AGM attendance and resolution to increase membership fee.

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tenyen

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Nov 25, 2013, 2:37:15 PM11/25/13
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Heya,

So I'm under the impression that the AGM is mainly just
"to carry out our legal obligations towards the governance behind London Hackspace"

but I noticed a resolution has been raised (held my fire till after last nights deadline):
"that the minimum membership fee is increased from £5 to £10"

so while trying to avoid "discussing" the actual resolution now (we heard a lot
of opinions before) I was wondering whether a positive vote for this resolution
would actually make that a fact (I haven't seen any suggestion of an implementation
plan and I'm generally against it) or would we need to have another vote or meeting
(my interpretation of section 7.c of the articles (didn't get any further as it cured
my insomnia ;), let alone a plan, to make this happen.

If this was the actual vote and it seemed like it might get through that would
be a reason for me to come the AGM, otherwise I was thinking about
going to:

assuming this is the real deal anyone fancy creating:
?
or similar, and putting your name(s) against it.  (sure you can be for it
and put your name down, but if your willing to be dishonest to get this
through then your a better politician than me and I concede defeat ;)

(only suggesting the above as I'm about to set out for a night shift so probably won't be able to
suggest anything till far to near to the AGM),

sorry If I'm unnecessarily stirring a hornets nest or something,

--

Ninlilizi (MOBILE)

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Nov 25, 2013, 3:42:06 PM11/25/13
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This is something that I've been watching. But not the first clue how to campaign or make a stink against. So unarmed for such a war. Totally lost when war isn't about EW and WMDs and joyous chaos or destruction.
Maybe we could discuss and start planning some sort of guerilla campaign in a few weeks when it's more convenient?
I'd certainly be up for a fight over such an egregious measure.
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tgreer

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:05:56 PM11/25/13
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Only members in attendance at the AGM can vote... so the wiki page isn't going to be that helpful.

As far as I'm aware if it's voted on at the AGM and approved, it happens... the trustees can correct me if I'm wrong.

Ninlilizi (MOBILE)

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:14:49 PM11/25/13
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It is however a big thing. I'd really hate to be locked out the space over a stealth finance policy after all the opportunities to learn and better my situation the space is presenting. I'd really miss being a member.

tgreer <ukt...@gmail.com> wrote:
Only members in attendance at the AGM can vote... so the wiki page isn't going to be that helpful.

As far as I'm aware if it's voted on at the AGM and approved, it happens... the trustees can correct me if I'm wrong.

On Monday, 25 November 2013 19:37:15 UTC, tenyen wrote:
Heya,

So I'm under the impression that the AGM is mainly just
"to carry out our legal obligations towards the governance behind London Hackspace"

but I noticed a resolution has been raised (held my fire till after last nights deadline):
"that the minimum membership fee is increased from £5 to £10"

so while trying to avoid "discussing" the actual resolution now (we heard a lot
of opinions before) I was wondering whether a p ositive vote for this resolution
would actually make that a fact (I haven't seen any suggestion of an implementation
plan and I'm generally against it) or would we need to have another vote or meeting
(my interpretation of section 7.c of the articles (didn't get any further as it cured
my insomnia ;), let alone a plan, to make this happen.

If this was the actual vote and it seemed like it might get through that would
be a reason for me to come the AGM, otherwise I was thinking about
going to:

assuming this is the real deal anyone fancy creating:
?
or similar, and putting your name(s) against it.  (sure you can be for it
and put your name down, but if your willing to be dishonest to get this
through then your a better politician than me and I concede defeat ;)

(only suggesting the above as I'm about to set out for a night shift so probably won't be able to
suggest anything till far to near to the AGM),

sorry If I'm unnecessarily stirring a hornets nest or something,

--

Akki

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:25:51 PM11/25/13
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Ths is a huge change and I think it should be really fully discussed with all members before the AGM. It's kind of being snuck in through stealth. Historically we've had not a massive percentage of members at the AGM (nor vote for trustees. last year it was a bit iffy if we'd make quorum if I remember correctly?)

It wasn't in the original email to all paid up members saying this would be on the agenda. Unless you send out another email informing people and somehow they're able to attend in central London a weeknight with 2-3 days notice, this seems horribly unfair to all members who wish to have a say on this.
~Akki (Heather)

Alison W

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:29:25 PM11/25/13
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I can see that there is a definite need to cover the shortfall between income and expenditure (story of most if not all of our lives in the currently financial climate, I guess) but I concur that there is something 'stealth' about the way this now appears.

What is the minimum notice for such a motion?

I note that this motion was only added on the 13th, such that there will only be 14 days until it is voted upon. This seems rather ... short notice.

AlisonW

(declaration: I live solely on income support and pay £6 per month despite not having been in for months. Pushing that upwards would, quite possible, remove me from the list of paid-up-but-not-using-the-facilities members)


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Mark Steward

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:32:58 PM11/25/13
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As far as I know, yes this is theoretically possible. We need to be able to pass resolutions at an AGM.

However, I highly doubt that without massive influence, a resolution that:
 - is unrelated to any legal obligations
 - doesn't involve a vote before taking force
 - actually stands a good chance of *reducing* our income by permanently reducing the number of subscriptions
 - puts the onus on people it disadvantages to turn up in person, despite our insistence on being a fully virtualised organisation
 - isn't based on any serious discussion on the list beforehand

would get passed by the people attending.

Maybe we should kick off discussion of how to deal with this kind of issue after the AGM.


Mark


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Morris

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:34:41 PM11/25/13
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Sorry to derail the thread here but it seems to me there are alternative ways we could raise money to boost h/s income.
Not that I've got any comment on this increase as after all said and done the hackspace is twice the size of it's previous incarnation

Imagine the income boost a youtube channel would create it we were all to chip in a bit of time when we have it spare, the vast range of topics and therefore subscribers would be huge as would be the revenue from such an adventure.

I didn't feel like creating a fresh thr
--
>
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+++++>++++++++++<<<<
-]>>>+++++++.>++++++
+++++.+++..---------
.++++++++++.<<+++.<.

Morris

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:35:03 PM11/25/13
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ead*

Tom Sands

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:35:42 PM11/25/13
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I'd be much happier discussing it before the AGM so that we have a basis to judge around during the AGM.

Alison W

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:42:37 PM11/25/13
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A quick check of the articles (which determine how AGMs are held) [1] shows, at 20 a, that this motion *must* be ruled out of order on a time basis. Part (i) points out that it should have been sent to every member, and it clearly was not, not even by email (appearance in this thread wasn't 'notification'), and at (iii) requires 28 days' notice, and I noted above it was only added with 14 days to go and one would presume that Russ added it to the agenda in a timely manner and didn't wait 28-14=14 days to do so.

Though it does appear open to the meeting to over-rule at least one of those requirements.

AlisonW

Russ Garrett

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:45:56 PM11/25/13
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Section 20 pertains to written resolutions, which this isn't. As
secretary I can confirm that this resolution is valid to the best of
my knowledge under company law and our constitution.
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Alison W

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:46:31 PM11/25/13
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Addendum, from [2] I note

"Proposed Changes

Here's a list of the changes we're planning to make to the Articles:

4. AGM to be scrapped"

Three years on, what has happened to that proposal? (Mind you, I think an AGM is a definite 'good thing' so would vote to keep one)


AlisonW


[2] https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Organisation/New_Articles_%282010%29



On 25 November 2013 21:42, Alison W <ali...@gmail.com> wrote:

Alison W

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:47:50 PM11/25/13
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erm .. could you clarify that statement please Russ. If it isn't considered a "written resolution" what standing does it actually have, and where does it get that standing from?

Russ Garrett

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Nov 25, 2013, 4:52:07 PM11/25/13
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It's a "Resolution at meeting", Companies act 2006 s13(3)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/part/13/chapter/3

David Sullivan

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Nov 25, 2013, 5:06:43 PM11/25/13
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On Monday, 25 November 2013 21:05:56 UTC, tgreer wrote:
Only members in attendance at the AGM can vote... so the wiki page isn't going to be that helpful.


This is untrue, votes can be made on other members' behalf by a Proxy or it is possible to force poll to take place at a later date.

Sully.

tgreer

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Nov 25, 2013, 5:10:08 PM11/25/13
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Yes, I didn't know about the whole vote by proxy thing. My bad. Hence asking to be corrected (the bit you didn't include in your response)

Adrian Godwin

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Nov 25, 2013, 5:55:20 PM11/25/13
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There may be other reasons why you can't attend both, but I would like to point out that the AGM is on Wednesday and Oshug on Thursday.



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Benjamin Blundell

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Nov 26, 2013, 3:23:25 AM11/26/13
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I would indeed be at the AGM but cannot due to SJA validation that evening (which will be fraught at best) but would indeed like to vote by proxy.

Ninlilizi (MOBILE)

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Nov 26, 2013, 6:22:59 AM11/26/13
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Could someone in the know explain the correct way to proxy vote.
Also unable to make it. Combined factors of finances, my disability and not being local to London prevent me from that late in the day without much preplanning and logistics.

Lynz

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Nov 26, 2013, 6:34:14 AM11/26/13
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Hi Ninlilizi,

David Murphy

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Nov 26, 2013, 3:50:36 PM11/26/13
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so that we can make an informed decision is there any way for me to request some info that's only accessible to trustees?

it would require the grepping of some logs so I apologise if this is a pain but I feel that this can't be asked at the AGM and without some numbers on which to base our decisions we're left debating based on values rather than hard numbers.

mainly, how many members currently pay less than the proposed £10 minimum and, based on the doorbot logs (not perfect I know), how many of them have actually been in the space in , say, the last 2 months?

If it's a high proportion who have not been then that would hint to me that there's a large number of people who rarely use the space but do pay membership: something purely good for the space which we wouldn't want to mess with and would indicate a high risk of decreasing revenue if the proposal is implemented.

If on the other hand it's a low portion then that would hint that there's very few people who aren't using the space but who pay membership, implying that there's at least a chance that it could increase revenue.


Russ Garrett

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Nov 26, 2013, 3:52:56 PM11/26/13
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We'll release this data tomorrow.

Rob Kam

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Nov 26, 2013, 3:59:45 PM11/26/13
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I'm paying to support the space, but use it rarely. When I do make use of the space I pay the full rate for that month. 


From: David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com>
To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 26 November 2013, 20:50
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: AGM attendance and resolution to increase membership fee.

chrisbob12

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Nov 26, 2013, 6:49:54 PM11/26/13
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@Rob full rate?

Paul Randle-Jolliffe

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Nov 26, 2013, 7:22:24 PM11/26/13
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Perhaps it would be constitutionally fairer if some one proposed at the AGM to amend the proposal so as to put it to an electronic forum vote for all members after the AGM and then that is put to vote at the AGM 1st.

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Land Line: +44 (0) 207 193 9991
Mbl: +44 (0) 7 411 99 6893
Fax: +44 (0) 871 266 8130
 



On 26 November 2013 23:49, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote:
@Rob full rate?

Tim Reynolds

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Nov 26, 2013, 7:23:28 PM11/26/13
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As I understand it, the deadline for proposing things to be discussed at
the AGM has passed.

On 27/11/2013 00:22, Paul Randle-Jolliffe wrote:
> Perhaps it would be constitutionally fairer if some one proposed at the
> AGM to amend the proposal so as to put it to an electronic forum vote
> for all members after the AGM and then that is put to vote at the AGM 1st.
>
> --
> *Paul Randle-Jolliffe Esq*
> Land Line: +44 (0) 207 193 9991
> Mbl: +44 (0) 7 411 99 6893
> Fax: +44 (0) 871 266 8130
>
>
>
> On 26 November 2013 23:49, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:chris...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> @Rob full rate?
>
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Paul Randle-Jolliffe

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Nov 26, 2013, 7:25:12 PM11/26/13
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Its not a proposal its an amendment to a proposal

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On 27 November 2013 00:23, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net> wrote:
As I understand it, the deadline for proposing things to be discussed at the AGM has passed.


On 27/11/2013 00:22, Paul Randle-Jolliffe wrote:
Perhaps it would be constitutionally fairer if some one proposed at the
AGM to amend the proposal so as to put it to an electronic forum vote
for all members after the AGM and then that is put to vote at the AGM 1st.

--
*Paul Randle-Jolliffe Esq*

Land Line: +44 (0) 207 193 9991
Mbl: +44 (0) 7 411 99 6893
Fax: +44 (0) 871 266 8130



On 26 November 2013 23:49, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com
<mailto:chris...@yahoo.com>> wrote:

    @Rob full rate?

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Tim Reynolds

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Nov 26, 2013, 7:25:51 PM11/26/13
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I'm pretty sure they amount to the same thing.

On 27/11/2013 00:25, Paul Randle-Jolliffe wrote:
> Its not a proposal its an amendment to a proposal
>
> --
> *Paul Randle-Jolliffe Esq*
> Land Line: +44 (0) 207 193 9991
> Mbl: +44 (0) 7 411 99 6893
> Fax: +44 (0) 871 266 8130
>
>
>
> On 27 November 2013 00:23, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net
> <mailto:t...@christwithfries.net>> wrote:
>
> As I understand it, the deadline for proposing things to be
> discussed at the AGM has passed.
>
>
> On 27/11/2013 00:22, Paul Randle-Jolliffe wrote:
>
> Perhaps it would be constitutionally fairer if some one proposed
> at the
> AGM to amend the proposal so as to put it to an electronic forum
> vote
> for all members after the AGM and then that is put to vote at
> the AGM 1st.
>
> --
> *Paul Randle-Jolliffe Esq*
>
> Land Line: +44 (0) 207 193 9991
> <tel:%2B44%20%280%29%20207%20193%209991>
> Mbl: +44 (0) 7 411 99 6893
> <tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207%20411%2099%206893>
> Fax: +44 (0) 871 266 8130 <tel:%2B44%20%280%29%20871%20266%208130>
>
>
>
> On 26 November 2013 23:49, chrisbob12 <chris...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:chris...@yahoo.com>
> <mailto:chris...@yahoo.com <mailto:chris...@yahoo.com>>> wrote:
>
> @Rob full rate?
>
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Russ Garrett

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Nov 26, 2013, 7:31:32 PM11/26/13
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On 27 November 2013 00:22, Paul Randle-Jolliffe <paul.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps it would be constitutionally fairer if some one proposed at the AGM
> to amend the proposal so as to put it to an electronic forum vote for all
> members after the AGM and then that is put to vote at the AGM 1st.

The board of trustees would propose to do this if we thought this was
a resolution which deserved the attention of the membership, however
this isn't the case. We'd rather attempt to defeat it in a straight
vote.

We believe there is merit in the idea behind the proposal and we will
seriously discuss it after the AGM. There will be a more substantial
statement from the trustees tomorrow.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Paul Randle-Jolliffe

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Nov 26, 2013, 7:33:15 PM11/26/13
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Is it an ordinary resolution requiring a majority or a special requiring 75% vote?

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On 27 November 2013 00:25, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net> wrote:
I'm pretty sure they amount to the same thing.


On 27/11/2013 00:25, Paul Randle-Jolliffe wrote:
Its not a proposal its an amendment to a proposal

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On 27 November 2013 00:23, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net

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Paul Randle-Jolliffe

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Nov 26, 2013, 7:35:01 PM11/26/13
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That is heartening and would a Trustee accept my Proxy Against?

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Gausie

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Nov 26, 2013, 8:28:03 PM11/26/13
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In my experience of democratic governance, this kind of decision would be much better placed outside of the AGM. If we introduced a set of bye laws or something that can be changed outside of CGM, we could vote online/have quarterly meetings (something I think the space needs anyway).

An AGM shouldn't be a place for any decisions to be made if possible (although right now it is the only democratic decision making process we have).

Paul Randle-Jolliffe

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Nov 26, 2013, 8:44:40 PM11/26/13
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any organisation that takes such sorts of decision without discussing and analysis all the implications 1st is going to cause itself problems one way or another, for a start we have no idea how many people this will affect directly or what increase in revenue this could bring or risk between 100% of those staying or 100% of those leaving and how much disincentive it could be to new members?

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On 27 November 2013 01:28, Gausie <s...@gaus.co.uk> wrote:
In my experience of democratic governance, this kind of decision would be much better placed outside of the AGM. If we introduced a set of bye laws or something that can be changed outside of CGM, we could vote online/have quarterly meetings (something I think the space needs anyway).

An AGM shouldn't be a place for any decisions to be made if possible (although right now it is the only democratic decision making process we have).

Russ Garrett

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Nov 26, 2013, 8:55:37 PM11/26/13
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On 27 November 2013 01:28, Gausie <s...@gaus.co.uk> wrote:
> In my experience of democratic governance, this kind of decision would be much better placed outside of the AGM. If we introduced a set of bye laws or something that can be changed outside of CGM, we could vote online/have quarterly meetings (something I think the space needs anyway).
>
> An AGM shouldn't be a place for any decisions to be made if possible (although right now it is the only democratic decision making process we have).

I agree - at the moment the membership fee is effectively part of the
organisation's overall rules, which the trustees have authority to
change, but currently the method of changing these is a bit opaque. If
the mailing list reached a broad agreement that something needed to
change, then we'd be happy to bring it to a vote by the membership,
but I admit that the method of doing that isn't clear. (I'm also a
little concerned about fatiguing the membership by proposing too many
official votes.)

If there was a slightly more formal method of changing the rules, then
I think this would be a lot less of a problem. I'm definitely going to
look at this after the AGM (assuming of course I'm re-elected).

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

Rob Kam

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Nov 27, 2013, 2:03:05 AM11/27/13
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https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Membership

At least �20 + cost of any materials etc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "chrisbob12" <chris...@yahoo.com>
To: <london-h...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [london-hack-space] Re: AGM attendance and resolution to
increase membership fee.


@Rob full rate?

tim_n

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Nov 27, 2013, 3:34:42 AM11/27/13
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Currently have my own equipped workshop & materials in my own home.

I pop into the hackspace very occasionally.  I would like to be a part of it, but I don't 'use' the space to its full potential.  In short, it's a really nice idea and I want to support it.  I originally joined @ £20 a month, didn't use more than a handful of times over 6 months.  Then it moved, I've rejoined but it's so far away from me I doubt I'll get there more than once every two months.  If the minimum is more than £5 a month I'd find it hard to justify.

I can't make the AGM on a wednesday - I run a scout troop or I'll be travelling the country.  As a proxy vote, I'd be against it.

On Wednesday, 27 November 2013 07:03:05 UTC, Rob Kam wrote:
https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Membership

At least �20 + cost of any materials etc.

Monty

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Nov 27, 2013, 5:51:32 AM11/27/13
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Posting your vote to the mailing list wont get counted, so if you wish to proxy vote then be sure to follow these instructions: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/london-hack-space/yU4TruvRw1U/0gseP7yTo8AJ
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