Yuval Harari on India's Caste hierarchy myths, in his book 'Sapiens', a NYTimes Bestseller
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Bala
Feb 15, 2018, 12:00:24 PM2/15/18
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Sapiens by Yuval Harari is a New York Times Bestseller, and widely recommended by many thought-leaders from across the world.
Interestingly he's an active Vipassana meditation practitioner.
You can find his TED talk on 'Why humans run the world' i.e. 'What explains the rise of humans?' here (in English with subtitles).
Excerpts from his book:
Chapter 8: There is No Justice in History
Chapter 8: There is No Justice in History
Note: These snapshots are that of different parts in Chapter 08.
I'd suggest one to read the full chapter/book to fully understand the context in which this specific narrative appears.
Bala
Feb 15, 2018, 2:44:44 PM2/15/18
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More detailed discussion on Hierarchy-myths can be found in Coursera course A Brief History of Humankind by Dr. Yuval Noah Harari.
[ jump to 03:40 to start watching India specific part ]
N. Ganesan
Feb 15, 2018, 8:42:37 PM2/15/18
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On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 9:00:24 AM UTC-8, Bala wrote:
Sapiens by Yuval Harari is a New York Times Bestseller, and widely recommended by many thought-leaders from across the world.
Interestingly he's an active Vipassana meditation practitioner.
You can find his TED talk on 'Why humans run the world' i.e. 'What explains the rise of humans?' here (in English with subtitles).
Thanks for introducing the book on Humans by Harari.
தரவிறக்க:
இன்னும் சில நாள்களே இருக்கும். 6.6 எம்பி.
நா. கணேசன்
Bala
Feb 15, 2018, 11:35:44 PM2/15/18
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Yuval Harari has in fact covered this as caste - subcaste phenomenon in his book
Only thing is he has used the word 'caste', a word easily understood by English speakers, to explain ancient 'varna' from ancient Indian scriptures.
His book spans tens of thousand years of humanity - he'll do well to focus on essence more than technical-accuracies, else he'd miss the forest for the trees :)
In fact, as time went by, large castes were divided into sub-castes. Eventually the original four castes turned into 3,000 different groupings called jati (literally ‘birth’). But this proliferation of castes did not change the basic principle of the system, according to which every person is born into a particular rank, and any infringement of its rules pollutes the person and society as a whole. A persons jati determines her profession, the food she can eat, her place of residence and her eligible marriage partners. Usually a person can marry only within his or her caste, and the resulting children inherit that status.
செல்வன்
Feb 16, 2018, 12:25:29 AM2/16/18
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One has to be very careful when they use words in academic books.
You cannot cite ignorance of audience as a reason to misuse a word. If western audience dont know the difference between caste and varna they need to be educated
Caste is completely different from Varna system he explains here.....Castes existed long before Aryans came here, castes exist in lands all over the world that are untouched by Aryans. Tamil castes like panan, kadamban, thudiyan etc were native to the land. Aryans did not create them,...
This book creates a misrepresentation as if Aryans created the entire caste system...that is completely false. Castes existed long back...Aryans created the hierarchies between castes.."This is upper caste, this is lower...you are brahmin, you are sudhra" etc
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Bala
Feb 16, 2018, 1:30:59 AM2/16/18
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Tamil castes like panan, kadamban, thudiyan etc were native to the land. Aryans did not create them,...This book creates a misrepresentation as if Aryans created the entire caste system...that is completely false
Like I pointed out already, the objective of the chapter 'There is No Justice in History' is to elucidate how some people manipulated/exploited others by citing deceitful-natural-hierarchies in mythical scriptures.
I'm sure a Tamilian after reading this part, can see the exploitative hierarchies of varna system, while still recognizing that divisions in ancient Tamil society were self-evolved and that of convenience (with no hierarchies codified in scriptures)
The words author had used are to be seen merely as notional English labels, to drive home the larger point on human-created hierarchies.
Of course, one can indulge in wishful bashing, harking over English definitions, to reject things.
After all, on English definitions/labels, I heard an extraordinary logic from you just a few days ago, to back the assertion you made that Paleo = Keto
This is pointless. Medical journals will only use medical name, keto. why should they use a non-medical name (Paleo)?Non-medical term will only be used when communicating with non-medical people.
On Friday, 16 February 2018 10:55:29 UTC+5:30, செல்வன் wrote:
One has to be very careful when they use words in academic books.You cannot cite ignorance of audience as a reason to misuse a word. If western audience dont know the difference between caste and varna they need to be educatedCaste is completely different from Varna system he explains here.....Castes existed long before Aryans came here, castes exist in lands all over the world that are untouched by Aryans. Tamil castes like panan, kadamban, thudiyan etc were native to the land. Aryans did not create them,...This book creates a misrepresentation as if Aryans created the entire caste system...that is completely false. Castes existed long back...Aryans created the hierarchies between castes.."This is upper caste, this is lower...you are brahmin, you are sudhra" etc
On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 10:35 PM, Bala <bala...@gmail.com> wrote:
--Yuval Harari has in fact covered this as caste - subcaste phenomenon in his bookOnly thing is he has used the word 'caste', a word easily understood by English speakers, to explain ancient 'varna' from ancient Indian scriptures.His book spans tens of thousand years of humanity - he'll do well to focus on essence more than technical-accuracies, else he'd miss the forest for the trees :)In fact, as time went by, large castes were divided into sub-castes. Eventually the original four castes turned into 3,000 different groupings called jati (literally ‘birth’). But this proliferation of castes did not change the basic principle of the system, according to which every person is born into a particular rank, and any infringement of its rules pollutes the person and society as a whole. A persons jati determines her profession, the food she can eat, her place of residence and her eligible marriage partners. Usually a person can marry only within his or her caste, and the resulting children inherit that status.
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செல்வன்
Feb 16, 2018, 1:37:00 AM2/16/18
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On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:31 AM Bala <bala...@gmail.com> wrote:
Tamil castes like panan, kadamban, thudiyan etc were native to the land. Aryans did not create them,...This book creates a misrepresentation as if Aryans created the entire caste system...that is completely false
Like I pointed out already, the objective of the chapter 'There is No Justice in History' is to elucidate how some people manipulated/exploited others by citing deceitful-natural-hierarchies in mythical scriptures.
*****I'm sure a Tamilian after reading this part, can see the exploitative hierarchies of varna system, while still recognizing that divisions in ancient Tamil society were self-evolved and that of convenience (with no hierarchies codified in scriptures)*****
Exactly...a TamiIan will understand this. Would a westerner understand this? Is this described in the book? That was my point...thanks for proving my point
The words author had used are to be seen merely as notional English labels, to drive home the larger point on human-created hierarchies.Of course, one can indulge in wishful bashing, harking over English definitions, to reject things.
Nopes...that is called debate...academic authors should welcome debates and comments. Not run away from them
--
Bala
Feb 16, 2018, 6:49:42 AM2/16/18
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The average Dalit woman in India dies 14.6 years younger than women from higher castes. While identities, perceived or real, can increase risks of discrimination for an individual or a group, a woman’s caste in India increases her exposure to mortality because of poor sanitation and inadequate healthcare, says a UN report released on late Wednesday night.
... The report also points to how in India a young woman aged 20–24 from a poor, rural household is 21.8 times less likely to ever attend school than one from a rich urban household, five times more likely to marry before the age of 18 and 5.8 times as likely to become an adolescent mother.
“The likelihood of being poor is greater if she is landless and from a scheduled caste. Her low level of education and status in the social hierarchy will almost guarantee that if she works for pay, it will be under exploitative working conditions,” the report states.
... Suggesting a way out, the report says strategies to leave no one behind should aim to create a sense of solidarity through risk-sharing, redistribution and universal services. “Where all citizens reap clear benefits from such services, their willingness to contribute to funding them through progressive taxation is also likely to increase,” it says.
N. Ganesan
Feb 16, 2018, 9:13:41 AM2/16/18
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On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 8:35:44 PM UTC-8, Bala wrote:
Yuval Harari has in fact covered this as caste - subcaste phenomenon in his bookOnly thing is he has used the word 'caste', a word easily understood by English speakers, to explain ancient 'varna' from ancient Indian scriptures.His book spans tens of thousand years of humanity - he'll do well to focus on essence more than technical-accuracies, else he'd miss the forest for the trees :)In fact, as time went by, large castes were divided into sub-castes. Eventually the original four castes turned into 3,000 different groupings called jati (literally ‘birth’). But this proliferation of castes did not change the basic principle of the system, according to which every person is born into a particular rank, and any infringement of its rules pollutes the person and society as a whole. A persons jati determines her profession, the food she can eat, her place of residence and her eligible marriage partners. Usually a person can marry only within his or her caste, and the resulting children inherit that status.
I think Selvan is correct. There is quite a bit of difference between Varna vs. Jaati in India. Varna is found in many societies & especially in Indo-European societies with tripartite division.
Those who do not fit into this Varna system were classified as Shuudra-s, the Fourth Varna. Jaati hierarhy is unique to India in its growth. While preliminary divisions are found elsewhere,
there is a Dravidian component to Jaati hierarchy in India.
This Dravidian component is very visible in ancient Dravdian texts - ie., Sangam texts, the oldest among all of Dravidian language family & records several native concepts not found in Vedic literature -
One such important concept is aNangu, explained by Tamil professors in detail. The native priestly functions resided with lower end of the Jaati spectrum such as ampaTTanaar, ampaNavanaar (PaaNan - ViRali pairs),
antaNan-s.
While quickly going thru' the book, Sapiens, by the Jewish professor from Israel, I get the impression that it is good for humankind's history of 70,000 years.
But the author seems to have very little knowledge of India's complex history, its jaati-s and varNa-s. His mention of varNa origins touches the surface only.
Also, he seems not to mention Indus valley civilization at all. Probably he has not read any. For example, the animal (e.g., Zebu cattle, elephants, ...)
domestication and plants being domesticated there is misssing in his whole book. He seems to mention dry grain cultivation in the Deccan
(for example, he must have studied some news on Cambridge Univ. archaeologist Nicole Boivin in Karnataka, e.g., kupgallu ashmounds ....)
I posted on yaaLi word origins in FB collaayvu group:
The mythical animal comes in later Sangam texts, as "aNaGkuTai yaaLi" - written perhaps around 4th century CE - and then the leonine creature
myths develop in texts and arts. aNaGku is "afflicting power" that is possessed by spirits and controlled by priests from lower rungs of
caste (jaati) society in India. Sangam texts are just a pointer to what was happening in the hierarchical forms of Indian farming societies for
1000s of years.
ஜாதி உருவாக்கத்தில் எல்லாப் பழியும் ஆர்யர்கள் மீது சுமத்த முடியாது, த்ராவிட ஜனங்களுக்கும்
கணிசமான பங்குண்டு. நம்மாழ்வார் அணங்குடை சக்திகள், வழிபாடுகள் பற்றி விரிவாகப் பாடியுள்ளார்.
பிற பின்!
நா. கணேசன்
Bala
Feb 17, 2018, 12:13:29 AM2/17/18
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While quickly going thru' the book, Sapiens, by the Jewish professor from Israel, I get the impression that it is good for humankind's history of 70,000 years.But the author seems to have very little knowledge of India's complex history, its jaati-s and varNa-s. His mention of varNa origins touches the surface only.Also, he seems not to mention Indus valley civilization at all. Probably he has not read any.
Given the topic in hand, Homo sapiens evolution till date, and the enormous diversity of India, I don't know whether any depth (spanning not more than 3-4 pages) would have proved adequate to every possible reader. I'm sure, even the books which set out exclusively to study caste-divisions in India, would be inadequate in some way or other: our country's diversity is such thanks to continuous migrations to the fertile land :)
In Sapiens, I think he has picked from high impact social injustices in erstwhile Indian subcontinent, of which four-tier hierarchical system - codified in Manu Smriti, Rig Veda Purusha Sukta and many verses in Bhagavad Gita - is one.
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