>
> In Tools > Message Filters > Filters For... > [your.news.server] >
> Select this server.
>
> Selecting the server will apply all filters created for it to all news
> groups you get from that server.
>
> HTH
> Wolf K.
No, that neither helps nor applies to the issue of the poster.
Bob Henson
> robertmiles wrote:
>> In some of the newsgroups I follow, I've found a number of kooks that
>> almost always crosspost to four additional newsgroups. Does
>> Thunderbird offer any way to filter out all such posts, and also all
>> replies to them (especially those that don't reduce the
>> crossposting)? In those newsgroups, there are so few worthwhile posts
>> with that level of crossposting that I don't mind losing those.
>
> For that kind of newsgroup filtering, you need a better filter than
> Tbird provides without help.
>
It's actually very simple in Thunderbird - someone in here tipped me off
to this one. In Message filters, if you haven't got a "Newsgroups"
filter, make one with "Custom". Then all you have to do create a filter
is put in a line "Newsgroups" contains "," (minus the quotes, of course)
and do as you will with the message. The Newsgroups header only contains
a comma if there is cross-posting. I have it set to "delete" and "ignore
subthread" and most of the junk mail disappears.
If you want to be rid of the rest of the bozos (but risk losing a few
nice folks) just filter the Message-ID header for "googlegroups". The
combination of filtering out cross-posting *and* google groups removes
nearly all the morons. A Bozo filter will handle the rest.
If you mixed vodka & orange with Milk Of Magnesia, would you get a
Philip's Screwdriver?
robertmiles
Fine for threads started by kooks, but not for those where a kook
replies to a more reasonable thread, often expanding the cross-posting
in the process.
robertmiles
> robertmiles wrote:
> > In some of the newsgroups I follow, I've found a number of kooks that
> > almost always crosspost to four additional newsgroups. Does
> > Thunderbird offer any way to filter out all such posts, and also all
> > replies to them (especially those that don't reduce the
> > crossposting)? In those newsgroups, there are so few worthwhile posts
> > with that level of crossposting that I don't mind losing those.
>
> For that kind of newsgroup filtering, you need a better filter than
> Tbird provides without help.
>
> You are Vista. For Win users, a very popular proxy-type filter which
> allows you to use your preferred newsreader is Nfilter/NewsProxy.
>
> It is very old, since W95. There is a lengthy 58 message discussion
> about using it in Vista started by a Tbird user in the newsgroup
> news.software.readers, which discussion also addresses some minor issues
> (which might be considered major if you haven't read the thread) about
> the archived structure of the free app.
>
> The advantage of Nfilter is that it can do regex and wildcards, neither
> of which Tbird can do.
>
> Here is the old home page^1 and here is the nsr discussion^2 which has
> additional links for the alternate download, which I haven't checked out
> lately because I mostly don't auto-filter, preferring to handle unwanted
> posts by mentally ignoring them.
>
> to your existing newsreader. It is designed to run transparently
> alongside any client for Windows such as Outlook Express, Agent,
> Netscape, etc.
>
>
> Newsgroups: news.software.readers
> Subject: nfilter for Vista?
> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 10:40:07 -0700
>
> --
> Mike Easter
I looked at that one some time ago, then dropped plans to use it when
I found the it could filter only on a few of the header lines, just
those
which are available before the entire message is downloaded.
I've found what looks like a better Windows filter program, Hamster;
it can filter on more items.
http://elfden.co.uk/hamster/index.html
I was looking for a way to do the filtering within Thunderbird, though.
robertmiles
How do I get the filtering section of Thunderbird to pay any attention
to
the newsgroups header line?
Greywolf
> On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, Mike Easter<Mi...@ster.invalid> wrote:
>> robertmiles wrote:
>> ^2 Previewable goo.gl GG linkhttp://goo.gl/k7Dia+http://groups.google.com/group/news.software.readers/browse_thread/th...
>>
>> Newsgroups: news.software.readers
>> Subject: nfilter for Vista?
>> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 10:40:07 -0700
>>
>> --
>> Mike Easter
>
> I looked at that one some time ago, then dropped plans to use it when
> I found the it could filter only on a few of the header lines, just
> those
> which are available before the entire message is downloaded.
>
> I've found what looks like a better Windows filter program, Hamster;
> it can filter on more items.
>
> http://elfden.co.uk/hamster/index.html
>
> I was looking for a way to do the filtering within Thunderbird, though.
I'm missing something here, because I don't understand your problem.
Clarification, please?
I filter on the news server, not the news group. All messages from all
groups you subscribe to from that server will be filtered. The only time
I filter a newsgroup these days is when some nymshifting attack troll(s)
try trashing a group. Then I use Create Filter From....
Tools > Message Filters > Filters for [dropdown list] > NewsServerName >
Choose this news server > create filter
HTH
Wolf K.
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter
> I looked at that one some time ago, then dropped plans to use it when
> I found the it could filter only on a few of the header lines, just
> those which are available before the entire message is downloaded.
>
> I've found what looks like a better Windows filter program, Hamster;
> it can filter on more items.
>
> http://elfden.co.uk/hamster/index.html
>
> I was looking for a way to do the filtering within Thunderbird, though.
I think it is important for you to realize the 'process' that goes on
between news agent and server.
The first thing the agent gets from the server is the 'overview' of the
messages which it doesn't have (yet). At that point (of acquiring the
overview from the server), the agent does not have all of the message
headers and it has none of the body.
The most efficient way to filter anything is when the filter tool can
filter on the content or targets in the overview.
Nfilter can actually filter on 'anything' but it can't filter on
anything that it doesn't have/see yet.
The news agent can 'filter' on things it 'has' by hiding them from you.
So when nfilter filters on something which is not in the overview, the
news agent is going to get the headers for all of the messages which
aren't filtered, which includes the message you don't want. Nfilter's
faq discusses the situation with filtering on items which are not in the
overview.
Hamster works like your own personal news server which provides another
level of power. Also 'complexity' from the perspective of whatall you
are doing with your news server, Hamster, and your news agent.
Over the years of developing my skills and discipline with mental
filtering, I have found it far superior to any kinds of tools including
Nfilter, except for certain types of 'overwhelming' contamination like
hipcrime.
--
Mike Easter
robertmiles
Which FAQ? The one I found discussed only filtering on items included
in the overview, and offered no way to do a second level of filtering
based
on downloading more of the message.
>
> Hamster works like your own personal news server which provides another
> level of power. Also 'complexity' from the perspective of whatall you
> are doing with your news server, Hamster, and your news agent.
>
> Over the years of developing my skills and discipline with mental
> filtering, I have found it far superior to any kinds of tools including
> Nfilter, except for certain types of 'overwhelming' contamination like
> hipcrime.
>
> --
> Mike Easter
After my Windows Mail and Windows Live Mail index files reached
the maximum sizes those programs could handle without installing
more memory than my motherboard allows (8 GB), I decided that I
need to filter out more of the incoming messages, so there's no need
to put them in the index files even if I wait months to read part of
what
comes in that day. I also want it to be easier to find newsgroups
posts where the reader gives no indication that they are spam, so
that I can report them and hopefully reduce the spam load for others
in those newsgroups.
I developed my mental filtering skills too, but they still aren't fast
enough to handle all the newsgroups I'm interested in (about 150
of them) and still let me keep up with the incoming messages.
robertmiles
> On 01/07/2011 2:34 PM, robertmiles wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 27, 4:41 pm, Mike Easter<Mi...@ster.invalid> wrote:
> >> robertmiles wrote:
> [...]
>
> >> Newsgroups: news.software.readers
> >> Subject: nfilter for Vista?
> >> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 10:40:07 -0700
>
> >> --
> >> Mike Easter
>
> > I looked at that one some time ago, then dropped plans to use it when
> > I found the it could filter only on a few of the header lines, just
> > those
> > which are available before the entire message is downloaded.
>
> > I've found what looks like a better Windows filter program, Hamster;
> > it can filter on more items.
>
> >http://elfden.co.uk/hamster/index.html
>
> > I was looking for a way to do the filtering within Thunderbird, though.
>
> I'm missing something here, because I don't understand your problem.
> Clarification, please?
>
> I filter on the news server, not the news group. All messages from all
> groups you subscribe to from that server will be filtered. The only time
> I filter a newsgroup these days is when some nymshifting attack troll(s)
> try trashing a group. Then I use Create Filter From....
>
> Tools > Message Filters > Filters for [dropdown list] > NewsServerName >
> Choose this news server > create filter
>
> HTH
>
> - Show quoted text -
Two newsgroups with a nymshifting troll, but one apparantly more
interested in spreading his oddball ideas than trashing newsgroups
(although he's essentially done that anyway to the first one for the
last few years):
sci.med.cardiology
alt.support.diabetes
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter
>>> Mike Easter
>>> I looked at that one some time ago, then dropped plans to use it when
>>> I found the it could filter only on a few of the header lines, just
>>> those which are available before the entire message is downloaded.
>> Nfilter can actually filter on 'anything' but it can't filter on
>> anything that it doesn't have/see yet.
>> Nfilter's faq discusses the situation with filtering on items which
>> are not in the overview.
>
> Which FAQ? The one I found discussed only filtering on items included
> in the overview, and offered no way to do a second level of filtering
> based on downloading more of the message.
http://www.nfilter.org/faq.html Nfilter is capable of filtering on any
fields that appear in the header of a news article, not just fields in
the overview ... 2.3 What are the filter actions? - You can elect to
drop an article, to flag an article's subject, to flag an article's
author or to change a score for an article.
So/But, you can't drop an article which header doesn't appear in the
overview; but if you were dropping crossposted items with commas in the
XRef (instead of the newsgroups line), the XRef /does/ appear in the
overview, which newsgroups does not. (typically)
> After my Windows Mail and Windows Live Mail index files reached the
> maximum sizes those programs could handle without installing more
> memory than my motherboard allows (8 GB), I decided that I need to
> filter out more of the incoming messages, so there's no need to put
> them in the index files even if I wait months to read part of what
> comes in that day.
I'm not clear on how you are using your mailnews agent. I have a lot of
experience with OE which has very very 'fragile' database, and I would
never let its .dbx folder/files get large in either size or number of
items. I would organize things with frequent maintenance into
appropriate folders.
> I also want it to be easier to find newsgroups posts where the reader
> gives no indication that they are spam, so that I can report them and
> hopefully reduce the spam load for others in those newsgroups.
If you are going to be storing large numbers of news messages for 'a lot
of groups' Hamster is going to be a better idea than Tbird, WM or WLM. I
think Tbird is a 'sturdier' database than WM or WLM - considering the
heritage of the MS products as weak to the core - but I still don't
think I would put very heavy database demands on any app which wasn't
designed to be strong in that field. Even some dedicated databases are
not so strong.
> I developed my mental filtering skills too, but they still aren't fast
> enough to handle all the newsgroups I'm interested in (about 150
> of them) and still let me keep up with the incoming messages.
I don't have personal experience with Hamster, but I have a feeling that
is the route you should go.
--
Mike Easter
robertmiles
> robertmiles wrote:
> > Mike Easter
> >> robertmiles wrote:
> >>> Mike Easter
> >>> I looked at that one some time ago, then dropped plans to use it when
> >>> I found the it could filter only on a few of the header lines, just
> >>> those which are available before the entire message is downloaded.
> >> Nfilter can actually filter on 'anything' but it can't filter on
> >> anything that it doesn't have/see yet.
> >> Nfilter's faq discusses the situation with filtering on items which
> >> are not in the overview.
>
> > Which FAQ? The one I found discussed only filtering on items included
> > in the overview, and offered no way to do a second level of filtering
> > based on downloading more of the message.
>
> fields that appear in the header of a news article, not just fields in
> the overview ... 2.3 What are the filter actions? - You can elect to
> drop an article, to flag an article's subject, to flag an article's
> author or to change a score for an article.
>
> So/But, you can't drop an article which header doesn't appear in the
> overview; but if you were dropping crossposted items with commas in the
> XRef (instead of the newsgroups line), the XRef /does/ appear in the
> overview, which newsgroups does not. (typically)
>
> > After my Windows Mail and Windows Live Mail index files reached the
> > maximum sizes those programs could handle without installing more
> > memory than my motherboard allows (8 GB), I decided that I need to
> > filter out more of the incoming messages, so there's no need to put
> > them in the index files even if I wait months to read part of what
> > comes in that day.
>
> I'm not clear on how you are using your mailnews agent. I have a lot of
> experience with OE which has very very 'fragile' database, and I would
> never let its .dbx folder/files get large in either size or number of
> items. I would organize things with frequent maintenance into
> appropriate folders.
I've already organized them into appropriate folders. Doesn't help
enough in either WM or WLM - it still maintains one main index file
listing all the messages you have downloaded and not deleted.
>
> > I also want it to be easier to find newsgroups posts where the reader
> > gives no indication that they are spam, so that I can report them and
> > hopefully reduce the spam load for others in those newsgroups.
>
> If you are going to be storing large numbers of news messages for 'a lot
> of groups' Hamster is going to be a better idea than Tbird, WM or WLM. I
> think Tbird is a 'sturdier' database than WM or WLM - considering the
> heritage of the MS products as weak to the core - but I still don't
> think I would put very heavy database demands on any app which wasn't
> designed to be strong in that field. Even some dedicated databases are
> not so strong.
>
> > I developed my mental filtering skills too, but they still aren't fast
> > enough to handle all the newsgroups I'm interested in (about 150
> > of them) and still let me keep up with the incoming messages.
>
> I don't have personal experience with Hamster, but I have a feeling that
> is the route you should go.
I already have Hamster installed, but haven't found time to actually
make
it do anything yet.
>
> --
> Mike Easter
Robert Miles
robertmiles
of a particular message? Your description of the format of the
Newsgroups header for crossposted messages does not agree with
what WLM shows me for posts downloaded there.
I prefer to delete only messages crossposted to at least 5
newsgroups, rather than all of those that are crossposted at all.
Some of the heavily infested newsgroups I read have enough
rather similar newsgroups that some crossposting, but not to 5
newsgroups, is frequent for some of the messages worth reading.
robertmiles
> robertmiles wrote:
> > Mike Easter
> >> robertmiles wrote:
> >>> Mike Easter
> If you are going to be storing large numbers of news messages for 'a lot
> of groups' Hamster is going to be a better idea than Tbird, WM or WLM. I
> think Tbird is a 'sturdier' database than WM or WLM - considering the
> heritage of the MS products as weak to the core - but I still don't
> think I would put very heavy database demands on any app which wasn't
> designed to be strong in that field. Even some dedicated databases are
> not so strong.
>
> > I developed my mental filtering skills too, but they still aren't fast
> > enough to handle all the newsgroups I'm interested in (about 150
> > of them) and still let me keep up with the incoming messages.
>
> I don't have personal experience with Hamster, but I have a feeling that
> is the route you should go.
>
> --
> Mike Easter
Sounds reasonable if Hamster provides a reasonable way to search
enough of its database for all posts containing a particular character
string, such as a web page or a web site. It may a while before I
find
enough time to learn Hamster enough to try it, though.
Greywolf
[...]
> Is there a way to make Thunderbird display the full set of headers
> of a particular message? Your description of the format of the
> Newsgroups header for crossposted messages does not agree with
> what WLM shows me for posts downloaded there.
In menu bar: View > Headers > All (and other choices)
And it really is All. But it's possible to hide or alias info at the
originating server end, in which case you won't see all the info might need.
HTH
Wolf K.
robertmiles
> Mike Easter wrote:
> > robertmiles wrote:
> >> In some of the newsgroups I follow, I've found a number of kooks that
> >> almost always crosspost to four additional newsgroups. Does
> >> Thunderbird offer any way to filter out all such posts, and also all
> >> replies to them (especially those that don't reduce the
> >> crossposting)?
> > Tbird user in the newsgroup news.software.readers,
>
> Naturally the majority of the denizens of n.s.r are big fans of powerful
> filters with scoring and regex and wildcards - so they don't think much
> of the newsreaders which don't have such powers, like Tbird.
>
> A strong filtering agent can focus on any header, but it is particularly
> advantageous to be able to filter on a header line which is acquired in
> the overview, such as Xref.
>
> The Nfilter faq recommends using the Xref line^1
>
> cross-posts?
>
> I also dislike crossposting 'generally' and routinely snip out any
> crossposted groups except for the one where I read the message. This has
> adverse effects which is one of the problems with a clash of
> philosophies like top/bottom posting, html/plaintext, and trimmed/untrimmed.
>
> --
> Mike Easter
I've finally been able to see Thunderbird's view of the header and
found the
following:
1. Most of the posts I haven't already filtered out by other means
simply
don't have the Xref header, even if they are crossposted to 5
newsgroups.
Not clear if this is because the newsgroups server doesn't provide
such a
header, or because Thunderbird simply doesn't list it.
2. When I set up a Newsgroups customized header to be searched for
*,*,*,*,* nothing is found even if there are several messages
crossposted
to 5 or more newsgroups.
Robert Miles
Mike Easter
> Mike Easter
>> The Nfilter faq recommends using the Xref line^1
> I've finally been able to see Thunderbird's view of the header and
> found the following:
>
> 1. Most of the posts I haven't already filtered out by other means
> simply don't have the Xref header, even if they are crossposted to 5
> newsgroups. Not clear if this is because the newsgroups server
> doesn't provide such a header, or because Thunderbird simply doesn't
> list it.
The XRef line information is 'essential' for the transactions between
news agent and news server. You can see it on any of the messages here
by using ctrl-U and it is at the bottom.
> 2. When I set up a Newsgroups customized header to be searched for
> *,*,*,*,* nothing is found even if there are several messages
> crossposted to 5 or more newsgroups.
Tbird cannot do anything with wildcards.
That was my point when we started this discussion.
You can also determine with the overview.fmt if a particular news server
puts the XRef in the overview, which every news server will.
If I use a telnet session, it would look like this for the moz server
telnet news.mozilla.org 119
Trying 216.196.97.169...
Connected to news.mozilla.giganews.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
200 news.mozilla.org
list overview.fmt
215 overview format
Subject:
From:
Date:
Message-ID:
References:
Bytes:
Lines:
Xref:full
Notice the XRef in the overview but no 'newsgroups' line.
For that reason, if you were using Nfilter, which can use wildcards and
regex, it could drop based on multiple newsgroups in the line. Each
newsgroup is going to have a colon followed by a number, so nfilter
would filter on the 'colons' instead of the commas in a newsgroups line.
Here is an XRef from a message crossposted to moz.general and moz.tbird
Xref: number.nntp.dca.giganews.com mozilla.general:32221
mozilla.support.thunderbird:116711
(that is on one line)
--
Mike Easter