New logo; a work in progress

[M.Nael]

Someone had once criticized the Lojban logo;

Just take a look...

It's an initial draft; just to gather opinion.

[vitci'i]

It's too complicated. A logo needs to be visually very simple.

I do like the monochrome color scheme; a good logo should be
recognizable in silhouette.

[Matt Arnold]

This is an illustration, not a logo. There is a difference between an
illlustration, a logo, a flag, a logotype, and a mascot. The Disney
logotype is the name in Walt Disney's distinctive handwriting. The
Disney logo is three circles. It could almost be considered a new
punctuation mark. The Disney mascot is Mickey Mouse himself, usually
as either a costume or an illustration.

Very few successful logos are illustrations. (Oddly, many outdoorsman
supply stores are exceptions to this rule, with detailed illustrations
of a fish or duck.)

Consider the various logos Doubletree Hotel has had. Some are so
simplistic they could count as a newly-invented punctuation mark (an
ideal quality in a logo, for some purposes). When they draw one or
more trees, they use fine-grained complexity, but the eye does not
have to pick out any detail. It just gives a gestalt impression of an
object we are all trained to recognize in a flash. The logotype, when
included with the logo as one piece, is large enough to take
prominence. The same could be said of the Fruit of the Loom logo.
These are the exceptions that prove the rule.

A quick impression (such as a logo) must not carry too many concepts
that need to be interpreted.

-Matt

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[Remo Dentato]

I'm one of those who don't like the current lojban logo, so I very
welcome new ideas!

Your proposal, however, seems too complex and would need too much
interpretation.

I can't remember anyone else exploring the triangle as basic shape for
a lojban logo, so maybe there's room in that direction to explore
further.

I'm a supporter of the "bridi man" concept, but the more ideas we can
develop, the better positioned we'll be for when we'll have the next
global discussion on changing the jbolanci.

remod

[M. Nael]

As I said, it's a work in progress that needs opinions. So, here's the first question:

I symbolized logic using the 'E=mc^2' equation and a short sequence of prime numbers. But that doesn't seem to work. Like symbolizing language by the shape of some talking people, how do you symbolize logic in a culturally neutral way? And how do you symbolize the offspring; the Lojban language itself?

[Matt Arnold]

Most concepts which need a logo are too complex to express through a
single symbol. Typically the goal is not to express the concept, but
rather stand in for it.

You can invent a meaningless glyph, and decide it now means that
concept. Example: biohazard trefoil.

Or, take an easily recognizable object and decide it now means that
concept. Example: World Wildlife Foundations panda logo.

What you don't want to do is include difficult-to-recognize objects,
or a scene with many details. Example: a scaly anteater operating a
welder.

-Matt

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[John E Clifford]

E=mc^2 has naught to do with Logic, of course, nor does the sequence of prime numbers (well, a little), so that point got lost.  The earliest Lojban logo used intersecting circles (from Venn diagrams) and a doubled headed arrow (from one standard presentation of propositional calculus).  But, of course, those are known only to people who have some acquaintance (however slight) to modern logic (since 1858 or so). Nothing universal springs to mind, since Logic, in this sense, at least, is an almost completely Euro-American phenomenon.  There is a markedly different tradition in India (which might be symbolized with something picturing smoke on a mountain revealing fire).  The early (and quickly quelled) Chinese tradition doesn't lend itself easily to depiction (how do you draw a white horse not being a horse -- nor white?).  The Islamic tradition transmitted and tidied up the Greek version to the West, which had received only a very dubious recension directly.  So, as I said, this is a Western tradition and maybe we just have to face that an use Western logos -- not that I can think of one that really works for non-logicians.

---

From: M. Nael <muhamm...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 19, 2011 3:02:25 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] New logo; a work in progress

As I said, it's a work in progress that needs opinions. So, here's the first question:

I symbolized logic using the 'E=mc^2' equation and a short sequence of prime numbers. But that doesn't seem to work. Like symbolizing language by the shape of some talking people, how do you symbolize logic in a culturally neutral way? And how do you symbolize the offspring; the Lojban language itself?

--

[Jonathan Jones]

Personally, I like the bridi man as the logo, and the old double-circle thing as the flag. I don't think we need a new one of either.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Luke Bergen]

Hmm.  Just some rough thoughts.  For representing "logic" the most basic/fundamental concept is the law of identity pe'i.  So what about something like:
X=X
Or some such. Maybe some symbol other than "X" if a different symbol would look better?

[John E. Clifford]

Identity is in Logic, but it is part of the intrusion of mathematics, which dominated the developments from mid 19th to mid 20th centuries.  So it is not particularly logic.  Since 1965 or so the intrusions have come more from Linguistics, but there is no good way to show that either, and it wouldn't be appropriate, sine what is in Lojban was already in place before then.

Sent from my iPad

[Pierre Abbat]

On Saturday 19 November 2011 16:02:25 M. Nael wrote:
> I symbolized logic using the 'E=mc^2' equation and a short sequence of
> prime numbers.

1 is not prime, it's a unit. Seeing the sequence 1,2,3,5, I expected it to
continue 8,13, and was puzzled by the 11.

Pierre
--
The Black Garden on the Mountain is not on the Black Mountain.

[Sebastian Fröjd]

I don't like the current logo either, and I really think it would be a good idea to create a new one.
To create a logo is a difficult task however, and in my opinion I think we need professional help from an advertising agency or the like, to do it properly (so we don't make a lot of effort now and then regret it after a year or so). Professionals in this field have the experience and competence to value which logo sticks out most and makes a professional impression of the lojban project. If we just say to the agency which associations of the logo we're looking for, then they could suggest an actual design. The problem is probably that they don't do it for free (start a fund-raising?).
Venn's diagram isn't such a bad idea I think, but it looks really dull in our logo right now, so maybe it works with a more artistic approach?

mu'o mi'e jongasib

2011/11/20 Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu>

[david demartin]

the bridi man is awesome

2011/11/19 Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com>

[M. Nael]

Alright people, this is half news...

I have a new brilliant idea, no joking this time and really professional...

Give me seven days, max; I've got school exams...

Regards,

›› MN

[Seth]

I have always like the logo, and really like the bridi man flag. give us some idea of your idea though, and maybe we can all come up with some different takes on it

seryf

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Nael <muhamm...@gmail.com>
To: lojban <loj...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 20, 2011 8:17 am
Subject: Re: [lojban] New logo; a work in progress

[vitci'i]

On 11/20/2011 05:06 PM, Seth wrote:
> I have always like the logo, and really like the bridi man flag. give
> us some idea of your idea though, and maybe we can all come up with
> some different takes on it

As long as we're throwing ideas at the wall, here's a thing I did.

[Mark E. Shoulson]

Why are we, though? I don't mind seeing ideas, they're interesting and
all, but this is... well, not the first time someone has up and said
"we'd better redesign the logo!" Are the current logos so horrendous
that we have to keep redoing them? (Maybe a dedicated page on the wiki
for "other upcoming logo suggestions"?) Just wondering why this is such
a perennial topic, and why it is considered something we are still
tinkering with.

~mark

[vitci'i]

On 11/20/2011 06:53 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> Are the current logos so horrendous that we have to keep redoing
> them?

Well... yes.

The only lasting solution, I think, would be to get a professional
designer to make a logo.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 6:25 PM, vitci'i <celestial...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 11/20/2011 06:53 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> Are the current logos so horrendous that we have to keep redoing
> them?

Well... yes.

I disagree.
 

The only lasting solution, I think, would be to get a professional
designer to make a logo.

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[vitci'i]

On 11/20/2011 07:40 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 6:25 PM, vitci'i <celestial...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2011 06:53 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
>>> Are the current logos so horrendous that we have to keep redoing
>>> them?
>>
>> Well... yes.
>
> I disagree.

To clarify my opinion: they're better than to'e good, but no better than
no'e good. I think it would be fair to characterize them as na'e good.

[John E Clifford]

It's an endemic disease among epigones, slightly less severe than the urge to
design a new alphabet for the language or to traslate some virtually
untranslatable work form its English translation. Chill! Each one fades away,
usually before the next comes along.

----- Original Message ----
From: Mark E. Shoulson <ma...@kli.org>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 20, 2011 6:53:12 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] New logo; a work in progress

~mark

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

[la klaku]

On 21 Nov., 04:27, John E Clifford <kali9pu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It's an endemic disease among epigones, slightly less severe than the urge to
> design a new alphabet for the language or to traslate some virtually
> untranslatable work form its English translation.  Chill! Each one fades away,
> usually before the next comes along.

That was horribly said, and it being true doesn't help at all.
The Lojban flag/logo is completely unnecessary. We have no army or
illiterate people.
The symbols "la .lojban." already conveys all that needs to be
conveyed,

That being said, the current flag makes me think it was designed by
colorblind people. But why make a better?

[tijlan]

The current logo may not be optimally good, but it seems to me simple
and unique enough for people to remember what it stands for. I
wouldn't call it horrendous. A killer logo can wait until we would
have dealt with more important issues of the language and community
itself.

I would suggest to avoid any illustration of "a man and a woman
talking together in suits". That isn't what Lojban is about.
Conventional alphabets & numerals don't seem appropriate either.
Should any letters be used, we would have to be extra careful about
its typography. And numbers, if any, need not be represented as
numerals; they could be embodied as geometrical elements of the logo.

You also might want to avoid a pyramidal shape to keep off unnecessary
suspicions from conspiracy folks. ;-)

mu'o

[Sid]

I'm fine with the current "double circle" logo -- all I would do to
improve it is to make the arrows into bars, Flag of England-esque.

[tijlan]

On 21 November 2011 10:03, Sid <cntra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm fine with the current "double circle" logo -- all I would do to
> improve it is to make the arrows into bars, Flag of England-esque.

The bars in England's flag are St. George's Cross. It's a Christian
symbol. The current logo already has an element with a Christian
parallel: the Vesica piscis, the intersection of the two circles. A
piscis + a cross would be a potentially confusing symbol.

mu'o

[tijlan]

On 21 November 2011 09:56, la klaku <jakobny...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21 Nov., 04:27, John E Clifford <kali9pu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> It's an endemic disease among epigones, slightly less severe than the urge to
>> design a new alphabet for the language or to traslate some virtually
>> untranslatable work form its English translation.  Chill! Each one fades away,
>> usually before the next comes along.
>
> That was horribly said, and it being true doesn't help at all.
> The Lojban flag/logo is completely unnecessary. We have no army or
> illiterate people.
> The symbols "la .lojban." already conveys all that needs to be
> conveyed,

The language itself needs no logo, but an abstract symbol can help
increase people's awareness of the project. I tend to take more time
remembering what a page with no favicon in my bookmark was about than
those with one. I tend to more skip or fail to notice an item when I
look for an add-on on the Firefox website. An iPhone app with a logo
is more appealing than those without.

I generally dislike the excessive and pretentious advertisements in
our modern life, but I think a neat logo is good than not for the
community development.

mu'o

[Sid]

Not the actual cross, just something similar.

[John E. Clifford]

The vp is an accidental feature of Venn diagrams. Happily we did not choose the full form, a la Ballentyne, which is over rich in Christoian symbols (3s all over the place). Of course, turning the arrows into mars loses one connection with modern
Ohic.

Sent from my iPad

[Seth]

again, i have no problem with the current logos, but i love the idea of improving them, or coming up with something better. really, i think the best logo for lojban would be the word "lojban" in an exclusively-designed-for-lojban orthography that is logographic or ideographic or something, preferably designed by the ithkuil guy. have you seen his formal writing system? its incredible. so is his informal.

-----Original Message-----
From: vitci'i <celestial...@gmail.com>
To: lojban <loj...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 20, 2011 1:25 pm
Subject: Re: [lojban] New logo; a work in progress

On 11/20/2011 06:53 PM, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> Are the current logos so horrendous that we have to keep redoing
> them?

Well... yes.

The only lasting solution, I think, would be to get a professional
designer to make a logo.

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[M.Nael]

I'm very sorry it's been that long; the connection is a nightmare here and the school is absolutely daunting to say the least!

Anyway, see the ones up so far...

Regards,

›› MN

[Jonathan Jones]

I definitely do not think 3-eyed smiley face is better than the current logo. In fact, quite the opposite. EW.

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[M. Nael]

The smiley face is to denote Lojban's 'humanness'...

Since no one noticed, the design as a whole is built around "This statement is false. Is it true?" But I'll leave it at that for now.

[vitci'i]

I felt the three-eyed smiley face rather implied alienness.

[M. Nael]

Apart from all of what I meant, I think the middle implies more of a nose, not a third eye... Have ye looked at the three files?

[Jonathan Jones]

Yes.

It's three eyes. And it's ugly.

Bridi man FTW!

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 1:44 PM, M. Nael <muhamm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Apart from all of what I meant, I think the middle implies more of a nose, not a third eye... Have ye looked at the three files?

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[Seth]

I think it can work as a nose nicely, though it should be lowered just a little to be clearer i think. the statement you were trying to convey was lost on me though.

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Nael <muhamm...@gmail.com>
To: lojban <loj...@googlegroups.com>

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[Jonathan Jones]

The message I was trying to convey? I consider the Bridi man (which is the icon that appears on any lojban.org page on the tab) the logo of Lojban, and it's simple, conveys the essence of Lojban easily, and looks nice. Here's an awesome 3D render of the bridi man: http://jbotcan.org/en/src/1283504008182.png

In case you don't know, the head represents the selbri, the other boxes represent the terbri.

[.alyn.post.]

I offer this with the hope that it improves the result/effort ratio
of this conversation:

http://c0redump.org/core_protocol/perfection_game/

The basic idea is to use objective criteria in providing feedback.

-Alan

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 02:13:09PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> Yes.
>
> It's three eyes. And it's ugly.
>
> Bridi man FTW!
>

> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 1:44 PM, M. Nael <[1]muhamm...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> Apart from all of what I meant, I think the middle implies more of a

> nose, not a third eye... Have ye looked at the three*files?

>
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>
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>
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> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
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--
.i ma'a lo bradi cu penmi gi'e du

[Jonathan Jones]

Following the steps:
1. Look at each of the three proposed designs: https://docs.google.com/open?id=1Q2I6bMdDFfRmyNlG2iBvfoNp7WCSf0MpvQsxMyLfgbbBDuv2ZKgJCjUlkw7C https://docs.google.com/open?id=1sQSlCGnhjrZHfSUWdV6_WbZzlrzjveP1j4dOf2OrLOxCACtjQaoAk3is_5FY
2. Offer a rating between 1 and 10 based on how much you believe you can improve them: I do not belive they can be "improved".
3. List the qualities you like about them: Nothing.
4. Offer suggestions on what should be done to improve them: Scrap them, and start over with something that doesn't look like a three-eyed smiley face.

[Jonathan Jones]

Forgot to paste one of the links.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

Following the steps:
1. Look at each of the three proposed designs: https://docs.google.com/open?id=1Q2I6bMdDFfRmyNlG2iBvfoNp7WCSf0MpvQsxMyLfgbbBDuv2ZKgJCjUlkw7C https://docs.google.com/open?id=1sQSlCGnhjrZHfSUWdV6_WbZzlrzjveP1j4dOf2OrLOxCACtjQaoAk3is_5FY  https://docs.google.com/open?id=1otcagq32xZzKg96cuFzKjeFVe08mGDhbyDhOAjq1Rkj85xVOjcAsKcAPNOBG

[Matt Arnold]

M Nael,

Thank you for your contribution. I offer this revision to your
concept. I made all the features more visually prominent and legible,
by balancing the distance between edges. Also, the solid shape defines
the positive from the negative space. This version can be cut from one
piece of material, or stenciled.

Jonathan Jones,

Thanks for supporting the bridi man. I'm flattered that it pleases
you. I just wish you would be more kind and generous about it.
-Eppcott

[.alyn.post.]

I give your playing the perfection game a 1. I like that you
followed the steps of the game. To make it a ten, you would
have to also follow the commitments, which is a contract between
the perfector and the perfectee:

* Accept perfecting without argument.
* Give only positive comments: what you like and what it would
take to "give it a 10."
* Abstain from mentioning what you don't like or being negative in
other ways.
* Withhold points only if you can think of improvements.
* Use ratings that reflect a scale of improvement rather than a
scale of how much you liked the object.
* If you cannot say something you liked about the object or
specifically say how to make the object better, you must give it
a 10.

Below, when you say "I do not believe they can be improved," it
means you have scored the object a 10.

Will you play the pefection game again?

-Alan

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 07:30:26PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> Following the steps:
> 1. Look at each of the three proposed designs:

> [1]https://docs.google.com/open?id=1Q2I6bMdDFfRmyNlG2iBvfoNp7WCSf0MpvQsxMyLfgbbBDuv2ZKgJCjUlkw7C
> [2]https://docs.google.com/open?id=1sQSlCGnhjrZHfSUWdV6_WbZzlrzjveP1j4dOf2OrLOxCACtjQaoAk3is_5FY

> 2. Offer a rating between 1 and 10 based on how much you believe you can
> improve them: I do not belive they can be "improved".
> 3. List the qualities you like about them: Nothing.
> 4. Offer suggestions on what should be done to improve them: Scrap them,
> and start over with something that doesn't look like a three-eyed smiley
> face.
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 6:49 PM, .alyn.post.
> <[3]alyn...@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>
> I offer this with the hope that it improves the result/effort ratio
> of this conversation:
>

> *[4]http://c0redump.org/core_protocol/perfection_game/

>
> The basic idea is to use objective criteria in providing feedback.
>
> -Alan
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 02:13:09PM -0700, Jonathan Jones wrote:

> > * *Yes.
> >
> > * *It's three eyes. And it's ugly.
> >
> > * *Bridi man FTW!
> >
> > * *On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 1:44 PM, M. Nael
> <[1][5]muhamm...@gmail.com>
> > * *wrote:
> >
> > * * *Apart from all of what I meant, I think the middle implies more
> of a
> > * * *nose, not a third eye... Have ye looked at the three*files?
> >
> > * * *--
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> >
> > * *--
> > * *mu'o mi'e .aionys.
> >
> > * *.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do
> zo'o
> > * *(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
> >
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> >
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> > * *4. [15]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en

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[Mark E. Shoulson]

On 11/30/2011 04:36 PM, Seth wrote:

I think it can work as a nose nicely, though it should be lowered just a little to be clearer i think. the statement you were trying to convey was lost on me though.

Among other things, also consider what the logo will look like at various sizes.  Can you scale it down to a 32x32 icon and have it still be recognizable?  The green star of Esperanto is recognizable that small.  The Venn diagram is.  Bridi man is.  The Necker cube is (an old proposed Lojban logo which I still somehow like, even though its main feature is depicting *ambiguity* not lack of ambiguity).  These would just look like smiley-faces, or possibly three-eyed smiley-faces.

~mark

[Seth]

i meant to respond to the author of the "3 eyed alien" logo. i love the bridi man concept, it is the best iconic symbol we have IMHO

[M. Nael]

I had the idea ready for sometime and only got 15 minutes yesterday to pull it out on Illustrator...

Given the negative feedback, I'll look at it again. But to be honest, I'd never seen 'Bridi man' before today... I asmit it's pretty good; maybe it doesn't portray logic in a way I can see, but it certainly portrays Lojban very nicely; I may do some matching-and-mixing-up...

Regards,

›› MN

[Michael Turniansky]

   I just want to go on record as saying I hate bridi man.  I'm not real fond of the new idea, either. I LIKE the venn diagram symbol.  So sue me...

           --gejyspa

--

[M. Nael]

 I just want to go on record as saying I hate bridi man.  I'm not real fond of the new idea, either. I LIKE the venn diagram symbol.  So sue me...
           --gejyspa

Why so jumpy?

›› MN

[M. Nael]

I'm doing it just for fun... Actually, we all should be...

›› MN

[gleki]

Actually the Russian website that stores information on Lojban has been using another simple logo called "menli melbi bangu".

It's just two intersecting rings, a blue one and a violet one.

1. Two rings denote two Venn diagrams.

2. Blue one is the science of logic ("su'u menli", logical language, logical perception)

3. Violet one is intuition (or "su'u melbi" or feelings, emotional perception. The language for humans, not for robots)

4. Being overlapped by each other they denote balance and intersection of two fields in one language.

 

On Saturday, November 19, 2011 9:26:18 PM UTC+4, M.Nael wrote:

Someone had once criticized the Lojban logo;

Just take a look...

It's an initial draft; just to gather opinion.