loxone interface to security systems: Pyronix vs. Orisec, etc

daniel poon

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Mar 11, 2021, 7:33:19 AM3/11/21

to Loxone English

Hi all

Ive got a house with a loxone installation that was installed by the previous owner.

Im upgrading my alarm and security camera system, and would like to interface it with loxone. Ive had a couple of quotes, one for a Pyronix system, and one for a Orisec system. These systems have their own apps, so I won't want to duplicate their functionality in loxone. However there are some things where it would be useful to have loxone and the security system communicating:

- arming/disarming the alarm though loxone (if I get round to setting up the loxone NFC)

- turning on outside lights if a camera senses movement

- switching all the lights on if the alarm is triggered

- grabbing some of the alarm sensor inputs to use in loxone

Which alarm system lends themselves to working with loxone? Pyronix, Orisec, or another? Any advice would appreciated.

Im a newbie to loxone, but willing to learn.

Thanks

Dan

David Wallis

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Mar 11, 2021, 7:36:36 AM3/11/21

to daniel poon, Loxone English

I’d recommend Texecom personally.

You can link with the Crestron protocol – but also there is the Connect Protocol that would be do-able.. I’ve signed an NDA with them so I’m aware of the protocol and have written a previous interface to it in C# - I’ve still yet to port this to loxone and I’m not sure that pico C is the best option for this..

There is also some stuff on GitHub if you google and you can work out a lot from that..

Just depends on what you want to do..

David

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Rahul and Nandita Thakrar

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Mar 11, 2021, 7:42:30 AM3/11/21

to David Wallis, daniel poon, Loxone English

I’m using Texecom with the Rs232 interface which works well.

See here: https://groups.google.com/g/loxone-english/c/Yhqf5-3-XhY

From: loxone-...@googlegroups.com <loxone-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of David Wallis <da...@wallis2000.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2021 12:36:32 PM
To: daniel poon <danie...@me.com>; Loxone English <loxone-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: loxone interface to security systems: Pyronix vs. Orisec, etc

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daniel poon

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Mar 12, 2021, 9:04:26 AM3/12/21

to Loxone English

Thanks for the recommendation. Have asked them to re-quote using texecom.

Same question regarding security cameras: is there a make of security camera that works well with Loxone?

David Wallis

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Mar 12, 2021, 12:41:29 PM3/12/21

to daniel poon, Loxone English

make sure it's the premier elite range and that you have the engineers code and udl password

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Jonathan Dixon

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Mar 12, 2021, 12:59:55 PM3/12/21

to David Wallis, daniel poon, Loxone English

(I'm assuming we're talking UK install here)

If you have the engineer's code, that means it can't (officially) be remote monitored with an URN for police call out. right?

And if it's not remote monitored, aren't the much better and more modern options available, like https://ajax.systems/ or indeed Loxone's built in alarm function?

IMHO Texecom is antiquated and only worth the overhead if you are in the UK, and specifically need to integrate with a Grade 2+ system that has ARC, maintenance contract, and police call out.

(In principle Ajax is also a graded system, but good luck funding a certified installer and monitoring service for it)

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daniel poon

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Mar 12, 2021, 1:32:46 PM3/12/21

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Hi Joth

Yes, UK install.

Getting a monitoring service is an option I'd like to have. Sounds like this means that the installation/monitoring company will have the engineer's code - does that mean my loxone engineer wouldn't have enough privileges to interface it with loxone?

Dan

David Wallis

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Mar 13, 2021, 2:56:13 AM3/13/21

to daniel poon, Loxone English

I'm not sure what's antiquated about it, fit and forget.. having the engineers code doesnt prevent monitoring, just need the correct installer.. let's me clear though you cannot compare loxone with an alarm system.. it wouldn't meet any requirements.. they don't even have battery backup so no chance.. its like people say here, loxone for Critical systems such as heating and lighting, for me that is not an alarm system.. yes you can make it do some fancy stuff.. lovely.

my leaving routines etc have always been triggered by the alarm rather than the other way around. ie single press of full is full set leaving the house and do stuff based on that. part set 1 or two is dogs in the kitchen or something different.

id suggest working out what you want to achieve then look at the market.

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Techdoctor

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Mar 13, 2021, 8:48:21 AM3/13/21

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I like to have alarm systems and Home Automation separate.

Most decent alarm systems will have some form of dry contact output for when an alarm is triggered, this can then be connected to the Loxone system. So you can get Loxone to then flash the lights.

Turning on outside lights when camera senses movement can be done with a motion sensor connected to Loxone or the security system might have an output for this as well.

The thing is most alarm systems have some kind of battery backup, which allows them to operate for 6 to 8 hours with out mains power, Loxone doesn't yet have a battery backed system though there are some 24V battery back up system I believe available from third parties.

In general Alarm systems do security very well and are rubbish at being home automation systems and like wise HA systems are good at home automation but not so good at the security. Home automation controllers are better security systems than alarm systems being home automation controllers.

One thing I did look into years ago we are talking X10 and Homevision ( www.csi3.com ) was to use a wireless to wired interface. This allowed to use say Visonic wireless PIRs etc and connect them to your HA controller. Visonic did something called the MCR-308 http://www.visonic.com/Data/Uploads/MCR_308_Installer_Guide_Eng_DE3191-8.pdf there was another from the maker of the ESP infinite Prime but like the MCR both are now no longer made. I also had help from RFXCOM as they lent me one of their devices to read Visonic wireless devices, to see if I could develop something via this route, but that proved to be too complicated.

I did find a company called FM Electronics that do something similar. https://www.fmelectronics.co.uk/HTML/Interfaces.htm so might relook at this again in the future.

@ danie...@me.com Their FM4040 looks like a possible candidate.

daniel poon

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Mar 15, 2021, 3:25:03 PM3/15/21

to Loxone English

Totally agree keeping the alarm system independent from the loxone system, especially in my case, since the Loxone installation is a complete dogs dinner!

daniel poon

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Mar 15, 2021, 3:28:35 PM3/15/21

to Loxone English

After digging around, there are Ajax installers and monitoring services available near where I live. What would be the benefit of using an Ajax alarm?

On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 17:59:55 UTC Joth wrote:

Jonathan Dixon

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Mar 16, 2021, 9:41:17 AM3/16/21

to daniel poon, Loxone English

On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 at 19:28, 'daniel poon' via Loxone English <loxone-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

After digging around, there are Ajax installers and monitoring services available near where I live. What would be the benefit of using an Ajax alarm?

I have Texecom myself, so no first hand experience of Ajax, but I saw a lot of praise for it on https://www.facebook.com/groups/AutomatedHome/ overall it looks the most progressive & forward looking kit that also has EN50131 grading. (I was just sharing it as an alternative lead to research really.)

From my point of view (planning my install 1+ year ago) it was let down by lack of public documented APIs for custom integrations, and lack of local installer, but neither of those seem inherent to the product just a matter of time and ecosystem maturity to build out. I expect in a year or two it could be a strong contender anyway.

- HomeKit integration is their most supported feature https://ajax.systems/features

- Public API, IFTTT (no thanks), openHab and Home assistant also feature, so Loxone would be doable on the back of any of those I'd expect.

https://ajax.systems/features/page/2/#feature-6147

Out of interest, where abouts in the UK did you find an installer?

And so, regarding Texecom...

> I'm not sure what's antiquated about it, fit and forget.. ..

Where to start :) Some examples:

- the premier elite user manual describes text entry via the numeric keypad as "like on a mobile phone". They're talking keypad multipress character entry, made obsolete by T9 predictive text in the late 90s. So that's a 30 year old analogy that means nothing at all to a new installer these days. They've either not updated their user manual in 2 decades, or whoever wrote it wasn't familiar with the idea of an iPhone (itself 13 years old now!)

- its external communications is limited to 3 RS232 ports, running at (typically) 19200 baud. Their "Connect" internet bridge demands two of them, leaving one (ideally) for GSM remote monitoring service and thus none for the loxone "Creston protocol" interconnect.

- their Texecom connect product is a joke. e.g. All I did was try to edit one user name, and it screwed up the names of every user (probably a parity error on that rs232 port ) and wouldn't recover so 10mins after installing it I was already resetting it and re-installing. The mobile app reviews speak for themselves.

- they advertise a set of "smart home" products but really simple things like having the remote keyfob also trigger the garage door opener (as advertised in their brochure) proved extremely difficult. Installer had no idea, called Texecom tech support and they also had no idea! "no one ever use this". Eventually they found their private tech manual on how to do it. Over an hour on the phone to setup. Turns out It takes 2 long presses, two waits for LED feedback, and one more press each time you want to open/close th door, so really not convenient as I drive / cycle / run up the driveway anyway after all that. Clearly, no one ever uses this.

- the default owner user name of MASTER is both gender biased and racially charged

- UI text is all uppercase, reminds me of texting in the 90s.

- the keypads (even the premier top end ones) have a vintage look about them.

- the wireless door/window sensors are dog ugly, or (if using the miniature ones) very unreliable (according to my installer)

... I could go on.

None of these are deal breakers, but put together it certainly all feels antiquated to me.

Even the installation company said they find it very old school to deal with and generally discourage it, they much prefer working with Orisec these days

> having the engineers code does not prevent monitoring, just need the correct installer

Challenge in this is finding the "correct installer" that exists within a reasonable distance of my house. I spoke to all the local Texecom installers and all said exactly the same thing: they won't share engineer code, and I would not find an installer that would.

I also asked 3 local Loxone installers who they'd use or recommend for the alarm install, but they didn't/wouldn't share any leads.

The installer I went with hesitatingly shared the UDL password at least, with a bunch of conditions attached. The install + loxone integration took enough time as it was (3 visits, and still has various loose ends) -- It would have been unworkable to use a company not from the local area.

Obviously, the above is all just one person's experience, but having just gone through this it seems worth sharing this contrasting view. YMMV.

Cheers