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[Antares 531]

I had a very hefty, gluttonous breakfast at 6:30 AM this morning,
consisting of two eggs over medium, two large, greasy sausage patties,
two white flour biscuits w/white flour gravy, about one cup of cottage
cheese on lettuce, & lots of black coffee.

My 1.5 hour postprandial BG reading was 140 mg/dL, at 8:00 AM this
morning. This is at the top of the acceptable range posted by the
American Diabetes Association.

My bedtime BG reading last night @ 9:33 PM was 117 mg/dL. This was
taken about 4 hours after supper at 5:30 PM, and I had eaten nothing
after supper. In fact I ate no between meal snacks at all, yesterday
and the day before. I drank nothing but water between meals, after my
breakfast coffee was finished.

My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.

I simply do not understand how/why my morning fasting BG reading can
be so high then not go MUCH higher after eating a breakfast like this.
Any ideas or insights would be greatly appreciated.

Gordon

[basilisk]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:31:25 -0500, Susan wrote:

> x-no-archive: yes

>
> On 2/29/2012 9:19 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>
>> My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
>> this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.
>>
>> I simply do not understand how/why my morning fasting BG reading can
>> be so high then not go MUCH higher after eating a breakfast like this.
>> Any ideas or insights would be greatly appreciated.
>

> Two things: your fbg has improved vastly, if your reports are accurate.
>
> And I am mystified that someone who sweats the possible impact of
> sweeteners would eat those biscuits, particularly when the rest of the
> meal was about a day's worth of food for a lot of folks.
>
> Susan

trolls need vast quantities of food.

basilisk

[Antares 531]

I eat things like those biscuits & gravy for breakfast from time to
time because I really like 'em, and also because I want to study the
effects of various food intakes. Can't do much but guess unless one
tries things on for size, can you?

The thing that still puzzles and amazes me is that things like this
VERY HIGH CARB breakfast won't do much in the way of raising my BG
level, but even a modest carb meal later in the day will sent me sky
high. Why? If I eat even a normal sized piece of toast with natural
cow butter and no jelly or other such gooey stuff with my lunch meal
it will spike my BG reading very noticeably.

I'm guessing that my Norwegian genotype has provided me with those
specific genes that promote a strong "Dawn Effect" and this lets me
eat a whomping big carb-rich breakfast with no serious spike in my BG
reading.

Now, if I could just learn what hormones/enzymes, etc., my Dawn Effect
releases, maybe I could take some medications that would do the same
thing with no serious side effects or risks at all.

Gordon

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:31:25 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>On 2/29/2012 9:19 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>

>> My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
>> this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.
>>
>> I simply do not understand how/why my morning fasting BG reading can
>> be so high then not go MUCH higher after eating a breakfast like this.
>> Any ideas or insights would be greatly appreciated.
>

[ray]

A few comments:

108 and 140 are significantly different.

I haven't had a breakfast like that since I was diagnosed. My normal
breakfast (6 days a week) is two eggs, two slices bacon, 1/2 small
grapefruit (in season - no sugar), 1/2 double fiber English muffin.

In his book, 'Diabetes Solution', Dr. Richard Bernstein (who has been a
type 1 for over 60 years) advocates a diet with 30 grams of carbs daily
for his type two patients. I normally run between about 30 and 50. I
think you'll find that you significantly exceed that total with breakfast.

The combination of oral meds, exercise and a low carb diet keeps me in
good numbers - FBG this morning was 88.

[Antares 531]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:31:25 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>On 2/29/2012 9:19 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>

>> My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
>> this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.
>>

I made a typo here. My FBG this morning was 109, not 108 mg/dL.

I just did a mid-morning BG test and it was 110 mg/dL, down from the
earlier reading of 140 that I took 1.5 hours after starting my
breakfast.

Do you suppose the ALA is beginning to kick in, or is this all because
I've quit eating any snacks between meals? I guess I should continue
with the no-snack regimen for a few days and see if the good results
continue, then do a back-slide and eat some snacks for a day or two to
see if this disrupts the sequence of nice, healthy BG readings.

Gordon

>
>> I simply do not understand how/why my morning fasting BG reading can
>> be so high then not go MUCH higher after eating a breakfast like this.
>> Any ideas or insights would be greatly appreciated.
>

[Antares 531]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:31:25 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>On 2/29/2012 9:19 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>

>> My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
>> this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.
>>
>> I simply do not understand how/why my morning fasting BG reading can
>> be so high then not go MUCH higher after eating a breakfast like this.
>> Any ideas or insights would be greatly appreciated.
>

>Two things: your fbg has improved vastly, if your reports are accurate.
>

I would like to se my morning FBG readings to settle down and
stabilize in the 90 ą10 mg/dL range. This would be the best I could
hope for.

>
>And I am mystified that someone who sweats the possible impact of
>sweeteners would eat those biscuits, particularly when the rest of the
>meal was about a day's worth of food for a lot of folks.
>
>Susan
>

My motive is to gain a deeper understanding and hopefully follow up
with better control of my BG situation before it gets so far out of
control that I can never hope to get it back where it belongs.

Passive inactivity in the learning/seeking insights process is much
more of a risk than making a deliberate step over the line from time
to time in order to observe and document the results.

And, if I share my information with others, here, maybe this will help
them manage similar BG problems.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

On 29 Feb 2012 15:26:19 GMT, ray <r...@zianet.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:19:48 -0600, Antares 531 wrote:
>
>> I had a very hefty, gluttonous breakfast at 6:30 AM this morning,
>> consisting of two eggs over medium, two large, greasy sausage patties,
>> two white flour biscuits w/white flour gravy, about one cup of cottage
>> cheese on lettuce, & lots of black coffee.
>>
>> My 1.5 hour postprandial BG reading was 140 mg/dL, at 8:00 AM this
>> morning. This is at the top of the acceptable range posted by the
>> American Diabetes Association.
>>
>> My bedtime BG reading last night @ 9:33 PM was 117 mg/dL. This was taken
>> about 4 hours after supper at 5:30 PM, and I had eaten nothing after
>> supper. In fact I ate no between meal snacks at all, yesterday and the
>> day before. I drank nothing but water between meals, after my breakfast
>> coffee was finished.
>>
>> My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
>> this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.
>>
>> I simply do not understand how/why my morning fasting BG reading can be
>> so high then not go MUCH higher after eating a breakfast like this. Any
>> ideas or insights would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Gordon
>
>A few comments:
>
>108 and 140 are significantly different.
>

Right! The 108, (correction for my typo, 109) reading was taken just
as soon as I had gotten out of bed and walked into the bathroom, where
my BG testing things are kept.

The 140 mg/dL reading was taken an hour and a half after I had started
eating my bodacious breakfast.

>
>I haven't had a breakfast like that since I was diagnosed. My normal
>breakfast (6 days a week) is two eggs, two slices bacon, 1/2 small
>grapefruit (in season - no sugar), 1/2 double fiber English muffin.
>
>In his book, 'Diabetes Solution', Dr. Richard Bernstein (who has been a
>type 1 for over 60 years) advocates a diet with 30 grams of carbs daily
>for his type two patients. I normally run between about 30 and 50. I
>think you'll find that you significantly exceed that total with breakfast.
>

Our individual carb restriction should be balanced against our weight.
I consistently weigh 175 pounds in the morning just after getting out
of bed, and still in my pajamas. I am 6'2" tall and have a rather
large bone structure. My doctor tells me that my weight is at the
optimum level and I should not go any lower.

>
>The combination of oral meds, exercise and a low carb diet keeps me in
>good numbers - FBG this morning was 88.
>

My doctor put me on Glimepiride about 3 years ago then took me off
this prescription about a year ago when my BG and weight readings were
within what he recognized as a healthy, normal range. He expressed
concern that taking the Glimepiride might cause me to go hypoglycemic
during the night, and I should stop taking it because of this risk and
because I no longer needed it.

I sure wish I could get my morning FBG down into the 90 ą mg/dL range
and keep it there with no medications. I do exercise quite a bit and
my general health is very good for an old coot but I am concerned that
if I don't manage my diabetes very well I could end up in a dismal
state of health. I surely don't want to spend the last few years of my
life being pushed around in a wheel chair!

Gordon

[Mike Paff]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:10:48 -0600, Antares 531
<gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:

>The thing that still puzzles and amazes me is that things like this
>VERY HIGH CARB breakfast won't do much in the way of raising my BG
>level, but even a modest carb meal later in the day will sent me sky
>high. Why? If I eat even a normal sized piece of toast with natural
>cow butter and no jelly or other such gooey stuff with my lunch meal
>it will spike my BG reading very noticeably.

Everybody's reaction to glucose is different. Most people tend
to be able to handle larger carb intake later in the day without
spiking, but some (like me) are the opposite: I can eat a carbier
breakfast without spiking, but need to control my later meals
more closely.

Also, the fat & protein that you had with your breakfast may be
slowing the processing of the carbs, moving the BG peak.

>I'm guessing that my Norwegian genotype has provided me with those
>specific genes that promote a strong "Dawn Effect" and this lets me
>eat a whomping big carb-rich breakfast with no serious spike in my BG
>reading.
>
>Now, if I could just learn what hormones/enzymes, etc., my Dawn Effect
>releases, maybe I could take some medications that would do the same
>thing with no serious side effects or risks at all.
>

One thing you might consider trying is to go low-carb for a couple
weeks, without falling back on any high carb "experiments" in order
to reduce your liver's glycogen stores. That may cut back on the
Dawn Effect you are seeing because the liver can't dump as much sugar.

Mike

[Cindy Wells]

On 2/29/2012 9:10 AM, Antares 531 wrote:

> The thing that still puzzles and amazes me is that things like this
> VERY HIGH CARB breakfast won't do much in the way of raising my BG
> level, but even a modest carb meal later in the day will sent me sky
> high. Why? If I eat even a normal sized piece of toast with natural
> cow butter and no jelly or other such gooey stuff with my lunch meal
> it will spike my BG reading very noticeably.
>

It's the fat. As you saw the other day when you continued testing
hourly, your 1.5 hour reading after this breakfast isn't the peak. From
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.diabetes/browse_thread/thread/65a88e795dac1851#
with corrections:

> 1.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 117 mg/dL @ 8:15 AM.
>
> One mile jog/walk @ 8:30-8:50 AM.
>
> 2.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 136 mg/dL @ 9:16 AM.
>
> 3.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 143 mg/dL @ 10:15 AM.
>
> 4.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 95 mg/dL @ 11:19 AM.
>
> 5.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 103 mg/dL @ 12:07 PM.


> Gordon
>


When you do this and look only at your 1.5 hour reading, you are fooling
yourself as to the effects. If you must eat the biscuit with gravy, try
1/2 biscuit once a week or once a month (better). Then test, test test
for the rest of the day. Another time, try 1 biscuit. You obviously
can't have two of these high carb biscuits in the morning.


Cindy Wells
(an advocate of the occasional bad food is fine but in moderation. Thus
I may allow myself 1 small serving of ice cream per month in the summer
skipping the usual other fat and dairy portions of the day.)

[ray]

metformin works for me - and as I understand it, there virtually no risk
of hypos with it. It simply helps with utilization of insulin.

>
> I sure wish I could get my morning FBG down into the 90 ± mg/dL range

[Antares 531]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:30:31 -0600, Cindy Wells
<lcwel...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 2/29/2012 9:10 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>
>> The thing that still puzzles and amazes me is that things like this
>> VERY HIGH CARB breakfast won't do much in the way of raising my BG
>> level, but even a modest carb meal later in the day will sent me sky
>> high. Why? If I eat even a normal sized piece of toast with natural
>> cow butter and no jelly or other such gooey stuff with my lunch meal
>> it will spike my BG reading very noticeably.
>>
>
>It's the fat. As you saw the other day when you continued testing
>hourly, your 1.5 hour reading after this breakfast isn't the peak. From
>http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.diabetes/browse_thread/thread/65a88e795dac1851#
>with corrections:
>

This was my assessment too, but I still can't explain why the fat in
my breakfast will suppress my BG readings after breakfast but it won't
work if I eat a gob of carbs for lunch along with some very similar
fat foods such as fried breaded chicken or some toast with a slice of
beef that has a lot of fat in it. There has to be something else
playing into this overall picture. Synergistic effect or something
like this. But, what is it?

>
> > 1.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 117 mg/dL @ 8:15 AM.
>>
>> One mile jog/walk @ 8:30-8:50 AM.
>>
>> 2.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 136 mg/dL @ 9:16 AM.
>>
>> 3.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 143 mg/dL @ 10:15 AM.
>>
>> 4.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 95 mg/dL @ 11:19 AM.
>>
>> 5.5 hours after starting breakfast BG 103 mg/dL @ 12:07 PM.
>
>
>> Gordon
>>
>
>
>When you do this and look only at your 1.5 hour reading, you are fooling
>yourself as to the effects. If you must eat the biscuit with gravy, try
>1/2 biscuit once a week or once a month (better). Then test, test test
>for the rest of the day. Another time, try 1 biscuit. You obviously
>can't have two of these high carb biscuits in the morning.
>

I agree, for the long term, but for the purpose of learning just what
the heck is going on with my metabolism, I will continue to pitch it a
fast ball from time to time then study the results. Maybe some day
I'll stumble onto some understanding that works reliably and
predictably.

>
>Cindy Wells
>(an advocate of the occasional bad food is fine but in moderation. Thus
>I may allow myself 1 small serving of ice cream per month in the summer
>skipping the usual other fat and dairy portions of the day.)
>

Fat, if it is poly or mono-unsaturated, does not bother me at all.
Whole milk with the butterfat, just the way God put it together for us
works very well for me.

The marketing strategy has convinced most people that skim milk is
better for them, but in reality, it is better only for the marketing
strategy oriented people.

I grew up on a farm/ranch and we milked lots of cows and raised lots
of pigs. We separated the cream from the milk then sold the cream and
fed the skim milk to the pigs. WOW how they fleshed out and fattened
up on that good ole skim milk and lots of high carb cereal grains like
corn, maize, etc. A healthy baby pig could grow to 300 pounds in a bit
more than 6 months!

Skim milk = pig food, or human food if one wants to grow fast and
fatten up like a pig.

Marketing strategy is what controls the assessment that things like
skim milk are good for you and things like whole milk are bad for you.
They want us to believe that God made a terrible mistake when He put
butterfat into milk. Better toss that butterfat aside and consume only
the skim milk pig food that is left.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

On 29 Feb 2012 15:26:19 GMT, ray <r...@zianet.com> wrote:

Ray, thanks for your insights. I don't disagree with anything you've
said, but I think that since I'm pre-diabetic or early stages type 2
and you are mature type 1, we have to march to a different drummer, so
to speak.

According to my doctor, my pancreas' beta cells are still in good
health and produce all the insulin I need, but my body's cells are not
responding very well to the insulin/glucose that is in my blood. I'm
trying to understand what has my body's cells clogged up such that
they can't respond to the insulin/glucose that is available in my
blood. Obviously, something in these body cells' insulin receptors
and/or glucose portals is out of tune or perhaps blocked by something
such as the residue from artificial sweeteners or flavoring agents
that I've eaten in the past.

Eating protein and fats (natural mono or unsaturated) seems to help my
body cells take up the glucose from my blood. Don't know why but I've
tested and re-tested this and it works every time.

Gordon

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:

Again, I inerleaf

: I eat things like those biscuits & gravy for breakfast

from time to
: time because I really like 'em, and also because I want to study the
: effects of various food intakes. Can't do much but guess unless one
: tries things on for size, can you?

You don't need to test qit 2 bisuiet, why ot one occaionally? Also that
140 at 1.5 hours is fair by the standards many of us try to follow, 140 at
1 hour and 120 at 2 housr. Last time you reported on that biscuit
breakfast was the frequent test day and you kept going up in bgs after the
1.5 hour mark. It woudl be wise for you to test at 2.5 , 3.5, etc until
you see a downturn. this may have been a fluke or it may be your pattern
with a fatty high carb breakfast. You won't know unless you repeat the
test pattern a few times with NO ONTHER CHANGES.

: The thing that still

puzzles and amazes me is that things like
this : VERY HIGH CARB breakfast won't do much in the way of raising my BG
: level, but even a modest carb meal later in the day will sent me sky
: high. Why? If I eat even a normal sized piece of toast with natural
: cow butter and no jelly or other such gooey stuff with my lunch meal
: it will spike my BG reading very noticeably.

We all have to find when we are most insulin resistant. Most find that
the morning is the worst and more carbs can be tolerated at dinner than at
breakfast or lunch. You may just have a different pattern or you may well
be eating less fat at lunch than at the havy breakfast.

: I'm guessing

that my Norwegian genotype has provided me with those
: specific genes that promote a strong "Dawn Effect" and this lets me
: eat a whomping big carb-rich breakfast with no serious spike in my BG
: reading.

Biorn (sp?) shuld have more to say on that!

: Now, if I could just learn what hormones/enzymes, etc., my Dawn Effect

: releases, maybe I could take some medications that would do the same
: thing with no serious side effects or risks at all.

With medications there is an element of trial and error even for
endocrinologist as peole do vary. As I have sain I am not on 500mgs of
metforming 2X a day(down from double tht amount a few years ago) and tht 1
mg of Glimperide at bedtime for m FBGs. maybe if I ate even fewer carbs,
etc I could get rid of the Glimperide, but I don't want to gamble adn the
dose s quite small and it works. I came sdown n the Metformin once by
accidental discover and once by what was supposed to be temporary when my
endo took me down when my husband was in his final illness. the first time
going frm 12,00 in tot a day to 1,500 a daycame because I was away form
home an drunning low , so , rahter than takign the full dse until I ran
out, I stretched the does and my numbers did not get worse, so the Endo
said, just stay on that dose. I had the same wxperience after my husband
died, so I am staying on the lower dose.

There ae assorted meds and fo rmany, supplements(which are actuall
medicines too), from tweakers to heavy duty stuff. You start with
tweakers and see if that works(Metformin is usually the first one of
choice if you can tolerate it gastically(I use the extended release for
gastric issues). It has some side effects and a few people can't tolerate
it. Two peole in this group who have had steroid and cortisol problems
both had nasty reactions to it, but most people tolerte it well one th
egastric issue subside and can stay on it for yeaers. there are many
other things tht are tried, but in genersl, tyr first no meds , diet and
exercise. ten if tht does not work, start slowly and build up only if
necessary to dontrol th ebgs. I think rying ot find exactly what you may
lack and what each thing (hormone, etc ) does will prove difficult,
timeconsuming and probably a bit frustrating. I am neither a scientis or
an engineer, but I think making too big a project could be
counterproductive.


: Gordon

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 10:30:31 -0600, Cindy Wells

: <lcwel...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

: >On 2/29/2012 9:10 AM, Antares 531 wrote:

: >
: >It's the fat. As you saw the other day when you continued testing

: >hourly, your 1.5 hour reading after this breakfast isn't the peak. From
: >http://groups.google.com/group/misc.health.diabetes/browse_thread/thread/65a88e795dac1851#
: >with corrections:
: >
: This was my assessment too, but I still can't explain why the fat in
: my breakfast will suppress my BG readings after breakfast but it won't
: work if I eat a gob of carbs for lunch along with some very similar
: fat foods such as fried breaded chicken or some toast with a slice of
: beef that has a lot of fat in it. There has to be something else
: playing into this overall picture. Synergistic effect or something
: like this. But, what is it?

I don't remember if you tested before your lunch the day you had the
fried chicken. by the way, when testing it is NOT NECESSARY to test at
level of fat and carb you really would not be eating as a careful
diabetic. No need to stress the system or knock it out of whak so it
can't adjust to a recuring pattern tht works to keep fbg, bgs and A1c all
in order.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:

: On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:31:25 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

: >x-no-archive: yes
: >
: >On 2/29/2012 9:19 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
: >
: >> My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
: >> this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.
: >>
: I made a typo here. My FBG this morning was 109, not 108 mg/dL.

You equipment is not that accurate! There is a margin of error of eaily 1
0-15% with the metersso those are identical tests fo rall intents and
purposes.


: I just did a mid-morning BG test and it was 110 mg/dL, down from the

: earlier reading of 140 that I took 1.5 hours after starting my

: breakfast. Mid moring was how many hours after breakfast?

Wendy

[Cindy Wells]

On 2/29/2012 2:27 PM, Antares 531 wrote:

> This was my assessment too, but I still can't explain why the fat in
> my breakfast will suppress my BG readings after breakfast but it won't
> work if I eat a gob of carbs for lunch along with some very similar
> fat foods such as fried breaded chicken or some toast with a slice of
> beef that has a lot of fat in it. There has to be something else
> playing into this overall picture. Synergistic effect or something
> like this. But, what is it?

Most likely it's a response to the diurnal changes in all the other
biological systems in your body. Without massive amounts of blood being
drawn and separated (HPLC or GC/MS), I doubt you'll ever be able to
track everything that is happening over the day.

There are probably also differences in the specific fats cut into the
biscuit recipe versus that in the breading or in the fat surrounding the
beef. (Butter isn't the same as tallow.)

> Gordon

Cindy Wells
(who settled for "this meal works; that one doesn't" and I'm going to be
dealing with bg issues for a lot longer. I have a family history of Type
2 diabetes and caught on to the precursors in my 20s. Since the spikes
and valleys comes with migraine headaches, I monitor for any previously
known "good meal" becoming a bad choice. I used enough migraine meds
before figuring out those good meals. HPLC or GC/MS = high pressure
liquid chromatography or gas chromatography/ mass spectroscopy. I hang
out with analytical chemists.)

[Antares 531]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 21:23:39 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
<wba...@panix.com> wrote:

>Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
>Again, I inerleaf
>
>: I eat things like those biscuits & gravy for breakfast
>from time to
>: time because I really like 'em, and also because I want to study the
>: effects of various food intakes. Can't do much but guess unless one
>: tries things on for size, can you?
>
>You don't need to test qit 2 bisuiet, why ot one occaionally? Also that
>140 at 1.5 hours is fair by the standards many of us try to follow, 140 at
>1 hour and 120 at 2 housr. Last time you reported on that biscuit
>breakfast was the frequent test day and you kept going up in bgs after the
>1.5 hour mark. It woudl be wise for you to test at 2.5 , 3.5, etc until
>you see a downturn. this may have been a fluke or it may be your pattern
>with a fatty high carb breakfast. You won't know unless you repeat the
>test pattern a few times with NO ONTHER CHANGES.
>

Yes, my follow-up BG tests after that carb rich breakfast were as you
say. My readings went up until just before lunch reaching a high of
143 at 10:15 AM. But it dropped all the way down to 95 just before
lunch.

This morning I did a repeat of the two biscuits w/gravy breakfast and
didn't get the sustained high readings. It was 140 at the 1.5 hour
point but dropped back to 110 by mid-morning and stayed down in that
range on through lunch time.

[Antares 531]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 16:48:07 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>

>On 2/29/2012 4:23 PM, W. Baker wrote:
>
>> We all have to find when we are most insulin resistant. Most find that
>> the morning is the worst and more carbs can be tolerated at dinner than at
>> breakfast or lunch.
>

>I think it's important to note that this is normal, not an IR related
>phenomenon. It's due to diurnal cortisol rhythm making bg highest early
>in the day.
>
>IR refers to cell's insensitivity to insulin.
>
>Susan
>
In the morning, after a comfortable night's rest and digestion of the
last evening meal, one's muscle cells are probably stuffed full of
glucose and don't need/can not accept any more. The liver will then
have to convert the blood glucose into fat and store it in the fat
cells. This would account for an IR in the morning that is perhaps
greater than later in the day.

Then, if a person gets up and begins to move around and exercise
rather extensively throughout the morning, the muscle cells will all
begin to need more glucose to burn for fuel. This should cause the IR
for these muscle cells to drop appreciably as the day wears on.

Then, in the evening, sitting in front of the TV and munching some
high carb goodies, the muscle cells will again become full up to the
brim with glucose and will become IR.

Correct me where I'm wrong. I don't claim to know much about this, but
have studied it a lot, lately.

Gordon

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:f2csk7h7ou8tua4g8...@4ax.com...

>I had a very hefty, gluttonous breakfast at 6:30 AM this morning,
> consisting of two eggs over medium, two large, greasy sausage patties,
> two white flour biscuits w/white flour gravy, about one cup of cottage
> cheese on lettuce, & lots of black coffee.

Fer cryin' in the beer! Why are you doing this? It makes no sense! Are
you trying to gain weight?

>
> My 1.5 hour postprandial BG reading was 140 mg/dL, at 8:00 AM this
> morning. This is at the top of the acceptable range posted by the
> American Diabetes Association.
>

And you likely had a spike that was higher than that somewhere around the 3
hour mark because that was a very fatty meal. Telling us that you ate two
biscuits means nothing. Or a cup of cottage cheese for that matter. What
was the carb count of the meal? That's what matters. Eating a huge meal
isn't necessarily going to affect your BG. That may well have been within
your range of an acceptable amount of carbs to eat. Or it may not have.
Because you were testing at a weird time.

> My bedtime BG reading last night @ 9:33 PM was 117 mg/dL. This was
> taken about 4 hours after supper at 5:30 PM, and I had eaten nothing
> after supper. In fact I ate no between meal snacks at all, yesterday
> and the day before. I drank nothing but water between meals, after my
> breakfast coffee was finished.
>

Again... I don't know what this has to do with anything. If you eat any of
the free foods between meals, it shouldn't affect your BG. You could
probably also eat cheese, nuts, eggs or meat. Maybe even some olives. Not
that I am telling you to eat between meals. I don't know if you were hungry
or not.

> My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
> this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.

What do you mean it isn't very good? Why isn't it very good? My range
should be 90 to 130 at all times. I usually isn't. It happens to be 122 at
the moment. But keep in mind that you *do* have diabetes and your BG isn't
going to be stable, ever. It isn't even stable in a "normie" but they will
have far less variance than we do.

>
> I simply do not understand how/why my morning fasting BG reading can
> be so high then not go MUCH higher after eating a breakfast like this.
> Any ideas or insights would be greatly appreciated.

You don't know that it didn't go higher. As I said... You tested at the
wrong time. Fat delays the absorption of carbs. Eat a high fat meal and
you'll likely have a spike later.

I feel like you are totally barking up the wrong tree. I can't understand
what you are looking for or why you are going about it the way you are.

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

news:udfsk75pcce02ff09...@4ax.com...

>I eat things like those biscuits & gravy for breakfast from time to
> time because I really like 'em, and also because I want to study the
> effects of various food intakes. Can't do much but guess unless one
> tries things on for size, can you?

I like them too and I do eat them from time to time. But I would never add
all that other stuff! And depending on the size of the biscuit, I might
only eat one!

>
> The thing that still puzzles and amazes me is that things like this
> VERY HIGH CARB breakfast won't do much in the way of raising my BG
> level, but even a modest carb meal later in the day will sent me sky
> high. Why? If I eat even a normal sized piece of toast with natural
> cow butter and no jelly or other such gooey stuff with my lunch meal
> it will spike my BG reading very noticeably.

How was it very high carb? How many carbs? How many carbs in the toast?
Bread can vary vastly. I just threw out the remains of a loaf that has 13g
per slice. And the new bread that I just bought has 24g per slice. But...
It has a lot more fiber than the other stuff.

How many carbs are in your lunch meat? Some of it is sugared or honey
roasted.

>
> I'm guessing that my Norwegian genotype has provided me with those
> specific genes that promote a strong "Dawn Effect" and this lets me
> eat a whomping big carb-rich breakfast with no serious spike in my BG
> reading.

I don't know about that.

>
> Now, if I could just learn what hormones/enzymes, etc., my Dawn Effect
> releases, maybe I could take some medications that would do the same
> thing with no serious side effects or risks at all.

Good luck with that!

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

news:2j1tk79hah77u9o8p...@4ax.com...

How many times can we tell you this!? It *does* affect you! You just don't
know it because you are not testing your BG at the 2, 3 or 4 hour marks. I
can pretty much guarantee you that you are having a spike then! Of *course*
your BG is fine at 1.5 hours because that fat you ate has prevented the
carbs from getting into your system.

>
> The marketing strategy has convinced most people that skim milk is
> better for them, but in reality, it is better only for the marketing
> strategy oriented people.

That has nothing to do with it. Diabetics should probably not drink skim
milk unless they are treating a hypo.

>
> I grew up on a farm/ranch and we milked lots of cows and raised lots
> of pigs. We separated the cream from the milk then sold the cream and
> fed the skim milk to the pigs. WOW how they fleshed out and fattened
> up on that good ole skim milk and lots of high carb cereal grains like
> corn, maize, etc. A healthy baby pig could grow to 300 pounds in a bit
> more than 6 months!
>
> Skim milk = pig food, or human food if one wants to grow fast and
> fatten up like a pig.

Argh!

>
> Marketing strategy is what controls the assessment that things like
> skim milk are good for you and things like whole milk are bad for you.
> They want us to believe that God made a terrible mistake when He put
> butterfat into milk. Better toss that butterfat aside and consume only
> the skim milk pig food that is left.

You don't get it. You just don't get it!

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

news:t5atk7lidhafatg8u...@4ax.com...

Why would a diabetic sit around watching TV and munching high carb goodies?

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

news:9bisk7ptmrbhq2okm...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:31:25 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:
>
>>x-no-archive: yes
>>
>>On 2/29/2012 9:19 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>>
>>> My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
>>> this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.
>>>
> I made a typo here. My FBG this morning was 109, not 108 mg/dL.

Not so much difference that it would matter.

>
> I just did a mid-morning BG test and it was 110 mg/dL, down from the
> earlier reading of 140 that I took 1.5 hours after starting my
> breakfast.

What does mid-morning mean? How many hours?

>
> Do you suppose the ALA is beginning to kick in, or is this all because
> I've quit eating any snacks between meals? I guess I should continue
> with the no-snack regimen for a few days and see if the good results
> continue, then do a back-slide and eat some snacks for a day or two to
> see if this disrupts the sequence of nice, healthy BG readings.

ALA doesn't seem to affect my BG.

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

news:u6jsk7ptfprl70r67...@4ax.com...

Why? Why do you want to do this? Does it really matter? I say, "no".
AFAIK there is no evidence that going above 90 is harmful. Much higher
numbers, yes. How high? I don't know.

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

news:gl2tk7t912j5ge1hi...@4ax.com...

That's called type 2 diabetes. I use artificial sweeteners all the time.

>
> Eating protein and fats (natural mono or unsaturated) seems to help my
> body cells take up the glucose from my blood. Don't know why but I've
> tested and re-tested this and it works every time.

Dunno.

[Antares 531]

I'm sure some can use artificial sweeteners and have no adverse side
effects, but I'm not sure all of us can. This is another of those
situations where we each have our own degree of adaptation...like
having a beer from time to time and not becoming addicted to alcohol.

[Antares 531]

I would just like to know that I have this under control and can
probably keep it under control for as long as I live. If my BG
readings are up near the top of "acceptable" I would be concerned that
they will inch on up into the unacceptable range sooner or later.
Then, kidney damage, visual loss, etc., would be the next thing to hit
me. Don't want that at all. I'm still very robust and energetic. I
like being able to get out and around with no complications.

[Antares 531]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:15:14 -0800, "Julie Bove"
<juli...@frontier.com> wrote:

>
>"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message
>news:9bisk7ptmrbhq2okm...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:31:25 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:
>>
>>>x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>>On 2/29/2012 9:19 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>>>
>>>> My morning fasting BG reading was 108 mg/dL upon awakening at 5:58 AM
>>>> this morning. This isn't really bad, but it isn't very good, either.
>>>>
>> I made a typo here. My FBG this morning was 109, not 108 mg/dL.
>
>Not so much difference that it would matter.
>>
>> I just did a mid-morning BG test and it was 110 mg/dL, down from the
>> earlier reading of 140 that I took 1.5 hours after starting my
>> breakfast.
>
>What does mid-morning mean? How many hours?
>

About half way between breakfast and lunch. If I eat breakfast around
6:00 AM and lunch around 12:00 this would be in the 9:00 AM realm.

>>
>> Do you suppose the ALA is beginning to kick in, or is this all because
>> I've quit eating any snacks between meals? I guess I should continue
>> with the no-snack regimen for a few days and see if the good results
>> continue, then do a back-slide and eat some snacks for a day or two to
>> see if this disrupts the sequence of nice, healthy BG readings.
>
>ALA doesn't seem to affect my BG.
>

What does it affect? That is, what is your purpose in taking it if it
doesn't help you manage your BG?

[Antares 531]

Not every diabetic has a clear, rational understanding of things like
this, and/or the self control to avoid making this kind of mistake.
Some are like alcoholics and their over indulgence in alcohol. They
may know that they shouldn't be drinking excessively, but simply do
not have the self control to abstain from doing so.

[Antares 531]

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:08:21 -0800, "Julie Bove"
<juli...@frontier.com> wrote:

>
>"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message
>news:udfsk75pcce02ff09...@4ax.com...
>>I eat things like those biscuits & gravy for breakfast from time to
>> time because I really like 'em, and also because I want to study the
>> effects of various food intakes. Can't do much but guess unless one
>> tries things on for size, can you?
>
>I like them too and I do eat them from time to time. But I would never add
>all that other stuff! And depending on the size of the biscuit, I might
>only eat one!
>

I'm a robust, healthy male, weighing 175 pounds. I probably need more
of any kind of food than you do. I never have been fat, but was a bit
over weight before I started a low carb diet a few months ago.

>
>>
>> The thing that still puzzles and amazes me is that things like this
>> VERY HIGH CARB breakfast won't do much in the way of raising my BG
>> level, but even a modest carb meal later in the day will sent me sky
>> high. Why? If I eat even a normal sized piece of toast with natural
>> cow butter and no jelly or other such gooey stuff with my lunch meal
>> it will spike my BG reading very noticeably.
>
>How was it very high carb? How many carbs? How many carbs in the toast?
>Bread can vary vastly. I just threw out the remains of a loaf that has 13g
>per slice. And the new bread that I just bought has 24g per slice. But...
>It has a lot more fiber than the other stuff.
>

I have no way of measuring or assessing the carb level of that
breakfast but I'm sure two medium sized white flour biscuits sloshed
with lots of white flour gravy is in the HIGH CARB category.

>
>How many carbs are in your lunch meat? Some of it is sugared or honey
>roasted.
>

Usually my lunch meal includes a slice of broiled or fried steak. I
like fried chicken but it will cause a large BG spike, even if I strip
the skin and crust off and eat only the remaining meat.

My best results for a lunch is to eat something like fish on salad,
with a boiled egg, but I get bored with this and have to go for
something else from time to time.

[Antares 531]

Your information and understanding seems to be out of date on this
matter. Most dietitians have revised their thinking on this a lot,
over the past 10 years. I'm not a dietitian, but I do know that I can
eat those fats I mentioned and never have any negative effects.

[Cindy Wells]

On 3/1/2012 7:41 AM, Antares 531 wrote:

> I would just like to know that I have this under control and can
> probably keep it under control for as long as I live. If my BG
> readings are up near the top of "acceptable" I would be concerned that
> they will inch on up into the unacceptable range sooner or later.
> Then, kidney damage, visual loss, etc., would be the next thing to hit
> me. Don't want that at all. I'm still very robust and energetic. I
> like being able to get out and around with no complications.

Then stop worrying about the "whys" and artificial sweetener side
effects. Figure out which meals work when and enjoy the rest of your day.

Cindy Wells

[Cindy Wells]

On 3/1/2012 8:02 AM, Antares 531 wrote:

> I have no way of measuring or assessing the carb level of that
> breakfast but I'm sure two medium sized white flour biscuits sloshed
> with lots of white flour gravy is in the HIGH CARB category.
>>

My Book of Food Counts (1991) gives commercial biscuits a carb count of
10 g per biscuit for one brand up to 28 g (Bridgford 2 oz. frozen). For
homemade biscuits, the carb count can be calculated with a recipe
analysis tool. Alternatively, use the side panel nutrition information
for each ingredient in the batch. Then calculate how many grams of
carbohydrates from each one went into the batch then divide by the
number of biscuits made. (The value may be a little high since there may
have been some dough that wasn't made into a biscuit. It will be close
enough.) The homemade biscuit recipe from Allrecipe.com gives 21 g total
carbohydrates each. (The basic recipe is for 48 biscuits but you can
have it recalculate the ingredients for other batch sizes.)
(http://allrecipes.com/recipe/homemade-biscuit-mix/) My nutrition
breakdown said to count 15 g of carbohydrates as 1 serving. (I'd count 2
biscuits as 3 servings at 42g total.) This is without adding the gravy
which usually has a little flour added.

Just for a quick comparison, a Hardee's Biscuit and gravy portion has 45
g of carbohydrates. The carb count has probably increased since Hardee's
went on their "Big Breakfast" and super-sized sandwiches craze.

>> How many carbs are in your lunch meat? Some of it is sugared or honey
>> roasted.
>>
> Usually my lunch meal includes a slice of broiled or fried steak. I
> like fried chicken but it will cause a large BG spike, even if I strip
> the skin and crust off and eat only the remaining meat.
>

What else are you eating with the chicken? What type and thickness of
batter is on it? (A basic flour coating gives a maximum of 4.6 g of
carbohydrates per serving.) I've seen recipes for buttermilk-soaked,
thick batter Southern-style fried chicken that has to be a significantly
higher carbohydrate portion (cook's Country or America's Test Chicken on
PBS). Since the buttermilk soaks into the chicken, you would still get a
high carb count taking off the skin. Try roasted or baked chicken
instead. (A little oil on the skin then sprinkle the skin with your
favorite spice blend is a nice option.)

Cindy Wells

[Antares 531]

That sounds a bit like the old saying I heard from time to time when I
was a kid. "Live dangerously, die young and have a good looking
corpse." Too late for me to do this. I'm already old and ugly. ;-)

Seriously, though, my main concern in these matters is to avoid or
forestall any serious diabetes related complications such as kidney
failure, eye failure, etc. I'd rather forgo some of the eating
pleasures of the present time and enjoy good vision, etc., well into
my final years, or perhaps all the way to the end.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

Cindy, from all I've read and heard, things have changed enormously
over the past few years, regarding diet and diabetes understandings.
We all need to keep on top of this and stay up to date. Any diet book
or other such documentation that is more than 10 years old is likely
to have some errors and misunderstandings embedded in the information.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2012 10:40:05 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>

>On 3/1/2012 10:09 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>
>
>> That sounds a bit like the old saying I heard from time to time when I
>> was a kid. "Live dangerously, die young and have a good looking
>> corpse." Too late for me to do this. I'm already old and ugly. ;-)
>>
>> Seriously, though, my main concern in these matters is to avoid or
>> forestall any serious diabetes related complications such as kidney
>> failure, eye failure, etc. I'd rather forgo some of the eating
>> pleasures of the present time and enjoy good vision, etc., well into
>> my final years, or perhaps all the way to the end.
>>
>

>Cindy said to figure out which meals work and then get on with it.
>
>That's the most important thing to do in order to avoid those complications.
>
>Susan
>
Susan, I quite agree, food intake control is a MAJOR part of the
coping strategy, but I'm searching for understanding as to what is
going wrong within my metabolic system, and why is it going wrong.

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:14:03 -0800, "Julie Bove"

Clearly it does not apply to you or to the peole who are on this
newsgroup. i woudl love to know how to convince the non-compliers that it
is important enough to do, so they would stop the overeating, etc, but
that, I believe, will onloy be achieved ins small steps. it doesn not,
owevere, help you or most of us in dealign with our own diabees, as
motivated apeople who are exercising control. What we are looking for is
what are the best ways to cotrol, sontrolling is given.

As to dieticians, many of us came here because of terrible advice given by
dieticians. I have not seenone for years, bso I cna't say tht thier
mantra had changed enough to be helpful to me. Most of use have long
given u on dieticians advice on many points like how many carbs, etc.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:08:21 -0800, "Julie Bove"
: <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:

: I'm a robust, healthy male, weighing 175 pounds. I probably need more

: of any kind of food than you do. I never have been fat, but was a bit
: over weight before I started a low carb diet a few months ago.

: >

but diabetic, no matter what your MD says! Also, how low is your low carb
diet?

: I have no way of measuring or assessing the carb level of that

: breakfast but I'm sure two medium sized white flour biscuits sloshed
: with lots of white flour gravy is in the HIGH CARB category.

I assume that the bisuits are home made, not frm a package with a
nutrition label. You can sdo what I did some 26 years ago and us the US
government data to find the carb value for each ingredient adn with
simeple enough math(this History teacher could do it), get the value of
the recipe and divide it by the number of biscuits and do the same for the
gravy and figre how many you made, say 1 pint, and how many tablespoons of
gravy you used at 16 Tbs per 8 oz cup, so 32 for a full 16 oz pint. If
you are so concerned about this, you have to do the scut work to have the
knoledge. i used this for soups and other such dishesso I would know how
many carbs in a serving, or alternnately how big a serving I could eat.
If you use prepared foods, they sould all have the carbs on the label.
You can subtract fiber, as that is actually processed differently.


: >
: Usually my lunch meal includes a slice of broiled or fried steak. I

: like fried chicken but it will cause a large BG spike, even if I strip
: the skin and crust off and eat only the remaining meat.

: My best results for a lunch is to eat something like fish on salad,
: with a boiled egg, but I get bored with this and have to go for
: something else from time to time.

Try cooking chicken by other methods, baking or roasting pieces or whole,
broiling small chickens or small pieces. Sauteing , say chicken breasts
wit no skin or bones in a little oile, season with salt, pepper, herbs
you like and, if you like, a litt wine in the last few moments of cooking.
Low in carbs, and salories. : > : >I don't know about that.

: >>
: >> Now, if I could just learn what hormones/enzymes, etc., my Dawn Effect
: >> releases, maybe I could take some medications that would do the same
: >> thing with no serious side effects or risks at all.
: >
: >Good luck with that!

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: On Thu, 01 Mar 2012 08:15:47 -0600, Cindy Wells

that is what we all want and what we ar e trying to do and, in many, many
cases have succeeded. 26 years , with an A1c under 6, stble, but hgh
weight for the last 25 of those years, testing frequently enough and
getting on the scale enugh to keep me honest, keeping no cookins in the
house now that Syd is gone, NEVER bringing potato chips into the house:-),
etc. I have a good endocrinologist who is amazed at my success and has
been reducing my medication( as I have described) as needed. It is
becomeing unclear to me why you feel that withut becoming an
endocriologicall scientist you feel unable to be able to control yourself.
I know of no such peole on thisin this newgrou, but we have many success
stories. We are not all uncontrolled carb munching idiots becasue we are
not scientists. we take each other's advice and try it on ourselves, we
use our far from 100% accurate bg meters to see how things are ging with
us, including making occasional frequent test checks to make susre hat
everything is still the same.

Stop obscessing over all the physilogical and endocrinological science and
stop worriying that such lack of technical knowledge will spell diaster
for you. You will drive yourself crazy over this and there is no need to.
Stress, itself, can led to higher bgs so don't add to your problems by
fussing over them too much.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:

It has gone wrong adn cannot be totally dixed at this point in time.
Perhaps long afer we are gone at 1 04, they will find something thata
fixes it permanently, but don't hold your breath. Genes play a part in
this too otherwise everyong ofver a certain BMI would be diabetic and that
is not the case, Search for the understaning, but think of that as a kind
of hobby, rahter than what you need to CONTROL your disease. And be
careful, Don't fall for any of the crack-pots that pappear occasionally
with guaranteed cures!

Wendy

[Antares 531]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2012 18:38:54 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>
wrote:

>Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
>: On Thu, 01 Mar 2012 10:40:05 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:
>

<snip>

>
>: >Cindy said to figure out which meals work and then get on with it.
>: >
>: >That's the most important thing to do in order to avoid those complications.
>: >
>: >Susan
>: >
>: Susan, I quite agree, food intake control is a MAJOR part of the
>: coping strategy, but I'm searching for understanding as to what is
>: going wrong within my metabolic system, and why is it going wrong.
>

>It has gone wrong and cannot be totally fixed at this point in time.

>Perhaps long afer we are gone at 104, they will find something that

>fixes it permanently, but don't hold your breath. Genes play a part in

>this too otherwise everyong over a certain BMI would be diabetic and that

>is not the case, Search for the understaning, but think of that as a kind
>of hobby, rahter than what you need to CONTROL your disease. And be
>careful, Don't fall for any of the crack-pots that pappear occasionally
>with guaranteed cures!
>
>Wendy
>

Okay, I'll quit pestering the group and get on with some other means
for information gathering. I am working with a neurophysioligist who
also wants to delve into this set of problems. Maybe we can discover
something that works.

There is some information that leads us to think maybe some forms of
early stage pre-diabetes "insulin resistance" may not involve the
body's muscle and other cells but is a liver based problem or set of
problems. That is, the muscle cells may have all the glucose they need
and there may be adequate insulin in the blood but if the liver gets
the wrong signal some way and sends out a flood of glucose this would
cause the pancreas to release a matching flood of insulin and the
whole scheme of things goes wild.

Gordon

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: On Thu, 1 Mar 2012 18:38:54 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>

Gordon,

More powereto you if you and your neurophyiologist partner can find out
more about this disease. This is not the kind of group for that kin of
research tht you are loking ofr.

I am interested in your broad hints about how dieticians are changing
their song about diets and offering new kinds of advice. We have not seen
peole come to us with conversatin about such new lines of diet in the last
10 years. Could you expand on this so we might discuss it and see if and
how it differesfrom what we have seen in our own lives and those of more
newly diagnosed diabetics with regard to diet.

I know that the ADA has become less dogmatic about a single diet plan and
adb mits that some may well benefit form a low carb diet (but fonly for
losing weight). This was a big move fro them. I tink we would be
interested in an impartial summary of what you consider these great
changes in diet and, more importantly for diabetic, in diet ADVICE given
to the nely diagnosed.

Wendy

[Cindy Wells]

On 3/1/2012 9:09 AM, Antares 531 wrote:

> Seriously, though, my main concern in these matters is to avoid or
> forestall any serious diabetes related complications such as kidney
> failure, eye failure, etc. I'd rather forgo some of the eating
> pleasures of the present time and enjoy good vision, etc., well into
> my final years, or perhaps all the way to the end.
>

Then stop trying two biscuits with the rest of your big breakfast after
you've proven that it isn't a good meal for you. The micro-vascular
(retina, kidney, peripheral artery) damage most likely occurs when your
blood glucose stays above 120 for more than a brief time after meals.
(Example: from hitting 140-150 3 hours after breakfast before returning
to normal levels 4-5 hours after a meal.)

> Gordon

Cindy Wells
(some type 2 diabetics prefer to stay below that 120 threshold at any
time after a meal to hopefully minimize the future damage.)

[Cindy Wells]

On 3/1/2012 9:13 AM, Antares 531 wrote:

> Cindy, from all I've read and heard, things have changed enormously
> over the past few years, regarding diet and diabetes understandings.
> We all need to keep on top of this and stay up to date. Any diet book
> or other such documentation that is more than 10 years old is likely
> to have some errors and misunderstandings embedded in the information.

The Book of Food Counts is not a diet book. It is a listing of the
nutritional information that the FDA requires manufacturers tell the
consumer. The only inaccurate part over time is from manufacturers that
change the definition of one portion per package. (It's great for
getting a basic calorie/carbohydrate/fat/protein guide to a meal. Then a
meter can help you figure out if that meal works. (There's nothing like
having consistent serving information to help make sure that the bg
readings are comparable. Comparing two slices of 24 g carbohydrate bread
per serving to two slices of 7 g carbohydrate bread will give vastly
different numbers after the meal.)
>
> Gordon

Yes, dieticians have learned that dietary fat and cholesterol don't have
as much of an effect as they thought. Thus eggs are no longer a
forbidden food for most. (Excess calories do matter.) However, you still
need to find the balance that keeps your blood glucose level reasonably
free of high spikes and hypoglycemic drops. (Look through the archives
here about the Pizza effect.)

Cindy Wells
(I'm in the group where high dietary fat and cholesterol doesn't seem to
cause an increase in the serum cholesterol. That's a good thing - my dad
was on a high fat diet in his teens and stayed on a high calorie diet
for years just to maintain a healthy weight once he got to it. He'd have
died long ago without that genetics. However, I have no interest in
getting high bg levels sticking around after meals. Thus moderation in
the fats is a good thing.)

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

news:fruuk7lt06cgckq5r...@4ax.com...

Diabetes is a progressive thing. Just because you have it under control now
doesn't necessarily mean you will 10 years from now.

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

news:o24vk79g7ftps623p...@4ax.com...

Honestly there is no way of predicting who will get complications and who
won't. Just because your BG is in range doesn't mean you won't get
complications. BG is just one part of the picture.

[Antares 531]

My intentions and hopes were to learn, learn, learn, and hopefully be
able to stall the worst things off a bit longer.

[Antares 531]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:51:24 -0800, "Julie Bove"

But, it might be that if I can learn enough about diabetes and the
cause/effect processes I can stall the harsh stuff off a few more
years.

[Antares 531]

Good information, well taken. I appreciate every bit of insight like
this that I can find.

I'm still trying to figure out what the process is that we in my class
go through after eating a meal. I think the stomach and duodenum
digest the fast carbs quickly and move them into the blood, then the
pancreas senses this blood glucose rise and secretes some insulin. The
insulin flows in the blood along with the glucose and if the insulin
locks onto an insulin receptor on a body cell this will cause that
receptor to let a glucose molecule pass into the cell.

In one possible scenario, the cells are all very well stocked with
glucose those insulin receptors won't respond and the glucose remains
in the blood. The blood glucose that the body cells don't need should
be taken up by the liver and converted into fat, then stored.

I'm concerned that this may be what is happening in my case. I rarely
feel weak or under nourished. My muscle cells seem to have a constant,
reliable supply of glucose, ready to be used for energy. Yet, my blood
glucose readings regularly go up a bit too high after a meal that
isn't carb starvation formatted.

So, what might cause my liver to react inappropriately to the increase
in blood glucose after a meal, causing this to intensify instead of
toning it down? I'm guessing my liver is throwing out more glucose
instead of capturing the excess from my blood.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

I have no disagreement here at all, but I still wonder what is going
on in my metabolic processes. My BG readings the past two days have
been above 120 only three times, and I had a reading of 141 only one
time, very briefly.

[Antares 531]

On Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:09:03 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>

The dietary references you asked for are a bit hard to pin down. I've
read so many books and visited many more web sites recently that I
can't keep the information all sorted out.

The John Hopkins Guide to Diabetes for Today and Tomorrow is my main
source.

Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution by Robert C. Atkins, M.D. is another.

Two of Gretchen Becker's books about Type 1 and Type 2 Diabetes are
also oriented toward this revised assessment of fat intake.

[Antares 531]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2012 19:49:14 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>

>On 3/1/2012 7:20 PM, Antares 531 wrote:
>
>
>> My intentions and hopes were to learn, learn, learn, and hopefully be
>> able to stall the worst things off a bit longer.
>

>As a NIDDM, you can almost always predict that complications will occur
>according to your bg level management and diet.
>
>As an IDDM, all bets are off.
>
>Susan
No disagreement her at all, but what is the best way to "manage" my
blood glucose levels. Should I just blindly follow the leader and ask
no questions or should I make a sincere effort to understand the whole
scenario and use this knowledge to guide my diet, exercise, etc.?

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: On Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:09:03 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>

I havn't read the Hopkins Guide for years. Atkins we are all quite
familiar with here and many have been usign modified versins to both lose
weight and to maintain excellent bg control. Nothing new here for us and
I don't believe that any dietician is using the word Atkins as a positive
for their patients. Usually one sees him still sneered at. The Grtchen
Becker book for tye 2's is regularly recommended by peole here as an
excellent guide for the newbie, so none of this is revoluitionalry to us.
Much of the advice we have given you regarding your carb intake adn those
, by now infamous biscuits is based on the reduced carb way of
eating(WOE). Many of us live on a perpetual low carb diet, except for
birthdays, when we are allowed a small piece of birthday cake:-)
many current diet advisors are very big on whole grains. Many of us find
them not helpful in keeping bgs in line. For many of us brown rice is
about as fast spking except in tiny portions, as white rice, etc. We seek
out low carb breads and pitas and will give each other names of ones we
find with urls for those that may need to be ordered or to help locae
stores that might have these products. There is an Alt.food diabetes(I am
not 100% sure of the exact name, where we discuss food and swap recipes
adn low carb cooking hints. Not all recipes are suitable for all of us,
but we can try them and see if they work. Alt.Support.Diabetes can get a
bit fighty at times, but was where I first went and it helped me uderstand
te disese and get proper control. Just be sure to avoid any threads by a
crazy Christian Chinese cardiologist and his group of people who perist in
answering him(don't want to use his name, even here).

Interesting book, if you have not already read it, Good Calories, Bad
Calories(terrible title) by a Science writer, Gary Taubes. Mich
discussion and disagreement over it, but i found it useful and
enlightening, if extremely slow going and difficult reading for me with
all the biochem etc that he explained. You should find it much easier
going.

Well that's it for this topic for now.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Julie Bove <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:

: "Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

: news:fruuk7lt06cgckq5r...@4ax.com...

: > On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:17:16 -0800, "Julie Bove"
: > <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:

: >
: >>
: > readings are up near the top of "acceptable" I would be concerned that

: > they will inch on up into the unacceptable range sooner or later.
: > Then, kidney damage, visual loss, etc., would be the next thing to hit
: > me. Don't want that at all. I'm still very robust and energetic. I
: > like being able to get out and around with no complications.

: Diabetes is a progressive thing. Just because you have it under control now
: doesn't necessarily mean you will 10 years from now.

Julie,

It may or may not be progressive. I have been better than stable for 26
years, taking less and fewer meds now then I needed then, while you have
had a very idiomatic case of diabetes that just doesn't seem to respond as
expected and, as a result is very hard to deal with.

Wendy

[Julie Bove]

"Antares 531" <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote in message

news:ct40l7dvdml56gch0...@4ax.com...

As I said before... There is a lot more to BG than just the food that you
eat. Stress, illness, even hormonal fluctations. I don't know how much the
hormonal thing affects males. For females they can often have high BG prior
to their periods and then have it drop (possibly to too low) during their
periods. And this seems to balance out because they do need slightly more
calories per day while on their period. There are also things that we might
not perceive as stress that could cause BG to fluctuate.

I used to be in a diabetes support group. The leader was a brittle type 1.
She said they moved around a lot when she was a child. Each time she moved,
her BG would change. So pretty much anything can affect it.

[Julie Bove]

"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:jip9dm$m70$2...@reader1.panix.com...

True but every Endo. I have seen has told me it is progressive.

[Cindy Wells]

On 3/1/2012 7:08 PM, Antares 531 wrote:

> No disagreement her at all, but what is the best way to "manage" my
> blood glucose levels. Should I just blindly follow the leader and ask
> no questions or should I make a sincere effort to understand the whole
> scenario and use this knowledge to guide my diet, exercise, etc.?

Since every diabetic is different, asking questions will get you an
answer of "Your Mileage Will Vary". However, your meter is your best
authority for guiding your diet changes. (Exercise can change
intolerable meals for some to tolerable. Usually the change is not the
same day and applies more to type 1 diabetics. Type 2 diabetics,
generally, have a number of other factors helping the body maintain the
status quo.)

Cindy Wells

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 01:52:00 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>

wrote:

>Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
>: On Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:09:03 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>
>: wrote:
>
>: >

Thanks, Wendy, I'll see if my library has a copy of Gary Taubes' book.
I'm concerned that it may be more oriented toward weight control than
it is toward T2 diabetes understanding and management. I don't have a
weight problem. That is, I brought my weight down very effectively,
using Dr. Atkins' Diet Plan...count carbs, not calories. When I
limited my carb intake to around 50 grams per day my weight dropped
like a rock down to where I wanted it and has stayed there, very
stable, for the past few months.

Anyway, it is probably worth reading and hopefully will help me better
understand my diabetes condition.

I've been doing very well in terms of BG control since I started
taking three doses of 200 mg capsule Alpha Lipoic Acid and also three
doses daily of GTF Chromium Polynicotinate. I don't know if or which
of these produces the results I've had but I'll keep on with them for
a while and see what develops.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2012 20:19:29 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>

>On 3/1/2012 8:08 PM, Antares 531 wrote:
>
>> No disagreement her at all, but what is the best way to "manage" my
>> blood glucose levels. Should I just blindly follow the leader and ask
>> no questions or should I make a sincere effort to understand the whole
>> scenario and use this knowledge to guide my diet, exercise, etc.?
>

>You've been given a lot of answers, citations and have a reading list.
>
>Two final recommendations: A book by an engineer type 1 diabetic who
>became a doctor to learn about diabetes management; Dr. Bernstein's
>Diabetes Solution.
>
>Second: Good Calories, Bad Calories by science journalist Gary Taubes.
>
>That should keep you busy for months. Very dense, scientific and detailed.
>
>Susan
>
Thanks, Susan. I did a Google search on these books. It may be that
Dr. Bernstein's book is more oriented toward T1 diabetes than it is
toward T2 or pre-diabetes. Pre-diabetes or T2 diabetes is my area of
primary interest. I'll see if my library has a copy of Dr. Bernstein's
book and if they do I'll get a copy and give it a closer look before I
buy a keeper copy for my book shelf.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

I understand that you've said this before, and I appreciate the
information you've provided, but I still need to learn, learn, learn,
about my specific set of diabetes related problems. I know it is not
menopausal...I'm a male. So, I can scratch that one off the list. Now,
if I could scratch most of the other "cause/effect" sequences off the
list and narrow my condition down to just one or two or maybe three
things, I would be in a MUCH better position in terms of controlling
those things.

>
>I used to be in a diabetes support group. The leader was a brittle type 1.
>She said they moved around a lot when she was a child. Each time she moved,
>her BG would change. So pretty much anything can affect it.
>

This may have been caused by (just guessing) something as simple as
some minerals in the drinking water. Who knows???

I'd just like to understand all or most of the recognized causes of
pre-diabetes and T2 diabetes, then try to fit my situation into this
and see if there is something that I can control or modify that will
stabilize my progressing diabetes and keep me from developing any of
the serious diabetes related health problems.

Since we're all different, the only way I can hope to ever achieve the
above is to learn, learn, learn, until I have it all down pat, then
work my way through some trial and error testing of various dietary
supplements...take or abstain from, as the case may be.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:36:57 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>

>On 3/2/2012 8:55 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Susan. I did a Google search on these books. It may be that
>> Dr. Bernstein's book is more oriented toward T1 diabetes than it is
>> toward T2 or pre-diabetes. Pre-diabetes or T2 diabetes is my area of
>> primary interest. I'll see if my library has a copy of Dr. Bernstein's
>> book and if they do I'll get a copy and give it a closer look before I
>> buy a keeper copy for my book shelf.
>

>The scientific and practical reccos in his book, extensively explained
>are of huge benefit to type 2s, also.
>
>A lot of the book is available online for free, at his website.
>
>Susan
>
I just checked, on-line, and my library has a copy of Dr. Bernstein's
book. I have a copy on reserve and it should be ready for me to pick
up later today or tomorrow.

Thanks, Gordon

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:35:21 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>

>On 3/2/2012 8:51 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Wendy, I'll see if my library has a copy of Gary Taubes' book.
>> I'm concerned that it may be more oriented toward weight control than
>> it is toward T2 diabetes understanding and management.
>

>It isn't geared towards either.
>
>It is about insulin's role in health, obesity AND diseases.
>
>Susan
>
I'll get a copy of this and have a look-see after I've read Dr.
Bernstein's book.

Thanks, Gordon

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:34:12 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>

>On 3/1/2012 8:57 PM, W. Baker wrote:
>
>> Julie,
>>
>> It may or may not be progressive. I have been better than stable for 26
>> years, taking less and fewer meds now then I needed then, while you have
>> had a very idiomatic case of diabetes that just doesn't seem to respond as
>> expected and, as a result is very hard to deal with.
>

>Mine has not only not been progressive, much of it has been reversed,
>after decades of high bg and the development of kidney damage and very
>severe peripheral neuropathies. Both the kidney and nerve damage are
>gone and have remained gone for over a decade now. Tight control with
>no meds, too.
>
>But those who make bad choices or follow bad advice or incomplete
>diagnosis of the cause do progress.
>
>Susan
>
Susan, you are indeed fortunate in that the exact cause/effect process
for your condition was very closely identified and you were able to
make the necessary corrections/adaptations to your diet and lifestyle.
I hope to be able to do the same, but I need to learn more about the
exact cause/effect associated with my specific case. Everyone marches
to a different drummer, or something like that.

Gordon

[W. Baker]

Julie Bove <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:

: "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message

I know that is the accepted wisdom, but many o us rather anal diabetic on
this newsgroup and ASD have found that by controlling our bgs and A1c's by
diet, exercise and meds and/or supplements we have staved off an
progression for many years. i assume that were I to lose my ability to
control my bgs, etc, my disease would get worse, but by controlling my
disease has not progressed for what is, at this time a third of my life
adn I hope to continue like this as long as my mind stays flexible and
able to help me control my eating, etc. Most endos do not see many like
us. I know that mine is very pleased and I get the feeling that I am
unique in his practice. He no longer really looks at my bg record book ,
except cursorily and I often point to small issues like an unexpected hig
pp and he just is not worried because the full picture is so good. I am
not a reak and neither are those of us here who do manage to keep our bg
control and have not progressed.

Gordon, I hope you find your way of controlling your particular case of
diabetes so you too an enjoy all the good years ahead of you. After all,
we are both of an age and both look forward to more exciting years.
Yesterday I renewed my symphony subscription for next year. I am hoping
to do some travelling, walker and all etc. I found my solution which is
not exactly like anyone else's preferring to use some metformin in order
to be able to eat a bit more flexibly without increaseing bgs. Now if I
could only get some more of that d--ned weight off.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:

Gordon,

You want to have good control even if you cannot get all the answers you
feel you need. You don't want to wait until your education is complete
before you work to gain control that is why we keep saying make your
study a hobby rather than a prerequisite for trying diet changes, etc.
As you were so successful losing weight on Atkins and found that 50 grams
aof carb a day worked well. If you can do tht without further weight
loss, fine. If not, try Atkins method for slowing increaseing carbs until
you are weight stable and stay ther. Of ourse, yu do hav eto also be
measuring your bgs for diabetes control. You also need to find the times
of day you can eat more carbs, as well as hose where you must eat fewer.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: On 29 Feb 2012 15:26:19 GMT, ray <r...@zianet.com> wrote:

: >On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:19:48 -0600, Antares 531 wrote:
: >
: >
: >A few comments:
: >
: >108 and 140 are significantly different.
: >
: >I haven't had a breakfast like that since I was diagnosed. My normal
: >breakfast (6 days a week) is two eggs, two slices bacon, 1/2 small
: >grapefruit (in season - no sugar), 1/2 double fiber English muffin.
: >
: >In his book, 'Diabetes Solution', Dr. Richard Bernstein (who has been a
: >type 1 for over 60 years) advocates a diet with 30 grams of carbs daily
: >for his type two patients. I normally run between about 30 and 50. I
: >think you'll find that you significantly exceed that total with breakfast.
: >
: >The combination of oral meds, exercise and a low carb diet keeps me in
: >good numbers - FBG this morning was 88.
: >
: Ray, thanks for your insights. I don't disagree with anything you've
: said, but I think that since I'm pre-diabetic or early stages type 2
: and you are mature type 1, we have to march to a different drummer, so
: to speak.

: According to my doctor, my pancreas' beta cells are still in good
: health and produce all the insulin I need, but my body's cells are not
: responding very well to the insulin/glucose that is in my blood. I'm
: trying to understand what has my body's cells clogged up such that
: they can't respond to the insulin/glucose that is available in my
: blood. Obviously, something in these body cells' insulin receptors
: and/or glucose portals is out of tune or perhaps blocked by something
: such as the residue from artificial sweeteners or flavoring agents
: that I've eaten in the past.

: Eating protein and fats (natural mono or unsaturated) seems to help my
: body cells take up the glucose from my blood. Don't know why but I've
: tested and re-tested this and it works every time.

: Gordon

FYI Ray is a tpe 2 on modest medication.

Wendy

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:48:07 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>
wrote:

This is very true but I am already doing all I can in the way of diet
and exercise regimen. I just keep hoping I will stumble onto something
like taking Alpha Lipoic Acid capsules that will do a lot more to
stabilize my condition than I can ever hope to do by diet and
exercise.

The ALA or maybe it is the GTF Chromium Polynicotinate meds seem to
have helped my BG readings a lot.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:41:05 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>
wrote:
>
<snip>

>
>: True but every Endo. I have seen has told me it is progressive.
>
>I know that is the accepted wisdom, but many o us rather anal diabetic on
>this newsgroup and ASD have found that by controlling our bgs and A1c's by
>diet, exercise and meds and/or supplements we have staved off an
>progression for many years. i assume that were I to lose my ability to
>control my bgs, etc, my disease would get worse, but by controlling my
>disease has not progressed for what is, at this time a third of my life
>adn I hope to continue like this as long as my mind stays flexible and
>able to help me control my eating, etc. Most endos do not see many like
>us. I know that mine is very pleased and I get the feeling that I am
>unique in his practice. He no longer really looks at my bg record book ,
>except cursorily and I often point to small issues like an unexpected hig
>pp and he just is not worried because the full picture is so good. I am
>not a reak and neither are those of us here who do manage to keep our bg
>control and have not progressed.
>
>Gordon, I hope you find your way of controlling your particular case of
>diabetes so you too an enjoy all the good years ahead of you. After all,
>we are both of an age and both look forward to more exciting years.
>Yesterday I renewed my symphony subscription for next year. I am hoping
>to do some travelling, walker and all etc. I found my solution which is
>not exactly like anyone else's preferring to use some metformin in order
>to be able to eat a bit more flexibly without increaseing bgs. Now if I
>could only get some more of that d--ned weight off.
>
>Wendy
>

Wendy, have you tried the Dr. Atkins diet? If you can stick with a
very tight carb limitation of around 45 gms per day you will lose
weight. And while doing this you can eat all the protein and fats you
want/need to satisfy your hunger. No suffering through starvation as
one sometimes has to do when trying to follow a calorie based diet.
Forget the calories, just limit the carb intake to less than 50 gm per
day, preferably less than 45 gms per day and you will shed lots of
weight, quickly, and you will feel good while doing it.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 10:04:46 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>

>On 3/2/2012 9:43 AM, Antares 531 wrote:
>
>> Susan, you are indeed fortunate in that the exact cause/effect process
>> for your condition was very closely identified and you were able to
>> make the necessary corrections/adaptations to your diet and lifestyle.
>

>Not fortunate, and it was never closely identified. I got myself a
>meter after researching some other health issue I was having. And it was
>many years later when the role of cortisol in my diabetes came to light,
>again, not any help from any doctors, just my own research.
>
>Using my meter to guide my carb levels and choices is what got me under
>control without knowing what was causing my diabetes, and quickly
>reversed long standing kidney and nerve damage.

>
>
>> I hope to be able to do the same, but I need to learn more about the
>> exact cause/effect associated with my specific case. Everyone marches
>> to a different drummer, or something like that.
>

>Whatever floats your boat. You don't need to learn that to get control,
>but apparently to satisfy some other needs.
>
>Susan
>
Susan, I'm going the same route you seem to have followed. I do take
my BG readings several times per day and I keep a log of all the foods
I eat. I try to restrict my carb intake to only those slow carbs that
are really necessary for my digestive system (roughage) while
abstaining from all forms of fast carbs such as white sugar, potatoes,
etc.

I do make an excursion away from this tight restriction on fast carbs
from time to time to see if the effect is what I've been expecting. I
still can't figure out how/why I can eat a big breakfast with two
white flour biscuits slathered with white flour gravy, then not have
any significant BG spike afterward. I have only my normal postprandial
BG spike, just like I have with all my low carb meals...usually below
the 140 mg/dL upper limit.

And I still haven't figured out why a low carb meal sometimes sends me
up as high as 180 mg/dL or more???

Gordon

[Cindy Wells]

On 3/2/2012 11:54 AM, Antares 531 wrote:

> And I still haven't figured out why a low carb meal sometimes sends me
> up as high as 180 mg/dL or more???
>

There are a number of possibilities:
1) There are "hidden" carbs that you don't recognize. (Sauces, salad
dressings are really good for this. Stir-fry dishes, for example, can
have a lot of carbohydrates.)

2) It was so low in carbohydrates that your system decided to release
stored glycogen. (If your system was already looking for extra carbs,
this is plausible.)

3) A slow-carb finally hit your blood stream from a previous snack or meal.

4) You've got an unidentified illness and your blood glucose level has
nothing to do with the meal.

5) It's just a bad meal for you.

> Gordon

Cindy Wells
(without any other data, I'd go with option 5 and skip that meal for a
while. You might try it again in a while just to check if there was
something else happening. You shouldn't bother to retest this tomorrow
or even this month though, unless you have reason to believe it was a
fluke.)

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 14:18:05 -0500, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>

>On 3/2/2012 12:54 PM, Antares 531 wrote:
> I
>> still can't figure out how/why I can eat a big breakfast with two
>> white flour biscuits slathered with white flour gravy, then not have
>> any significant BG spike afterward. I have only my normal postprandial
>> BG spike, just like I have with all my low carb meals...usually below
>> the 140 mg/dL upper limit.
>>
>> And I still haven't figured out why a low carb meal sometimes sends me
>> up as high as 180 mg/dL or more???
>

>You should have your serum, salivary and urinary cortisol checked at
>least 5 times each.
>
>At 8 a.m., 4 p.m. and midnight for serum and saliva.
>
>I say that because reversal of diurnal rhythm (higher a.m. than p.m.) is
>a hallmark of Cushing's and subclinical hypercortisolemia, which is an
>overlooked cause of many cases of type 2 DM.
>
>Susan
>
Thanks, Susan. I've printed the Wikipedia information on this and will
study it. I don't have an appointment scheduled with my doctor, soon,
but if this looks like it fits my situation I may make an earlier
appointment.

The first thing that caught my attention was the Signs and Symptoms
part that mention rapid weight gain, etc. I have none of these
symptoms, but maybe they don't always apply.

Gordon

[Antares 531]

It's a really complex bunch of overlapping things and I may not ever
get it figured out, but at least I'll keep trying. Thanks for your
suggestions and insights.

I do log my meal ingredients, but, as you say, some of these things
have a super carb or other such ingredient hidden within the
"ingredients" list.

Gordon

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:41:05 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>

I have wanted to go there, but my endo advised against it"to be on tth
safe side with my kidneys." I eat a rather modified verion that holds my
bgs well, but doesn't seem to help my weight. cheese seems to do bad
things for my weght and is hard for me to not eat as it doesn't raise my
bgs:-(

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:

That biscuit breakfsst in the hourly report you made no only took you
fairly high but kept you there for several hours which may well be causign
damage, well beyond what happens with a short spike.

Wendy

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:07:47 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>
wrote:

This has me puzzled, too. I can't figure out why my morning 1.5 hour
postprandial readings are usually quite acceptable but my after lunch
readings are often very high, even though I didn't eat anything with
fast carbs or lots of slow carbs in it.

Today Shari fixed some little meatballs made with both pork and beef.
These were smothered with some mozzarella cheese and served with
zucchini, peppers, onions & mushrooms. I had a side dish of cottage
cheese, covered with a very small serving of canned peach pieces.

My 1.5 hour after lunch reading was 153. That isn't extreme but I
wonder what bumped it up that high?

Gordon

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:05:00 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>

>I have wanted to go there, but my endo advised against it"to be on the

>safe side with my kidneys." I eat a rather modified verion that holds my
>bgs well, but doesn't seem to help my weight. cheese seems to do bad
>things for my weght and is hard for me to not eat as it doesn't raise my
>bgs:-(
>
>Wendy
>

Your Endo may have been concerned that you might escalate into
Ketoacidosis. I think this is a problem only with T1 diabetics, but I
may be wrong on this.

I like to nibble on cheese curds from time to time as a between meals
snack, but I rarely eat more than two or three of those curd pieces at
a time.

Gordon

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: >: >

: >: Wendy, have you tried the Dr. Atkins diet? If you can stick with a
: >: very tight carb limitation of around 45 gms per day you will lose
: >: weight. And while doing this you can eat all the protein and fats you
: >: want/need to satisfy your hunger. No suffering through starvation as
: >: one sometimes has to do when trying to follow a calorie based diet.
: >: Forget the calories, just limit the carb intake to less than 50 gm per
: >: day, preferably less than 45 gms per day and you will shed lots of
: >: weight, quickly, and you will feel good while doing it.
: >
: >: Gordon
: >
: >I have wanted to go there, but my endo advised against it"to be on the
: >safe side with my kidneys." I eat a rather modified verion that holds my
: >bgs well, but doesn't seem to help my weight. cheese seems to do bad
: >things for my weght and is hard for me to not eat as it doesn't raise my
: >bgs:-(
: >
: >Wendy
: >
: Your Endo may have been concerned that you might escalate into
: Ketoacidosis. I think this is a problem only with T1 diabetics, but I
: may be wrong on this.

: I like to nibble on cheese curds from time to time as a between meals
: snack, but I rarely eat more than two or three of those curd pieces at
: a time.

: Gordon

No we all know he difference between ketoacidosis and ketosis and that
thelatter is not a problem. No this is kidney strain with too much
protein. I know that susan does not agree with this , but I have faith in
my endo and really don't wantto play games of cross him. He is a
bend-over-backwards conservative man and wants to see me continue to
succeeed in living with this diease, so I go along even if not sure he is
correct in this particular analysis. My opthamologist has had great
success with Atkins, but is not diabetic, so we swap clow carb recipes
when I come for treatment.

Wendy

[W. Baker]

Do you test right before lunch? If you are much over 100 cut back on the
next meal carbs, like skip the peaches and possibly the cottage cheese.
What are ou right before your supper(you seem to eat your bid meal
midday). Adjust your meal carbs to tht number too, adding if you like and
continue to not gain weight, some protein and low carb veggies, raw or
cooked.

I am not saying these wll all work but they may help, particularly usign
the BEFORE meal number to set your meal levels. It can be a PITA, but
over time will prove to be worth it. I ued the before meals , 1 our after
and 2 hours after for my original testing to find my eating pattern. If
you are higher at 2 hours than 1, check again at 3 and until you start
going down. Uses lots of strips, but it shouldn't be forever.


Wendy

[Antares 531]

On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:36:29 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>
wrote:

My mid-morning and on to my before lunch BG readings are usually
satisfactorily low...usually in the 100ą10 mg/dL range. I have a
problem with my early morning fasting reading and with my
mid-afternoon on into evening readings.

But, it's my 1.5 hour after lunch reading that sometimes breaks out
above 140 mg/dL It was 151 mg/dL yesterday and 153 mg/dL today. That
one high after lunch reading each day is all that aren't below the 140
mg/dL limit.

My breakfast meals are usually quite sumptuous as are my noon meals
but I go with a very minimal, high protein evening meal, in the hopes
of controlling my Dawn Effect spike the next morning. That morning
fasting reading should not go above 120 mg/dL but sometimes it will be
in the lower 140s range.

Gordon

[W. Baker]

Antares 531 <gordonl...@swbell.net> wrote:
: On Fri, 2 Mar 2012 21:36:29 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com>

: satisfactorily low...usually in the 100?10 mg/dL range. I have a

: problem with my early morning fasting reading and with my
: mid-afternoon on into evening readings.

: But, it's my 1.5 hour after lunch reading that sometimes breaks out
: above 140 mg/dL It was 151 mg/dL yesterday and 153 mg/dL today. That
: one high after lunch reading each day is all that aren't below the 140
: mg/dL limit.

: My breakfast meals are usually quite sumptuous as are my noon meals
: but I go with a very minimal, high protein evening meal, in the hopes
: of controlling my Dawn Effect spike the next morning. That morning
: fasting reading should not go above 120 mg/dL but sometimes it will be
: in the lower 140s range.

: Gordon

If you are at 110 then it is only 30 to 140, not a huge rise. it is
better to be below 100 before meals and below 100 for fbg. eye damage
begins at somehwere near or approaching 110, so that 120 for you aim is
not good for your eyes. of course, it is better than 180!. I don't see
you approaching a hypo at any time so I wonder at your doctor fearing a
small dose at night. I would think that 1/2mg at bedtune might work well.
My endo, as i said, a conservative man, wants me below 100 in the AM and
put meon the glimperide many years ago rather than hve me going crazy
trying to find some way to get the number down. There is no sind in
using a bit of medicaion, not Macho bonus to struggling.

I ask you again, are you seeing an Endo or just your regular MD?

Wendy

[Cindy Wells]

On 3/2/2012 2:04 PM, Antares 531 wrote:

> I do log my meal ingredients, but, as you say, some of these things
> have a super carb or other such ingredient hidden within the
> "ingredients" list.
>

That's why I look at the nutrition facts panel on the side (back) of all
prepared foods and ingredients from a store. For all other foods, I
check the Book of Food Counts or the restaurant's nutrition information
lists. At least once, I was visiting a relative and was trying a new
food from a local deli (no nutritional breakdown). I called another
family member and asked them to check the copy of Food Counts for me.
Then I knew what serving size to try first and then I could adjust based
on the meter readings.

> Gordon

Cindy Wells
(When I first went through the diet and what works, I carried the Book
of Food Counts on all trips. Later on, I didn't always pack it.)

[Cindy Wells]

On 3/2/2012 3:11 PM, Antares 531 wrote:

> Today Shari fixed some little meatballs made with both pork and beef.
> These were smothered with some mozzarella cheese and served with

> zucchini, peppers, onions& mushrooms. I had a side dish of cottage

> cheese, covered with a very small serving of canned peach pieces.

Meatballs often have bread or bread crumbs in the recipe. Other recipes
will include milk, cheese and tomato sauce. The serving size of the
zucchini, peppers, onions and mushrooms also matters if they were cooked
down. Various meatball entrees (from the frozen food aisle) will have
between 20-40 grams of carbohydrates. The mozzarella has about 1 g of
carbohydrates from the lactose per serving. The cottage cheese has 4 g
of carbohydrates per 4 oz serving. Then you have the canned peaches.
Consider whether these were canned in water, fruit juice, light or extra
heavy syrup. A fresh peach cut up will give 9.4 g of carbohydrates per
1/2 cup. If it was in fruit juice or syrup, you could easily see the
carbohydrates go up to 35 g per 1/2 cup serving. That adds up to a meal
with at between 50 g to 80 g of carbohydrates.

>
> My 1.5 hour after lunch reading was 153. That isn't extreme but I
> wonder what bumped it up that high?
>

See above. Additionally, some people just can't have a food even if the
carbohydrate count is exactly the same as another that they can have.

> Gordon

Cindy Wells

[Antares 531]

There are a lot of unknowns and guestimates concerning the carb count
in some of the foods Shari prepares for us. She bought the meatballs
at a local BestBuy store and I don't think there was a food label.

What would be a reasonable and prudent level of carb intake per meal
for me? I have been going along with the idea that a total per meal of
less than 50 gms would be okay but this may be too high.

Gordon