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Re: Clone Space
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Greegor
Nov 28, 2012, 3:16:10 PM11/28/12
to
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/browse_frm/thread/d144d8af6c69d720?hl=en#
I use WinXP Pro updated to SP3 with every update
and it takes up about 8.9 GB when new and expands
to 12.5 GB after a year of use, because of restore
points, uninstall files, installed programs like
Microsoft Security Essentials (virus scanner),
Adobe reader,Flash, SW Player
Java and DirectX ( Is there a DirectX newer than 9.0c? )
etc.
I use either 15 GB or 20 GB for First and Last partitions and
all of the rest is one huge DATA drive.
If somebody gets a Virus or gets infested with a browser
hack or a bad Microsoft install, it only takes 1/2 hour
for XXClone (free) to clone from Fisrt to Last or
(if you boot from Last, to clone from there) to the
first partition (C:) to re-virginize the boot.
90% of the time people reinstall or clone a boot
it is NOT because a disk drive DIED, but because
they tangled up in a virus, browser hack or
another Microsoft update disaster.
(Like an Aug 2012 MSE update which tried to
uninstall the old MSE, but the old MSE had
broken uninstall files compliments of Microsoft.)
I've been lucky though, that the last few virii
my SO downloaded did NOT infected the
Last partition though!
That CAN happen, or the drive can die of course.
(That's why you want a backup image cloned
onto a detached drive and put away. I use
one of my old drives with 20GB or more and
make it bootable as well. For "last ditch"
situations that DO arise. )
An image clone to USB may or may not be
bootable, and even if your main drive uses a
SATA interface (And SW SATA drivers) an image
of that placed onto an IDE or USB might not
be bootable because of driver differences.
The drivers for SATA / IDE / USB external / USB Flash
are not all the same and the differences can
cometimes trip you up.
Not a problem for the ( First/DATA/Last ) setup
clone operations booting, but you need to overcome
those differences to make the necessary
detached clone backup.
If you've got a SATA drive, the best (and fastest)
detacheable backup drive is another SATA drive
temporarily hooked up to the second port on the
same SATA controller.
Some computers only have one SATA hardware port.
An add-in card to get a 2nd SATA port might work for
cloning but I wouldn't guarantee it because many
add in SATA ports are NOT bootable.
I have a situation myself where the mainboards I
use have only one SATA connector actually
populated and the second SATA port is there
on the same controller chip, and the BIOS
actually supports a second SATA port/drive.
One of these days I will ( carefully! ) solder
a second SATA connector onto one main board.
Not for amateurs.
I'd rig an outside power supply and all because
an outside SATA drive on the SAME controller
chip looks like an ideal recipe for bootable clones.
A system that can boot from an eSATA
(external SATA) drive would be good for this.
I tried the image file route, I actually LIKED
Ghost back in the Win98SE days but it's
not free, and image files take a bit longer
(packing to proprietary format) and are not
bootable.
A few of the freebie image file programs I
tried were rediculously SLOW!
There is another tricky wrinkle:
Some SATA ports on computers are set so
they act like the older IDE type of drive
so that software sees them as IDE drives.
It's an old "legacy" support thing that is
fading in popularity, but meant that the
Windows system didn't need a SATA
driver because Windows sees the SATA
drive as an IDE drive. (Not as fast maybe?)
A cloned system parition is more useful than
Glen thinks it is, and it's certainly better than
no backup of the system. Most of the time you
need to "re-virginize" the boot partition, cloning
from the "Last" partition is fabulous.
Yes, the occasional "last ditch" situation means
you really should make a detached, put away
drive with a cloned partition and make sure it's bootable.
The drivers, MBR and Bootsector stuff can cause
some technical wrinkles but I hope I explained
those well enough to help.
I run 5 Dell GX-280 SDT machines with 0g8310
main boards (intentionally matched), 3.4 GHz processors,
2 Gigs of RAM and 160 GB SATA drives with
OEM WinXP Pro updated to SP3.
I got them for about $125 each "off lease" through eBay.
Dell sold tens of thousands of this make and model.
I've also got one that got bounced in shipping and
is now a parts donor, but I'll probably buy two
more to have whole systems as backups.
The bootable cloning stuff works easier
if your source and destination drives are
of the same type, not crossing from
IDE to SATA or vice versa.
What are your system specs OldGuy?
Does your main drive have a SATA or IDE
hardware interface? Is there a connector
or cable for a second SATA off the same
controller?
If I was partitioning your 200 GB I would start
by partitioning a very generous 20 Gigs for
First and Last and let the rest be a DATA partition.
In round numbers:
20000
160000
20000
Except that hard disk allocation is not
in those nice round numbers..
(Blame binary arithmetic, computer math.)
I use the install CD to partition, because
it is the "official" way to format for Windows.
Backup your Product Key and all software
and then delete all partitions or use a new
drive with none to begin with.
For the first partition type in 20000 (20 GB)
and look for the number it gets translated to
in terms of the hard disk. Not an even 20000.
Then I enter that number to do a second partition
of that exact same (translated) size.
Write down the exact digits for the remaining big chunk.
Then I delete the second partition and make
a second partition of that big size.
The remainder should be the exact same
translated size as the first one.
Don't forget to enter that to make the third (Last)
partition exactly the same size as the First.
I usually make a little tag with the translated
numbers and tape them to the drive so I don't
mark directly on the drive.
Something like:
20123
159123
20123
( but based on the translated numbers from
the method above )
And then point the installer CD to the First
partition to install to the First partition.
After it's booting OK without the CD, go into..
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Administrative Tools
> Computer Management > Disk Management
(Right click on the partition you want and select format
for the middle and Last partition.)
Label the three partitions First, DATA and Last to help
keep them straight for cloning operations.
(Makes booting on Last a whole lot less confusing
because it swaps First and Last in order to do that.)
Tinker with First until it's the way you like it then
clone from First partition to the Last partition.
In XXClone don't forget to run it again to get
access to "Cool Tools" to make the drive
fully bootable or set the system up with a menu
to be dual bootable.
It uses Microsoft's own multi boot menus.
I hope it helps!
I use WinXP Pro updated to SP3 with every update
and it takes up about 8.9 GB when new and expands
to 12.5 GB after a year of use, because of restore
points, uninstall files, installed programs like
Microsoft Security Essentials (virus scanner),
Adobe reader,Flash, SW Player
Java and DirectX ( Is there a DirectX newer than 9.0c? )
etc.
I use either 15 GB or 20 GB for First and Last partitions and
all of the rest is one huge DATA drive.
If somebody gets a Virus or gets infested with a browser
hack or a bad Microsoft install, it only takes 1/2 hour
for XXClone (free) to clone from Fisrt to Last or
(if you boot from Last, to clone from there) to the
first partition (C:) to re-virginize the boot.
90% of the time people reinstall or clone a boot
it is NOT because a disk drive DIED, but because
they tangled up in a virus, browser hack or
another Microsoft update disaster.
(Like an Aug 2012 MSE update which tried to
uninstall the old MSE, but the old MSE had
broken uninstall files compliments of Microsoft.)
I've been lucky though, that the last few virii
my SO downloaded did NOT infected the
Last partition though!
That CAN happen, or the drive can die of course.
(That's why you want a backup image cloned
onto a detached drive and put away. I use
one of my old drives with 20GB or more and
make it bootable as well. For "last ditch"
situations that DO arise. )
An image clone to USB may or may not be
bootable, and even if your main drive uses a
SATA interface (And SW SATA drivers) an image
of that placed onto an IDE or USB might not
be bootable because of driver differences.
The drivers for SATA / IDE / USB external / USB Flash
are not all the same and the differences can
cometimes trip you up.
Not a problem for the ( First/DATA/Last ) setup
clone operations booting, but you need to overcome
those differences to make the necessary
detached clone backup.
If you've got a SATA drive, the best (and fastest)
detacheable backup drive is another SATA drive
temporarily hooked up to the second port on the
same SATA controller.
Some computers only have one SATA hardware port.
An add-in card to get a 2nd SATA port might work for
cloning but I wouldn't guarantee it because many
add in SATA ports are NOT bootable.
I have a situation myself where the mainboards I
use have only one SATA connector actually
populated and the second SATA port is there
on the same controller chip, and the BIOS
actually supports a second SATA port/drive.
One of these days I will ( carefully! ) solder
a second SATA connector onto one main board.
Not for amateurs.
I'd rig an outside power supply and all because
an outside SATA drive on the SAME controller
chip looks like an ideal recipe for bootable clones.
A system that can boot from an eSATA
(external SATA) drive would be good for this.
I tried the image file route, I actually LIKED
Ghost back in the Win98SE days but it's
not free, and image files take a bit longer
(packing to proprietary format) and are not
bootable.
A few of the freebie image file programs I
tried were rediculously SLOW!
There is another tricky wrinkle:
Some SATA ports on computers are set so
they act like the older IDE type of drive
so that software sees them as IDE drives.
It's an old "legacy" support thing that is
fading in popularity, but meant that the
Windows system didn't need a SATA
driver because Windows sees the SATA
drive as an IDE drive. (Not as fast maybe?)
A cloned system parition is more useful than
Glen thinks it is, and it's certainly better than
no backup of the system. Most of the time you
need to "re-virginize" the boot partition, cloning
from the "Last" partition is fabulous.
Yes, the occasional "last ditch" situation means
you really should make a detached, put away
drive with a cloned partition and make sure it's bootable.
The drivers, MBR and Bootsector stuff can cause
some technical wrinkles but I hope I explained
those well enough to help.
I run 5 Dell GX-280 SDT machines with 0g8310
main boards (intentionally matched), 3.4 GHz processors,
2 Gigs of RAM and 160 GB SATA drives with
OEM WinXP Pro updated to SP3.
I got them for about $125 each "off lease" through eBay.
Dell sold tens of thousands of this make and model.
I've also got one that got bounced in shipping and
is now a parts donor, but I'll probably buy two
more to have whole systems as backups.
The bootable cloning stuff works easier
if your source and destination drives are
of the same type, not crossing from
IDE to SATA or vice versa.
What are your system specs OldGuy?
Does your main drive have a SATA or IDE
hardware interface? Is there a connector
or cable for a second SATA off the same
controller?
If I was partitioning your 200 GB I would start
by partitioning a very generous 20 Gigs for
First and Last and let the rest be a DATA partition.
In round numbers:
20000
160000
20000
Except that hard disk allocation is not
in those nice round numbers..
(Blame binary arithmetic, computer math.)
I use the install CD to partition, because
it is the "official" way to format for Windows.
Backup your Product Key and all software
and then delete all partitions or use a new
drive with none to begin with.
For the first partition type in 20000 (20 GB)
and look for the number it gets translated to
in terms of the hard disk. Not an even 20000.
Then I enter that number to do a second partition
of that exact same (translated) size.
Write down the exact digits for the remaining big chunk.
Then I delete the second partition and make
a second partition of that big size.
The remainder should be the exact same
translated size as the first one.
Don't forget to enter that to make the third (Last)
partition exactly the same size as the First.
I usually make a little tag with the translated
numbers and tape them to the drive so I don't
mark directly on the drive.
Something like:
20123
159123
20123
( but based on the translated numbers from
the method above )
And then point the installer CD to the First
partition to install to the First partition.
After it's booting OK without the CD, go into..
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Administrative Tools
> Computer Management > Disk Management
(Right click on the partition you want and select format
for the middle and Last partition.)
Label the three partitions First, DATA and Last to help
keep them straight for cloning operations.
(Makes booting on Last a whole lot less confusing
because it swaps First and Last in order to do that.)
Tinker with First until it's the way you like it then
clone from First partition to the Last partition.
In XXClone don't forget to run it again to get
access to "Cool Tools" to make the drive
fully bootable or set the system up with a menu
to be dual bootable.
It uses Microsoft's own multi boot menus.
I hope it helps!
Greegor
Nov 29, 2012, 9:18:24 AM11/29/12
to
On Nov 28, 4:39 pm, OldGuy <spam...@nospam.com> wrote:
> I am working with laptops.
> They are SATA drives in each.
> I just upgraded my laptop 120G to 320G SATA without problem and set
> three partitions of ~100G each. Loaded Win XP Pro and all my apps on
> C: and data on D:, reserving E: for an Image (Image also to external
> USB drive).
>
> I decided to use Macrium Reflect Free.
> Why? It can create a clone or an image.
> I like the image since it can go to any media easily.
> This can be written to another new drive or overwrite the corrupted C:
> using the Macrium Reflect Free rescue CD that I finally figured out how
> to create.
>
> The Image process was very quick. I can just copy that single image
> file anywhere, like a USB drive. The image is about 70% of the
> original C:.
>
> I am not doing dual-boot on these laptops. Don't need it here.
> I have dual boot on my desktop using Win 7 dual booting to Win XP Pro.
> That works just fine.
>
> Thanks for yor insights.
I'm glad it's working for you!
100 GB for system partition is probably WAY too big!
The main reason I switched from having just one
huge partition with system and data all mixed together
was that I could not just replace just the system partition
without involving EVERYTHING stored on the drive.
Image files have the advantage that they are like
time capsules of everything on the drive yet they
can be stored as data files, even on a USB drive
or an old IDE drive.
If your boot partition gets jammed up with
registry clutter, virii or Windows updates
failing in a "grey state" then you would
need to boot from something other than
the boot partition to re-write the boot partition.
That's why they use a Rescue CD, right?
So you can boot from that and rewrite the
boot partition from an image file?
Do your laptops all identical and do they all
use the same Windows "Product Key"?
I don't mean from the sticker on the side
but if you extract it using Magic Jelly Bean
or some other Key Finder program?
(OEM computers typically only use the
COA sticker product key as a last resort
after the factory install is lost or wiped.)
So you've got to pull it from SW...
If conditions are right you might be able
to make a "master" image for each
model of laptop, instead of each individual one.
Ghost was wildly popular at one point back
on the Win98SE era of machines because
you could stash images or clone drives or partitions.
But if you clone a drive with it installed
to multiple machines, then you are
obligated to remove it from all machines
you don't legally have Ghost licenses for.
And the Ghost proprietary formats changed,
so that new versions could not retrieve
image files created two versions back.
This slowed it down considerably with IT
people who have to conform to software
copyright audits.
Macrium is copyrighted software and they
want to get paid for each machine also,
don't they?
The thing I liked about XXClone (Free) is that
I can clone the heck out of it, right
ON every drive/partition and not violate
their copyright restrictions.
Being able to actually BOOT the clones
is the ultimate integrity test for fitness.
Does Macrium's copyright allow for that?
Or do they expect you to PAY for a license
to cover every laptop you have?
The Macrium image files might be slightly
less vulnerable to virus infection but I would
certainly advise you to make the boot partition
smaller and more easily swapped right
out from under your data partition.
Again though, glad you found what works for you.
> I am working with laptops.
> They are SATA drives in each.
> I just upgraded my laptop 120G to 320G SATA without problem and set
> three partitions of ~100G each. Loaded Win XP Pro and all my apps on
> C: and data on D:, reserving E: for an Image (Image also to external
> USB drive).
>
> I decided to use Macrium Reflect Free.
> Why? It can create a clone or an image.
> I like the image since it can go to any media easily.
> This can be written to another new drive or overwrite the corrupted C:
> using the Macrium Reflect Free rescue CD that I finally figured out how
> to create.
>
> The Image process was very quick. I can just copy that single image
> file anywhere, like a USB drive. The image is about 70% of the
> original C:.
>
> I am not doing dual-boot on these laptops. Don't need it here.
> I have dual boot on my desktop using Win 7 dual booting to Win XP Pro.
> That works just fine.
>
> Thanks for yor insights.
I'm glad it's working for you!
100 GB for system partition is probably WAY too big!
The main reason I switched from having just one
huge partition with system and data all mixed together
was that I could not just replace just the system partition
without involving EVERYTHING stored on the drive.
Image files have the advantage that they are like
time capsules of everything on the drive yet they
can be stored as data files, even on a USB drive
or an old IDE drive.
If your boot partition gets jammed up with
registry clutter, virii or Windows updates
failing in a "grey state" then you would
need to boot from something other than
the boot partition to re-write the boot partition.
That's why they use a Rescue CD, right?
So you can boot from that and rewrite the
boot partition from an image file?
Do your laptops all identical and do they all
use the same Windows "Product Key"?
I don't mean from the sticker on the side
but if you extract it using Magic Jelly Bean
or some other Key Finder program?
(OEM computers typically only use the
COA sticker product key as a last resort
after the factory install is lost or wiped.)
So you've got to pull it from SW...
If conditions are right you might be able
to make a "master" image for each
model of laptop, instead of each individual one.
Ghost was wildly popular at one point back
on the Win98SE era of machines because
you could stash images or clone drives or partitions.
But if you clone a drive with it installed
to multiple machines, then you are
obligated to remove it from all machines
you don't legally have Ghost licenses for.
And the Ghost proprietary formats changed,
so that new versions could not retrieve
image files created two versions back.
This slowed it down considerably with IT
people who have to conform to software
copyright audits.
Macrium is copyrighted software and they
want to get paid for each machine also,
don't they?
The thing I liked about XXClone (Free) is that
I can clone the heck out of it, right
ON every drive/partition and not violate
their copyright restrictions.
Being able to actually BOOT the clones
is the ultimate integrity test for fitness.
Does Macrium's copyright allow for that?
Or do they expect you to PAY for a license
to cover every laptop you have?
The Macrium image files might be slightly
less vulnerable to virus infection but I would
certainly advise you to make the boot partition
smaller and more easily swapped right
out from under your data partition.
Again though, glad you found what works for you.
Greegor
Nov 30, 2012, 1:16:44 PM11/30/12
to
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/browse_frm/thread/d144d8af6c69d720/e24c949803d0bdf8?hl=en#e24c949803d0bdf8
On Nov 30, 9:11 am, OldGuy <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Laptops are nearly the same and each has its own XP Pro install CD due
> to slightly different drivers used. I tried swapping XP Pro install
> CDs but the laptop would not boot with the wrong install; mismatch
> drivers.
Yup. I took great pains to avoid any mismatch among mine.
Even within one make and model you can get at least 5
different models of mainboard. I settled on one and
when I bought more the first thing I insist on is getting
the exact model of mainboard I need. Will do the same
when I pick up 2 more in the next few months.
Having to stash a whole bunch of different boot images
was a nightmare I had experienced before.
I see that Macrium Reflect Pro says it can restore
to dissimilar hardware. Now THAT would be special!
Are you going to buy the Pro version and
try out that feature?
> Macrium Reflect Free is all free $0.00 and can
> be used where ever; no limitations.
Good! Usually the freebie versions like that
restrict you to one machine. Lots of free
software are free for one machine only.
Use them in a business or more than one
system and you're supposed to pay for them.
I didn't see any limitation as to number of machines
for cloning, but I found this:
http://www.macrium.com/help/v5-free/Introduction/End_User_License_Agreement.htm
Data Protection
Macrium Reflect™ contains functionality which enables us to verify
your compliance with this License, It does so by collecting and
passing to us the identity of each Computer on which you load or
attempt to load Macrium Reflect™.
> Check their website for the additional features for the paid versions.
> I do not need those features but would not mind paying the low price
> for their software.
>
> The Rescue disk is bootable and will allow recreating C: from a
> partition or external USB drive Image.
>
> And yes, I need to create the Image for each laptop.
>
> BTW you are posting to multiple places and my MesNews complains about
> that and will not let me post to that many places so I have to fiddle
> with the Destination(Group). Your posts show up in other groups by
> themselves without my posts.
On Nov 30, 9:11 am, OldGuy <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Laptops are nearly the same and each has its own XP Pro install CD due
> to slightly different drivers used. I tried swapping XP Pro install
> CDs but the laptop would not boot with the wrong install; mismatch
> drivers.
Yup. I took great pains to avoid any mismatch among mine.
Even within one make and model you can get at least 5
different models of mainboard. I settled on one and
when I bought more the first thing I insist on is getting
the exact model of mainboard I need. Will do the same
when I pick up 2 more in the next few months.
Having to stash a whole bunch of different boot images
was a nightmare I had experienced before.
I see that Macrium Reflect Pro says it can restore
to dissimilar hardware. Now THAT would be special!
Are you going to buy the Pro version and
try out that feature?
> Macrium Reflect Free is all free $0.00 and can
> be used where ever; no limitations.
Good! Usually the freebie versions like that
restrict you to one machine. Lots of free
software are free for one machine only.
Use them in a business or more than one
system and you're supposed to pay for them.
I didn't see any limitation as to number of machines
for cloning, but I found this:
http://www.macrium.com/help/v5-free/Introduction/End_User_License_Agreement.htm
Data Protection
Macrium Reflect™ contains functionality which enables us to verify
your compliance with this License, It does so by collecting and
passing to us the identity of each Computer on which you load or
attempt to load Macrium Reflect™.
> Check their website for the additional features for the paid versions.
> I do not need those features but would not mind paying the low price
> for their software.
>
> The Rescue disk is bootable and will allow recreating C: from a
> partition or external USB drive Image.
>
> And yes, I need to create the Image for each laptop.
>
> BTW you are posting to multiple places and my MesNews complains about
> that and will not let me post to that many places so I have to fiddle
> with the Destination(Group). Your posts show up in other groups by
> themselves without my posts.
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