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Pokemon translation

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djandus

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Jul 13, 2012, 9:12:24 PM7/13/12
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So, I've started working on translating Pokemon Red, closely followed by Pokemon Blue. This is not to say that I have merely started translating the words, but I have the full capabilities to edit and assemble Pokemon Red ROMs. As such, I've been firing up the pokemon pages.

It was designed with the intent of allowing communication about pokemon, including naming all the pokemon themselves. Of the first 150, 56 are left to me named by his cmene setup. (Though it seems somepony intends to make brivla as well for some reason...?)

Other than that and the list of types on that page, I need to translate the items and attacks, which I have already listed (and translated a few) here:

(Both pages have links to each other.)

I'm planning on working through the dialogue and various menus while others work through those lists. The primary goals I have for the project are to have good, consistent translations with clear, informative terms, to make it a good lesson in and of itself.

Also, a reminder that this is totally for fun. I've heard many a time of a rather awesome CLLv1.1 that could use some official work ;)

Anywho, feel free to discuss here what you like/dislike about my plans thus far. I've been detailing everything on the wiki page, so it should be very clear.

Jacob Errington

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Jul 14, 2012, 1:11:08 AM7/14/12
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I'd like to help out ! :)

On 13 July 2012 21:12, djandus <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, I've started working on translating Pokemon Red, closely followed by
> Pokemon Blue. This is not to say that I have merely started translating the
> words, but I have the full capabilities to edit and assemble Pokemon Red
> ROMs. As such, I've been firing up the pokemon pages.
>
> Some already know of
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/selci%27a+sera%27a+lai+pokemon.
> It was designed with the intent of allowing communication about pokemon,
> including naming all the pokemon themselves. Of the first 150, 56 are left
> to me named by his cmene setup. (Though it seems somepony intends to make
> brivla as well for some reason...?)
>

I'm of the opinion that they should be zi'evla of the type {x1 is a
[pokemon] of type x2, level x3, and trainer x4.} Maybe an x5, but I
don't know what for. I'm also not sure what's more important: level or
type. Perhaps the trainer place isn't a smart idea. What do we put
there if the pokemon is wild? ({noda} is nogood.)

mu'o mi'e la tsani

> Other than that and the list of types on that page, I need to translate the
> items and attacks, which I have already listed (and translated a few) here:
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/selci%27a+sera%27a+lai+pokemon.
>
> (Both pages have links to each other.)
>
> I'm planning on working through the dialogue and various menus while others
> work through those lists. The primary goals I have for the project are to
> have good, consistent translations with clear, informative terms, to make it
> a good lesson in and of itself.
>
> Also, a reminder that this is totally for fun. I've heard many a time of a
> rather awesome CLLv1.1 that could use some official work ;)
>
> Anywho, feel free to discuss here what you like/dislike about my plans thus
> far. I've been detailing everything on the wiki page, so it should be very
> clear.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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djandus

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Jul 14, 2012, 2:14:05 AM7/14/12
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On Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:11:08 AM UTC-5, tsani wrote:
I'd like to help out ! :)
Awesome -- feel free to join in the fun!
Just dive in and feel free to leave comments/questions places. 

(Though it seems somepony intends to make
> brivla as well for some reason...?)
>

I'm of the opinion that they should be zi'evla of the type {x1 is a
[pokemon] of type x2, level x3, and trainer x4.} Maybe an x5, but I
don't know what for. I'm also not sure what's more important: level or
type. Perhaps the trainer place isn't a smart idea. What do we put
there if the pokemon is wild? ({noda} is nogood.)

So, this is totally making more sense now. I immediately conceded to having item names be brivla, because that's inherently awesome and dumb of me to not do earlier. However, I feel entirely certain that the pokemon should have both cmevla and brivla versions. And the cmene are more important. Here's why -- I catch a Pikachu, and the game's first question is whether to give it a nickname. Provided I don't name it, Pikachu is fully intended to be it's name.

So if I were to really get in gear and somehow be ready to put a version out when there was only time to get either cmevla or brivla of pokemon names, I'd take the cmevla first.

However, I think it will be really cool to have pokemon brivla as well. That would really show off a lot of Lojbanic awesomeness.

back to the issue
suppose we make up a broda for Pikachu -- broda2 as type is very useless, as the type does not vary from Pikachu to Pikachu, but from pokemon species to species.

Note that la selpa'i was suggesting a fu'ivla for pokemon: {pokmone}

So, how about:
pokmone: (rafsi: pok) x1 is a pokemon of species x2 and level x3
pokjutsi: x1 is a pokemon species of type(s) x2 with evolutions/family x3
broda poi pokjutsi: x1 is a [broda] at level x2 trained by x3
"Wild [broda] appeared!" can be "lo cilce broda ku tolcanci" or similar. Tanru can affect the semantics of place structures enough for that.
Evolutions can be described with {binxo}, and I would even go as far as to describe families as
lo lanzu be la .tsirespas. ce'o la .xederespas. ce'o la .musirespas. bei lo nu binxo
where, of course, we would prefer brivla for lo pokjutsi

mu'o mi'e .djos.

iesk

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Jul 14, 2012, 3:42:34 AM7/14/12
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Hi,

I don't have the slightest idea what this game is that you are translating, but I just looked at http://www.lojban.org/tiki/lai+pokemon. and noticed some impossible me'evla, eg pezciblus, ledcinkis, and cibcautup. Cf. http://dag.github.com/cll/3/6/

I didn't want to clutter up the tiki page, so I write it here.

Sorry if this is sounds like not the most constructive criticism. :) Keep up whatever you're doing. :)

iesk

vitci'i

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Jul 14, 2012, 5:29:56 AM7/14/12
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On 07/13/2012 08:12 PM, djandus wrote:
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/selci%27a+sera%27a+lai+pokemon.
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/selci%27a+sera%27a+lai+pokemon.

Both of those links seem to be broken. Is it just me?

Craig Daniel

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Jul 14, 2012, 9:50:34 AM7/14/12
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The final dot is part of the URL.

selpa'i

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Jul 14, 2012, 10:19:57 AM7/14/12
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Am 14.07.2012 03:12, schrieb djandus:
It was designed with the intent of allowing communication about pokemon, including naming all the pokemon themselves. Of the first 150, 56 are left to me named by his cmene setup.
(Though it seems somepony intends to make brivla as well for some reason...?)

I suggested brivla because each Pokemon is basically a seperate species, and there exist many of each. You can say "I caught a Pikachu" just like you say "I bought a cat". In addition to that, brivla are less cumbersome, as they don't require dots around them, while you can still use them as names if you want, using {la}. And on top of that, it lets you define a place structure for them, like:
x1 is a Pikachu at level x2

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- 
.i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u 
.i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla 
.i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata


Jacob Errington

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Jul 14, 2012, 1:11:45 PM7/14/12
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On 14 July 2012 02:14, djandus <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:11:08 AM UTC-5, tsani wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to help out ! :)
>
> Awesome -- feel free to join in the fun!
> Just dive in and feel free to leave comments/questions places.
>>
>>
>> (Though it seems somepony intends to make
>> > brivla as well for some reason...?)
>> >
>>
>> I'm of the opinion that they should be zi'evla of the type {x1 is a
>> [pokemon] of type x2, level x3, and trainer x4.} Maybe an x5, but I
>> don't know what for. I'm also not sure what's more important: level or
>> type. Perhaps the trainer place isn't a smart idea. What do we put
>> there if the pokemon is wild? ({noda} is nogood.)
>>
> So, this is totally making more sense now. I immediately conceded to having
> item names be brivla, because that's inherently awesome and dumb of me to
> not do earlier. However, I feel entirely certain that the pokemon should
> have both cmevla and brivla versions. And the cmene are more important.
> Here's why -- I catch a Pikachu, and the game's first question is whether to
> give it a nickname. Provided I don't name it, Pikachu is fully intended to
> be it's name.
>
> So if I were to really get in gear and somehow be ready to put a version out
> when there was only time to get either cmevla or brivla of pokemon names,
> I'd take the cmevla first.
>

Of course, when the pokemon is caught, it's species name becomes its
given name by default. However, there's no issue with having a brivla
name. In fact, I much *prefer* brivla names over cmevla names in
general (my name is {tsani} after all).

> However, I think it will be really cool to have pokemon brivla as well. That
> would really show off a lot of Lojbanic awesomeness.
>

Indeed, and, like selpa'i said, we can then say stuff like "I caught a
Pikachu!" -> {mi kavbu lo piktcu uo!}.

> back to the issue
> suppose we make up a broda for Pikachu -- broda2 as type is very useless, as
> the type does not vary from Pikachu to Pikachu, but from pokemon species to
> species.
>

That's true, but it does give us a convenient way to ask "what is the
type of X". I agree, though, it's not very useful, and should be
removed.

> Note that la selpa'i was suggesting a fu'ivla for pokemon: {pokmone}
>

Yes, selpa'i had mentioned it in #lojban (why don't you come hang out
there with us ? :) )

> So, how about:
> pokmone: (rafsi: pok) x1 is a pokemon of species x2 and level x3

That's a great definition, but we can't assign rafsi to fu'ivla, not
to mention that we're technically not allowed to make up rafsi at all
(it violates the baseline). (I do say "technically" because we do it
all the time anyway.)

> pokjutsi: x1 is a pokemon species of type(s) x2 with evolutions/family x3

The pair [kj] isn't legal, not to mention that if it were legal, this
would be a lujvo with an unpredictable place structure, which isn't
good. We can insert arbitrary -r- hyphens though (because zi'evla
cannot contain -y-.)

> broda poi pokjutsi: x1 is a [broda] at level x2 trained by x3

Each pokemon brivla should probably encode the level. e.g. piktcu = x1
is a level x2 pikachu.
Pokemon brivla shouldn't include the trainer.
That makes {broda poi pokjutsi} unuseful, not to mention that it isn't
grammatical.

I suggest {pokrlei} for "pokemon type", in the sense of electric, ice,
water, fire, etc.
pokrlei = x1 is the type of pokemon x2.
Using this, we can say {lo piktcu cu se pokrlei lo dikca} "Pikachu is
an electric-type pokemon."

I suggest {pokrtro} for "pokemon trainer". I don't know what other
places it should have, if any. I don't think we should include the
trainer place in any of the pokemon brivla, in favour of using {fi'o
poktro}.

> "Wild [broda] appeared!" can be "lo cilce broda ku tolcanci" or similar.

That seems good.

> Tanru can affect the semantics of place structures enough for that.
> Evolutions can be described with {binxo}, and I would even go as far as to
> describe families as
> lo lanzu be la .tsirespas. ce'o la .xederespas. ce'o la .musirespas. bei lo
> nu binxo

I suggest {pokrbi'o} for "evolve". pokrbi'o = x1 evolves into x2 under
conditions x3. (giving a specific item, or reaching a certain level.)

mu'o mi'e la tsani

> --
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selpa'i

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Jul 14, 2012, 1:41:33 PM7/14/12
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Am 14.07.2012 19:11, schrieb Jacob Errington:
> On 14 July 2012 02:14, djandus <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Note that la selpa'i was suggesting a fu'ivla for pokemon: {pokmone}
>>
>
> Yes, selpa'i had mentioned it in #lojban (why don't you come hang out
> there with us ? :) )

I second that. :)

>
>
>> So, how about:
>> pokmone: (rafsi: pok) x1 is a pokemon of species x2 and level x3
>
> That's a great definition, but we can't assign rafsi to fu'ivla, not
> to mention that we're technically not allowed to make up rafsi at all
> (it violates the baseline). (I do say "technically" because we do it
> all the time anyway.)

Yes, I suggested that -pok- be the rafsi of pokmone. This is perfectly
fine, because, in the world of Pokemon, a Pokemon is a completely normal
thing, making it natural for it to have a rafsi. In fact, it should even
have a gismu, but I like pokmone more than something like pokme, because
it more closely resembles the original name. Anyway, within the Pokemon
world, -pok- should definitely be considered a normal rafsi.


>
>
>> pokjutsi: x1 is a pokemon species of type(s) x2 with evolutions/family x3
>
> The pair [kj] isn't legal, not to mention that if it were legal, this
> would be a lujvo with an unpredictable place structure, which isn't
> good. We can insert arbitrary -r- hyphens though (because zi'evla
> cannot contain -y-.)

Except it is isn't a zi'evla (for the reasons mentioned above). It's a
lujvo. {pokyjutsi}. I think the above definition is good.


>
>> broda poi pokjutsi: x1 is a [broda] at level x2 trained by x3
>
> Each pokemon brivla should probably encode the level. e.g. piktcu = x1
> is a level x2 pikachu.
> Pokemon brivla shouldn't include the trainer.
> That makes {broda poi pokjutsi} unuseful, not to mention that it isn't
> grammatical.
>
> I suggest {pokrlei} for "pokemon type", in the sense of electric, ice,
> water, fire, etc.
> pokrlei = x1 is the type of pokemon x2.
> Using this, we can say {lo piktcu cu se pokrlei lo dikca} "Pikachu is
> an electric-type pokemon."

I agree with everything, but I would again use {poklei} instead.


>
> I suggest {pokrtro} for "pokemon trainer". I don't know what other
> places it should have, if any. I don't think we should include the
> trainer place in any of the pokemon brivla, in favour of using {fi'o
> poktro}.
{poktro}.
Maaaaybe one could include the trainer type (there are 33 trainer types
in Gen I: e.g. Biker, Swimmer, Beauty), but they are probably not
important enough to get a place. Instead, when a "Swimmer wants to
fight!", you'd just say {lo limna cu damba djica} anyway.
So x1 is a Pokemon Trainer training Pokemon x2 [in event x3]

>
>
>> "Wild [broda] appeared!" can be "lo cilce broda ku tolcanci" or similar.
>
> That seems good.
>
>> Tanru can affect the semantics of place structures enough for that.
>> Evolutions can be described with {binxo}, and I would even go as far as to
>> describe families as
>> lo lanzu be la .tsirespas. ce'o la .xederespas. ce'o la .musirespas. bei lo
>> nu binxo
>
> I suggest {pokrbi'o} for "evolve". pokrbi'o = x1 evolves into x2 under
> conditions x3. (giving a specific item, or reaching a certain level.)

I like pure binxo. Evolving is so normal that nobody would call it
Pokemon evolution.
However, there is also farvi, which seems more precise.

It also let's you talk about about "families": lo ve farvi are all the
stages of a Pokemon.

djandus

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Jul 14, 2012, 3:34:38 PM7/14/12
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However, there's no issue with having a brivla name.
I forget this more often than I care to admit.

Anywho, I don't know fu'ivla morphology at all so I am totally at others' mercy when it comes to naming pokemon with brivla. In other words, where I deprecated the cmevla for the items list, please still keep two columns in the pokemon list. That way, if I come close to completing the game and that's the last holdup, I can finish it myself.

I agree, though, it's not very useful, and should be removed.
Just to clarify, this was a bit of me making a statement about brivla definitions. The place structure is for things that can actually change within the definition, and there's no such thing as a water-type Pikachu, only an electric-type. If I were putting it in jbovlaste, I'd say
x1 is a Pikachu [electric-type pokemon] at level x2 trained by x3
(alternatively, the type would be in the notes)

In conversation, one could say
.i .ui mi kavbu lo broda
.i broda .uanai .i lo broda ku pokrjutsi ma

Also, {piktcu} is a proper lujvo, so you were using it as a nonce word and isn't what you'd put for the actual term, right?


Yes, selpa'i had mentioned it in #lojban (why don't you come hang out
there with us ? :) )
Time -- sadly, I don't have enough of it. However, jbonunsla has made me really get back into wanting to get on IRC. (That is, I'm back in the "Lojban! Cannot get enough of it!" mode. Have to get my fix!) So you may see me every now and then :)

we're technically not allowed to make up rafsi at all
That makes total sense. So, how about we claim to only use the rafsi within the game universe? (That is: We made up this rafsi for the pokemon games! It is only to be used to keep within character limits, so it is inadvisable to use it outside the game. We hold no responsibility on anypony using it in conversation, and our translation is immediately deprecated if the BPFK decides to assign it to a word.)

Keep in mind, I say this because I know nothing about fu'ivla construction. If you can figure out a way around using {pok} in any of our terms that keeps the character limit, be my guest.

> pokrjutsi: x1 is a pokemon species of type(s) x2 with evolutions/family x3
fixed :)

I'm getting better at catching disallowed consonant clusters, but I still rely on jvozba regularly.

> broda poi pokjutsi: x1 is a [broda] at level x2 trained by x3

Each pokemon brivla should probably encode the level. e.g. piktcu = x1
is a level x2 pikachu.
Pokemon brivla shouldn't include the trainer.
That makes {broda poi pokjutsi} unuseful, not to mention that it isn't
grammatical.
Sorry, I was trying to say "some brivla that is used for a pokemon species." I was trying to restrict broda, not make some claim that {lo broda poi pokjutsi} would be a useful phrase.

Now that I think of it, I really can't find much use/need/backing/reasoning behind putting a trainer place in.

I suggest {pokrlei} for "pokemon type", in the sense of electric, ice,
water, fire, etc.
pokrlei = x1 is the type of pokemon x2.
Using this, we can say {lo piktcu cu se pokrlei lo dikca} "Pikachu is
an electric-type pokemon."
And what's wrong with {lo broda ku pokrjutsi lo dikca}?
I would normally be not terribly opposed, but we are inventing very niche jargon here, and it would be best to have a few very versatile words rather than a lot that are used even less often.
(keep in mind, {lo se pokrjutsi} is useful, too)

I suggest {pokrtro} for "pokemon trainer".
Definitely. Yes to nonce modals. Yes to awesome.
However, I would like to start with {pokrjitro}. Changing between the two options is very easy going to {pokrtro}. If it's actually obnoxious, we'll just use {pokrtro}. In the meantime, let's give the fuller, longer words a chance.

(I have two other reasons for this:
I want this game to be a good teacher, a game that very young ones (perhaps Robin's kids?) could play someday and get a lot out of. It's far better to teach full gismu than rafsi.
I also want to reemphasize that we are creating a jargon space of words. Jargon is well-known for being obnoxious to get the hang of when being introduced to a concept or community. Imagine if 90% of the time you use {pokrtro} somepony goes ".uanai" and asks for what it means; it's far more likely for a first-time use of {pokrjitro} somepony goes "I know {jitro}! I get that." Also remember that in English, the primary jargon word was "poke" -- everything else that was jargon was some combination with it to make it obvious what it meant. That's what made it even easier to pick up.)

Basically, treat our {pok} psuedo-rafsi like {tol}, {sel}, or other rafsi that are frequently added to full gismu to nuance the meaning. This also means I'd like most instances to not alter the place structures, merely assign it to be pokemon-related. Thus:
pokrjitro: x1 has control over/directs pokemon x2 in x3 (probably pokemon battle)

I suggest {pokrbi'o} for "evolve". pokrbi'o = x1 evolves into x2 under
conditions x3. (giving a specific item, or reaching a certain level.)
Again, let's try {pokrbinxo} until it gets obnoxious. Honestly, I question the usefulness of adding {pokr} here. There's a useful difference between "pokemon trainer" and "trainer" but not between "evolves" and "transforms".

Note that I plan on translating "What? [ko'a] is evolving!" into {.ue .i ko'a ca binxo}. I see nothing gained by changing that to {.ue .i ko'a ca pokrbinxo}

However, this is the other reason I like using {pokr} in the same manner as {tol}, {sel}, etc. I can use normal {binxo} and you can use {pokrbinxo} or even {pokrbi'o} and neither of us will really mind or get confused in the conversation. Your words don't even have to be explicitly defined, provided I've "experienced" an evolution process while playing the game.

I'm going to shove these terms into a section of ((lai pokemon.))

mu'o mi'e djos

djandus

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Jul 14, 2012, 3:47:28 PM7/14/12
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On Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:41:33 PM UTC-5, selpa'i wrote:
Except it is isn't a zi'evla (for the reasons mentioned above).
I really like your reasoning, but the words we're defining right now are primarily for ((lai pokemon.)), the words that we would want to use in the real world for discussing pokemon. ((selci'a sera'a lai pokemon.)), the terms used in the game, are another matter. Most of the time, there, I'm thinking that {pok} isn't as necessary because of the same reason -- it's so commonplace that if I say a pokemon changed {ko'a binxo} I would first assume an evolution.

Also, you have to remember that even though we make up terms for the game, should it be played, the terms will probably leak out. For example, I really like the idea story-wise of inventing a gismu like pokme for pokemon and the writing dialogue and story where the characters use it. It would make it feel very real and such. However, a reprecussion would be that players/readers would be very inclined to use pokme in real conversation, even if a fu'ivla existed, as it's the term they would see more often and have to interpret. In short, save it for the fanfiction ;P

I like pure binxo. Evolving is so normal that nopony would call it 

Pokemon evolution.
However, there is also farvi, which seems more precise.
ooh, farvi is very nice. However, what's the difference between farvi1 and farvi3?

It also let's you talk about about "families": lo ve farvi are all the
stages of a Pokemon.
Yes, that's most excellent.

mu'o mi'e djos.

selpa'i

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Jul 14, 2012, 3:57:11 PM7/14/12
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Am 14.07.2012 21:47, schrieb djandus:
On Saturday, July 14, 2012 12:41:33 PM UTC-5, selpa'i wrote:
Except it is isn't a zi'evla (for the reasons mentioned above).
I really like your reasoning, but the words we're defining right now are primarily for ((lai pokemon.)), the words that we would want to use in the real world for discussing pokemon. ((selci'a sera'a lai pokemon.)), the terms used in the game, are another matter.

Oh, I was talking about in-game language only. I'm only interested in getting this game done and actually playing it.


Most of the time, there, I'm thinking that {pok} isn't as necessary because of the same reason -- it's so commonplace that if I say a pokemon changed {ko'a binxo} I would first assume an evolution.

Also, you have to remember that even though we make up terms for the game, should it be played, the terms will probably leak out. For example, I really like the idea story-wise of inventing a gismu like pokme for pokemon and the writing dialogue and story where the characters use it. It would make it feel very real and such. However, a reprecussion would be that players/readers would be very inclined to use pokme in real conversation, even if a fu'ivla existed, as it's the term they would see more often and have to interpret. In short, save it for the fanfiction ;P

You really don't need to worry about that. The in-world (in-game) usage is way more important than any of the possible repurcussions you listed. It's really not a big deal to create a word such as pokme, and we're definitely safe using pokmone. Realness is priority number 1 if the goal is to create a great game experience.

vitci'i

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Jul 14, 2012, 4:18:41 PM7/14/12
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On 07/14/2012 02:47 PM, djandus wrote:
> ooh, farvi is very nice. However, what's the difference between farvi1 and
> farvi3?

I read it as farvi1 being the aspect of identity that does not change
and farvi3 being the state changed out of. Thus, if Bob started as a
Caterpie and eventually became a Butterfree, then {la bab farvi la
batrfri la katrpai la metypad}.

djandus

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Jul 14, 2012, 5:22:54 PM7/14/12
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Then it sounds like {te farvi} is often what we want to use.

"What? [ko'a] is evolving!" as {.ue .i ko'a ca te farvi} -- sound good?

djandus

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Jul 14, 2012, 5:25:50 PM7/14/12
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Nevermind, I just remembered that that's going to be using a name anyway

{.ue .i lo broda ca farvi}

I'll also be working on importing battle statements into the wiki page today.

Jacob Errington

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Jul 14, 2012, 5:38:59 PM7/14/12
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Of course, that's the #1 goal, but even in books, the narrator will
use only standard vocabulary or will distort the narrative to suit the
reader. Consider that case of a book narrated in English in which the
characters however speak Mandarin: "Hi! What did you do before she
came over?" he said.
"he" presumably said it in Mandarin, but because the book is being
read by people who don't speak that language, then it's necessary to
change the quotation, which doesn't event reflect what is actually
being said!
By that same logic, even though in-world, the characters might use
loads of local/specific vocabulary, we *are* allowed to *not* use that
vocabulary.
Additionally, if we do use -pok- as a rafsi for pokmone/pokme (I do
prefer {pokmone}) we *can* expect all those pseudo-lujvo and such to
escape into the real world. Now of course, we *are* allowed to do
this: who's going to stop us? No one. Lojban is GNU/Loglan after all.
*we* can do whatever we like with the language; the BPFK aren't going
to send C&D orders at us.

I say, let using "illegal" words be on the consciences of the players,
if they so choose to use those words outside of the game. It's not
like making them into zi'evla is hard: stick an -r- hyphen right in
the rafsi border.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>
> --
> .i pau mi me ma .i pa mai ko mi jungau la'e di'u
> .i ba bo mi va'o lo nu nelci lo nu me ma kau cu barkla
> .i va'o lo nu na nelci cu denpa ti lo nu mi drata
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.

Pierre Abbat

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Jul 14, 2012, 5:44:15 PM7/14/12
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On Saturday 14 July 2012 13:11:45 Jacob Errington wrote:
> Indeed, and, like selpa'i said, we can then say stuff like "I caught a
> Pikachu!" -> {mi kavbu lo piktcu uo!}.

Your use of "piktcu" needs to be commented on :)

On Saturday 14 July 2012 15:34:38 djandus wrote:
> > > pokrjutsi: x1 is a pokemon species of type(s) x2 with evolutions/family
> >
> > x3
>
> fixed :)

If you're making a lujvo, that would be "pokyjutsi"; "pokrjutsi" is a type-3
fu'ivla. However, using "pok" as the rafsi for "pokmone" is contrary to the
rules of the language. Some fu'ivla have a rafsi formed by deleting the last
letter (which is necessarily a vowel), but no fu'ivla has a rafsi shorter
than that, and "pokmon" cannot be a rafsi because it's the concatenation of
two rafsi. I'd rather see you use "pok" as the rafsi of "pokme".

Pierre
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

Jacob Errington

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Jul 14, 2012, 5:51:03 PM7/14/12
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On 14 July 2012 17:44, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> On Saturday 14 July 2012 13:11:45 Jacob Errington wrote:
>> Indeed, and, like selpa'i said, we can then say stuff like "I caught a
>> Pikachu!" -> {mi kavbu lo piktcu uo!}.
>
> Your use of "piktcu" needs to be commented on :)

I see what you did there ;)
Yeah, I just picked a phonologically similar brivla at random,
disregarding that it be a proper lujvo.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

>
> On Saturday 14 July 2012 15:34:38 djandus wrote:
>> > > pokrjutsi: x1 is a pokemon species of type(s) x2 with evolutions/family
>> >
>> > x3
>>
>> fixed :)
>
> If you're making a lujvo, that would be "pokyjutsi"; "pokrjutsi" is a type-3
> fu'ivla. However, using "pok" as the rafsi for "pokmone" is contrary to the
> rules of the language. Some fu'ivla have a rafsi formed by deleting the last
> letter (which is necessarily a vowel), but no fu'ivla has a rafsi shorter
> than that, and "pokmon" cannot be a rafsi because it's the concatenation of
> two rafsi. I'd rather see you use "pok" as the rafsi of "pokme".
>
> Pierre
> --
> li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.

Joe Anderson

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Jul 14, 2012, 5:56:55 PM7/14/12
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On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com> wrote:
I say, let using "illegal" words be on the consciences of the players,
if they so choose to use those words outside of the game. It's not
like making them into zi'evla is hard: stick an -r- hyphen right in
the rafsi border.
This is my policy as well; however, I want to avoid the zi'evla issue, as I expect (and will encourage) the game to be played by those who wouldn't know how to convert it to zi'evla. The -pok- issue, on the other hand, is obvious -- the user knows it's an invented term and will only come across issues if ko'a knows how rafsi work.

selpa'i

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Jul 14, 2012, 7:13:31 PM7/14/12
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Am 14.07.2012 23:44, schrieb Pierre Abbat:
> If you're making a lujvo, that would be "pokyjutsi"; "pokrjutsi" is a type-3
> fu'ivla. However, using "pok" as the rafsi for "pokmone" is contrary to the
> rules of the language. Some fu'ivla have a rafsi formed by deleting the last
> letter (which is necessarily a vowel), but no fu'ivla has a rafsi shorter
> than that, and "pokmon" cannot be a rafsi because it's the concatenation of
> two rafsi. I'd rather see you use "pok" as the rafsi of "pokme".

That's true. If you strictly follow the normal rules, -pok- cannot be
the rafsi of pokmone, but we are allowed flexibility as artists. The
strict rafsi would be -pokmone'y-. Personally, I'm okay with both
pokmone and pokme. As I already said, it only seems natural that a gismu
would exist for "Pokemon" in a world where they are everywhere, plus it
would be more closely following the rules of Lojban where only gismu can
have 3-letter rafsi.

djandus

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Jul 15, 2012, 12:16:32 AM7/15/12
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It appears I forgot to respond to this.

On Saturday, July 14, 2012 2:42:34 AM UTC-5, iesk wrote:

I just looked and noticed some impossible me'evla

Yeah, that page was the original one I found. It was largely one pony's work, and I noticed in its history that it was occasionally corrected by somepony else for bad consonant clusters, so I figured there would be some bad ones in there.

Thanks for checking :)

vitci'i

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Jul 15, 2012, 12:29:23 AM7/15/12
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On 07/14/2012 11:16 PM, djandus wrote:
> Yeah, that page was the original one I found. It was largely one pony's
> work,

ma ve radji'i du'u le za'e xirpe'o cu finti kei

djandus

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Jul 15, 2012, 12:42:26 AM7/15/12
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.u'usai
.i mi pilno la'o gy. Chrome Extension called Ponify Everything gy. lo nu zdile
.i ra so'oroi galfi lo se ciska be mi

vitci'i

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Jul 15, 2012, 12:52:28 AM7/15/12
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.oicu'i

djandus

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Jul 15, 2012, 12:52:36 AM7/15/12
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After much thought, I've decided that the most elegant/sensible solution in-game is to use a gismu for "Pokemon"

However, I'm not entirely convinced it should be {pokme}. Given that I've heard "Pokemon" said many ways, the possible lojbanizations I see, in order of most-often-heard by me:
pokiman
pokyman
pokeman

Given these, I think {pokma} is an obvious choice. (Hell, if you cheat and put a buffer vowel in there...)

So, I'm planning on using the in-game term:
pokma -pok-

djandus

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Jul 15, 2012, 2:07:07 AM7/15/12
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Before anypony gets really confuzzled, I added the terms a little we made up to ((lai pokemon.))... without really adding them like you would expect.

I based them all of {pokrmone} and built selbri to fit the "lujvo" we made.
In every case, you can chop off a bunch and just take the mane gismu and use {pokrbroda} or the corresponding rafsi, etc, and easily get our cheat words, with the exact same definitions.

That way, we can cheat and use {pokrbroda} while having a primary document consistent with the language.

la .lindar.

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Jul 15, 2012, 2:15:16 AM7/15/12
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"What? [ko'a] is evolving!" as {.ue .i ko'a ca te farvi} -- sound good?

You want that {.ue} inside the jufra otherwise it sounds weird.

Keep in mind that you absolutely do not need to word-for-word translate. Take some creative liberties and and think of what would seem more natural for a Lojban-speaker to say in that situation. Word-for-word translations will come out bad 90% of the time I can tell you from personal experience. If you don't believe me, try translating something word-for-word back into English, especially Lojban.

Good luck, my little jbofanvas. 

la .lindar.

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Jul 15, 2012, 2:18:38 AM7/15/12
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Also, did anybody actually think to translate the name instead of just Lojbanising it?

daskycizda'u / daskyda'u

"Pocket Monster" > "Poketto Monsutaa" > "Poketto Monsutaa" > "Pokemon"

daski zei danlu > daskyda'u

djandus

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Jul 15, 2012, 2:49:05 AM7/15/12
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On Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:18:38 AM UTC-5, la .lindar. wrote:
"Pocket Monster" > "Poketto Monsutaa" > "Poketto Monsutaa" > "Pokemon"
Whoops. I always thought "Poké" was some made-up, trademarked term. I knew "mon" was for monster, though!
 
Heck yes. {daskyda'u} should totally be mentioned as well. (I just added it to the wiki.)

I still really like using {pokma} in-game, as it really makes a lot of sense in that context. That, and {pok} is far too helpful for character limits.

selpa'i

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Jul 15, 2012, 6:24:31 AM7/15/12
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The problem is that you based it on (American) English pronunciation. The original name in Japanse was poketto monsutaa, so if you were to pick the beginning of the second word, it would have to be pokmo.
pokme was suggested because it preserves the e from "poke", which is the most important part of the name. So I would personally prefer pokme and even pokmo over pokma.

djandus

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Jul 15, 2012, 7:15:15 AM7/15/12
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Okay, so I add to my list:
poketo.monsuta
pokiman
pokyman
pokeman

I'm still wondering how the "e" is supposedly the most important letter. Or why you would only take one letter from half the meaning. Or why you're stressing that the Japanese is important to base it on when they're just loan words from English anyway. But then "Pocket Monster" gives you
pokt.manstyr

All it all, it little matters. I'm using it now, and if you somehow convince me it should be any different by the end, I can run a find-replace. Doubtful.

selpa'i

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Jul 15, 2012, 8:12:55 AM7/15/12
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Am 15.07.2012 13:15, schrieb djandus:
Okay, so I add to my list:
poketo.monsuta
pokiman
pokyman
pokeman

I'm still wondering how the "e" is supposedly the most important letter. Or why you would only take one letter from half the meaning. Or why you're stressing that the Japanese is important to base it on when they're just loan words from English anyway. But then "Pocket Monster" gives you
pokt.manstyr

Again, this could just as well be pokytmonsty or a variation thereof. Also, listing three American pronunciations is very biased. If anything, compare the six source languages pronunciations of the word.

But I should have been more clear about the e. I didn't say the e itself was the most important part. "poke" is. We have Pokeballs, Pokecenter, Pokewhatnot. That's why I thought it would be good to keep the e from poke.

mu'o mi'e la slepa'i

djandus

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Jul 15, 2012, 8:36:04 AM7/15/12
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All right. A summary of things to work on:
  • Pokemon names: 150 brivla, if you know you're morphology. 56 cmene, which are back-burner. The cmene already written have a few errors, more than likely.
  • Item names: I finished converting all the terms to selbri. About halfway done. I also cleaned up the comments. As part of that, I'm moving these comments of mine here:
    • For the pokéballs, I kind of wanted to brag with Lojban a little. With the numerical+pokeball lujvo, all of the proper meaning and parallelism is conveyed very concisely, with a bit of a pun on "Master Ball" (it's both the last ball and the ball that catches all, so I found {rolpokyboi} particularly appropriate) Otherwise, I find it very difficult to actually translate things like "great" and "ultra" and "master" in a way that conveys obviously which is better than which.
    • I'm having trouble with "badge" -- right now, I'm debating between si'asni and selji'a -- any ideas?
  • Attack names: I've barely touched these, and there's a lot of them.
    • I figured out how to get things like "metronome" to work with the {ko'a cu broda} wording.
    • Have fun with "splash". My brother was joking to make it {malba'i jaurgunta}, {citmle jaurgunta}, or similar. I would like to emphasize the obvious here and say that the selbri description should be objectively describing the action of the attack -- describing it's effectiveness would be 4th-wall-breaking and/or subjecting your own opinion.
  • Dialogue/Other: This is my focus. I've given up for now on posting dialogue to be translated, and instead plan on posting them as I translate them, maybe uploading the rom as I finish certain sections. I've properly edited the font and a few other programming tasks, and have moved on to almost finish the intro.

selpa'i

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Jul 15, 2012, 8:59:53 AM7/15/12
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Am 15.07.2012 14:36, schrieb djandus:
All right. A summary of things to work on:
  • [...]
  • Dialogue/Other: This is my focus. I've given up for now on posting dialogue to be translated, and instead plan on posting them as I translate them, maybe uploading the rom as I finish certain sections. I've properly edited the font and a few other programming tasks, and have moved on to almost finish the intro.

    I would also very much like to translate the actual dialogue. There is a lot of it, and we'll finish faster when more people work on it at the same time. So could you please upload the English dialogue? Thanks.

    mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

    Sid

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    Jul 15, 2012, 10:10:10 AM7/15/12
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    What version of the game will you be translating? The original GB one
    or maybe one of the GBA ones? (IMO, translating one of the GBA ones
    would be the best, since it doesn't seem to be too hard to romhack, at
    least from what little I've seen)

    mi'e cntr

    selpa'i

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    Jul 15, 2012, 11:39:42 AM7/15/12
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    Am 15.07.2012 16:10, schrieb Sid:
    > What version of the game will you be translating? The original GB one
    > or maybe one of the GBA ones? (IMO, translating one of the GBA ones
    > would be the best, since it doesn't seem to be too hard to romhack, at
    > least from what little I've seen)

    Generation I (blue, red, yellow). It says so on the page, too.

    djandus

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    Jul 15, 2012, 3:29:14 PM7/15/12
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    On Sunday, July 15, 2012 7:59:53 AM UTC-5, selpa'i wrote:
    I would also very much like to translate the actual dialogue. There is a lot of it, and we'll finish faster when more ponies work on it at the same time. So could you please upload the English dialogue? Thanks.
    Agreed. The issue was, what I originally thought I could upload quickly is actually very broken up and disjointed. I just found a very good section to upload, however -- the Pokedex entries. They're all together and have no replacement words to break them up. Also, there are some other sections I found that are all together. They'll be uploaded soon.

    Also, very much the purpose of the wiki is so that ponies who want to help can, and I can just ignore all of that and focus on the parts that are too troublesome to upload. However, I still really want everypony to check over my translations, so that's why I brought up the uploading of ROM.