Community organisation would like access to leather and sewing studios for disabled and deaf people
Vivas Pro
Charles Yarnold
Not-for- profit community organisation wishes to access the studio for leather and sewing workshops for deaf and disabled people.Anybody with any disability can join the group to learn one of the skills for free. The tutors are disabled too and doing voluntary work.
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Henry Sands
Tim Reynolds
doesn't fill me with much confidence.
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deanforbes
On Thursday, 21 April 2016 15:59:16 UTC+1, Vivas Pro wrote:
deanforbes
On Thursday, 21 April 2016 15:59:16 UTC+1, Vivas Pro wrote:
Charles Yarnold
The pearl mongers event was open to all to attend unlike this event and was held by an existing member with support from the membership for this event and content to be of interest.
The London arduino course was similarly open to anyone to attend and did have a fee to over costs.
The proposal for this thread is to have sessions only alible to people within this outside organisation's catchment audience with the organisers not being existing members and currently no support from the membership to hold these closed sessions. I don't think these examples you have given show parallel existing examples.
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Charles Yarnold
Also none of the events you listed signed up members on bulk to enable them to use the space without going through the normal channels. Thus is similar to if a university decided to effectively rent the workshop by signing up their students themself to provide them access.
Mark Steward
Rita, who's on the Hackspace system but not a member yet, has posted an advert for this event already[1]. And a check through the Vivas Pro page[2] shows they were recently advertising similarly at Create Space, Wembley, so maybe someone from CSL has some experience to share.
Vivas Pro or trustees, could someone share more detail on what this is actually about? Have you read our guide to running an event at the space? If not, it's here:
[1] https://www.facebook.com/ritam5/posts/10206589588724699
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JJ
Mark Steward
It's not just convention, it's explicitly called out in the guide.
There is definitely a private dialogue going on which I'd like to be not private.
Mark
Call me a dinosaur but is it not still convention to actually get agreement to use a venue before signing people up to attend an event there?Or is there a private dialogue going on that the general membership of this list aren't party to?
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deanforbes
London Arduino & Machines Room
deanforbes
Charles Yarnold
If you want to contrast Dean, please use information on the event when held at our location , you have copy pasted about an event at machines room.
Charles Yarnold
I miss spoke, I mistook the location on the event.
However I take great umbridge at your comment: "however at thus point, It feels like a negative reaction to deaf people be justified on spurious grounds" it sounds like you are trying to say that the negative reaction is because the people taking part are deaf? ! What grounds do you have to assert that? That to me is an emotive argument from yourself.
The onus is on the person wanting to hold the event to show why it should be held, not the other way around.
I see also that you haven't touched on my pointing out about the parallel on if a university wished to do the same with the workshop, I'm sure a different reaction would be had to that.
Charles Yarnold
The evidence that this has happened is that I said in my first email that we had been having a dialogue, or are you calling into question if I'm lying about that?
deanforbes
Charles Yarnold
Given I double checked and retracted based on them I don't think your point is made.
You have yet to suggest a parallel event that us the same as this that is:
An outside company
Registering and paying for members on their behalf without them doing so and becoming part of the community.
To hold events not open to the whole community.
Without first being members and knowing the space.
The 2 examples you have given don't fall into this.
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deanforbes
On Thursday, 21 April 2016 15:59:16 UTC+1, Vivas Pro wrote:
Charles Yarnold
I didn't say we are a university, I was referring to:
"This is similar to if a university decided to effectively rent the workshop by signing up their students themself to provide them access."
I don't see anyone trying to remove you from the conversation, just pointing out where you are incorrect in your arguments.
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Mark Steward
Let's stop arguing about whether there's an exact precedent, and assume there isn't for now.
The original poster isn't set to receive email, so I've included them in this email. They should be given at least some time to take down the advertisement and respond.
I don't see anything in the post or advertising saying that it's charged for, and we've allowed people to turn up to events organised by members on the understanding that the attendees may want to join too. Offering to sign users up is like something you'd do if someone said we didn't admit non-members to organised events.
It also doesn't look like a big event, so the only concern I can see is that a couple of people turn up on Monday asking to be let in. Surely we can just tell them to come back on Tuesday?
Mark
Mark Steward
deanforbes
On Thursday, 21 April 2016 15:59:16 UTC+1, Vivas Pro wrote:
Eugene Nadyrshin
Peter "Sci" Turpin
"studio". It does rather smack of a lack of research.
It sounds like a positive thing they're doing, but doesn't sound like
they have any pre-existing connection to the hackspace or knowledge of
how it's arranged. They're a completely outside entity.
They also haven't specified the manner of disabilities they might be
catering to. I don't think we're set up well to support access for large
groups of people with mobility issues, or able to make the space safe
enough in the case of any severe developmental disabilities.
My gut instinct says we're being canvassed simply because we're a
"creative space". The subject line suggests this is a stock message
being sent to multiple candidates.
Charles Yarnold
You are correct, we have never had an event that excludes everyone other than deaf people. There is a marked difference between an event that is catered for and supports deaf people and one, and I quote from the op "Anybody with any disability can join the group to learn one of the skills for free. "
You said "as for the discussion I am playing the ball and wont be "invited" off it" I was pointing out that no one has invited you off it. You yourself made it personal in your first email insinuating that the responses were due to prejudice against the people the event was aimed at with no reasoning to back it up.
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Billy
Conversations and personal dis-agreements aside, Vivas Pro have been actively advertising this event without discussing it here, and without us having agreed to it.
This doesn't show good faith, and doesn't show any understanding of what the hackspace is about.
I would have been up for his event taking place, but it hasn't been organised properly.
Billy
Sorry, that should have read "I would have been up for this event taking place, but it hasn't been organised properly."
While we have ground floor access, we don't have accessible toilets.
It also seems that the organisers aren't explaining how the hackspace works, which brings a whole 'nother set of issues.
Can guests truly be said to be acting under their own recognisance, if they haven't been made aware that they are going to be personally responsible for themselves and their actions?
Billy
Further, in the Facebook announcement referenced by Mark, https://www.facebook.com/ritam5/posts/10206589588724699 says that "These FREE classes are starting from Monday "
This implies that they are going to be ongoing events, which really needs to be discussed here, before being advertised.
Billy
Looking at the application form that they are using here, http://form.jotformeu.com/60554775670362 it seems that the classes they are planning to run are going to be running from Monday to Saturday, not just on the Monday they announced.
Jim Hayes
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Jim Hayes
Billy
They also really need someone to help them with ther website and their social media communications.
They have malformed links to their Facebook page, http://vivaspro.org.uk/facebook.com/vivas.pro.90
The Youtube account was set up two days ago, https://www.youtube.com/user/VivasProTV
And they've mis-spelt ther name on the Twitter account, https://twitter.com/ViivaPro
Marc Barto
That Machine rooms in conjunction with an outside group run by a member have run a paid course (where they paid themselves) at the hackspace and have "covered their costs" this I believe has set a precedent
2. We have covered the cost(-ish), we paid the teacher and donated £150 to the space, there was no profit for the meetup and it certainly didn't cover my countless hours preparing the event.
It's not straightforward to run an event in the space (see previous post here), so for me it was really about bringing together communities. I was hoping to run more workshops at the space but it looks like it's not appreciated so I might as well do this elsewhere.
Paddy Duncan
I was going to paraphrase the communication between Vivaspro and myself (the Trustees) but I feel that could too easily lead to further misunderstanding or misinterpretation so:
If Vivaspro give their permission here (they are cc'd) I will happily publish the entire thread.
Paddy
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Adrian Godwin
Sol It always worth checking your facts, I suspect you make my point # @447 FYIThat Machine rooms in conjunction with an outside group run by a member have run a paid course (where they paid themselves) at the hackspace and have "covered their costs" this I believe has set a precedent
Lex Robinson
A S
I met two of them on the Tuesday, after the induction presentation, where they raised the possibility of using the space for their workshops.
I told them the reason the community would be happy for a workshop to be run in the space is because it benefits the space, either because it is something members will want to join, or a potentially a financial contribution in lieu. For lack of the former* they seemed agreeable in paying the latter.
In any case, I told them that they would need to seek approval from the community here, which they have now done. (They had an issue that was causing their emails to the list to bounce.)
There was also the suggestion that they could sign up the teachers as members, who could let the students in as their guests, and then use the space as regular members, with no special treatment, such as classroom booking.
As far I can see, this is a somewhat loophole open to abuse, as suggested by Sol, and those concerned may wish to start a new thread to discuss this, and potentially close the aforementioned loophole.
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A930913
*Unless they classify Asperger's as a disability in which case most members can come :D [Source: EGM]
Mr Ed
On Friday, 22 April 2016 10:24:38 UTC+1, Lex Robinson wrote:
Wow, this is an impressive thread to wake up to.Hats off to dean for having the balls to complain about the toxicity of the mailing list in the same post as attacking another member and purposefully misreading his posts.
Good point about toxicity. Now, how do you know the posts are being intentionally misread or are you just making precisely the same sort of toxic accusations that you're accusing others of?
We know a couple of things, and only these things:
1. There's a rather short and unclear message posted to the mailing list.
2. There's some private interactions with the trustees which the organisers have no (yet?) given permission to publish which make the trustees inclined to say "no".
So I'm going to go with a qualified no as well, until I get more information on what the actual plans are.
-Ed
Penguat
Thanks,