Two new gismu, "stomach" and "back of body". And a proposal for an updated method of generating gismu.

[la gleki]

Robin wanted those two new gismu and so I started preparing their sounding.

At first I asked myself "Are those frequencies taken from Atlas of the world true or correct? Are there any flaws in the method of generating gismu from 6 languages?"

So here is my new method.

1.At first I opened this wikipedia article. Unfortunately Wikipedia just removed the data that we need in it's newer revisions of the page.

2.Write out the number of native (I'll call them L1) speakers of first most common languages. Determine the number of L2 speakers as L2=(total number of speakers - L1 speakers).

3. In one special case we have L3 speakers.

4. Determine the corrected frequency as =L1+L2 / 2 + L3 / 3

5. Leave first 12 languages (I'll tell you later why 12)

5. Convert them to fractions so that the sum=1.

6.Therefore we get (3-letter ISO-codes of languages in the 1st column)

	l1	l2	l3	total	cor.freq.	fraction
cmn	845	180		1025	935	0.246117
eng	375	375	750		812.5	0.213872
spa	329	61		390	359.5	0.09463
ara	232	220		452	342	0.090024
hin	240	165		405	322.5	0.084891
ben	181	69		250	215.5	0.056725
rus	144	106		250	197	0.051856
por	178	15		193	185.5	0.048829
jap	122	1		123	122.5	0.032245
pun	109	0		109	109	0.028692
deu	90	28		118	104	0.027376
fra	68	52		120	94	0.024743
jav	85	0		85	85
wu	77	0		77	77
mar	75	3			76.5
tel	70	5		75	72.5
vie	69	0		69	69
						1

7.Now some general stuff. I stopped at French cuz it's a Romance language similar to Poruguese and Spanish so it might shift the frequencies of phonemes a bit.

8.Punjabi and Bengali are no longer considered as variations of Hindi.

9.Now let's find etymologies for our gismu.

I can recommend the following links (warning! unsorted)

for transliterating Arabic script robsmart.co.uk » Transliteration again … now complete

 punjabi dic stomach | Meaning of stomach | Punjabi Dictionary | iJunoon

 punjabi dic Punjabi(Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi) to English Dictionary:: ACTDPL Punjabi University, Patiala

 no comments Google Translate

 Hindi stomach meaning in Hindi and English - Shabdkosh.com | शब्दकोश.कॉम

Hindi English to Hindi Dictionary and Translation

Hindi Hindi English Dictionary Online

 Bengali stomach meaning in Bengali and English - Shabdkosh.com | অভিধান.कॉम

 Bengali stomach - A Bengali-English dictionary

intend translation Portuguese | English-Portuguese dictionary | Reverso Collins

 Japanese Find words - Denshi Jisho

German am going to : Dictionary / Wörterbuch (BEOLINGUS, TU Chemnitz)

audio samples forvo.com

10.Some dictionaries contain audio samples.

11.Notice that Punjabi, Bengali and Hindi (together with Urdu) are quite similar. You usually should get the same sounding.

12. So prepare the sounding using standard methods of it's adapting to lojban phonology as described in the CLL.

13.Now let's use scoreGismu perl app.

For "stomach" we get

cmn	vei	0.253388
eng	beli	0.22019
spa	bientre	0.097425
ara	muada	0.092683
hin	pet	0.087398
ben	pet	0.058401
rus	jeludyk	0.053388
por	bariga	0.050271
jap	xara	0.033198
pun	pet	0.028692
deu	magen	0.028184
fra	vontr	0.025474

With first 4 languages it outputs 

vreli velti venli velbi	0.691286 (rating)
With all 12 languages it  outputs
vetli	0.535 (rating)

I'd choose {vetli} as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, Indian "pet" and Romance "ventr-"

For "back of human body" we get

cmn	beiji	0.253388
eng	bak	0.22019
spa	espalda	0.097425
ara	vyxra	0.092683
hin	pic	0.087398
ben	pic	0.058401
rus	spin	0.053388
por	kostas	0.050271
jap	se	0.033198
pun	pic	0.028692
deu	riuk	0.028184
fra	dos	0.025474

Top score is
bekpi bajdi	0.50684	4 langs
bekpi	0.4697	12 langs

I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of Chinese bei, English back, Indian pic and Russian sPIna.

Robin approved them several hours ago in chat but I'm free to suggestions.

Notes.

Still 6 languages is enough. 4 languages are not enough. More than 12 languages is a useless waste of time (but If you can collect translations please do).

[Matt Arnold]

Would the "stomach" word be used for "ventral surfaces" or "digestive organ"?

-Eppcott

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[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday 21 August 2012 11:07:36 la gleki wrote:
> For "stomach" we get
> cmn vei 0.253388 eng beli 0.22019 spa bientre 0.097425 ara muada
> 0.092683 hin pet 0.087398 ben pet 0.058401 rus jeludyk 0.053388 por
> bariga 0.050271 jap xara 0.033198 pun pet 0.028692 deu magen 0.028184
> fra vontr 0.025474
> With first 4 languages it outputs

> *vreli velti venli velbi* 0.691286 (rating) With all 12 languages it
> outputs *vetli* 0.535

> (rating)
>
>
> I'd choose {vetli} as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, Indian
> "pet" and Romance "ventr-"

I would use neither "belly" nor "vientre", as they mean "betfu" which we
already have. The Spanish for "stomach" is "estómago". "slamycanti" was
proposed some years ago.

> For "back of human body" we get
> cmn beiji 0.253388 eng bak 0.22019 spa espalda 0.097425 ara vyxra
> 0.092683 hin pic 0.087398 ben pic 0.058401 rus spin 0.053388 por kostas
> 0.050271 jap se 0.033198 pun pic 0.028692 deu riuk 0.028184 fra dos
> 0.025474
> Top score is bekpi bajdi 0.50684 4 langs bekpi 0.4697 12 langs
> I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of Chinese bei, English back, Indian
> pic and Russian sPIna.

I agree that we need a word to distinguish back, the dorsal side of an animal,
from back, the area behind something. They are the same side for a human, but
not for most vertebrates. This word sounds good. Also, I think we need a word
for the ventral side of an animal.

Pedantically, the upper back is "espalda" (the French cognate
means "shoulder", which is also the first sense in Velázquez), the lower
is "lomo", and the whole thing is "dorso", but I've heard people call the
whole back "espalda" and not know the word "dorso". Also the "s" is silent in
French "dos".

Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 7:33:46 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Tuesday 21 August 2012 11:07:36 la gleki wrote:
> For "stomach" we get
>   cmn vei 0.253388  eng beli 0.22019  spa bientre 0.097425  ara muada
> 0.092683  hin pet 0.087398  ben pet 0.058401  rus jeludyk 0.053388  por
> bariga 0.050271  jap xara 0.033198  pun pet 0.028692  deu magen 0.028184
> fra vontr 0.025474
> With first 4 languages it outputs
>   *vreli velti venli velbi* 0.691286 (rating)  With all 12 languages it
>  outputs  *vetli* 0.535
> (rating)
>
>
> I'd choose {vetli} as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, Indian
> "pet" and Romance "ventr-"

I would use neither "belly" nor "vientre", as they mean "betfu" which we
already have. The Spanish for "stomach" is "estómago". "slamycanti" was
proposed some years ago.

Robin asked me to add them to jvs but I see now he was too hasty.

[iesk]

coi la gleki

Just commenting on one point, the German source words.

pe'i If German "Magen" and "Rücken" were to be considered, they should be transcribed "magyn" and "rikyn", respectively. IPA is, more or less, ['maːgən]/[maːgn̩] and ['ʁʏkən]/[ʁʏkn̩]. "ü" is customarily transcribed as "ю" in, eg, Russian, which would be lojbanised as "iu", but it's a simple front vowel in German, the nearest Lojban equivalent of which is probably "i". Also, although "Rücken" is historically "rück" + "en" (I guess), the "en" in "Rücken" is pe'i not a productive suffix, so probably it shouldn't be removed before Lojbanisation. I'm not sure about that last point, though.

Also, I have of course not the slightest idea if this changes the outcome of your gismu generation.

-iesk

[Sebastian]

coi,

I like the method of generating gismu, but if we should add more gismu I think there may be several other basic concepts with higher priority.

For example "bicycle", for which I don't find "relxilma'e" appropriate since bicycles may have more or less than two wheels. A gismu for bicycle (with short rafsi) would also be useful for making words for motorcycle, moped etc.

A gismu for gender (with a standard place) would also be very useful, especially for a sociologist as myself. And that would end the endless discussions here about this vague, but universal concept.

And if we want a gismu for stomach, so why don't we add gismu for kidney (and perhaps more organs) as well? Why just stomach?

And "back" already has two different lujvo: "cuyti'e" for upper back respectively befti'e for lower back. If we would like to refer to the whole back, so why don't we just use "cutyjoibefti'e" or "xadyti'e". I can't see the need for gismu for that.

mu'omi'e sebastian

Skickat från min iPhone

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[la gleki]

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 9:00:33 PM UTC+4, iesk wrote:

coi la gleki

Just commenting on one point, the German source words.

pe'i If German "Magen" and "Rücken" were to be considered, they should be transcribed "magyn" and "rikyn", respectively. IPA is, more or less, ['maːgən]/[maːgn̩] and ['ʁʏkən]/[ʁʏkn̩]. "ü" is customarily transcribed as "ю" in, eg, Russian, which would be lojbanised as "iu", but it's a simple front vowel in German, the nearest Lojban equivalent of which is probably "i". Also, although "Rücken" is historically "rück" + "en" (I guess), the "en" in "Rücken" is pe'i not a productive suffix, so probably it shouldn't be removed before Lojbanisation. I'm not sure about that last point, though.

Unfortunately, you are too late. I'm against a gismu for "stomach" now. I was just forced to add words to jvs. I'll ask Robin to remove it. 

[iesk]

Never mind. I believe the (historical) advantages of the gismu creation algorithm, which is in principle a holdover from earliest Loglan, as I gather, lie more one the side of quelling (some of the) endless discussions about vocabulary than in anything else. Oh, it's probably a nice propaganda device, too.

I think it is not of particular importance how the gismu look/sound. I can live with obvious oddities such as {ckafi} or {ketco}.

Also I didn't follow the discussion that resulted in the creation of these two new (unofficial that is, right?) gismu, so I still can't comment on their necessity.

I only cringed a bit when I saw my beloved German mistreated so recklessly. ;) By the way, the French is "vantr", not "vontr". :p

-iesk

[la gleki]

There was no discussion. It all looked like a strong suggestion from lojbo nolraitru which I used as a test for my the updated method of generating gismu.

Sorry for my mistakes in etymology. I tried to be careful with Indian languages but was didnt paid enough attention to German and French. Next time I'll just post my suggestions to ralju mriste first.

 

-iesk

[Matt Arnold]

Sebastian,

How is it possible for a bicycle to have a number of wheels other than two, and still be a bicycle? It has the prefix "bi".  If it has one wheel, it's a unicycle. If it has three wheels, it's a tricycle. 

I am completely in favor of a Lojban word for a human-powered wheeled vehicle regardless of the number of wheels, so consider this a friendly amendment to your proposal. 

-Eppcott

[la gleki]

We need a gismu for sports if we have a gismu for "gymnast".

[Robin Lee Powell]

Digestive organ; {cutne} and {betfu} cover the other more or less, I
think?

Although working on a bunch of words for dorsal, ventral, etc, would
be pretty cool.

-Robin

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 11:17:57AM -0400, Matt Arnold wrote:
> Would the "stomach" word be used for "ventral surfaces" or
> "digestive organ"?
>
> -Eppcott
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 11:07 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Robin wanted those two new gismu and so I started preparing their sounding.
> >
> > At first I asked myself "Are those frequencies taken from Atlas of the
> > world true or correct? Are there any flaws in the method of generating
> > gismu from 6 languages?"
> >
> > So here is my new method.
> >

> > 1.At first I opened this wikipedia article<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers&oldid=508449846>.

> > … now complete<http://robsmart.co.uk/2007/02/02/transliteration-again-now-complete/> punjabi
> > dic stomach | Meaning of stomach | Punjabi Dictionary | iJunoon<http://www.ijunoon.com/punjabi/dictionary.aspx?word=stomach> punjabi

> > dic Punjabi(Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi) to English Dictionary:: ACTDPL Punjabi

> > University, Patiala <http://dic.learnpunjabi.org/default.aspx> no
> > comments Google Translate<http://translate.google.com/?source=osdd#auto/hi/she%20intends%2C%0Athey%20intend.>
> > Hindi stomach meaning in Hindi and English - Shabdkosh.com | शब्दकोश.कॉम<http://www.shabdkosh.com/translate/stomach/stomach_meaning_in_Hindi_English>
> > Hindi English to Hindi Dictionary and Translation<http://dict.hinkhoj.com/english2hindi.php>
> > Hindi Hindi English Dictionary Online<http://s371741603.online.de/hindi-english/index.php?input=stomach&trans=Translate&direction=AU>

> > Bengali stomach meaning in Bengali and English - Shabdkosh.com |

> > অভিধান.कॉम<http://www.shabdkosh.com/bn/translate/stomach/stomach_meaning_in_Bengali_English>
> > Bengali stomach - A Bengali-English dictionary<http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadict.pl?query=stomach&table=biswas-bengali>intend
> > translation Portuguese | English-Portuguese dictionary | Reverso Collins<http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-portuguese/>
> > Japanese Find words - Denshi Jisho<http://jisho.org/words?jap=&eng=stomach&dict=edict&romaji=on>
> > German am going to : Dictionary / Wörterbuch (BEOLINGUS, TU Chemnitz)<http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?lang=en&service=deen&opterrors=0&optpro=0&query=am+going+to&iservice=&comment=&email=>

> > audio samples forvo.com
> >
> >
> > 10.Some dictionaries contain audio samples.
> > 11.Notice that Punjabi, Bengali and Hindi (together with Urdu) are quite
> > similar. You usually should get the same sounding.
> > 12. So prepare the sounding using standard methods of it's adapting to
> > lojban phonology as described in the CLL.
> > 13.Now let's use scoreGismu perl app.
> >
> > For "stomach" we get
> > cmn vei 0.253388 eng beli 0.22019 spa bientre 0.097425 ara muada
> > 0.092683 hin pet 0.087398 ben pet 0.058401 rus jeludyk 0.053388 por
> > bariga 0.050271 jap xara 0.033198 pun pet 0.028692 deu magen 0.028184
> > fra vontr 0.025474
> > With first 4 languages it outputs

> > *vreli velti venli velbi* 0.691286 (rating) With all 12 languages it
> > outputs *vetli* 0.535

> > (rating)
> >
> >
> > I'd choose {vetli} as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, Indian
> > "pet" and Romance "ventr-"
> >
> >
> > For "back of human body" we get
> > cmn beiji 0.253388 eng bak 0.22019 spa espalda 0.097425 ara vyxra
> > 0.092683 hin pic 0.087398 ben pic 0.058401 rus spin 0.053388 por
> > kostas 0.050271 jap se 0.033198 pun pic 0.028692 deu riuk 0.028184 fra
> > dos 0.025474
> > Top score is bekpi bajdi 0.50684 4 langs bekpi 0.4697 12 langs
> > I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of Chinese bei, English back, Indian
> > pic and Russian sPIna.
> >
> > Robin approved them several hours ago in chat but I'm free to suggestions.
> >

> > *Notes.*

> > Still 6 languages is enough. 4 languages are not enough. More than 12
> > languages is a useless waste of time (but If you can collect translations
> > please do).
> >
> > --
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[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 19:39:27 Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> Digestive organ; {cutne} and {betfu} cover the other more or less, I
> think?

I don't think the digestive organ warrants a gismu; {slamycanti} or a fu'ivla
would be fine. The cutne is anterior to the betfu; both have a ventral surface.

> Although working on a bunch of words for dorsal, ventral, etc, would
> be pretty cool.

I think those do warrant gismu.

Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

[la gleki]

http://www.portuguesedictionary.net/index.php?q=return 

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 07:12:54AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 19:39:27 Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > Digestive organ; {cutne} and {betfu} cover the other more or
> > less, I think?
>
> I don't think the digestive organ warrants a gismu; {slamycanti}
> or a fu'ivla would be fine.

*blink*

I didn't know about {canti}. -___-

I like {slamycanti}. Someone put it in jbovlaste. :)

> The cutne is anterior to the betfu; both have a ventral surface.

Can you point met to an explanation of those words, and words like
them, that makes that make sense? Because I don't get it.

-Robin

[Arnt Richard Johansen]

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 10:10:41PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 07:12:54AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
> > The cutne is anterior to the betfu; both have a ventral surface.
>
> Can you point met to an explanation of those words, and words like
> them, that makes that make sense? Because I don't get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_location#Vertebrate_directional_terms is a bit geeky, but hopefully it helps.


--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
On the Semantic Web, it's too hard to prove you're not a dog. --Bill de h�ra

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 09:40:29AM +0200, Arnt Richard Johansen
wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 10:10:41PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 07:12:54AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> >
> > > The cutne is anterior to the betfu; both have a ventral
> > > surface.
> >
> > Can you point met to an explanation of those words, and words
> > like them, that makes that make sense? Because I don't get it.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_location#Vertebrate_directional_terms
> is a bit geeky, but hopefully it helps.

It does. Thanks!

[la gleki]

So do we need  gismu for ventral side?

If so I completely lost.

Peeps, what are the terms fro that in the languages that you speak?

I can't find such a word in English ("ventral side of body" doesn't count).

.e'u if English and other languages lack this word we shoudl remove them from the algorithm and retain the languages that have this concept in a short rootword.

On the Semantic Web, it's too hard to prove you're not a dog. --Bill de h�ra

[Jonathan Jones]

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:54 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

So do we need  gismu for ventral side?

If so I completely lost.

Peeps, what are the terms fro that in the languages that you speak?

I can't find such a word in English ("ventral side of body" doesn't count).

The ventral side is the opposite of the back side: the stomache, chest. In fact, ventral comes from the Latin word for "belly".
 

.e'u if English and other languages lack this word we shoudl remove them from the algorithm and retain the languages that have this concept in a short rootword.

On Monday, September 24, 2012 11:40:40 AM UTC+4, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 10:10:41PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 07:12:54AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
> > The cutne is anterior to the betfu; both have a ventral surface.
>
> Can you point met to an explanation of those words, and words like
> them, that makes that make sense?  Because I don't get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_terms_of_location#Vertebrate_directional_terms is a bit geeky, but hopefully it helps.


--
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[la gleki]

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 10:21:51 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 9:54 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

So do we need  gismu for ventral side?

If so I completely lost.

Peeps, what are the terms fro that in the languages that you speak?

I can't find such a word in English ("ventral side of body" doesn't count).

The ventral side is the opposite of the back side: the stomache, chest. In fact, ventral comes from the Latin word for "belly".

But we already have {betfu} for that with a different meaning, arent we?

[Jacob Errington]

When it comes to discussing the front of the body, we have {flira} for the face, {cutne} for the chest, and {betfu} for the abdomen. Now, when it comes to discussing the back, there're the (poorly formed) lujvo {cutyti'e} and {befti'e}, which according to the gismu deep stucture, simply mean "x1 is behind the chest of x2" and "x1 is behind the abdomen of x2". With that in mind, would "back of head" be {firti'e} ? Can we coin joi-based lujvo to mean frontal side and dorsal side? They could be {cutyjolbe'u} and {cutyti'ekepjolkembefti'e} but that's just getting silly.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/HXT1UOKdHjYJ.

[la gleki]

On Friday, November 23, 2012 3:36:59 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

When it comes to discussing the front of the body, we have {flira} for the face, {cutne} for the chest, and {betfu} for the abdomen. Now, when it comes to discussing the back, there're the (poorly formed) lujvo {cutyti'e} and {befti'e}, which according to the gismu deep stucture, simply mean "x1 is behind the chest of x2" and "x1 is behind the abdomen of x2". With that in mind, would "back of head" be {firti'e} ? Can we coin joi-based lujvo to mean frontal side and dorsal side? They could be {cutyjolbe'u} and {cutyti'ekepjolkembefti'e} but that's just getting silly.

My guess is that "ventral side" and "dorsal side" has more rights to be called prims than even "face". I opened the link provided by Arnt Richard Johansen and I doubt that all organisms look like humans.

[Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG]

Jacob Errington wrote:
> When it comes to discussing the front of the body, we have {flira} for
> the face, {cutne} for the chest, and {betfu} for the abdomen. Now, when
> it comes to discussing the back, there're the (poorly formed) lujvo
> {cutyti'e} and {befti'e}, which according to the gismu deep stucture,
> simply mean "x1 is behind the chest of x2" and "x1 is behind the abdomen
> of x2". With that in mind, would "back of head" be {firti'e} ? Can we
> coin joi-based lujvo to mean frontal side and dorsal side? They could be
> {cutyjolbe'u} and {cutyti'ekepjolkembefti'e} but that's just getting silly.

When we created the gismu, we simply intended trixe for the
back/posterior/dorsal and crane for the front/anterior/ventral,
presuming that people would make lujvo if more specificity was needed
(e.g. to distinguish dorsal and posterior in a fish, which has the
spinal axis in a different direction from humans).

We did not distinguish between the back direction (behind the body, not
part of the body) and the back part of the body - that was also to be
done with lujvo. There were a variety of ideas, on how to do this so we
decided not to decide. But we didn't think the distinction warranted
two different gismu, because in fact we didn't find such a distinction
was very clear in the natlangs we were looking at.

I'm not recommending specific lujvo now, because I suspect that
different solutions would apply to different problems. A chart of terms
on wikipedia that was mentioned applies to vertebrates, but what about
other animal (and plant and whatever) forms?

I'd be inclined to use one or more fu'ivla before creating a new gismu.
Adding to the gismu set when it was avoidable was offensive to a large
segment of Lojban supporters back when we were finalizing the list, and
we stopped considering changes when the number of proposals to eliminate
gismu exceeded the number of new additions.

back of head would presumable by sedyti'u to correspond to your
{cutyti'e} and {befti'e}. While humans have a flira on the sedycra, one
can certainly imagine having a separate flira on the sedyti'u.

lojbab
--
Bob LeChevalier loj...@lojban.org www.lojban.org
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.

[la gleki]

On Friday, November 23, 2012 9:44:03 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:

Jacob Errington wrote:
> When it comes to discussing the front of the body, we have {flira} for
> the face, {cutne} for the chest, and {betfu} for the abdomen. Now, when
> it comes to discussing the back, there're the (poorly formed) lujvo
> {cutyti'e} and {befti'e}, which according to the gismu deep stucture,
> simply mean "x1 is behind the chest of x2" and "x1 is behind the abdomen
> of x2". With that in mind, would "back of head" be {firti'e} ? Can we
> coin joi-based lujvo to mean frontal side and dorsal side? They could be
> {cutyjolbe'u} and {cutyti'ekepjolkembefti'e} but that's just getting silly.

When we created the gismu, we simply intended trixe for the
back/posterior/dorsal and crane for the front/anterior/ventral,
presuming that people would make lujvo if more specificity was needed
(e.g. to distinguish dorsal and posterior in a fish, which has the
spinal axis in a different direction from humans).

We did not distinguish between the back direction (behind the body, not
part of the body) and the back part of the body - that was also to be
done with lujvo.  There were a variety of ideas, on how to do this so we
decided not to decide.  But we didn't think the distinction warranted
two different gismu, because in fact we didn't find such a distinction
was very clear in the natlangs we were looking at.

It's true that natlangs lack such distinction.  Even if fu'ivla what would be the etymology of the word required?

As for {bekpi} vs. {trixe} look at the picture of the fish from Wikipedia that ARJ provided.

What is {trixe} of that fish? Isn't it just .... tail?

however, dorsal part is obviously {bekpi}. For now we can use {tolbekpi} for ventral side until we decide what to do with a non-lujvo "ventral side".

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 7:07:36 PM UTC+4, la gleki wrote:

Mandarin phonology with lojbanic equivalents for gismu/fu'ivla builders. 

pinyin	transcription, a bit lojbanized	possible realisations for jbovla
m	m	m
b	(p+b)/2	b
p	ph	p
f	f	f
n	n	n
d	(d+t)/2	d
t	th	t
z	(ts + dz)/2	dz, z
c	tsh	ts, s
s	s	s
zh	(tc + dj)/2	dj, j
ch	tch	tc, c
sh	c	c
j	(tci + dji)/2	dji, dj, ji, j
q	tchi	tci, tc, ci, c
x	ci	ci, c
g	(g+k)/2	g
k	kh	k
h	x	x
l	l	l
r	j, r	j, r
w	w	u,v
y	i	i

I should note that those who created gismu were actually right when transliterating Mandarin [z] as {zy.}

Aspirated consonants in Mandarin should correspond to voiceless consonants.

Non-aspirated consonants in Mandarin should correspond to voiced consonants.

Don't forget that [ts] etc. actually work like one sound so they can't be perceived by the gismu building process as

[t] (any number of phonemes) [s].

They must go together into the sounding of the gismu being built.