A new Lojbanic wiki (LMW). On the threshold of the 25th anniversary of Lojban

[la gleki]

Basically it's MediaWiki (the same engine as in Wikipedia). I also installed rss and wysiwyg (for editing a-la text processor) plugins.

Let's test it.

What would you like to see in it? What to change in formatting of pages?

http://www.lojban.overt-ops.com/index.php?title=ralju_ckupau

[.alyn.post.]

Will you describe what the mission statement (for lack of a better
term) for this wiki is? Why would I edit at this address rather
than the wiki at lojban.org? What makes them different?

-Alan

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 10:47:47AM -0700, la gleki wrote:
> Basically it's MediaWiki (the same engine as in Wikipedia). I also
> installed rss and wysiwyg (for editing a-la text processor) plugins.
> Let's test it.
> What would you like to see in it? What to change in formatting of pages?

> [1]http://www.lojban.overt-ops.com/index.php?title=ralju_ckupau
>
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> Visible links
> 1. http://www.lojban.overt-ops.com/index.php?title=ralju_ckupau
> 2. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/W6_s0cBPxi4J

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[la .lindar.]

On Monday, 24 September 2012 11:00:45 UTC-7, .alyn.post. wrote:

Will you describe what the mission statement (for lack of a better
term) for this wiki is?  Why would I edit at this address rather
than the wiki at lojban.org?  What makes them different?

-Alan

The tiki on the primary Lojban website is... well... rubbish. (YMMV)

MediaWiki seems to provide better editing support and, most importantly, a place to shove all of our discussions. It's also nice to have a brand new start! So, we were hoping to get something functional and solid, and then once everything looks lovely, dump it over to lojban.org and use the old tiki as a historical archive. Even if we don't use it to replace lojban.org's tiki several of us are going to start the effort to organise things so we stop repeating arguments and instead have well-documented pages about each and every word.

 

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 10:47:47AM -0700, la gleki wrote:
>    Basically it's MediaWiki (the same engine as in Wikipedia). I also
>    installed rss and wysiwyg (for editing a-la text processor) plugins.
>    Let's test it.

Yaaaaaaay!!

[.alyn.post.]

This is a project I could really find myself getting behind, and I
also have some concerns. Would you, gleki, or someone else involved
be willing to discuss them with me?

* I'd like to hear at least a basic outline on the theory of why the
existing Lojban wiki got to it's current (rubbish?) state and what
will be different this time.
* Sort of to the same point: this community starts far more
projects than it finishes. This impacts the wiki, because a page
will get written but then becomes unmaintained and eventually
becomes part of the long tail of pages that are out of date but
still vaguely relevant. Is starting this wiki also a commitment
to curate it? Asked another way: is this project different from
the other projects that are started but not completed or
maintained?
* Last week I needed the redirect feature of Lojban's tiki software
enabled. I was able to contact Robin on IRC and ask him to enable
it, and he did so later than day. Who is the support person for
this wiki? Any idea of how responsive you'll be?
* I have several templates that I would like to use on this wiki.
They require the Cite and ParserFunctions extensions. Will the
support person add these extensions please? /me starts timer.

Thank you! I have made a deep investment in mediawiki and use it in
every other community I participate in. I'd love to see lojban.org
use this software, but I don't understand why it fixes and/or is
better than the current wiki.

-Alan

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 06:08:25PM -0700, la .lindar. wrote:
> On Monday, 24 September 2012 11:00:45 UTC-7, .alyn.post. wrote:
>
> Will you describe what the mission statement (for lack of a better
> term) for this wiki is? Why would I edit at this address rather

> than the wiki at [1]lojban.org? What makes them different?

>
> -Alan
>
> The tiki on the primary Lojban website is... well... rubbish. (YMMV)
> MediaWiki seems to provide better editing support and, most importantly, a
> place to shove all of our discussions. It's also nice to have a brand new
> start! So, we were hoping to get something functional and solid, and then
> once everything looks lovely, dump it over to lojban.org and use the old
> tiki as a historical archive. Even if we don't use it to replace
> lojban.org's tiki several of us are going to start the effort to organise
> things so we stop repeating arguments and instead have well-documented
> pages about each and every word.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 10:47:47AM -0700, la gleki wrote:
> > Basically it's MediaWiki (the same engine as in Wikipedia). I also
> > installed rss and wysiwyg (for editing a-la text processor)
> plugins.
> > Let's test it.
>
> Yaaaaaaay!!
>

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> References
>
> Visible links

> 1. http://lojban.org/
> 2. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/XlVrW9jUaIQJ

[la .lindar.]

On Monday, 24 September 2012 19:59:59 UTC-7, .alyn.post. wrote:

This is a project I could really find myself getting behind, and I
also have some concerns.  Would you, gleki, or someone else involved
be willing to discuss them with me?

Yaaaaaaay! Enthusiasm!

 

 * I'd like to hear at least a basic outline on the theory of why the
   existing Lojban wiki got to it's current (rubbish?) state and what
   will be different this time.

Abandonment of pages and generally a lack of any articles linking to other articles or any sense of anything linking to anything ever. Have you ever been caught in wiki hell before? I want to see that level of linkage on every wiki page. Also, slightly unrelated, but still awesome, we can make a page for the best-form lujvo and then redirect all possible combinations of rafsi to the best-scoring word (i.e. brodybroda redirects to rodbo'a and fukpyvalsi / fukyvalsi / fukyvla / fu'irvalsi / fukpyvla / etc. redirects to fu'ivla), which may be a boon for using the website as a dictionary tool. It would allow us to include discussion, examples, and more along side the definition of each word.

 

 * Sort of to the same point: this community starts far more
   projects than it finishes.  This impacts the wiki, because a page
   will get written but then becomes unmaintained and eventually
   becomes part of the long tail of pages that are out of date but
   still vaguely relevant.  Is starting this wiki also a commitment
   to curate it?  Asked another way: is this project different from
   the other projects that are started but not completed or
   maintained?

Lindar actually gives two shits about it and is currently working on the dictionary project, which I hope will integrate with this. The big reason for MediaWiki of all things is that it lets a dumbshit like me create Wiki pages without having to understand complex concepts like "programming" or "computers", so I can just slap-dash a page together with a pretty picture (I can't embed pictures on tiki pages like on MediaWiki. This is a huge problem for me and one of my biggest complaints.) and call it a day.

 

 * Last week I needed the redirect feature of Lojban's tiki software
   enabled.  I was able to contact Robin on IRC and ask him to enable
   it, and he did so later than day.  Who is the support person for
   this wiki?  Any idea of how responsive you'll be?

This, unfortunately, cannot be answered by Lindar.

 

    * I have several templates that I would like to use on this wiki.
      They require the Cite and ParserFunctions extensions.  Will the
      support person add these extensions please?  /me starts timer.

Again, not by me. If this remains outside of lojban.org then it's entirely in the hands of the two people that've developed the page so far. Either way, not something with which I can help. 

 

Thank you!  I have made a deep investment in mediawiki and use it in
every other community I participate in.  I'd love to see lojban.org
use this software, but I don't understand why it fixes and/or is
better than the current wiki.

I hope I've been a help with some of your questions.

-Lindar 

[.alyn.post.]

Awesome Lindar, thank you for your replies.

I'd like to outline a problem I have right now and see how much
overlap there is with your ideas for this wiki.

I was recently invited to work on opencog[1]. Specifically I was
asked to modify my parser, jbogenturfa'i[2], to provide Lojban
abstract syntax trees to OpenCog to support the Natural Language
Processing (NLP) research happening there.

I believe that using Lojban for NLP research makes certain classes of
NLP problems go away, allowing you to focus on other potentially more
fruitful classes of problems instead. The hypothesis is that these
other classes of problems, once explored and perhaps even solved, make
the first class of problems more tractable.
"assert(Lojban == NLP bootstrap)", if you will.

But, to borrow a phrase: 'Some people, when confronted with an NLP
problem, think "I know, I'll use Lojban." Now they have two
problems.'

It is absolutely pointless to tell a researcher that the utterance:

".i ta mo"

creates the abstract syntax tree:

'(text (I-clause (cmavo (I "i")))
(paragraphs
(paragraph
(sentence
(term (sumti (KOhA-clause (cmavo (KOhA "ta")))))
(selbri (GOhA-clause (cmavo (GOhA "mo"))))))))

And expect that to be useful without a lot of additional support.
Stated another way: it is foolish to expect that researches at
OpenCog will spend *more* effort than I have learning Lojban. They
have science stuff they need to be doing.

If I'm going to succeed in making Lojban part of OpenCog, I need to
provide reference quality context sensitive help for the grammar and
vocabulary so a researcher can make sense of what they're looking at,
above.

This could all be done with mediawiki: I essentially need a grammar
dictionary and grammar reference rolled into one, all linked together
using some templates. The closest thing we now have to this is:

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/

And it would be nice to take this essential idea and make it richer:
wrap tutorials, examples, discussion, &c around it. Possibly like
we do on the Where Are Your Keys? wiki with techniques, which all
have a template describing them:

template: http://wiki.whereareyourkeys.org/Template:NewTechnique
example: http://wiki.whereareyourkeys.org/Set-up

Is this sort of thing compatible with what you have in mind? Something
I could use to programatically link parts of a Lojban abstract syntax
tree to pages that answer questions like "WTF is KOhA?"

-Alan

1: http://opencog.org/
2: http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Jbogenturfahi

> every other community I participate in. I'd love to see [1]lojban.org

> use this software, but I don't understand why it fixes and/or is
> better than the current wiki.
>
> I hope I've been a help with some of your questions.
> -Lindar
>

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> 2. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/6nvjZFs4A9sJ

[la .lindar.]

Awesome Lindar, thank you for your replies.

I'm just Regular Lindar. Awesome Lindar is on holiday after translating an entire game in a week. 

 

I'd like to outline a problem I have right now and see how much
overlap there is with your ideas for this wiki.

My ideas stop at, "It'd be neat if I could update the news on the front page of lojban.org without having to permanently erase the old news or do crazy shit like that. Also I understand MediaWiki mark-up better than whatever crap this is. I'd actually make/edit pages if we used... pretty much anything else.".  I'm not doing any of the work, design, etc. I'm very loosely supervising the project by fiat. Anybody is welcome to challenge me for supervisory.

 

I was recently invited to work on opencog[1].  Specifically I was
asked to modify my parser, jbogenturfa'i[2], to provide Lojban
abstract syntax trees to OpenCog to support the Natural Language
Processing (NLP) research happening there.

Neat. 

 

If I'm going to succeed in making Lojban part of OpenCog, I need to
provide reference quality context sensitive help for the grammar and
vocabulary so a researcher can make sense of what they're looking at,
above.

This could all be done with mediawiki: I essentially need a grammar
dictionary and grammar reference rolled into one, all linked together
using some templates.

Neat.

 

Is this sort of thing compatible with what you have in mind?  Something
I could use to programatically link parts of a Lojban abstract syntax
tree to pages that answer questions like "WTF is KOhA?"

-Alan

From my limited understanding of anything that sounds like it might also be what I wanted, but maybe not, and likely is or isn't, but mostly you should do whatever you want, provided I don't have to actually do anything or put forth any effort.

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:59:59 AM UTC+4, .alyn.post. wrote:

This is a project I could really find myself getting behind, and I
also have some concerns.  Would you, gleki, or someone else involved
be willing to discuss them with me?

 * I'd like to hear at least a basic outline on the theory of why the
   existing Lojban wiki got to it's current (rubbish?) state and what
   will be different this time.

No idea.  At least three jbopre including me don't like this TWiki.

 * Sort of to the same point: this community starts far more
   projects than it finishes.  This impacts the wiki, because a page
   will get written but then becomes unmaintained and eventually
   becomes part of the long tail of pages that are out of date but
   still vaguely relevant.  Is starting this wiki also a commitment
   to curate it?  Asked another way: is this project different from
   the other projects that are started but not completed or
   maintained?

Just a better engine.

 

 * Last week I needed the redirect feature of Lojban's tiki software
   enabled.  I was able to contact Robin on IRC and ask him to enable
   it, and he did so later than day.  Who is the support person for
   this wiki?  Any idea of how responsive you'll be?

No idea. But... CURRENTLY WE ARE ONLY TESTING THIS MEDIAWIKI.

If this server is not stable we would probably move to another one, may be Robin can help us with hosting. 

    * I have several templates that I would like to use on this wiki.
      They require the Cite and ParserFunctions extensions.  Will the
      support person add these extensions please?  /me starts timer.

http://www.lojban.overt-ops.com/index.php?title=Special:Version

added.

Probably I should give you ftp access to the wiki too.

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:56:34 AM UTC+4, .alyn.post. wrote:

Awesome Lindar, thank you for your replies.

I'd like to outline a problem I have right now and see how much
overlap there is with your ideas for this wiki.

I was recently invited to work on opencog[1].  Specifically I was
asked to modify my parser, jbogenturfa'i[2], to provide Lojban
abstract syntax trees to OpenCog to support the Natural Language
Processing (NLP) research happening there.

I believe that using Lojban for NLP research makes certain classes of
NLP problems go away, allowing you to focus on other potentially more
fruitful classes of problems instead.  The hypothesis is that these
other classes of problems, once explored and perhaps even solved, make
the first class of problems more tractable.
"assert(Lojban == NLP bootstrap)", if you will.

This is totally awesome, the first hint that Lojban is indeed more  than an ordinary language.

I'll be waiting for some papers published by you describing your research.

For me Wiktionary is a useless website. 

We need a more strict database similar to jvs. If you can turn MediaWiki into such kind of database

using SemanticWiki plugins or something it would be really banliand we would get rid of jvs.

I'll approve it if it is able to

1. Autoredirect from {selprami} to => {selpa'i} etc.

2. have regexp search by fields (definition, notes, glosswords...)

3. have voting system for each word

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:56:39 AM UTC+4, la .lindar. wrote:

Awesome Lindar, thank you for your replies.

I'm just Regular Lindar. Awesome Lindar is on holiday after translating an entire game in a week. 

 

I'd like to outline a problem I have right now and see how much
overlap there is with your ideas for this wiki.

My ideas stop at, "It'd be neat if I could update the news on the front page of lojban.org without having to permanently erase the old news or do crazy shit like that. Also I understand MediaWiki mark-up better than whatever crap this is. I'd actually make/edit pages if we used... pretty much anything else.".  I'm not doing any of the work, design, etc. I'm very loosely supervising the project by fiat. Anybody is welcome to challenge me for supervisory.

Note that now it has "[Show RichTextEditor]" link when you switch to edit mode of any page. It toggles visual rich text editor so you sometimes don't need to know any mediawiki syntax. This doesn't apply to pages with templates, though.

[iesk]

Thank you. I have three questions. What sort of things should I write in that wiki? How do I say 'What sort of things should I write in that wiki?' (or a less non-native rephrasing) in Lojban? Are you going to copy the lojban.org tiki into the wiki for a start? (I don't know if there is a tikiwiki-mediawiki converter or what not.)

iesk

[Jacob Errington]

I'd suggest {.i .e'udai mi srana be ma ciska fi ubu}

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

On 25 September 2012 08:52, iesk <pa....@gmx.de> wrote:

Thank you. I have three questions. What sort of things should I write in that wiki? How do I say 'What sort of things should I write in that wiki?' (or a less non-native rephrasing) in Lojban? Are you going to copy the lojban.org tiki into the wiki for a start? (I don't know if there is a tikiwiki-mediawiki converter or what not.)

iesk

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[la gleki]

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:52:40 PM UTC+4, iesk wrote:

Thank you. I have three questions. What sort of things should I write in that wiki? How do I say 'What sort of things should I write in that wiki?' (or a less non-native rephrasing) in Lojban? Are you going to copy the lojban.org tiki into the wiki for a start?

Sorry for not explaining everything earlier.

I know of only one active member of the LLG. It's Lindar. When I had discussed the problem of Twiki nobody agreed to help me. But when J. Cameron and Lindar said the same thing things started developing quickly and this wiki was born.

1. I'm not sure if this server is stable. Although regular backups is a must in any case. Mirroring is highly desirable as well (not only for the wiki, e.g. vlasisku was down earlier today. Again!)

2. I thought of migrating from Twiki to Mediawiki at first. But now I doubt it will be good. What for? Should we export all those stupid unreadable pages to this MediaWiki?

It'll change nothing. Read Twiki if you can decipher ugly formatting of discussions in it and discussions with no summaries and solutions seen.

Instead let's write the wiki from scratch. Of course, we will export Wave lessons, texts for the corpus (like pokemon, snime blabi etc.).

However, we won't delete Twiki. We'll just put redirects to the new wiki there. However, Mediawiki will have absolutely no redirects to the old wiki.

Mediawiki will have all the stuff that is absolutely necessary for learning and speaking lojban. When visitors of mediawiki become jbocre then can continue the process of manually rewriting old TWiki pages and putting them in a concise format to the new wiki.

I.e. we will be freezing the old wiki page by page.

 

(I don't know if there is a tikiwiki-mediawiki converter or what not.)

iesk

Well, no excellent converters exist for that purpose. And I don't want any converters. Let's use our brains to rewrite the wiki.

[kozmikreis]

On 25 Sep 2012, at 17:45, la gleki wrote:

> I know of only one active member of the LLG. It's Lindar.

Lindar's a member of the LLG? I remember the suggestion coming up and for another person too, but I don't remember it happening.

kozmikreis

[Daniel Lyons]

Just in case you guys haven't seen it, DBpedia: http://dbpedia.org/About

The idea there is to scrape structured information out of the infoboxes. If each gismu had an infobox with the gloss words, rafsi, definition, etc. and perhaps each sumti place separately, DBpedia may have software that will automate scraping it.

It would also be a push towards RDF, which is probably a good idea anyway since the crux of RDF is ontologies and that's exactly what Lojban's vocabulary is.
 

[MorphemeAddict]

I tried to edit the home page, but was unable to make any changes myself. A word is missing after "hear":

Interested? See and hear an of spoken Lojban.  

stevo

[Jonathan Jones]

You have to go here: http://www.lojban.overt-ops.com/index.php?title=Template:Ralju to edit that text.

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.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[MorphemeAddict]

On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

You have to go here: http://www.lojban.overt-ops.com/index.php?title=Template:Ralju to edit that text.

Thanks. 

stevo 

[la .lindar.]

Lindar's a member of the LLG?  I remember the suggestion coming up and for another person too, but I don't remember it happening.

kozmikreis

TECHNICALLY I'm an acting member of the LLG. I'm not on the board officially (AFAIK), but I work as a contractor for them and act on behalf of them for the purposes of social networking (and public relations to a limited extent). So I'm not, to my knowledge, a full member, nor do I see any need to be one at the moment.

[iesk]

ki'e .i mi nelci

[iesk]

Thank you for the clarification.

What does the logo in the upper left part of the screen stand for? Oh, and the opening page is currently filled with some non-Lojban text. Maybe the standard propaganda ( http://www.lojban.org/tiki/la%20lojban.%20mo?no_bl=y ) would be fitting?

iesk

[la gleki]

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:20:20 PM UTC+4, iesk wrote:

Thank you for the clarification.

What does the logo in the upper left part of the screen stand for?

Well, just 25 years of Lojban, nothing more.

 

Oh, and the opening page is currently filled with some non-Lojban text. Maybe the standard propaganda ( http://www.lojban.org/tiki/la%20lojban.%20mo?no_bl=y ) would be fitting?

iesk

Please, develop the wiki, edit it yourself. Tell me what you need. Let's make it better than the old one. Together.

[Marica Odagaki]

.uisai I'm all for adopting MediaWiki as the official wiki.

> Please, develop the wiki, edit it yourself. Tell me what you need. Let's make it better than the old one. Together.

I have a few suggestions to make this project better yet:

A. Set short-term goals.

- 1. Create overview pages targeted at newcomers/learning & teaching/etc.

- 2. Go over all the TikiWiki pages and migrate them where necessary.

     Last time I checked, there are 2357 of them.

B. Broadly categorize pages.

- About: introduction to the language and organizations

- Guides: learning materials, faq

- Documentation: grammar documentation/dictionary/baseline definition

- Writings: Lojbanic writings/multimedia/games

- Encyclopedia of related topics

- News

- Projects

- Participation guides

- People

- Proposals

(Discussions should happen in the "Talk" side of the page.)

These are gleaned from a wiki pages categorization project

I'd been tackling by myself:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqPDUjCrM_cfdDI5NzBIMzhCRHZJWGF2Tzl4R245N3c

Giving the wiki a minimum structure will help grow it without falling into a chaotic state.

C. Define what goes into the wiki, and state it in the wiki.

- All of the above (in B.)

- Questions should be asked in the mailing-list first.

Do these sound all good?

mu'o

[iesk]

Is that wiki going to be in English?
.aidaipei glico fa le .uitki sei senpi

[la gleki]

go'isai

Especially "minimum structure". I don't want lojban.org/tiki to be shut down.

AND NOW IMPORTANT MESSAGE.

Robin INSTALLED MEDIAWIKI ON HIS SERVER. THE CURRENT ADDRESS IS

http://vrici.lojban.org/~gleki/mw/index.php/ralju_ckupau

Problems that I can see so far:

1. I can't create folders in the root of mediawiki installation. And probably therefore impossible to upload files.

2. Not only I should have sftp access to that root folder (who is familiar with MediaWiki? Whom can we trust?)

3. I haven't found appropriate extension to localise wiki pages on the fly like it is done in Tiki.

I hope Robin will  fix the first problem himself.

As for the third problem I'm waiting for suggestions.

[la gleki]

Solved. 

2. Not only I should have sftp access to that root folder (who is familiar with MediaWiki? Whom can we trust?)

3. I haven't found appropriate extension to localise wiki pages on the fly like it is done in Tiki.

Translate Extension installed. 

[la gleki]

Now Mediawiki has full support for localising any given page to another language. The solution is not ideal, it uses a simple template (anyway, ki'ecai .brendyn. for letting know about about this simplest tool)

http://vrici.lojban.org/~gleki/mw/index.php/Template:Ralju

If you think the template can be made a bit nicer plase let me know.

Anyway, now nothing can stop us from starting to really work on this wiki.

[la gleki]

The wiki has moved to http://mw.lojban.org/

[la gleki]

Translate Extension has been tuned up (ki'e entot !).

Using this extension you can translate the content of any page into other languages.

If we ever move the CLL, Wave lessons and L4B to this wiki you will be able to translate them chunk by chunk to other languages that you speak.

Note that if the source is changed the extension notices this and inform that the translation to another language is out of date.

This is how we can put speakers  of all languages (not only English) in equal conditions when learning Lojban.

[Sebastian Fröjd]

I really like the idea of having a better website for lojban .ausai
I'm not a computer programmer, I often feel a bit limited when I discuss things in english (no one out there who can translate from swedish to english for me? ;), I don't have much time (but I really like constructing lujvos (systematically; subject by subject), so I'm probably going to contribute in that way a loot in the future).

Anyhow, I've just got some proposals for your project. The most of it sounds awesome, but here what comes to my mind:
* I think it's important with a very esthetic, clear and distinct layout, so visitors easily find the information they're looking for and also having a good impression of the lojban language (and community). I really must say that the current lojban.org doesn't looks rather dull :(

* What I really would like to have is a list of all lojban projects, current status (completed, almost completed but open for editing, suggested but not yet started etc), project last updated-info, click to become a member in the respectively project group, project cathegories like translation projects, technical projects, social projects, vocabulary, vote for how important you think each project is etc. It is very important  to get an overview of the status of the whole lojban devolopment I think.

* Forum with distinct cathegories/subjects, instead of the mailing list.

I don't think if all this is possible to work out, but this is my vision of what the lojbanic internet community ba se binxo.

How do you say "good luck" in lojban?

mu'omi'e jongausib goi sebastian

2012/11/7 la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>

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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/2qiOP1A6weoJ.

[Sebastian Fröjd]

* I really must say that the current lojban.org je'a looks rather dull :(

2012/11/10 Sebastian Fröjd <so.co...@gmail.com>

[Sebastian Fröjd]

Has anyone visited the website of the conlang toki pona?

http://tokipona.net/tp/ClassicWordList.aspx

Not overwhelming impressing but quite nice. I like their kind of hieroglyphs .ui.

mu'omi'e jongausib

2012/11/10 Sebastian Fröjd <so.co...@gmail.com>

[Jacob Errington]

On 10 November 2012 10:49, Sebastian Fröjd <so.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

Has anyone visited the website of the conlang toki pona?

http://tokipona.net/tp/ClassicWordList.aspx

Not overwhelming impressing but quite nice. I like their kind of hieroglyphs .ui.

Clearly, we need to make up some 1350 lojban hieroglyphics, too; that'd be fun.

[la gleki]

On Saturday, November 10, 2012 10:36:58 PM UTC+4, jongausib wrote:

I really like the idea of having a better website for lojban .ausai
I'm not a computer programmer, I often feel a bit limited when I discuss things in english (no one out there who can translate from swedish to english for me? ;)

.e'u mi'o tavla bau lo jbobau vau u'iru'e

 

, I don't have much time (but I really like constructing lujvos (systematically; subject by subject), so I'm probably going to contribute in that way a loot in the future).

Anyhow, I've just got some proposals for your project. The most of it sounds awesome, but here what comes to my mind:
* I think it's important with a very esthetic, clear and distinct layout, so visitors easily find the information they're looking for and also having a good impression of the lojban language (and community). I really must say that the current lojban.org doesn't looks rather dull :(

So is it dull or not dull?

 

* What I really would like to have is a list of all lojban projects, current status (completed, almost completed but open for editing, suggested but not yet started etc), project last updated-info, click to become a member in the respectively project group, project cathegories like translation projects, technical projects, social projects, vocabulary, vote for how important you think each project is etc. It is very important  to get an overview of the status of the whole lojban devolopment I think.

Everything that you just said is not a programmer's work. The "programmer" 's work has already been done.

Just register and start developing the wiki.

Everything that is true for Wikipedia is true for our LMW so if you have some problems you can contact Wikipedia developers (there are plenty of them on the planet) and then implement it's features in LMW. If you need extra administrative rights just inform me.

 

* Forum with distinct cathegories/subjects, instead of the mailing list.

Probably although i'm against splitting the community into separate forums. On the other hand, the more lojbanic places the better.

I don't think if all this is possible to work out, but this is my vision of what the lojbanic internet community ba se binxo.

How do you say "good luck" in lojban?

di'ai 

And again many suggestions, no actual work.

i mutce lo ka lojbo fadni vau uinai

[Sebastian]

On Saturday, November 10, 2012 10:36:58 PM UTC+4, jongausib wrote:

I really like the idea of having a better website for lojban .ausai
I'm not a computer programmer, I often feel a bit limited when I discuss things in english (no one out there who can translate from swedish to english for me? ;)

.e'u mi'o tavla bau lo jbobau vau u'iru'e

 

, I don't have much time (but I really like constructing lujvos (systematically; subject by subject), so I'm probably going to contribute in that way a loot in the future).

Anyhow, I've just got some proposals for your project. The most of it sounds awesome, but here what comes to my mind:
* I think it's important with a very esthetic, clear and distinct layout, so visitors easily find the information they're looking for and also having a good impression of the lojban language (and community). I really must say that the current lojban.org doesn't looks rather dull :(

So is it dull or not dull?

dull

 

* What I really would like to have is a list of all lojban projects, current status (completed, almost completed but open for editing, suggested but not yet started etc), project last updated-info, click to become a member in the respectively project group, project cathegories like translation projects, technical projects, social projects, vocabulary, vote for how important you think each project is etc. It is very important  to get an overview of the status of the whole lojban devolopment I think.

Everything that you just said is not a programmer's work. The "programmer" 's work has already been done.

Just register and start developing the wiki.

Everything that is true for Wikipedia is true for our LMW so if you have some problems you can contact Wikipedia developers (there are plenty of them on the planet) and then implement it's features in LMW. If you need extra administrative rights just inform me.

Ok, I'll check it out. Could you give me administrative rights please and I'll see what I can do.

 

* Forum with distinct cathegories/subjects, instead of the mailing list.

Probably although i'm against splitting the community into separate forums. On the other hand, the more lojbanic places the better.

I don't think if all this is possible to work out, but this is my vision of what the lojbanic internet community ba se binxo.

How do you say "good luck" in lojban?

di'ai 

And again many suggestions, no actual work.

i mutce lo ka lojbo fadni vau uinai

i pe'i lo nu mi a. lo datra jnopre ku stidi da kei xlame'a lo dukti be ri lo jboce'u  i ku'i mi ba troci lo nu sidju

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/rZnI8czUylgJ.

[la gleki]

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 1:24:41 PM UTC+4, jongausib wrote:

On Saturday, November 10, 2012 10:36:58 PM UTC+4, jongausib wrote:

I really like the idea of having a better website for lojban .ausai
I'm not a computer programmer, I often feel a bit limited when I discuss things in english (no one out there who can translate from swedish to english for me? ;)

.e'u mi'o tavla bau lo jbobau vau u'iru'e

 

, I don't have much time (but I really like constructing lujvos (systematically; subject by subject), so I'm probably going to contribute in that way a loot in the future).

Anyhow, I've just got some proposals for your project. The most of it sounds awesome, but here what comes to my mind:
* I think it's important with a very esthetic, clear and distinct layout, so visitors easily find the information they're looking for and also having a good impression of the lojban language (and community). I really must say that the current lojban.org doesn't looks rather dull :(

So is it dull or not dull?

dull

 

* What I really would like to have is a list of all lojban projects, current status (completed, almost completed but open for editing, suggested but not yet started etc), project last updated-info, click to become a member in the respectively project group, project cathegories like translation projects, technical projects, social projects, vocabulary, vote for how important you think each project is etc. It is very important  to get an overview of the status of the whole lojban devolopment I think.

Everything that you just said is not a programmer's work. The "programmer" 's work has already been done.

Just register and start developing the wiki.

Everything that is true for Wikipedia is true for our LMW so if you have some problems you can contact Wikipedia developers (there are plenty of them on the planet) and then implement it's features in LMW. If you need extra administrative rights just inform me.

Ok, I'll check it out. Could you give me administrative rights please and I'll see what I can do.

Heh. ko cpacu lo uitki jaspu. Register there!!! 

[la gleki]

Lojbananas, I should say once again.

Please, register on http://mw.lojban.org and start adding (or copying from the old wiki) articles now.
In order to register follow this link http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin

The format of the wiki is the same as of Wikipedia.

.a'o this time my request was comprehensible :)

[Marica Odagaki]

> The wiki has moved to http://mw.lojban.org/

Does this mean we're officially moving to MediaWiki?

Is it ok to migrate an entire page from TikiWiki, leaving a "This page has moved to ..." message there?

[la gleki]

On Monday, November 12, 2012 3:23:56 AM UTC+4, entot wrote:

> The wiki has moved to http://mw.lojban.org/

Does this mean we're officially moving to MediaWiki?

No!  

Is it ok to migrate an entire page from TikiWiki, leaving a "This page has moved to ..." message there?

No! Copy them, don't move them for now. Don't touch the old wiki for now.

The answer is pretty simple. If we show that we are active and able to improve the quality of lojbanic wiki

then I'm sure we will officially move. What lojbanistan consists of if not of active jbopre?

But if we appear to be lazy, inactive then the answer is "do not rock the boat! Leave everything as it is!"

However, as at least two active people (lindar and J Camaron) were dissapointed with the current wiki

I wanna urge you to develop this wiki so that normal people, not only geeks can start styudying and enjoying this language.

P.S. If anybody can theoretically migrate the whole Twiki to Mediawiki using some script please inform me. Pages for geeks can always be moved under "Discussions" tab as it is accepted in Wikipedia. (Twiki lacks this feature).

[entot]

On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:41:38 PM UTC+9, la gleki wrote:

Does this mean we're officially moving to MediaWiki?

No!  

Is it ok to migrate an entire page from TikiWiki, leaving a "This page has moved to ..." message there?

No! Copy them, don't move them for now. Don't touch the old wiki for now.

The answer is pretty simple. If we show that we are active and able to improve the quality of lojbanic wiki

then I'm sure we will officially move. What lojbanistan consists of if not of active jbopre?

OK, I haven't touched anything yet :)

 

But if we appear to be lazy, inactive then the answer is "do not rock the boat! Leave everything as it is!"

However, as at least two active people (lindar and J Camaron) were dissapointed with the current wiki

I wanna urge you to develop this wiki so that normal people, not only geeks can start styudying and enjoying this language.

I'm going to work on the Community Portal page so that it gives a nice overview of

what you can do to help and where you can get help.

 

P.S. If anybody can theoretically migrate the whole Twiki to Mediawiki using some script please inform me.

 

Theoretically it's possible.

1. Obtain a dump file of the Twiki: it should be at [1], but the page just says "file not found"

2. Convert it to a format that MediaWiki understands: there is a script by someone at [2]

3. Import the result to MediaWiki: note that this may slow down vrici

I can test the process with a MediaWiki on my server, if I can get my hands on the Twiki dump.

Also it's possible to apply small transformations to each page like assigning categories.

[1]: http://lojban.org/tiki/dump/new.tar

[2]: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion 

Pages for geeks can always be moved under "Discussions" tab as it is accepted in Wikipedia. (Twiki lacks this feature).

I think discussions found in Twiki should stay there. Reasons:

* This is my personal opinion but wiki is ill-suited for discussions and conversations.

  * We're making a fresh start, so why not keep it clean?

* The Discussion tab in Wikipedia/MediaWiki is for discussions *about* the main page it corresponds to.

  * Old discussions in Twiki do not have a corresponding page that they're talking about.

mu'o

[la gleki]

.ua .i'e If you also think so then no need for any dumps (and I won't contact anyone). Then we are creating that one would call "Lojban for everyone on the planet"  as opposed to the old wiki that might be called "Lojban for geeks". Let's continue manual work.

mu'o

[Jacob Errington]

I agree. The focus of this new wiki should be the promotion on works in Lojban and the indication of where to find learning resources. We should aim to make it as user-friendly and up to date as possible (the old wiki's dead links can be a pain) so that nintadni will have an easy time learning the language. We should try to promote the community as being warm and open.
What I think would be neat is that we could try maintaining some kind of roster of jbopre, with self-reported levels of proficiency, activity in the community, and a list of works produced or other community contributions.

i mi'e la tsani mu'i

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 6:56:22 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

I agree. The focus of this new wiki should be the promotion on works in Lojban and the indication of where to find learning resources. We should aim to make it as user-friendly and up to date as possible (the old wiki's dead links can be a pain) so that nintadni will have an easy time learning the language. We should try to promote the community as being warm and open.
What I think would be neat is that we could try maintaining some kind of roster of jbopre, with self-reported levels of proficiency, activity in the community, and a list of works produced or other community contributions.

Probably this is realised through additional templates. It's absolutely not a problem provided that you give me some links to Mediawiki-based (i.e. ~ looking the same as Wikipedia) web-sittes that have such feature. Then I'll do the rest of work to import that feature too LMW. 

[entot]

To clarify my standpoint:

I agree that "we should aim to make it as user-friendly and up to date as possible."

I also think that "geeky" contents can have a place in the new wiki.

(Under the condition that they are up-to-date and not cryptic, or at least explains what it is about.)

There are good things and not-so-good things in the old wiki.

Lojbanic writings, project pages and maintained pages are good, and salvageable. (example: nicte cadzu)

Old "discussions" should not be moved to the new wiki. (example: [1])

Ideally, in my view, the new wiki will have a super beginner-friendly frontpage and also

in-depth articles are accepted (example: about the various parsers).

[1] http://www.lojban.org/tiki/%27%27nau%27%27+as+sumtcita

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:34:06 AM UTC+9, la gleki wrote:

What I think would be neat is that we could try maintaining some kind of roster of jbopre, with self-reported levels of proficiency, activity in the community, and a list of works produced or other community contributions.

Probably this is realised through additional templates. It's absolutely not a problem provided that you give me some links to Mediawiki-based (i.e. ~ looking the same as Wikipedia) web-sittes that have such feature. Then I'll do the rest of work to import that feature too LMW. 

Extension:Semantic MediaWiki [2] with Extension:Semantic Forms [3] looks promising.

[2] http://semantic-mediawiki.org/

[3] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms

Usage example:

* Individual page with annotation: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_G1G1

* Edit with a user-friendly form: http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=OLPC_G1G1&action=formedit

* Aggregated list of pages: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Deployments#Deployment_data

I may be biased about its user-friendliness though.

mu'o

[.alyn.post.]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 04:21:14AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> * We're making a fresh start, so why not keep it clean?

To be contrary a moment,

I've put a lot of work in writing and organizing TWiki pages. I'm
happy to have them migrated to mediawiki, but I'm more-or-less being
told that the work I've done on TWiki isn't valuable ("fresh start").
Any work I would do on the new wiki would need to access/refer to/
modify the pages I have worked on than are in TWiki.

I'd love to have them imported to Mediawiki, but as things stand I feel
like work I've put into the wiki is more-or-less being deleted (you can
call it archiving if you want) and I'm wondering what the heck I would
be expected to do with the new wiki when all the content I want to work
on is in the old wiki.

mi'e .alyn.
--
.i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du

[la gleki]

If we somehow mention your name at the bottom of each page for which you created content would that suit you?

[.alyn.post.]

I don't follow the implication? I have work in the existing TWiki
that I'm not terribly keen on hand-porting to mediawiki. I'd like
them to be imported to mediawiki because if I assume a "fresh start"
the first thing I'm doing is... rewriting those pages.

The content qua attribution is not important to me. I consider it
permissively/open licensed/whatever the license of lojban.org is,
but I'm confused on what you mean so perhaps I've missed something.

[entot]

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:16:51 AM UTC+9, .alyn.post. wrote:

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 04:21:14AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
>        * We're making a fresh start, so why not keep it clean?

I've put a lot of work in writing and organizing TWiki pages.  I'm
happy to have them migrated to mediawiki, but I'm more-or-less being
told that the work I've done on TWiki isn't valuable ("fresh start").

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. (That "fresh start" line should be attributed to me.)

When I wrote "maintained pages are good" in my previous post, I had in mind

those pages you listed in your Twiki user page as you're curating.

As I said on my previous post, I'm on the side of "migrate whatever valuable

contents from the old wiki."

(Also, if I may slip in another clarification, I didn't mean to say "geeky" contents

on the old wiki are all cryptic.)

[.alyn.post.]

Thank you.

I'm 100% onboard with improving the user experience of our wiki: I
find the TWiki frustrating in that regard too. I'm not certain what
tools mediawiki gives us to mitigate this problem: it's a function
of the content rather than the platform, and I see a future in which
we have the TWiki, mediawiki, and the new wiki-of-the-moment because
mediawiki filled up with junk.

I'm excited there is work being done in this area, and honestly I
love working in mediawiki. I'm admin on 2 public and many private
mediawikis. There are things I could do with my content if it were
in mediawiki that is hard to impossible for me on twiki.

But much as I very much support the mediawiki platform, I've already
got content written, and I'm not the least bit keen on rewriting it.
That is one giant step backwards for me. My time in Lojbanistan is
already limited without paving over progress I've already made.

I'm not certain, alas, what the set of pages I would need migrated
are. It's things like:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/fa%27o

and the whole snag of pages that come with it, it's obvious stuff
like this:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/jbogenturfa%27i

But then you start into content I'm trying to polish into the 4th
baseline proposal:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/PEG

And I start to think I basically need the whole wiki, after which
I ask why we aren't just addressing the actual organizational
problem.

I'd like to help. I most certainly adore and use mediawiki, but
it has literally taken me years of wall time to get where I am
in the existing wiki and I have very little expectation that
mediawiki the platform can make up for losing this work. I'm
attached to my content, not the platform. If we import it, I'd
be happier to be working in mediawiki. But I can't tell to what
degree the areas I curate are part of the problem and not welcome
in a new wiki vs. your willingness to import this mess and deal
with my slow, plodding, but focused nature.

[vruxir]

I'm of the opinion that it would benefit a future Wiki if it has imported ALL the contents from the TWiki. If that can be done automatically, then hopefully there's also a way to automatically place a "Cleanup" box at the top of each imported article, saying something to the effect of:

"This article was imported from the old lojban.org Tiki Wiki and may not meet the content and style guidelines of this Wiki. Please see our _content and style guidelines_ and clean up this article. If you feel that the article is named inappropriately, the article can be moved to a new name. Do not remove this tag until the article is up to standards."

Then you'll want to have some content and style guidelines, probably inspired by Wikipedia or other successful Wikis.

(When you move an article to a new name, the old name becomes a redirect; if you replace the old name with a new article, you can insert tags at the top of the article with suggestions to visit the moved article. See, for example, the top of the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

)

If there is a debate about what a word really MEANS, then I would think the article about that word needs to report the differing viewpoints (including CLL's viewpoint) and what level of support the viewpoints have. Then the actual continuing debate over the meaning of the word could go in the Discussion tab, OR if it's possible to create another tab with a more appropriate name (e.g. "Grammar Debate"), do that and leave the Discussion tab for talking about the quality of the article itself.

By importing all the TWiki content to the new Wiki (and marking them all for "cleanup"), you can safely redirect people from the TWiki to the new Wiki if/when it has been demonstrated that the new Wiki is superior, and you don't have to worry about losing important discussions.

mu'o mi'e vruxir

[.alyn.post.]

I like the suggestion of a {{cleanup}} template. I've been working
on general workflow templates over at OpenCog:

http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation

And they are similar to this idea. You can mark a page as a
{{stub}}, mark it as work in progress ({{WIP}})* write it until
it's a {{proposal}}, and then {{withdraw}} it if it's a bad idea
or tag it with a {{version}} if it becomes a feature. Later work
may cause it to be {{obsolete}} and if you don't keep it in sync
it might get {{out of date}}.

These templates also take care to register the pages in the
appropriate namespaces, so a curator can see which pages are in
which categories. I like workflow processes like this because any
effort has a 'long tail' of incomplete, partial, bad, and promising
ideas that don't quite fit into the existing structure of the wiki.

mi'e .alyn.

* = adding that is on my list, it doesn't exist yet.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:29:43AM -0800, vruxir wrote:
> I'm of the opinion that it would benefit a future Wiki if it has imported
> ALL the contents from the TWiki. If that can be done automatically, then
> hopefully there's also a way to automatically place a "Cleanup" box at the
> top of each imported article, saying something to the effect of:
> "This article was imported from the old lojban.org Tiki Wiki and may not
> meet the content and style guidelines of this Wiki. Please see our
> _content and style guidelines_ and clean up this article. If you feel that
> the article is named inappropriately, the article can be moved to a new
> name. Do not remove this tag until the article is up to standards."
> Then you'll want to have some content and style guidelines, probably
> inspired by Wikipedia or other successful Wikis.
> (When you move an article to a new name, the old name becomes a redirect;
> if you replace the old name with a new article, you can insert tags at the
> top of the article with suggestions to visit the moved article. See, for

> example, the top of the article [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [2]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J.

> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>

> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> 2. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J

[la gleki]

Lojbananas, I've switched off my creative mind recently so my future work on LMW will be exclusively described as "add and add and add... and stupidly add more content".

So my questions.

1. If you want ALL the pages from the old wiki migrated please contact camgusmis or other people that have access to TikiWiki yourself to get a dump of all pages. If you can show that your method of importing it back to your own distribution of mediawiki works then of course together with me we'll import all the pages to LMW.

1a. If you (tsani + me + probably some other jbopre) don't like pages for geeks being present there why not move them into a separate namespace or just prefix them with "Pages for developers/" or similar string?

2. What plugins do you currently need?

SemanticMW.... got it.

anything else?

[selpa'i]

Am 13.11.2012 15:56, schrieb Jacob Errington:
> What I think would be neat is that we could try maintaining some kind of
> roster of jbopre, with self-reported levels of proficiency, activity in
> the community, and a list of works produced or other community
> contributions.

I think I like this idea. It would also help us get a better overview of
just how many speakers there are overall. Anyone we meet that isn't on
that list already, we will ask to make an entry for themselves.
Eventually, every known jbopre should be on that list, which means
counting them is less of a wild guess.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku


.


.

[.alyn.post.]

Let me see if I understand:

1) you create a new platform and obsolete the work I've done.
2) you make it my problem that my data isn't available.

Did I miss anything?

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 06:02:03AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> Lojbananas, I've switched off my creative mind recently so my future work
> on LMW will be exclusively described as "add and add and add... and
> stupidly add more content".
> So my questions.
> 1. If you want ALL the pages from the old wiki migrated please contact
> camgusmis or other people that have access to TikiWiki yourself to get a
> dump of all pages. If you can show that your method of importing it back
> to your own distribution of mediawiki works then of course together with
> me we'll import all the pages to LMW.
> 1a. If you (tsani + me + probably some other jbopre) don't like pages for
> geeks being present there why not move them into a separate namespace or
> just prefix them with "Pages for developers/" or similar string?
> 2. What plugins do you currently need?
> SemanticMW.... got it.
> anything else?
>
> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 11:47:05 PM UTC+4, .alyn.post. wrote:
>
> I like the suggestion of a {{cleanup}} template. I've been working
> on general workflow templates over at OpenCog:
>

> [1]http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation

>
> And they are similar to this idea. You can mark a page as a
> {{stub}}, mark it as work in progress ({{WIP}})* write it until
> it's a {{proposal}}, and then {{withdraw}} it if it's a bad idea
> or tag it with a {{version}} if it becomes a feature. Later work
> may cause it to be {{obsolete}} and if you don't keep it in sync
> it might get {{out of date}}.
>
> These templates also take care to register the pages in the
> appropriate namespaces, so a curator can see which pages are in
> which categories. I like workflow processes like this because any
> effort has a 'long tail' of incomplete, partial, bad, and promising
> ideas that don't quite fit into the existing structure of the wiki.
>
> mi'e .alyn.
>
> * = adding that is on my list, it doesn't exist yet.
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:29:43AM -0800, vruxir wrote:
> > I'm of the opinion that it would benefit a future Wiki if it has
> imported
> > ALL the contents from the TWiki. If that can be done automatically,
> then
> > hopefully there's also a way to automatically place a "Cleanup" box
> at the
> > top of each imported article, saying something to the effect of:

> > "This article was imported from the old [2]lojban.org Tiki Wiki and

> may not
> > meet the content and style guidelines of this Wiki. Please see our
> > _content and style guidelines_ and clean up this article. If you
> feel that
> > the article is named inappropriately, the article can be moved to a
> new
> > name. Do not remove this tag until the article is up to standards."
> > Then you'll want to have some content and style guidelines,
> probably
> > inspired by Wikipedia or other successful Wikis.
> > (When you move an article to a new name, the old name becomes a
> redirect;
> > if you replace the old name with a new article, you can insert tags
> at the
> > top of the article with suggestions to visit the moved article.
> See, for
> > example, the top of the article

> [1][3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

> > [2][4]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J.
> > To post to this group, send email to [5]loj...@googlegroups.com.

> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > [6]lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.

> > For more options, visit this group at

> > [7]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >
> > References
> >
> > Visible links
> > 1. [8]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> > 2. [9]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J

>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [10]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/WCfLQSvTsUQJ.

> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>
> References
>
> Visible links

> 1. http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation
> 2. http://lojban.org/
> 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> 4. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
> 5. javascript:
> 6. javascript:
> 7. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 8. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> 9. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
> 10. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/WCfLQSvTsUQJ

[iesk]

There is a ‘bug’ (or inconvenience): The wiki seems to be set up in English. So, the menu is in English if you are not logged in. And, what’s worse, it seems that to-be-translated pages can only be created in English, so the software considers all other language versions as translations from the English, which is probably very bad, and certainly bad looking in what I think/hope is going to be a Lojbanic wiki for everybody.

For example, http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/ralju_ckupau/nds is the result of me trying to translate http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/ralju_ckupau/jbo (help appreciated!), but the software thinks it is a translation of http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/ralju_ckupau (which is also stupidly named, as you can see).

(So, if I want to create a page in any language, do I have to set up a dummy page in English first and then make the real page a fake translation?)

Sorry, I know near nothing about Mediawiki, let alone that translation extension. Maybe there is no problem at all, and I just don’t get it.

-iesk

Le lundi 24 septembre 2012 19:47:47 UTC+2, la gleki a écrit :

Basically it's MediaWiki (the same engine as in Wikipedia). I also installed rss and wysiwyg (for editing a-la text processor) plugins.

Let's test it.

What would you like to see in it? What to change in formatting of pages?

http://www.lojban.overt-ops.com/index.php?title=ralju_ckupau

[la gleki]

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 9:04:56 PM UTC+4, .alyn.post. wrote:

Let me see if I understand:

1) you create a new platform and obsolete the work I've done.
2) you make it my problem that my data isn't available.

I don't have a dump of Tikiwiki and I don't know what to do with it so that I can transfer all it's contents to Mediawiki.

the only thing i found on the internet was a company  that offered such migration for xo'e rupnu.

If you know how to do that please let me know. I'd be nice if you show me on a separate wiki the result of your work.

[la gleki]

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 12:55:31 AM UTC+4, iesk wrote:

There is a ‘bug’ (or inconvenience): The wiki seems to be set up in English.

 

So, the menu is in English if you are not logged in.

Hmm.... this is definitely a bug (or may be the wiki takes settings from your browser settings?)

 

And, what’s worse, it seems that to-be-translated pages can only be created in English, so the software considers all other language versions as translations from the English, which is probably very bad, and certainly bad looking in what I think/hope is going to be a Lojbanic wiki for everybody.

If only lojbanists are contributors this won't be a great problem. pe'i there must be some default language. What if the default language is lojban? Would that suit you?

[iesk]

I think it would be best if there were no default or base language. If ther mußt be, then it should be Lojban rather than English.

I don't See btw how enforcing English as the default language of the wiki pages could *not* be a problèm ...

Also please accept my apology for the wording 'stupidly named'. All I meant is, '<Lojban title>' for the English page and '<Lojban title>/jbo' for the Lojban Page is no good solution, obviously.

Sorry for Bad typing.

Iesk

[la gleki]

Well, I won't defend Translate Extension. If someone can fix that please do.

[la gleki]

UPD: Hmm ... I just saw the following string in LocalSettings.php

$wgLanguageCode = "en";

I immediately changed it to

$wgLanguageCode = "jbo";

Now the default language of non-logged-in users is lojban.

So... how does Translate Extension treat pages now? Are they now in lojban by default?

[vruxir]

Now the default page, when you visit http://mw.lojban.org/, is http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/Ralju_Ckupau

Note the capital letters. The text of that page is nonexistent. However, returning to http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/ralju_ckupau -- that page is still the English one, and that+/jbo is the lojban one.

[vruxir]

Oh, but my sidebar is all in lojban now. And clicking on "cunso ckupau" (random page) brings me to some English pages, some lojban pages.

mu'o

[vruxir]

So, now, the default page is http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/ralju_ckupau/jbo -- which is the lojban version of the front page. But shouldn't the English version be "ralju_ckupau/eng" instead of "ralju_ckupau"? Is there a way to swap things around like that?

And should the Lojban version be "ralju_ckupau" or "ralju_ckupau/jbo"?

More to the point, I guess: Must there exist one version of each page URL which has no "/lang" suffix? If so, the page content of the non-suffixed URL should be in the same language as the title of that page. (For example, "ralju_ckupau" is the title in lojban, so the unadorned "ralju_ckupau" page would be in Lojban. If it is in English, it should be renamed to "Main_Page".)

However, if it is unnecessary for the non-language-suffixed page to have any content (i.e. every page in every language has some "/lang" ending on it), it would still have to have some title in the URL in order for the "/lang" versions to exist, and it would have to automatically redirect to a default language instead of having content.

Presumably Lojban is the only neutral option, so I guess either:

1) every base page should be URL-titled in lojban, and the non-suffixed version of the page is written in lojban, and there are no "/jbo" pages

or

2) every base page should be URL-titled in lojban, and the non-suffixed version of the page should redirect to "itself/<lang>" where <lang> depends on your user settings, defaulting to "/jbo", OR it redirects to the same language as the page which linked you there, if you followed a link (though I think internal hyperlinks should include the appropriate "/lang" ending in most cases).

In both cases, the URL title would be in lojban, but within the content of each translated page, it would show the title in its own language; this already seems to be the case now (i.e. "ralju_ckupau/nds" is called "Hööftsiet"; "ralju_ckupau/ru" is called "Главная страница").

Make sense?

mu'o mi'e vruxir

[entot]

I like the idea of adding a {{cleanup}} template too.

Now I'm leaning towards the option of importing all pages.

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:03:00 AM UTC+9, .alyn.post. wrote:

I'm 100% onboard with improving the user experience of our wiki: I 
find the TWiki frustrating in that regard too.  I'm not certain what 
tools mediawiki gives us to mitigate this problem: it's a function 

of the content rather than the platform [snip]

I argue that having a familiar-looking interface itself is an

improvement to the user experience. Also a better editing

experience, which I think MediaWiki offers over TWiki,

facilitates better content organization.

mu'o

[vruxir]

Here's what I've learned about the current Tiki Wiki: it has 2,363 articles. You can see a full list of them here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php

What I can't seem to do is get a full "dump" (export) of the articles. It might be that the feature isn't turned on by the administrator. Instructions for doing so are here: http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps

There is a python script (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion) which converts TikiWiki dumps to MediaWiki XML files. It requires the dumped .tar file; also requires MySQL access to the Tiki server to "create an XML dump of the metadata for the Tiki images". The instructions for doing so are on the page linked in this paragraph.

Now that I've fooled with the MediaWiki translate feature a little bit, I see that it is kind of finicky, and it defaults to English, and that, for example, "ralju_ckupau/en" means the same thing as "ralju_ckupau" (except that the article title does not depend exclusively on the URL in the "/en" version).

One (possible) problem with the translation tool is that it seems like you have to define the structure of the page in English (or the default language) before you can create a translation. You can divide the page into a number of "chunks" ("messages") to be translated, or you can probably make the whole page be a single "chunk". How many "chunks" you define determines how well you can monitor the quality of translations.

A nastier problem is that the Tiki Wiki pages are in many languages; some are all English, others all Lojban, others (such as discussion pages and self-introduction pages) may be in more than one language. The primary language of a Tiki article is optionally marked, but usually it is not marked. So, when importing all those Tiki articles into a MediaWiki framework, they might all have to be temporarily dumped into the default language namespace, then marked with a tag saying "This article was uploaded from the old Tiki Wiki and is marked as being (Lojban/English/Whatever the default is). If the language of this article is different, please move it to the appropriate namespace."

But moving the article to the appropriate language might not be straightforward... I'll have to mess around with it and see. I'm still not clear on whether you can base an article in a language other than the default, and ensure that the original article (in whatever language) is the basis for other translations.

mu'o mi'e vruxir

[.alyn.post.]

I can shed light on the translation issue.

Mediawiki is primarily developed for Wikipedia, which is a course a
massively multilingual project, but you'll notice that they run
different instances of Mediawiki for each language. In that sense,
any specific installation of mediawiki largely to entirely consists
of a single language, while the family of installations supports
many.

I believe the recommended practice for using mediawiki in multiple
languages is to install one site for each language you'd like to
support.

There is work on addressing this problem for users outside of the
wikimedia foundation:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Language_in_MediaWiki
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multilingual_MediaWiki

And some extensions that help with certain aspects of this problem:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Translate
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DoubleWiki

But I believe that as it stands today, if you want two languages
that are both first class citizens in your wiki, you deploy two
mediawiki instances and cross-link them with interwiki links like
Wikipedia does with it's wikis.

-Alan

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 01:40:04PM -0800, vruxir wrote:
> Here's what I've learned about the current Tiki Wiki: it has 2,363
> articles. You can see a full list of them

> here: [1]http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php

> What I can't seem to do is get a full "dump" (export) of the articles. It
> might be that the feature isn't turned on by the administrator.
> Instructions for doing so are

> here: [2]http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps

> There is a python script

> ([3]http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion) which

> [4]http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation

>
> And they are similar to this idea. You can mark a page as a
> {{stub}}, mark it as work in progress ({{WIP}})* write it until
> it's a {{proposal}}, and then {{withdraw}} it if it's a bad idea
> or tag it with a {{version}} if it becomes a feature. Later work
> may cause it to be {{obsolete}} and if you don't keep it in sync
> it might get {{out of date}}.
>
> These templates also take care to register the pages in the
> appropriate namespaces, so a curator can see which pages are in
> which categories. I like workflow processes like this because any
> effort has a 'long tail' of incomplete, partial, bad, and promising
> ideas that don't quite fit into the existing structure of the wiki.
>
> mi'e .alyn.
>
> * = adding that is on my list, it doesn't exist yet.
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:29:43AM -0800, vruxir wrote:
> > I'm of the opinion that it would benefit a future Wiki if it has
> imported
> > ALL the contents from the TWiki. If that can be done
> automatically, then
> > hopefully there's also a way to automatically place a "Cleanup"
> box at the
> > top of each imported article, saying something to the effect of:

> > "This article was imported from the old [5]lojban.org Tiki Wiki

> and may not
> > meet the content and style guidelines of this Wiki. Please see
> our
> > _content and style guidelines_ and clean up this article. If you
> feel that
> > the article is named inappropriately, the article can be moved to
> a new
> > name. Do not remove this tag until the article is up to
> standards."
> > Then you'll want to have some content and style guidelines,
> probably
> > inspired by Wikipedia or other successful Wikis.
> > (When you move an article to a new name, the old name becomes a
> redirect;
> > if you replace the old name with a new article, you can insert
> tags at the
> > top of the article with suggestions to visit the moved article.
> See, for
> > example, the top of the article

> [1][6]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

> > [2][7]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J.

> > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at

> > [8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >
> > References
> >
> > Visible links
> > 1. [9]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> > 2. [10]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J

>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [11]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/k82SpExmkYYJ.

> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>
> References
>
> Visible links

> 1. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php
> 2. http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps
> 3. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion
> 4. http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation
> 5. http://lojban.org/
> 6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> 7. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
> 8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 9. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> 10. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
> 11. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/k82SpExmkYYJ

[entot]

On Friday, November 16, 2012 6:40:04 AM UTC+9, vruxir wrote:

Here's what I've learned about the current Tiki Wiki: it has 2,363 articles. You can see a full list of them here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php

 

Here's a rough categorization of around 1,200 of the TWiki pages.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqPDUjCrM_cfdDI5NzBIMzhCRHZJWGF2Tzl4R245N3c#gid=2

It lists all the pages (2,357 of them) at the time of the creation of the spreadsheet, which was one or two months ago. So it lacks those 6 pages that were created since then.

Pages in a language other than English or Lojban are categorized as "wiki translation."

mu'o

[.alyn.post.]

Interesting,

how do you interpret this? I think you divided the pages into
chunks and then went through each chunk to classify them into
these ~4 categories, but to what purpose? What conclusion is
there to draw?

-Alan

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 03:00:36PM -0800, entot wrote:
> On Friday, November 16, 2012 6:40:04 AM UTC+9, vruxir wrote:
>
> Here's what I've learned about the current Tiki Wiki: it has 2,363
> articles. You can see a full list of them

> here: [1]http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php

>
>
> Here's a rough categorization of around 1,200 of the TWiki pages.
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqPDUjCrM_cfdDI5NzBIMzhCRHZJWGF2Tzl4R245N3c#gid=2
> It lists all the pages (2,357 of them) at the time of the creation of the
> spreadsheet, which was one or two months ago. So it lacks those 6 pages
> that were created since then.
> Pages in a language other than English or Lojban are categorized as "wiki
> translation."
> mu'o
>
> On Friday, November 16, 2012 6:40:04 AM UTC+9, vruxir wrote:
>
> Here's what I've learned about the current Tiki Wiki: it has 2,363
> articles. You can see a full list of them

> here: [2]http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php

> What I can't seem to do is get a full "dump" (export) of the articles.
> It might be that the feature isn't turned on by the administrator.
> Instructions for doing so are

> here: [3]http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps

> There is a python script

> ([4]http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion) which

> [5]http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation

>
> And they are similar to this idea. You can mark a page as a
> {{stub}}, mark it as work in progress ({{WIP}})* write it until
> it's a {{proposal}}, and then {{withdraw}} it if it's a bad idea
> or tag it with a {{version}} if it becomes a feature. Later work
> may cause it to be {{obsolete}} and if you don't keep it in sync
> it might get {{out of date}}.
>
> These templates also take care to register the pages in the
> appropriate namespaces, so a curator can see which pages are in
> which categories. I like workflow processes like this because any
> effort has a 'long tail' of incomplete, partial, bad, and promising
> ideas that don't quite fit into the existing structure of the wiki.
>
> mi'e .alyn.
>
> * = adding that is on my list, it doesn't exist yet.
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:29:43AM -0800, vruxir wrote:
> > I'm of the opinion that it would benefit a future Wiki if it
> has imported
> > ALL the contents from the TWiki. If that can be done
> automatically, then
> > hopefully there's also a way to automatically place a "Cleanup"
> box at the
> > top of each imported article, saying something to the effect
> of:

> > "This article was imported from the old [6]lojban.org Tiki Wiki

> and may not
> > meet the content and style guidelines of this Wiki. Please see
> our
> > _content and style guidelines_ and clean up this article. If
> you feel that
> > the article is named inappropriately, the article can be moved
> to a new
> > name. Do not remove this tag until the article is up to
> standards."
> > Then you'll want to have some content and style guidelines,
> probably
> > inspired by Wikipedia or other successful Wikis.
> > (When you move an article to a new name, the old name becomes a
> redirect;
> > if you replace the old name with a new article, you can insert
> tags at the
> > top of the article with suggestions to visit the moved article.
> See, for
> > example, the top of the article

> [1][7]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

> > [2][8]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J.

> > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at

> > [9]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
> >
> > References
> >
> > Visible links
> > 1. [10]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> > 2. [11]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J

>
> --
> .i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> [12]https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/ePyF4rRxbBMJ.

> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>
> References
>
> Visible links

> 1. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php
> 2. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php
> 3. http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps
> 4. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion
> 5. http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Curation
> 6. http://lojban.org/
> 7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> 8. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
> 9. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en
> 10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
> 11. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/01evXYCxTw8J
> 12. https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/ePyF4rRxbBMJ

[la gleki]

On Friday, November 16, 2012 1:40:04 AM UTC+4, vruxir wrote:

Here's what I've learned about the current Tiki Wiki: it has 2,363 articles. You can see a full list of them here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-listpages.php

What I can't seem to do is get a full "dump" (export) of the articles. It might be that the feature isn't turned on by the administrator. Instructions for doing so are here: http://doc.tiki.org/Wiki+Config#Dumps

There is a python script (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:TikiWiki_Conversion) which converts TikiWiki dumps to MediaWiki XML files. It requires the dumped .tar file; also requires MySQL access to the Tiki server to "create an XML dump of the metadata for the Tiki images". The instructions for doing so are on the page linked in this paragraph.

Now that I've fooled with the MediaWiki translate feature a little bit, I see that it is kind of finicky, and it defaults to English, and that, for example, "ralju_ckupau/en" means the same thing as "ralju_ckupau" (except that the article title does not depend exclusively on the URL in the "/en" version).

I hope you are wrong because ralju ckupau was created before I made lojban the default language of the wiki.

Try creating another page.

[iesk]

How about
- not using a translation extension;
- setting the default (= menu display and so on) language to Lojban (logged in users may be able to change it for themselves);
- letting everybody write in what language(s) (s)he prefers;
- using tags ('categories'?) like 'eng', 'deu', 'jbo', ... whatever;
- preparing templates like 'This is a translation of [[bla]].' or 'Cf. [[corresponding page]] in [[language]].' to be used where seen fit?

A bit chaotic perhaps, but less demanding for users/editors, I believe.

-iesk

[la gleki]

Show us how you see it. Create a bunch of pages in меру format you are describing.

[iesk]

I did, but I can’t even convince myself that it is any good :/
http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Category:cipra

Also: ‘меру’?

-iesk

[entot]

The major motivation to create this spreadsheet was to

overcome the vague fear I had about the wiki. I learn

primarily through textual information, but something was

holding me back from diving into the wiki.

Guessing the reason was I didn't have a big picture

of the wiki, I decided to get a list of all pages and go

through it one by one, and induce a rough categorization

scheme from them. There are about 20~ categories now.

The chunking is done to make the whole task easier

by placing small intermediate goals along the way.

As for conclusions, I can say that:

* The organizational problem of the wiki is not insurmountable,

  since a single person could go about this much work.

  The pages are only about twice the number of gismu, after all.

* This is not something new...but establishing workflows

  for projects and proposals can go a great length in

  informing latecomers and active members alike.

  Without any meta info indicating the status of a proposal,

  I had to rely on the last modified date of a page to

  determine if it was relevant to the current baseline or not.

mu'o

[entot]

On Friday, November 16, 2012 3:25:53 PM UTC+9, iesk wrote:

- setting the default (= menu display and so on) language to Lojban (logged in users may be able to change it for themselves);

Since the purpose of the wiki includes introducing Lojban to people who doesn't know about it (doesn't it?), wouldn't it be better to have English as the default interface language?

It seems to be the most used language on the internet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet

mu'o

[iesk]

@ entot

Please, no.

I have no time and lousy net access until at least Thursday, may give my reasons later. If Joe-Newbie voices count in any way, please count mine as a 'no' to defining another (budding) Lojban environment as English-centric.

-iesk

[iesk]

[la gleki]

A quick and short reply from me <.ienaisai>

English is not the most common language on the planet (my updated method of generating gismu uses data from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers) and English is No 2.

I guess you just don't see any method of overriding this but I hope I can fix that soon. LMW will be opened in the language of your browser (for those who are not logged in).

Making Lojban the default language in LMW indeed would force us to write articles in Lojban first and therefore increase our own lojbanic skills (this idea was mentioned in IRC by la tsani ku .io)

Now some news.

1. CavendishMW skin added (though I don't like it but others might do).
   
2. Semantic Mediawiki added and installed.
   
3. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HTMLets added.
   
4. Autocapitalisation of the name of articles disabled.
   

 

mu'o

 

[.alyn.post.]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 08:05:34AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> On Monday, November 19, 2012 8:47:45 PM UTC+4, entot wrote:
>
> On Friday, November 16, 2012 3:25:53 PM UTC+9, iesk wrote:
>
> - setting the default (= menu display and so on) language to Lojban
> (logged in users may be able to change it for themselves);
>
> Since the purpose of the wiki includes introducing Lojban to people who
> doesn't know about it (doesn't it?), wouldn't it be better to have
> English as the default interface language?
> It seems to be the most used language on the internet:

> [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet

>
> A quick and short reply from me <.ienaisai>

> English is not the most common language on the planet ([2]my updated

> method of generating gismu uses data from here
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers)
> and English is No 2.
> I guess you just don't see any method of overriding this but I hope I can
> fix that soon. LMW will be opened in the language of your browser (for
> those who are not logged in).
> Making Lojban the default language in LMW indeed would force us to write
> articles in Lojban first and therefore increase our own lojbanic skills
> (this idea was mentioned in IRC by la tsani ku .io)
> Now some news.
>

> 1. CavendishMW skin added (though I don't like it but others might do).
> 2. Semantic Mediawiki added and installed.
> 3. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HTMLets added.
> 4. Autocapitalisation of the name of articles disabled.
>

If you enabled this how I think you did, it is probably more touble
than it's worth. A lot of templates on wikipedia and other places
are sloppy with case, which you can solve using #REDIRECT for pages
but I have not figured out how to solve for namespaces.

My experimentation with this option caused templates to cease being
useful, so I reverted to using the {{lowercase}} template from
wikipedia instead of enabling this option.

[Jonathan Jones]

Um, he said DISabled, not ENabled....
 

mi'e .alyn.
--
.i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du

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.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[.alyn.post.]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 09:37:51AM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:29 AM, .alyn.post.
> <[1]alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 08:05:34AM -0800, la gleki wrote:

> > * *On Monday, November 19, 2012 8:47:45 PM UTC+4, entot wrote:
> >
> > * * *On Friday, November 16, 2012 3:25:53 PM UTC+9, iesk wrote:
> >
> > * * * *- setting the default (= menu display and so on) language to
> Lojban
> > * * * *(logged in users may be able to change it for themselves);
> >
> > * * *Since the purpose of the wiki includes introducing Lojban to
> people who
> > * * *doesn't know about it (doesn't it?), wouldn't it be better to
> have
> > * * *English as the default interface language?
> > * * *It seems to be the most used language on the internet:
> > * * *[1][2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet
> >
> > * *A quick and short reply from me <.ienaisai>
> > * *English is not the most common language on the planet ([2]my
> updated
> > * *method of generating gismu uses data from here
> > *
> *[3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers)
> > * *and English is No 2.
> > * *I guess you just don't see any method of overriding this but I hope
> I can
> > * *fix that soon. LMW will be opened in the language of your browser
> (for
> > * *those who are not logged in).
> > * *Making Lojban the default language in LMW indeed would force us to
> write
> > * *articles in Lojban first and therefore increase our own lojbanic
> skills
> > * *(this idea was mentioned in IRC by la tsani ku .io)
> > * *Now some news.
> >
> > * * 1. CavendishMW skin added (though I don't like it but others might
> do).
> > * * 2. Semantic Mediawiki added and installed.
> > * * 3. [4]http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HTMLets added.
> > * * 4. Autocapitalisation of the name of articles disabled.

> >
>
> If you enabled this how I think you did, it is probably more touble

> than it's worth. *A lot of templates on wikipedia and other places

> are sloppy with case, which you can solve using #REDIRECT for pages
> but I have not figured out how to solve for namespaces.
>
> My experimentation with this option caused templates to cease being
> useful, so I reverted to using the {{lowercase}} template from
> wikipedia instead of enabling this option.
>
> Um, he said DISabled, not ENabled....

> *
>

Ah, Mediawiki is a bit weird this way. It by default capitalizes
the first word of a page, which I assume is what gleki refers to
as Autocapitalization. Disabling this changes the default, which
is why I said "enabling." You have to actively work to make
mediawiki not do this.

-Alan

[la gleki]

Heh, Alan is right. I just added
$wgCapitalLinks = false;

ti'e we can do that on a per namespace basis.
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgCapitalLinkOverrides 

$wgCapitalLinkOverrides[ NS_FILE ] = false;

What should I put instead of NS_FILE? mi mutce se cfipu tu'a la'oi settings

[.alyn.post.]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 08:58:15AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 8:50:44 PM UTC+4, .alyn.post. wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 09:37:51AM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:29 AM, .alyn.post.
> > <[1][1]alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 08:05:34AM -0800, la gleki wrote:
> > > * *On Monday, November 19, 2012 8:47:45 PM UTC+4, entot wrote:
> > >
> > > * * *On Friday, November 16, 2012 3:25:53 PM UTC+9, iesk wrote:
> > >
> > > * * * *- setting the default (= menu display and so on)
> language to
> > Lojban
> > > * * * *(logged in users may be able to change it for
> themselves);
> > >
> > > * * *Since the purpose of the wiki includes introducing Lojban
> to
> > people who
> > > * * *doesn't know about it (doesn't it?), wouldn't it be better
> to
> > have
> > > * * *English as the default interface language?
> > > * * *It seems to be the most used language on the internet:
> > > * *

> *[1][2][2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_used_on_the_Internet

> > >
> > > * *A quick and short reply from me <.ienaisai>
> > > * *English is not the most common language on the planet ([2]my
> > updated
> > > * *method of generating gismu uses data from here
> > > *
> >

> *[3][3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers)

> > > * *and English is No 2.
> > > * *I guess you just don't see any method of overriding this but
> I hope
> > I can
> > > * *fix that soon. LMW will be opened in the language of your
> browser
> > (for
> > > * *those who are not logged in).
> > > * *Making Lojban the default language in LMW indeed would force
> us to
> > write
> > > * *articles in Lojban first and therefore increase our own
> lojbanic
> > skills
> > > * *(this idea was mentioned in IRC by la tsani ku .io)
> > > * *Now some news.
> > >
> > > * * 1. CavendishMW skin added (though I don't like it but
> others might
> > do).
> > > * * 2. Semantic Mediawiki added and installed.

> > > * * 3. [4][4]http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:HTMLets

Nice, this is the first time I've been exposed to this option. The
last I played with capitalization I tried aliases namespaces without
much luck. You should set NS_TEMPLATE to false. We might have to
do NS_CATEGORY too, but I think things will work without doing
NS_CATEGORY and it would be nice to not have initial uppercase.

ma'a ba lifri la'e di'u => Let's see what comes of it!

mi'e .alyn.

[Marc Laporte]

Hi!

Re-sending message below as I got an error message the first time I posted and I am not sure it got through. (and no one replied after 9 days)

Best regards,

M ;-)

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 3:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marcl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi!

I am a project admin for Tiki and I'd like to share some information.

1- On this list, some refer to Twiki and some to Tiki. These are two distinct projects.
Tiki Wiki CMS Groupware (or just Tiki) is in PHP  http://tiki.org
Twiki is in Perl   http://twiki.org

It's important that you know this, so if you do some research and comparison, you'll be looking at the right tool.


2- Changing tools takes time & energy and data is lost. What features are you missing in Tiki?

Tiki has been for several years now, the Free and Open Source Web Application with the most built-in features
http://tiki.org/FOSS+Web+Application+with+the+most+built-in+features

Let me repeat that to be very clear. Of all the web applications in the World, Tiki is the FOSS web app with the most built-in features. Chances are, what you need/want is just a checkbox away. You can use for much more than just a wiki but everything to do with the community (forums, blog, calendar, issue/task tracker, etc.)

2a) "I can't embed pictures on tiki pages like on MediaWiki" -> embedding pictures exists, just need to activate. All wikis handle pictures!  And coming to Tiki10 (now in Alpha): the World's first full-featured both Open Source and Web-based screencasting solution: http://doc.tiki.org/Screencast   Not only can it take a snapshot of your desktop, you can even draw on the image, or even record your screen with audio!   Having audio recordings of Lojban terms in wiki pages would be cool, no?

2b) "MediaWiki seems to provide better editing support and, most importantly, a place to shove all of our discussions"

Tiki has:
http://doc.tiki.org/Comments
http://doc.tiki.org/Inline+comments

Please let me know what better editing support you need.

The wiki toolbar (with buttons for bold, italic, etc.) is not activated on lojban.org    Go try demo.tiki.org to see what it's like normally.
http://doc.tiki.org/Toolbar

2c) "fresh start"

Tiki has a powerful category system. You could categorize all pages, and from the category, have a different theme or permissions. So eventually, old pages can be kept but not visible by anonymous users.
http://doc.tiki.org/Category

This permits a fresh start without the risk of duplicating data.

3- Tiki has superb multilingual handling. It's all detailed here:
http://wiki-translation.com/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=55&download=y

I challenge anyone to find a more advanced system. I presented several times, including at the latest WikiMania:
https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Cross-lingual_Wiki_Engine

No one has anything like this. Wikipedia has a different instance for each language. This makes it difficult to do content tracking, although they have a system to track the corresponding page-link in the other language. But this means that you need to add a new MediaWiki instance for each language. In Tiki, you just add a page, and no extra work is needed to add a new language.

4- Here is an example of a community than went from MediaWiki to Tiki, to have more features:
http://www.ogre3d.org/tikiwiki/Ogre+Wiki+Help

Not only is Tiki the web app with the most built-in features, no other major CMS / Web app has released more major versions in the last 4 year:
* 2009-05: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki3 LTS
* 2009-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki4
* 2010-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki5
* 2010-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki6 LTS
* 2011-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki7
* 2011-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki8
* 2012-06: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki9 LTS
* 2012-11: http://doc.tiki.org/Tiki10 (in alpha at the moment)

To be fair, WordPress also had 8 major releases during the same approximative time frame (http://wordpress.org/about/roadmap/). More recently than Tiki, Typo3 and Joomla! have moved to a 6-month release cycle. But in all these cases, with their extension-based model, not all features are ready at the same time. And sometimes, extensions are never ported to the next version. Thanks to the Tiki model, we have inherent synchronized releases
http://tiki.org/Model#Inherent_synchronized_releases

With over 50% of browser usage on the rapid release cycle (Chrome and Firefox), it makes perfect sense for web applications to have a rapid release cycle as well. Tiki is well positioned to take advantage of all the innovations! However, some people are happy with the current feature set, and Long Term Support (LTS) versions were introduced in 2009, and more recently, we doubled the support period: http://info.tiki.org/Version+Lifecycle

Tiki turned 10 years old last month
http://info.tiki.org/article201-A-Decade-of-Tiki

Tiki reached 500 contributors with commit access (top project on SourceForge.net)
http://info.tiki.org/article188-Tiki-reaches-500-contributors-with-commit-access
     Listen to the podcast!

Tiki Passed 1 Million Downloads
http://info.tiki.org/article192-Tiki-Passes-1-Million-Downloads

Tiki wins People's Choice: Best Free CMS of the CMS Critic's awards
https://info.tiki.org/article206-Tiki-wins-People-s-Choice-Best-Free-CMS

Tiki was named best "Best Web Tool" by WebHostingSearch.com
http://info.tiki.org/article197-Tiki-Named-Best-Web-Tool

And for previous news, see 2011 Year in Review:
http://info.tiki.org/article181-2011-Year-in-Review

I think you'll agree: it's pretty impressive!

And Tiki has features that MediaWiki will never have.

There is also the Interactive Translation feature: http://doc.tiki.org/Interactive+Translation
This permits web-based, in-context translations of the interface. So community members can translate not only the content but also the app to Lojban!

So I suggest:

1- Make a list of what you want
2- Upgrade Tiki to latest version  (your version seems to be 2 years old)
3- Then, decide to keep or change.

Best regards,

M ;-)

PS. Below is a copy-paste of a generic list of Top Reasons to Use Tiki:

1. A confident and future-proof choice :
   • Over a million downloads and counting
   • Tiki has been nominated for, and received, several awards
   • Uses top-notch Underlying technologies:
     • PHP scripting language
     • MySQL or MariaDB database
     • Smarty template engine
     • jQuery JavaScript library
     • Zend Framework
2. A vibrant community
   • IRC chat room, discussion forums, documentation, etc.
   • If you want hired help, or want to offer services, there is a Tiki Service Provider program
   • Tiki is a community recursively building a community management system, which is called Dogfooding
3. Tons of features:
   • Over 1,500 unique features/options making it the Free and Open Source Web Application with the most built-in features
   • Ideal for most use cases, such as Collaboration, Publishing, Commerce, Social networking, Office productivity tools, E-learning, etc.
   • Has the breadth and depth to most likely address your specific needs as it has been developed through the collaborative work of hundreds of contributors for over 10 years.
4. Features are built-in
   • No need to research, choose, download and install additional modules/extensions/plugins: There is no feature duplication. All the features are built-in, collaboratively maintained by the community, so you avoid the pain of abandoned modules/plugins/extensions.
   • Everything works with everything: The whole community collaborates on the features instead of having modules/extensions/plugins which may have incompatibilities. Turn everything on and it will work. Try that with modules/extensions/plugins!
   • Quick timely upgrades: When a new version of Tiki comes out, you can upgrade right away and all the features are available.
5. Interoperable:
   • Can run on any Operating System (Windows, Mac or Linux)
   • Works with any browser
   • Interoperability with a very large number of online services, complementary software, technologies and standards.
6. Open Collaboration: If you need a new feature, join the community and let's work together. If you are a developer, check out How to get commit access
7. Innovation: For the latest and greatest and quick access to new features, use the rapid release cycle, with 2 new major releases per year. No other major web applications has had more major releases since 2008. On average, developers update the code (with new features and fixes) over a dozen times every day.
8. Stability: For a super stable system with very few changes: Use the Long Term Support (LTS) versions, which is supported for 3.5 years.
9. Easy install: You can use the 1-click installers. All the features, languages, etc. are available in the basic install.
10. Easy to configure : All features/options are activated from the web-based control panel.
11. Adaptable: By default, only a small number of basic, commonly-used features appear in the control panel. As your needs grow, you can also display advanced and experimental features/options.
12. Easy upgrades: Upgrade from any past version to any supported version in one step. (so you can upgrade from 2.x to 15.x)
    • No need to deal with diverse release dates of core software vs modules/plugins/extensions
13. No lock-in: Community supported, no single vendor.
14. Free: free & open source software, licensed as LGPL.

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M ;-)

Marc Laporte
http://marclaporte.com
http://avantech.net
http://tiki.org

[la gleki]

The shortest answer to you will be "No one among us has enough free time/skills/expertise... to do that".

Don't give orders like "Update this, activate that..."

If you are willing to help us yourself please do.

[la gleki]

The default language of the wiki is now Lojban.

All pages created are in Lojban by default.

So it's no longer an issue.

[entot]

It's not a question of if the default language is English or not. It's a question of whether we present a Lojban-only page to a newcomer. I think showing a Lojbanic interface and Lojban-only content to a newcomer is not friendly.

If the primary language is Lojban, are you, doi la gleki. .e la .iesk., fine with importing all the pages from TWiki to LMW? Lots of them are in English.

ni'o

I'm holding off any work I said or hinted I'd be doing (working on the community portal and migrating) until I get a clear picture of what the site organization is going to be [1]:

* Who is the target audience?

* What content will it have, in what language?

As far as I understand, there are two interests at hand:

* Target audience: Lojban speakers

* Content: Anything in Lojban? / Translation projects, Lojbanic writings, Lojbanists index

* Target audience: Lojban learners

* Content: Learning materials in English and other languages around the world

If this is the case, I think it's not out of the question to maintain two separate wikis for each: lojban.org and ckule.lojban.org. In MediaWiki, there is a way to share the extensions folder and such to lessen the admininstrative task. If there are corresponding pages between the two, they can be linked to each other in the way Wikipedia links pages in other languages.

Any thoughts?

[1] This is partly an excuse to focus my time on helping CLL1.1; I'm not a good multitasker.

mu'o

[la gleki]

On Saturday, December 1, 2012 4:03:26 AM UTC+4, entot wrote:

It's not a question of if the default language is English or not. It's a question of whether we present a Lojban-only page to a newcomer. I think showing a Lojbanic interface and Lojban-only content to a newcomer is not friendly.

Well, one new suggestion on how the main page might look like.

http://www.wikipedia.org/

So we can offer a menu where any visitor can choose their default language.

Also LMW now automatically changes it's interface according to browser settings of anonymous visitors. I think we should find a way to make LMW change the content of pages accordingly.

If the primary language is Lojban, are you, doi la gleki. .e la .iesk., fine with importing all the pages from TWiki to LMW? Lots of them are in English.

As tsani said we would be forced to translate most pages  to Lojban. Many non-English speakers are interested in Lojban so it will also force other people  to translate the pages to their native languages.

I'm fine with importing all pages in English. We mustnot remove any helpful information no matter in what language it is written.

ni'o

I'm holding off any work I said or hinted I'd be doing (working on the community portal and migrating) until I get a clear picture of what the site organization is going to be [1]:

* Who is the target audience?

Anyone interested in Lojban, Sapir-Whorf, logic, philosophy, linguistics in general and anyone just interested in socialising with other people all over the world (in case if this person wants either help us in something or considers learning Lojban no matter what their reasons in learning Lojban are).

* What content will it have, in what language?

All pages  must have lojbanic version, even if it would be a short version of English "original". As for other languages we must try to translate the most important pages to other world languages.

As far as I understand, there are two interests at hand:

* Target audience: Lojban speakers

* Content: Anything in Lojban? / Translation projects, Lojbanic writings, Lojbanists index

* Target audience: Lojban learners

* Content: Learning materials in English and other languages around the world

If this is the case, I think it's not out of the question to maintain two separate wikis for each: lojban.org and ckule.lojban.org.

I think even the old wiki separates these things. It's just not polished. Anyway we could prefix titles of pages for beginners with "nintadni/" or something.

or (even better) use page categories.

 

In MediaWiki, there is a way to share the extensions folder and such to lessen the admininstrative task. If there are corresponding pages between the two, they can be linked to each other in the way Wikipedia links pages in other languages.

Any thoughts?

[1] This is partly an excuse to focus my time on helping CLL1.1; I'm not a good multitasker.

Are you working on CLL1.1???? i'ecai. I think in this case you should be exempted from any other activity in Lojbanistan cuz CLL1.1 is the primary goal ))).

mu'o

[iesk]

Le samedi 1 décembre 2012 01:03:26 UTC+1, entot a écrit :

It's not a question of if the default language is English or not. It's a question of whether we present a Lojban-only page to a newcomer. I think showing a Lojbanic interface and Lojban-only content to a newcomer is not friendly.

(I guess its 'friendlier' than piping interested people through English when it isn't necessary.)
 

If the primary language is Lojban, are you, doi la gleki. .e la .iesk., fine with importing all the pages from TWiki to LMW? Lots of them are in English.

Since I have so far not contributed anything useful to LMW, my opinion does not weigh much.

I repeat that my idea of the wiki was that there be no 'primary language' for content pages. Everybody would write pages in the language(s) of their preference. I don't think it likely that there will be systematic translations of all LMW pages in all LMW languages (whichever that may be). Most content will probably be in English anyway (TWiki imports included), who would translate all that stuff? So why not have a page in, say, French, link to relevant pages in, say, English, Lojban, …  I have been arguing *against* any primary language, because that would, to my understanding, mean that you have to write (or wait for somebody to write) a page about 'broda' in the primary language before you can add a page about 'broda' in the language that you want.

 

ni'o

I'm holding off any work I said or hinted I'd be doing (working on the community portal and migrating) until I get a clear picture of what the site organization is going to be [1]:

* Who is the target audience?

* What content will it have, in what language?

As far as I understand, there are two interests at hand:

* Target audience: Lojban speakers

* Content: Anything in Lojban? / Translation projects, Lojbanic writings, Lojbanists index

* Target audience: Lojban learners

* Content: Learning materials in English and other languages around the world

I naïvely thought of a home for all things Lojbanic. ;)
 

[la gleki]

On Saturday, December 1, 2012 1:18:15 PM UTC+4, iesk wrote:

Le samedi 1 décembre 2012 01:03:26 UTC+1, entot a écrit :

It's not a question of if the default language is English or not. It's a question of whether we present a Lojban-only page to a newcomer. I think showing a Lojbanic interface and Lojban-only content to a newcomer is not friendly.

(I guess its 'friendlier' than piping interested people through English when it isn't necessary.)
 

If the primary language is Lojban, are you, doi la gleki. .e la .iesk., fine with importing all the pages from TWiki to LMW? Lots of them are in English.

Since I have so far not contributed anything useful to LMW, my opinion does not weigh much.

I repeat that my idea of the wiki was that there be no 'primary language' for content pages. Everybody would write pages in the language(s) of their preference. I don't think it likely that there will be systematic translations of all LMW pages in all LMW languages (whichever that may be). Most content will probably be in English anyway (TWiki imports included), who would translate all that stuff? So why not have a page in, say, French, link to relevant pages in, say, English, Lojban, …  I have been arguing *against* any primary language, because that would, to my understanding, mean that you have to write (or wait for somebody to write) a page about 'broda' in the primary language before you can add a page about 'broda' in the language that you want.

Unfortunately I have no idea of a mechanism of creating a wiki without any primary language. And LMW is after all a linguistic project. The core of Lojbanistan is Lojban which is a language. Anyway LMW-contributors must know at least some basic lojban. This will be enough to create new pages in simple lojban first and then creating it's "translation" in another language e.g. English.

UPDATE:

I already noticed first attempts of spamming in LMW from anonymous users. Threrefore
ConfirmEdit extension installed to prevent spamming. ReCaptcha mode activated for new users. It makes us dependent on third-party ReCaptcha service, but it's the simplest solution.

[iesk]

Le samedi 1 décembre 2012 10:34:58 UTC+1, la gleki a écrit :

Unfortunately I have no idea of a mechanism of creating a wiki without any primary language.

That would be plain Mediawiki *without* translation extension, wouldn't it?

[vruxir]

Earlier today I was having a technical issue with translating -- basically, after editing and saving a "message" in the translation interface, a dialog box would pop up with a "tpt-unknown-page" error. However, now the problem has disappeared and translating works again, so I'm not sure what caused it.

Another problem, as I try to add a new page, is that I can't upload images (specifically, I'm trying to add standard Wikimedia message box images, such as the "!" information bubble and a pencil-and-paper icon). Upon clicking the "Upload" button at the bottom, I get:

Upload Warning: Could not create directory "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/7/7e".

Many people seem to think that it's a problem with folder write permissions. There is discussion here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Project:Support_desk/Trouble_uploading_after_installation

(The same type of error message came up for both .svg and .png files.)

mu'o

[la gleki]

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:10:34 AM UTC+4, vruxir wrote:

Earlier today I was having a technical issue with translating -- basically, after editing and saving a "message" in the translation interface, a dialog box would pop up with a "tpt-unknown-page" error. However, now the problem has disappeared and translating works again, so I'm not sure what caused it.

Another problem, as I try to add a new page, is that I can't upload images (specifically, I'm trying to add standard Wikimedia message box images, such as the "!" information bubble and a pencil-and-paper icon). Upon clicking the "Upload" button at the bottom, I get:

Upload Warning: Could not create directory "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/7/7e".

Many people seem to think that it's a problem with folder write permissions. There is discussion here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Project:Support_desk/Trouble_uploading_after_installation

The fact is that those directories have already been 777-ised. Earlier we could upload images. I really don't know what happened.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 2:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:10:34 AM UTC+4, vruxir wrote:

Earlier today I was having a technical issue with translating -- basically, after editing and saving a "message" in the translation interface, a dialog box would pop up with a "tpt-unknown-page" error. However, now the problem has disappeared and translating works again, so I'm not sure what caused it.

Another problem, as I try to add a new page, is that I can't upload images (specifically, I'm trying to add standard Wikimedia message box images, such as the "!" information bubble and a pencil-and-paper icon). Upon clicking the "Upload" button at the bottom, I get:

Upload Warning: Could not create directory "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/7/7e".

Many people seem to think that it's a problem with folder write permissions. There is discussion here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Project:Support_desk/Trouble_uploading_after_installation

The fact is that those directories have already been 777-ised. Earlier we could upload images. I really don't know what happened.

It's possible that some recent changed modified the permissions and they need to be +w again.
 

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[la gleki]

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:34:06 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 2:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:10:34 AM UTC+4, vruxir wrote:

Earlier today I was having a technical issue with translating -- basically, after editing and saving a "message" in the translation interface, a dialog box would pop up with a "tpt-unknown-page" error. However, now the problem has disappeared and translating works again, so I'm not sure what caused it.

Another problem, as I try to add a new page, is that I can't upload images (specifically, I'm trying to add standard Wikimedia message box images, such as the "!" information bubble and a pencil-and-paper icon). Upon clicking the "Upload" button at the bottom, I get:

Upload Warning: Could not create directory "mwstore://local-backend/local-public/7/7e".

Many people seem to think that it's a problem with folder write permissions. There is discussion here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Thread:Project:Support_desk/Trouble_uploading_after_installation

The fact is that those directories have already been 777-ised. Earlier we could upload images. I really don't know what happened.

It's possible that some recent changed modified the permissions and they need to be +w again.

sei mi ca'o denpa lo nu  la camgusmis cu spuda

[la gleki]

UPDATE:

File uploading now working again.

[Marc Laporte]

Sure I can help.

Can someone please add my username 'marclaporte' to the Admins group here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-adminusers.php ?

I can then solve some of the issues.

Best regards,

M ;-)

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[guskant]

Translation pages fail in saving.

I go translate a page

http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Special%3ATranslate&taction=translate&group=page-jbobau+selci%27a&language=ja&limit=100&task=view

and edit my translation, but fail in saving. A dialog popups and says "Saving failed. Please report this error." Please fix this problem.

[vruxir]

I noticed this too. I'm pretty sure it is because of the reCAPTCHA. I have been able to work around it by doing this:

Right-click on the link in the first column of the Translation Messages table -- for example, the link that looks like "Translations:jbobau selci'a/25/en" -- and open the link in a new tab. Then you can edit that section of the translation and save the changes (and it will show the required reCAPTCHA below the translation after you click "Save Page".)

I hope there is a way to fix that, because editing each translation section in a new tab slows things down. The only obvious fix I can think of is to disable reCAPTCHA on pages that begin with the prefix "Translations:"; hopefully that is possible.

mu'o mi'e .vruxir.

[guskant]

On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 6:54 AM, vruxir <kex...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I noticed this too. I'm pretty sure it is because of the reCAPTCHA. I have
> been able to work around it by doing this:
>
> Right-click on the link in the first column of the Translation Messages
> table -- for example, the link that looks like "Translations:jbobau
> selci'a/25/en" -- and open the link in a new tab. Then you can edit that
> section of the translation and save the changes (and it will show the
> required reCAPTCHA below the translation after you click "Save Page".)
>

I got it, thanks!

> I hope there is a way to fix that, because editing each translation section
> in a new tab slows things down. The only obvious fix I can think of is to
> disable reCAPTCHA on pages that begin with the prefix "Translations:";
> hopefully that is possible.
>
> mu'o mi'e .vruxir.
>
>
> On Thursday, December 6, 2012 4:26:22 PM UTC-5, guskant wrote:
>>
>> Translation pages fail in saving.
>>
>> I go translate a page
>>
>> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Special%3ATranslate&taction=translate&group=page-jbobau+selci%27a&language=ja&limit=100&task=view
>> and edit my translation, but fail in saving. A dialog popups and says
>> "Saving failed. Please report this error." Please fix this problem.
>

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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/QY6eedzR05QJ.

[la gleki]

I changed the value of $wgCaptchaTriggers['edit'] to false.

The current values are

$wgCaptchaTriggers['edit']          = false; 

$wgCaptchaTriggers['create']        = true; 

$wgCaptchaTriggers['addurl']        = false; 

$wgCaptchaTriggers['createaccount'] = true;

$wgCaptchaTriggers['badlogin']      = true;

What needs to be changed or added?