Donation (if wanted) - LED Screen Tiles

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mistamudd

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Mar 26, 2017, 3:37:04 AM3/26/17
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Hi folks.

Tom here - your occasional LED screen dumper !


Would folks be interested in any more tiles from LED screens ?  I have a few boxes of LED tiles to clear out that used to belong to a digiLED MC7 LED Screen.   They are the exact same type as recently donated to the Las Vegas Hackspace (Synshop) .  Please see https://groups.google.com/d/msg/synshop/ov_LCQSXeds/jCaFP1iGBAAJ for details.


Let me know if there's any interest or, as always , please do say  "we dont want any more of your old LED crap Tom :-) "


All the best


Tom

Michele Panegrossi

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Mar 26, 2017, 4:16:24 AM3/26/17
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Hi Tom,

I would love two of them! What kind of driver do they need?

Many thanks,
Michele

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mistamudd

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Mar 26, 2017, 4:27:17 AM3/26/17
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Hi Michelle.   I'm guessing by 'driver' you mean how to get them lit up and displaying video again ?

Well, there's been a number of Pi and arduino projects in the US and UK with previous LED tiles Ive donated.... Have a search for 'Jumbotron' and lots will pop up.


Alternatively, if you're happy to buy off-the-shelf kit, you can purchase the controller cards (we call the scan cards) from the web here :   http://www.led-card.com/led-receiver-board.html


To quirt video into these cards you'll then need an LED sender card (think of it as a DVI capture card to convert to LED tile protocol)  :  http://www.led-card.com/led-sending-card.html


Originally these LED panels ran on the Linsn family of Sender and Scan but there's no reason you couldn't go for the more common NovaStar or similar instead.



All you'll need then to light them up is a hub card  (to distribute the power and data from the Scancard)   and some 5v DC power.




Its only a brief summary but I hope it helps.



Tom

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John Jordan

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Mar 26, 2017, 5:04:42 AM3/26/17
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Hi tom.

How many do you have?

I was thinking of making some LED cubes. These sound perfect!

Thanks

John

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Henry Sands

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Mar 26, 2017, 6:49:08 AM3/26/17
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Can never say no to more LED screens! how many do you have available? I'd love to do a little wall feature.

Henry.

JJ

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Mar 26, 2017, 9:52:33 AM3/26/17
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Likewise. I'd like to make up a larger display if there are enough up for grabs.

Thanks,

JJ

Nigel Worsley

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Mar 26, 2017, 10:30:10 AM3/26/17
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> Would folks be interested in any more tiles from LED screens?

YES!

I have an application in mind for four tiles, a spare or two would be
nice, but even a pair of them would be useful. I am thinking about
knocking up a PCB to interface them to an ESP32, I suspect a few other
people would be interested in this too.

Nigle

Jasper Wallace

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Mar 26, 2017, 11:35:27 AM3/26/17
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I'd like a pair if possible (I'm assuming thats the 16x64 smaller things.)

Do you know if there are any better docs of pinouts etc?

This is in the google groups link you posted:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=forums&srcid=MTUyMzA2ODU4ODYxODQ1OTIyODEBMDA0MDI2NzYzMDQxNzczNDU1MzABRkw2ZU81MjJCQUFKATAuMQEBdjI

Ok, this looks good:

https://github.com/krux702/led_panel_wall


> All the best
>
>
> Tom
>
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deanforbes

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Mar 26, 2017, 6:39:41 PM3/26/17
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count me in if there are any still going 

3 by 3 panel would be great if not 2 by would also good

so optimistically 9 if not 4 would be great too 

:-) 



On Sunday, 26 March 2017 08:37:04 UTC+1, mistamudd wrote:

Michele Panegrossi

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Mar 27, 2017, 6:36:29 AM3/27/17
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Thanks Tom,

Yes that's what I meant! I remember that thread on the mailing list, I'm sure I'll be able to sort something out!

Many thanks,
Michele

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Jon Russell

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Mar 27, 2017, 6:43:48 AM3/27/17
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Hi,

I would love a couple fi there's any left. I'm a bit late to the party ! :-)
either 1 or 2, or 4 !? :-)

Thanks !

Jon.

bleh blah

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Mar 27, 2017, 10:12:10 AM3/27/17
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Would love some if poss?

Message has been deleted

mistamudd

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Mar 27, 2017, 10:17:44 AM3/27/17
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OK - Good to see there's still a gang of people up for some LED projects :-)

Lets talk numbers...

I don't want to swamp you guys but there are approximately 1500 of these tiles !  They are currently stored in 19 crates each of which is 112x58x73cm . 



I've offered some of these to other hack spaces too but there's still heaps to go round.



I'm happy to run some of these up to Hackney in the boot of my car 1 crate at a time.   If people would like a few more though it might need a van.   (These are located at our office just outside Dorking in Surrey)  Very happy for people to request as few or as many as they like.  Just let me know.



All the best


Tom

ps - if you're curious whether you've seen these LED tiles before.... this is them in the background heart screen :   https://i.scdn.co/image/8d52d583a342e3d84f6525cc429111e58dc0ff06

Tom Mudd

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Mar 27, 2017, 10:18:30 AM3/27/17
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Very happy to share around.

There's 1500 of them going begging :-)



Tom



On 27 March 2017 at 15:16, kraptv <skylab...@gmail.com> wrote:
Would love two for the Richmond Makerlabs if possible! Am also an LHS member and can pick up there.

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John Jordan

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Mar 27, 2017, 10:27:33 AM3/27/17
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Wow! If there are that many then i would really like maybe 2 creates.

Thinking an LED cube and a video wall for a AV idea i have been planning on for a while.

Thanks

John

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Jon Russell

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Mar 27, 2017, 11:11:38 AM3/27/17
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I don't feel embarrassed or greedy asking for 4 now !!! :-)

Regards,

Jon.

Richard Patterson

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Mar 27, 2017, 11:17:19 AM3/27/17
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On 27 March 2017 at 15:18, Tom Mudd <mist...@gmail.com> wrote:
Very happy to share around.

There's 1500 of them going begging :-)


Awesome, I'd be keen for 2 please.   
My allocation from the last lot got wombled before I could get to the Space to collect. :(

-Richard

Aden

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Mar 27, 2017, 11:19:35 AM3/27/17
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How many would it take to cover an entire room in them?

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Nigel Worsley

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Mar 27, 2017, 11:24:51 AM3/27/17
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On 27 March 2017 at 16:19, Aden <ad...@aden.org.uk> wrote:
> How many would it take to cover an entire room in them?

All 1500 of them probably isn't quite enough for the quiet room. And a
10,000 amp 5V supply would be rather bulky and expensive...

Nigle

Matt Camp

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Mar 27, 2017, 11:33:26 AM3/27/17
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I'd love 16 of them (enough for a 1x1m display) for an art project if there are still plenty left... I'd need to pick up from somewhere in London though as I don't have a car.

Henry Sands

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Mar 27, 2017, 11:34:24 AM3/27/17
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If I could pinch 20, that would be amazing.

Kind regards,
Henry.

JJ

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Mar 27, 2017, 3:37:59 PM3/27/17
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How big and heavy is a crate? Work takes me within a few miles every other week so I could potentially collect and distribute for those west of London.

mistamudd

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Mar 28, 2017, 8:46:52 AM3/28/17
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I'm going to chuck a crate or two in my boot tonight and run them back into London.

I'll photograph them and get an approximate weight for you.


On that subject, how early do people arrive at the Hackspace ?   Wondering if I could do a drop-off at , say 8am tomorrow morning  ?

Could somebody let me know please ?


Also - sorry about that stupid signature image that's attached itself.... Not quite sure why or how it got into my posts.  Sorry !



Tom


Michele Panegrossi

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Mar 28, 2017, 9:29:58 AM3/28/17
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Wow! 

I don't want to sound greedy... But in this case i would love to get 20 of them if at all possible!... I've seen your email about being at the hackspace tomorrow morning at 8am.

I can be there if you need somebody to let you in. I'll pm you my number.

Many thanks,
Michele

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mistamudd

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Mar 28, 2017, 1:23:28 PM3/28/17
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Here's what the boxes look like.

I managed to load 1 and a half boxes worth into the boot of my car  ( I'll drop these at the Hackspace tomorrow am)  (Thank you Michele for agreeing to meet me)

The wooden crates, weight wise are a reasonable 2 person lift. Pulling the tiles out 1 by 1 though is also pretty easy.

Just FYI


Tom
Boxes.JPG
2017-03-28 18.18.11.jpg

Jon Russell

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Mar 28, 2017, 2:06:53 PM3/28/17
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Is it going to be a free for all tomorrow morning, with people just grabbing arm fulls of screens :-) or is there any kind of system ?
:-)

Regards,

Jon.

Adrian Godwin

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Mar 28, 2017, 2:09:30 PM3/28/17
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Let them all go, then ask Tom to bring some more ?


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Aden

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Mar 28, 2017, 2:16:06 PM3/28/17
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A free for all sounds like the best system, as last time everyone reserved them then left them around the space for months. Maybe people wanting large quantities should wait until the end or go pick them up themselves though. IE everyone only grab one or two to start with.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 7:06 PM, Jon Russell <goo...@red-herring.co.uk> wrote:

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Tom Mudd

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Mar 28, 2017, 4:58:57 PM3/28/17
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Please dont worry....

There's plenty to go around.


I live around the corner so can easily do boot-full by boot-full over the next few weeks.


Tom



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Michele Panegrossi

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Mar 29, 2017, 3:31:40 AM3/29/17
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Hi guys,

Tom just left and delivered a huge amount of tiles! Pic attached, they are all under the table in the main space.
He said there's plenty more if we want them.

I'm going to come back in an hour or so and take 20 of them.

Thanks,
Michele


IMG_20170329_082629.jpg

Michele Panegrossi

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Mar 29, 2017, 3:51:46 AM3/29/17
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By the way, a HUGE thanks to Tom!!!

😆😆😆😆😆

JLJ

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Mar 29, 2017, 5:07:09 AM3/29/17
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Awesome! 

I have grabbed a couple to start lighting them up.

Thanks so much Tom.

John

Graham Perdeaux

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Mar 29, 2017, 5:15:00 AM3/29/17
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I have a project in mind for these - if there's that many I'd like 20 too please - I have no problem picking them up from Dorking if it suits you better.

Jamie Smith

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Mar 29, 2017, 5:46:37 AM3/29/17
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With folk taking 20 at a time i hope theres a couple left for me when i get there :D

Paddy Duncan

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Mar 29, 2017, 6:02:20 AM3/29/17
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A note from the Trustees:

Can we please be sensible and try not to leave them cluttering up the space forever.

Please remove them asap when collecting rather than just spread them about.

I know it’s a tall order but…

Ta

Paddy

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tom

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Mar 29, 2017, 6:12:27 AM3/29/17
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If we run out you can always check my soon-to-be-opening eBay store

JLJ

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Mar 29, 2017, 9:13:38 AM3/29/17
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Does anyone have any more info on getting them up and running been do some research today.

The easy way would be to purchase all the cards etc but was wondering if anyone has found anything on hacking these. Using RPi or arduino?

Thanks

John

Toby Catlin

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Mar 29, 2017, 9:22:42 AM3/29/17
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This wiki page was build for the previous LED tile bonanza: https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/LED_tiles

I had an amount of success running the code but the addressing system of those tiles was different to the Adafruit panels and so most of the existing code doesn't cut it. 

I would be very interested in any more info on these new tiles.

t

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Jon Russell

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Mar 29, 2017, 10:05:24 AM3/29/17
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From the brief look we had today;
(mixed with some wild speculation)

There are 16 x 64 RGB LEDs. (3072 individual LEDs)

There are 48 MBI5034 LED controller chips on the PCB, which are 16 bit shift register constant current sinks.
The controller chips are labelled R,G & B 1-16. So each chip does 16 LEDs of the same colour. They each have a current set resistor.
There are two address line inputs and the LED chips seem to be soldered in to banks of 4. Which makes sense.
There is an HC138 decoder on the address lines, and only the first four outputs seem to be wired. Again, matches the above.
There are also 8 dual FET chips, which seem to control the 4 banks.

The top connector is all Vcc
The bottom is all ground
The middle has :
D1 & D2 (not sure if these are two different data ins, or data in and data out)
OE (Output enable)
LAT (Latch)
A0 & A1
CLK (Clock)
NC


So, I'm guessing you need to send 3 (RGB) x 16 frames of 16 bits for each 4 addresses.

Set A0 & A1 to 0x00
Clock 3 x 16 frames of 16 bits
Set A0 & A1 to 0x01
Clock 3 x 16 frames of 16 bits
Set A0 & A1 to 0x10
Clock 3 x 16 frames of 16 bits
Set A0 & A1 to 0x11
Clock 3 x 16 frames of 16 bits

Rinse and repeat *many* times a second !

They seem to be constant current sinks. So, to do brighten you need to keep updating them, very, very, fast !!!

Not something an Arduino will do. Or even a RPi .. hence why all the controllers are FPGA.

If you want to just have single RGB colours, then an Arduino will light them. But if you want brightness control, it's too much data.

Wild speculation is the two data lines are both data in, so you might have to send two data streams at the same time, one drives the top half, the other drives the bottom half, which would halve the amount of data you need to send and double the refresh rate.

I'll try and jerry rig one tonight

Regards,

Jon.

JLJ

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Mar 29, 2017, 10:32:35 AM3/29/17
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Great info thanks,

Any idea on power usage? Just trying to get some idea of who many power supplies im going to need.

Thanks

Jon Russell

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Mar 29, 2017, 10:38:55 AM3/29/17
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Some fag packet maths ... Assuming you can only have 768 LEDs on at any one time (assumes there are 4 banks)
10mA per LED = 7.7A
15mA = 12A, 
20mA = 15.5A ?

If you control the brightness, they wont be on all the time. So, a 10-15A power supply should be fine per panel.
A basic ATX PSU should do 20-30A @ 5v

Regards,

Jon.

Nigel Worsley

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Mar 29, 2017, 10:39:51 AM3/29/17
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On 29 March 2017 at 15:32, JLJ <chillicl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Any idea on power usage? Just trying to get some idea of who many power
> supplies im going to need.

The minimum current per LED for the driver chips is specified as 3mA,
so at least 9.2A with all leds on.

Nigle

Stephen Casey

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Mar 29, 2017, 10:54:49 AM3/29/17
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So, one ATX or similar PSU per panel?! That's heavy! I'd love to mess about with these, but the reality is that I have neither the time, nor any worthwhile end use, to justify taking any.

Good luck to all of you who are working with these. I look forward to seeing the outcomes.

Cheers.

Stephen.

Robin Baumgarten

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Mar 29, 2017, 10:58:40 AM3/29/17
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Ooh! I'll take a few as well. Started experimenting with the Teensy already :)

If we get a few more of these crates, I'd happily take 24 or so (for a full cube). Unless there's not enough for everyone, of course.

Graham Perdeaux

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Mar 29, 2017, 11:22:25 AM3/29/17
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If they're in the way now and more coming, I could take some now and others who can't get in yet could take from the later stock, if it's more convenient?

tom

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Mar 29, 2017, 12:14:24 PM3/29/17
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We've made some progress with these, the pinouts seem to be as follows

A0 and A1 are definitely bank selectors, however the banks are arranged like in rows rather than blocks:

3
2
1
0
3
2
1
0
3
2
1
0
3
2
1
0

so a bank 0 spans 4 rows in total
D2 and D1 are data pins for the upper and lower halves of the display

other than drawing white lines on the screen i've yet to make any more progress :)

tom

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Mar 29, 2017, 12:34:32 PM3/29/17
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heres some test code that illustrates the wacky scan-pattern this uses

Robin Baumgarten

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Mar 29, 2017, 1:50:54 PM3/29/17
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Just to confirm, I've got Tom's code running on my Teensy 3.6 as well. The data pins can be driven directly with 3.3V. I'm powering the panel with a 5v 10a supply.

I'm writing some simple 3-bit display code now...

Robin Baumgarten

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Mar 29, 2017, 8:21:00 PM3/29/17
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Ok, I've written a simple program that displays a 3-bit picture (red green blue, but only on or off for each of those).


It's not optimized in any way, it could probably be made much faster by avoiding the digitalWrite functions and/or using some form of DMA.
On my (admittedly extremely fast) Teensy 3.6 i get 807 frames per second at 240mhz, which might be fast enough to get more colours rather than just the 9 or so you can get with 3 bits. At least the bright ones.

Jon Russell

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Mar 29, 2017, 8:52:59 PM3/29/17
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On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 6:50:54 PM UTC+1, Robin Baumgarten wrote:

Henry Sands

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Mar 30, 2017, 4:01:21 AM3/30/17
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Looks awesome, what are you using to drive it?

Jon Russell

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Mar 30, 2017, 6:49:18 AM3/30/17
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Just an Arduino at the mo, and very slowly.

But I've worked out the colour mapping / bit stream to LEDs.

The panels are laid out a bit weird. They are designed to make the panel electronics cheap and easy and move all the mapping in to software. But that makes the software a bit more complex.

I'll try and write up the LED mappings in to the wiki.

Here's an example of a full colour screen, cycling between colours. Again, not as fast as it could be ...


Regards,

Jon.

Jon Russell

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Mar 30, 2017, 6:51:19 AM3/30/17
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Also, that was topping out my PSU at about 7A. So, the screen fully on (given the refresh rate for the four lines) pulls about 7 amps @ 5v.

Robin Baumgarten

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Mar 30, 2017, 11:06:33 AM3/30/17
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Tom and I have figured out the pattern mapping as well. And I've written a little mapping function in my arduino test file above, if that helps. Admittedly, documentation isn't perfect there.

Jon Russell

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Mar 30, 2017, 11:15:26 AM3/30/17
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I've started an update on the wiki ... feel free to add, update, delete as desired.


Regards,

Jon.

Giacomo Giacomo

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Mar 30, 2017, 12:01:24 PM3/30/17
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Rob Kam

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Mar 31, 2017, 9:55:39 AM3/31/17
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If any are left, I'd like one please.

Nigel Worsley

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Mar 31, 2017, 12:21:46 PM3/31/17
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On 31 March 2017 at 14:55, 'Rob Kam' via London Hackspace
<london-h...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> If any are left, I'd like one please.

You can see them on the main room webcam, a big stack next to the Club
Mate. At least 50 of them by my reckoning, probably a fair bit more.
They might disappear quicker over the weekend though.

Nigle

Rob Kam

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Apr 1, 2017, 7:20:52 AM4/1/17
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Thanks, got some :-)
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Edward

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Apr 1, 2017, 8:42:10 AM4/1/17
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Hi tom,

I'll take two crates if possible.

Thanks ever so much,

Ed

Oliver Passey

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Apr 2, 2017, 7:15:39 PM4/2/17
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Many Thanks, grabbed a few to see how i can use them
Will be back for more if i manage to drive them easily.

Thanks!

mistamudd

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Apr 3, 2017, 3:40:48 AM4/3/17
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Hi Jon et al.

I've been asked for info on the LED Scancards (receiving cards)  available from http://www.led-card.com/

Here's what I can help with.

On the website you'll find cards from companies called Linsn, DBstar, NovaStar etc.  The one's I'd recommend are from Nova Star (although the others should still work).

The control software from Nova (Nova Mars) is by far the most friendly and widely used LED panel control software.  This can be downloaded here :  https://www.dropbox.com/s/17r9j3b2ycbif82/NovaLCT-Mars%20V4.4.1%20Setup.exe?dl=0


But, there's a hitch - If you buy an LED screen from us we will give you a pre-made config file called an rcfg file.   This is the file that configures the Scancard to work with a given design of LED tile.  

Sadly, because this isn't a standard digiLED product I cant share a ready made file with you.  Instead, you need to create the file yourself.

This is done from the Receiving Card Tab of the Screen Configuration menu.  Look for a menu called "Smart Settings"

Smart settings will walk you through a wizard where you click-in the multiplex/ scan info , the RGB order info and the pixel map info of the LED tile, all guided by lit up sections of the LED tile and click responses in Mars.   The end result of this process is a newly created rcfg file that will configure your Scancard of choice to you LED tile of choice.  Bingo !  Job done  (nearly)


So - which cards ?


I'd recommend you start with this one http://www.led-card.com/novastar-mrv336-led-display-receptor.html  because it's cheap and can do lots and lots of LED tiles on one card.


You are also going to need one of these http://www.led-card.com/novastar-msd300-led-display-decoder.html  to act as your DVI to LED converter card.



With this little bundle of kit you literally have enough to map a 64 x 16  pixel slice of your computer desktop straight onto the LED tiles at full video quality and frame-rate.  Add more LED tiles = bigger pixel space.  Copy Paste Repeat and you could take this all the way to 4k width or height although a screen with these pixels at 4k size would be mahussive !!!



Hope that's useful to folks.


All the best


Tom


Tom Mudd

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Apr 3, 2017, 5:39:58 AM4/3/17