Let's do something like this for Lojban!

[ianek]

http://ceqli.pbworks.com/w/page/41974416/Ceqli%20through%20pictures

You can start reading it right away, with absolutley no knowledge of
ceqli, though the pronounciation might help.

I think I've seen something remotely similar for Lojban, but it didn't
get past the most simple sentences.

Do you think that translating this comic to Lojban is a good idea (in
case its author gives the permission, of course)?

mu'o mi'e ianek

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Fri, Mar 02, 2012 at 06:13:31AM -0800, ianek wrote:
> http://ceqli.pbworks.com/w/page/41974416/Ceqli%20through%20pictures
>
> You can start reading it right away, with absolutley no knowledge
> of ceqli, though the pronounciation might help.

I've been asking for people to work on this for almost a decade. I
have no visual art skills (those pictures are beyond my skill level,
I'm not even kidding), and I've got other stuff to work on anyways.

-Robin

--
http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li'u

[ianek]

http://i.imgur.com/FsdHp.jpg
This is just a quick and dirty thing to show my own art and story-
telling skills.
But I have a friend who can draw really well and maybe she could help.
But the other important thing is the script. Maybe this can be done
cooperatively?

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 2 Mar, 19:02, Robin Lee Powell <rlpow...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 02, 2012 at 06:13:31AM -0800, ianek wrote:
> >http://ceqli.pbworks.com/w/page/41974416/Ceqli%20through%20pictures
>
> > You can start reading it right away, with absolutley no knowledge
> > of ceqli, though the pronounciation might help.
>
> I've been asking for people to work on this for almost a decade.  I
> have no visual art skills (those pictures are beyond my skill level,
> I'm not even kidding), and I've got other stuff to work on anyways.
>
> -Robin
>

> --http://singinst.org/:  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.

[Pierre Abbat]

On Friday, March 02, 2012 14:03:51 ianek wrote:
> http://i.imgur.com/FsdHp.jpg
> This is just a quick and dirty thing to show my own art and story-
> telling skills.
> But I have a friend who can draw really well and maybe she could help.
> But the other important thing is the script. Maybe this can be done
> cooperatively?

mi nelci le mlatu .ije mi nelci lo mlatu .i mi stidi di'e

ni'o mi kalte lo cipni .i mi tolcri le cipni .i mi smaji jbize'a gi'e plipe le
cipni .i mi catra le cipni .i mi vimcu le pimlu le cipni .i mi citka le cipni

mu'omi'e .pier.
--
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

[Jonathan Jones]

Here's 1-15.

1. coi
2. mi cmene la.ceklizos. (probably want to use a different name)
3. ko'a goi la.djanzos.
4. ko'a cmene la.djanzos.
5. cy: coi.djanzos. dy:coi.ceklizos.
6. mi ninmu
7. ko'a nanmu .i la.djinzos. nanmu
8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu
9. cy: ko'a nanmu dy: ko'e ninmu
10. mi zvati ti
11. do zvati ta
12. ko'i zvati tu
13. mi .e do zvati ti .i mi'o zvati ti
14. mi .e ko'i zvati ti .i mi'a zvati ti
15. do .e ko'i zvati ta .i do'o zvati ta

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Jonathan Jones]

When I get back home from classes today I'll try my hand at some vector-based drawing, and re-create those 15 panels. See how that looks.

[ianek]

The goal of the comic I was proposing is that people with no knowledge
of Lojban could read it. So it shouldn't introduce many words at once
or complex grammar contructs, and everything should be illustrated (so
"mi smaji jbize'a gi'e plipe le cipni"). And also I suggest that the
story should be kid-friendly (so no killing). My comic fails at being
comprehensible for naljbopre, so it should be something better
illustrated or easier.

I'm not sure that translating that comic is a good idea, because
things easy in Ceqli don't have to be easy in Lojban.

mu'o mi'e ianek

[Jonathan Jones]

Well, based on the first 15 panels, the Lojban is comparatively easy. I haven't looked at the rest yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if that trend continued.

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[ianek]

On 2 Mar, 20:28, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's 1-15.
>
> 1. coi
> 2. mi cmene la.ceklizos. (probably want to use a different name)

Actually its "tcenglizos" according to the phonetics of Ceqli, or
"tcenlizos", because we tend to avoid "ng" in Lojban. And -zo is the
suffix indicating proper names, so "tcenglis" or "tcenlis" would be
more appropriate. Of course we would need a different name, though.
Sorry for nit-picking zo'o

And of course you meant "mi se cmene". I make this mistake all the
time.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:09 PM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2 Mar, 20:28, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's 1-15.
>
> 1. coi
> 2. mi cmene la.ceklizos. (probably want to use a different name)

Actually its "tcenglizos" according to the phonetics of Ceqli, or
"tcenlizos", because we tend to avoid "ng" in Lojban. And -zo is the
suffix indicating proper names, so "tcenglis" or "tcenlis" would be
more appropriate. Of course we would need a different name, though.
Sorry for nit-picking zo'o

And of course you meant "mi se cmene". I make this mistake all the
time.

No, I meant {mi'e}, but there's no equivalent for introducing others.
 
In any case, I attempted to match rafsi to tcenglis, and {ten} {lis} makes an interesting name. Made me think of novels, which led me to .clalis., which sounds nice. So, for me they are now .clalis., .djan., and .sam..

[Jonathan Jones]

Okay, here's the first half translated. Someone else work on the last half while I see what I can do with vectors.

1. coi
2. mi se cmene la.clalis.
3. ko'a goi la.djan.
4. ko'a se cmene la.djan.

5. cy: coi.djan.

6. mi ninmu

7. ko'a nanmu .i la.djan. nanmu

8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu

    dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu

9. cy: ko'a nanmu

    dy: ko'e ninmu

10. mi zvati ti
11. do zvati ta
12. ko'i zvati tu
13. mi .e do zvati ti .i mi'o zvati ti
14. mi .e ko'i zvati ti .i mi'a zvati ti
15. do .e ko'i zvati ta .i do'o zvati ta

16. cy: mi se cmene la.clalis. .ije ko'a se cmene la.djan. .i ma cmene do
      sy:mi se cmene la.sam.
17. cy: do ralte lo ta mo vau doi.sam.
      sy: mi ralte lo sedyta'u
18. ti me lo mi sedyta'u .i mi ralte lo mi sedyta'u di'o lo xance .ik mi xanra'e lo mi sedyta'u
19. cy: xu ta me lo do sedyta'u
      sy: go'i .i ti me lo mi sedyta'u
20. cy: do ralte lo ta mo vau doi.djan.
      dy: mi ralte lo tankytu'u .i ti me lo mi tankytu'u
21. ti me lo la.sam. sedyta'u .ije ti me lo la.djan. tankytu'u
22. sy: ta mo doi.clalis.
23. cy: ta gerku
      sy: xu ta me lo do gerku
24. nago'i .i ta na me lo mi gerku .i ta me lo la.djan. gerku
25. sy: doi.djan. ma cmene lo do gerku
      dy: cmene la.flyfis.
26. dy: la.flyfis. dalpe'o mi
      sy: xu la.clalis. ralte ji'a lo dalpe'o
27. sy: go'i .i lo cy. dalpe'o na.ue gerku .i ri mlatu .i lo mlatu cu se cmene la snime (I don't how to attach PU to UI, so I left out "je" of "jiqje".)
28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i sny. barda.iepei mlatu
29. go'i .i la snime cu barda .i ri tcebra
30. lo vi mlatu cu barda .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu
31. lo vi mlatu cu barda fi lo vu mlatu .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu fi lo vi mlatu
32. sy: xu la.flyfis. barda gerku
      cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i ri na'obra
33. cmalu sedyta'u ... barda sedyta'u ... na'obra sedyta'u
34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani
35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma
      cy: ri zvati tu
36. sy: mi zvati ma
      cy: do zvati ta vau doi.sam.

[Miles Forster]

You aren't called "someone called clalis", you're called "clalis".
{mi se cmene zo .clalis}

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/p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/
/bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/

[Jonathan Jones]

Arg.

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/p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/
/bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/

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[Jonathan Jones]

I don't want to sound rude.

That seems rather nit-picky. In my opinion it is always more important that you're understood than that you are right. Especially in a language where "What is that?" is {ta me ma} because {ta mo} is too vague.

When I am speaking of you in Lojban, I refer to you as {la.mailz.}. I think it would be more confusing to someone who has no knowledge of Lojban to use {zo} in those places, which is correct, rather than using {la}, which jbopre can understand.

It's a pleasure to meet you. My name is .aionys.
mi.ui penmi.oinai do mi'e.aionys.

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Miles Forster <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote:

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/p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/
/bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/

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[.arpis.]

It is nitpicky, and I don't know how to balance it correctness with
ease of learning, but I don't like teaching bad habits.

Could {mi'e da'oi} as a way of introducing someone (probably not in
the comic, but in general)?

>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.

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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> /p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/
>> /bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>

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mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[Remo Dentato]

The idea is very neat but you all know I can't draw.

So I tried Pixton (a free on-line comic maker) to see what could be
done quickly (a couple of hours).

Here's the result: http://www.pixton.com/it/comic/8bset8mx

Pixton also allows for collaborative work on the same comic, but it
would require the paid version (4$ for 30 days).

Just to say that if it is acceptable that comics aren't drawn by an
artist (which I'm not), still we could have something useful to show
to nintadni

remod

[Miles Forster]

I understand you're reasoning, but teaching wrong lojban to a beginner, especially when it can be avoided, seems like a bad idea. If you want to stick to {la}, then why not use {mi'e la. clalis} instead?

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mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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[Jonathan Jones]

I changed it for future revisions. I don't think it's important enough to debate. As far as {mi'e la .clalis.} is concerned, la isn't needed in that construct, and there's no second- or third-person equivalents.

[Jonathan Jones]

Here's my translation thus far. I'm going to sleep. Hopefully someone else will have contributed a few panels by the time I wake up. I can say from the experience the hardest part is figuring out what the ceqli words mean.

Anyway, feel free to comment and add suggestions.

1. coi
2. mi se cmene zo.clalis.

3. ko'a goi la.djan.

4. ko'a se cmene zo.djan.
5. cy: coi.djan.
    dy: coi.clalis.

6. mi ninmu
7. ko'a nanmu .i la.djan. nanmu
8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu
   dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu
9. cy: ko'a nanmu
   dy: ko'e ninmu
10. mi zvati ti
11. do zvati ta
12. ko'i zvati tu
13. mi .e do zvati ti .i mi'o zvati ti
14. mi .e ko'i zvati ti .i mi'a zvati ti
15. do .e ko'i zvati ta .i do'o zvati ta

16. cy: mi se cmene zo.clalis. .ije ko'a se cmene zo.djan. .i ma cmene do
     sy:mi se cmene zo.sam.

17. cy: do ralte lo ta mo vau doi.sam.
     sy: mi ralte lo sedyta'u

18. ti me lo mi sedyta'u .i mi ralte lo mi sedyta'u di'o lo xance .i mi xanra'e lo mi sedyta'u

19. cy: xu ta me lo do sedyta'u
     sy: go'i .i ti me lo mi sedyta'u
20. cy: do ralte lo ta mo vau doi.djan.
     dy: mi ralte lo tankytu'u .i ti me lo mi tankytu'u
21. ti me lo la.sam. sedyta'u .ije ti me lo la.djan. tankytu'u
22. sy: ta mo doi.clalis.
23. cy: ta gerku
     sy: xu ta me lo do gerku
24. nago'i .i ta na me lo mi gerku .i ta me lo la.djan. gerku
25. sy: doi.djan. ma cmene lo do gerku

     dy: cmene zo.flyfis.

26. dy: la.flyfis. dalpe'o mi
     sy: xu la.clalis. ralte ji'a lo dalpe'o

27. sy: go'i .i lo cy. dalpe'o na.ue gerku .i ri mlatu .i lo mlatu cu se cmene zo snime (I don't how to attach PU to UI, so I left out "je" of "jiqje".)

28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i sny. barda.iepei mlatu
29. go'i .i la snime cu barda .i ri tcebra
30. lo vi mlatu cu barda .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu
31. lo vi mlatu cu barda fi lo vu mlatu .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu fi lo vi mlatu
32. sy: xu la.flyfis. barda gerku
     cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i ri na'obra
33. cmalu sedyta'u ... barda sedyta'u ... na'obra sedyta'u
34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani
35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma
     cy: ri zvati tu
36. sy: mi zvati ma
     cy: do zvati ta vau doi.sam.

37. sy: do xabju ma doi.clalis.
     cy: mi xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
38. sy: la.djan. xabju ma
      cy: la.djan. xabju ji'a lo vu cmalu zdani
39. sy: xu do .e la.djan. xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
     cy: go'i .i mi'a kanxa'u
40. la.djan. mi speni .i la.djan. nakspe mi .ije mi fetspe dy. .i mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe gi'e kanxa'u
41. mi .e la.djan. .e la snime .e la.flyfis. kanxa'u lo vu cmalu zdani .i ro mi'a vu kanxa'u
42.

[Jonathan Jones]

As to the art: We can, manually, replace the text ourselves, since we have permission to use his work to make a Lojban version (with certain provisos). He's willing to do it himself, even, provided he has the script. I don't think we need to worry about having an artist.

I entreat lo nintadni, our students. There's 31 panels left. Take a few and try to translate them. Try to keep to the established format (translation patterns, speaker indication, for instance), but don't worry too much about it. I can guarantee that it'll help with your learning of Lojban.

[gleki]

May be I missed something. But where exactly on the web are you gonna place the lojbanic copy of Rex May's textbook so that I can read it ?

[gleki]

And one more question. Are you gonna adapt his 8 lessons on Ceqli as well ?

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

I suggest starting with

2. mi me la .clalis.
3. ta me la .djan.
4. zo .djan. cmene ta

Why use SE right at the beginning?

Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series.
Using the latter while pointing can cause so much confusion...

In 12 we may do

12. lo prenu cu zvati tu

Other suggestions:

17. doi .sam. ta mo / sedyta'u (no regard for the original)
18. ti sedyta'u .i mi jgari lo sedyta'u lo xance .i mi xance jgari lo sedyta'u

(By the way, any particular reason for using {sedyta'u} instead of {mapku}?)

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

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[Remo Dentato]

2012/3/3 Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipe...@gmail.com>:

> I suggest starting with
>
> 2. mi me la .clalis.

Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ?
BTW, {clalis} doesn't have the same sound of the orginal that is (if I
understood correctly) roughly equivalent to the Chinese "Chen Li" I'd
prefer {tcenlis}

> 3. ta me la .djan.

This seems a good place to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan.

> 4. zo .djan. cmene ta

I would use the lujvo {selme'e} -> 4. ko'a selme'e zo .djan.
This would avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi
would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene},
they would just guess it means "is named".

> Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series.

Not sure. I would prefer introducing {ko'a} and friends.

> Using the latter while pointing can cause so much confusion...
>
> In 12 we may do
> 12. lo prenu cu zvati tu

My preference would be {vuku ko'e goi tu zvati}

Using {tu} as zvati2 seems too prone to ambiguity. At least it should
be {lovu} so that it is clear you're talking about "there yonder".

remod

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

On 3 March 2012 15:30, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2012/3/3 Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipe...@gmail.com>:
>> I suggest starting with
>>
>> 2. mi me la .clalis.
>
> Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ?
> BTW, {clalis} doesn't have the same sound of the orginal that is (if I
> understood correctly) roughly equivalent to the Chinese "Chen Li" I'd
> prefer {tcenlis}
>

The straightforward and realistic sentence would be {mi'e .clalis.},
I just considered that paralleling 2 and 3 helps understanding the
sentence structure in 3 (as 2 and 4 in the original).

This is the burden of translating an introduction to a different language.

>> 3. ta me la .djan.
> This seems a good place to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan.
>

Just consider how hard it is to figure out the sentence structure at
first sight.
Firstly, it is too long and too dissimilar from nearby sentences. Secondly, the
concept of assignment is highly unexpected. To introduce it via illustrated
examples, I would dedicate a whole sequence of examples to that single
concept and employ at least one reassignment.

Furthermore, when do you expect to use {ko'a} again? The girl is pointing
all the time. And, in particular, in 16, she is talking to a guy who was absent
in 3.

>> 4. zo .djan. cmene ta
> I would use the lujvo {selme'e} -> 4. ko'a selme'e zo .djan.
> This would avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi
> would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene},
> they would just guess it means "is named".
>

That is fine. But why are you avoiding the gismu?

>> Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series.
> Not sure. I would prefer introducing {ko'a} and friends.
>

It is nice to introduce {ko'a}, but, as I said, that is infeasible without
a dedicated story, or at such an early point of this one.

>> Using the latter while pointing can cause so much confusion...
>>
>> In 12 we may do
>> 12. lo prenu cu zvati tu
>
> My preference would be {vuku ko'e goi tu zvati}
>
> Using {tu} as zvati2 seems too prone to ambiguity. At least it should
> be {lovu} so that it is clear you're talking about "there yonder".
>

Wouldn't the roles of zvati1 and zvati2 be clear from 10 and 11?
Similarly, isn't it clear from the green circles that they are talking about
position?

To me, once you know {mi} or {do} you can figure out the sentence
structure right away, which in this case would show the reader the
flexibility of lojban demonstratives.

ta'o zo'o Here is an alternative:
10. vi me mi
11. va me do
12. vu prenu

mu'o
mi'e .asiz,

[MorphemeAddict]

Showing flexibility at this early stage seems like showing off, i.e., a bad thing. Once the learner becomes comfortable with a single way to express an idea, then you can add new ways, one at a time. This seems far too early in that process to me for demonstrating the capabilities of the language. Repetition is much more important (and tedious). 

stevo

ta'o zo'o Here is an alternative:
10. vi me mi
11. va me do
12. vu prenu

mu'o
mi'e .asiz,

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

But it is precisely for repetition that I am arguing, i.e., using {ta}
all the time.
I just pointed that these examples can eliminate possible assumptions that
{ta} is person-specific, which makes things simpler, not more complex.

mu'a si'a {barda} is flexible in that it can be used unchanged regardless of
whether the x1 is singular or plural, person or non-person, etc.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 6:40 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

And one more question. Are you gonna adapt his 8 lessons on Ceqli as well ?

No.

On Saturday, March 3, 2012 5:38:49 PM UTC+4, gleki wrote:

May be I missed something. But where exactly on the web are you gonna place the lojbanic copy of Rex May's textbook so that I can read it ?

I don't know. Maybe on lojban.org's tiki, It has to be made first, though, so where to put it isn't really important yet.
 

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I suggest starting with

2. mi me la .clalis.
3. ta me la .djan.
4. zo .djan. cmene ta

Why use SE right at the beginning?

Two reasons: 1) It's a translation of "My name is 'ceqli', which is {mi se cmene zo....|, not {mi me  la....|
2) In the original, the text in #2 and #4 are equivalent. Parallelism is a useful feature in learning.

 

Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series.
Using the latter while pointing can cause so much confusion...

In 12 we may do

12. lo prenu cu zvati tu

What? You do realize that in 12, ko'i (or lo prenu) and tu are referring to different things? In this case, I'm using tu in place of {lo vu diklo}.
 

Other suggestions:

17. doi .sam. ta mo / sedyta'u (no regard for the original)
18. ti sedyta'u .i mi jgari lo sedyta'u lo xance .i mi xance jgari lo sedyta'u

 

Yeah, I'm sticking with the translation that does have regard for the original, but thanks.
 

(By the way, any particular reason for using {sedyta'u} instead of {mapku}?)

Yes. sedyta'u is what vlasisku told me. My vocab isn't as good as it could be.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

2012/3/3 Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipe...@gmail.com>:

> I suggest starting with
>
> 2. mi me la .clalis.

Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ?

No second- or third-person equivalent to mi'e exists in Lojban currently.
 

BTW, {clalis} doesn't have the same sound of the orginal that is (if I
understood correctly) roughly equivalent to the Chinese "Chen Li" I'd
prefer {tcenlis}

Yes, I know. I mentioned as much when I spoke about my reasons for choosing .clalis.
 

> 3. ta me la .djan.

This seems a good place to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan.

 No, a good place to assign ko'a is in panel #2:

1. coi
2. mi se cmene zo.clalis.

3. ko'a goi la.djan

4. ko'a se cmene zo.djan.
5. cy: coi.djan.
    dy: coi.clalis.

> 4. zo .djan. cmene ta

I would use the lujvo {selme'e} -> 4. ko'a selme'e zo .djan.
This would avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi
would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene},
they would just guess it means "is named".

Um, except for the missing "used by namer x3", that IS what {se cmene} means. I don't see the problem.

> Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series.

Not sure. I would prefer introducing {ko'a} and friends.

> Using the latter while pointing can cause so much confusion...
>
> In 12 we may do
> 12. lo prenu cu zvati tu

My preference would be {vuku ko'e goi tu zvati}

Using {tu} as zvati2 seems too prone to ambiguity. At least it should
be {lovu} so that it is clear you're talking about "there yonder".

lovu what? gadri (lo) convert selbri into sumti. tense markers apply location and/or time information to a bridi. {lovu} by itself is not a sumti.
 

remod

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[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

On 3 March 2012 19:23, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis
> <felipe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I suggest starting with
>>
>> 2. mi me la .clalis.
>> 3. ta me la .djan.
>> 4. zo .djan. cmene ta
>>
>> Why use SE right at the beginning?
>>
> Two reasons: 1) It's a translation of "My name is 'ceqli', which is {mi se
> cmene zo....|, not {mi me  la....|
> 2) In the original, the text in #2 and #4 are equivalent. Parallelism is a
> useful feature in learning.
>

1) I value writing a good introductory text more than translating the original
faithfully. I thought the idea was just to take advantage of the pictures...
2) I know parallelism is important. That is why I made 2 and 3 parallel.
It is true, though, that pictures 2 and 4 are parallel.

>
>>
>> Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series.
>> Using the latter while pointing can cause so much confusion...
>>
>> In 12 we may do
>>
>> 12. lo prenu cu zvati tu
>
>
> What? You do realize that in 12, ko'i (or lo prenu) and tu are referring to
> different things? In this case, I'm using tu in place of {lo vu diklo}.
>

I understand this. I made the remark precisely because {ko'i} should not be
replaced by {tu} in this sentence, but I still think that {ko'i}
should be avoided.

On the other hand, in frames 3, 4, 7 and 9, where there is pointing, the best
would be to use {ta} instead of {ko'a}/{ko'e}.

>>
>> Other suggestions:
>>
>> 17. doi .sam. ta mo / sedyta'u (no regard for the original)
>> 18. ti sedyta'u .i mi jgari lo sedyta'u lo xance .i mi xance jgari lo
>> sedyta'u
>
>
> Yeah, I'm sticking with the translation that does have regard for the
> original, but thanks.
>

Ok, but why?

[Remo Dentato]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

2012/3/3 Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipe...@gmail.com>:

> I suggest starting with
>
> 2. mi me la .clalis.

Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ?

No second- or third-person equivalent to mi'e exists in Lojban currently.

I don't see how this is relevant, {mi'e xxx} is the most common way to introduce oneself and I think it should be thought early.
 

> 3. ta me la .djan.

This seems a good place to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan.

 No, a good place to assign ko'a is in panel #2:

 
You mean, you want to assign ko'a to clalis? She's the only one in panel 2.

3. ko'a goi la.djan

This doesn't mean "this is jan", it simply assigns {ko'a} to {la .djan.} without asserting anything else.
 

4.would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene},

they would just guess it means "is named".

This would avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi

Um, except for the missing "used by namer x3", that IS what {se cmene} means. I don't see the problem.

{selme'e} and {se cmene} are exactly the same, I'm arguing that using the latter is more confusing for nintadni.

lovu what? gadri (lo) convert selbri into sumti.

right, I wrote that in a hurry. It's another reason I stand for using  {vuku}.
 

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 3 March 2012 19:23, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis
> <felipe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I suggest starting with
>>
>> 2. mi me la .clalis.
>> 3. ta me la .djan.
>> 4. zo .djan. cmene ta
>>
>> Why use SE right at the beginning?
>>
> Two reasons: 1) It's a translation of "My name is 'ceqli', which is {mi se
> cmene zo....|, not {mi me  la....|
> 2) In the original, the text in #2 and #4 are equivalent. Parallelism is a
> useful feature in learning.
>

1) I value writing a good introductory text more than translating the original
faithfully. I thought the idea was just to take advantage of the pictures...

I don't think {mi me la.clalis.} is a better introductory text than {mi se cmene zo.clalis.}, especially considering that to my knowledge no jbopre has ever introduced themselves with {mi me ...}.

The idea was to make a Lojban version of it. That's more than merely the pictures. In fact, the original idea was to re-do the artwork, meaning in my mind that the content is more important than the visuals.
 

2) I know parallelism is important. That is why I made 2 and 3 parallel.
It is true, though, that pictures 2 and 4 are parallel.

Which is precisely why the text should be parallel in #2 & #4.

>
>>
>> Also, I recommend using the ti-series in place of the ko'a-series.
>> Using the latter while pointing can cause so much confusion...
>>
>> In 12 we may do
>>
>> 12. lo prenu cu zvati tu
>
>
> What? You do realize that in 12, ko'i (or lo prenu) and tu are referring to
> different things? In this case, I'm using tu in place of {lo vu diklo}.
>

I understand this. I made the remark precisely because {ko'i} should not be
replaced by {tu} in this sentence, but I still think that {ko'i}
should be avoided.

On the other hand, in frames 3, 4, 7 and 9, where there is pointing, the best
would be to use {ta} instead of {ko'a}/{ko'e}.

I disagree. ko'a - vo'u are Lojban's he, she, and it. Unlike most languages, we get 8 of them, and they're all gender neutral. ko'a-vo'u aren't pointing words, they refer to a specific entity, which may be explicitly made using goi, or implicitly assigned from context. Since the ceqli original is, in English, "He is yonder (the far-away there).", it is appropriate for the Lojban to be "ko'a zvati tu"
 

>>
>> Other suggestions:
>>
>> 17. doi .sam. ta mo / sedyta'u (no regard for the original)
>> 18. ti sedyta'u .i mi jgari lo sedyta'u lo xance .i mi xance jgari lo
>> sedyta'u
>
>
> Yeah, I'm sticking with the translation that does have regard for the
> original, but thanks.
>

Ok, but why?

Because it has regard for the original, obviously.

[Remo Dentato]

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2) I know parallelism is important. That is why I made 2 and 3 parallel.
>> It is true, though, that pictures 2 and 4 are parallel.
>
> Which is precisely why the text should be parallel in #2 & #4.

I agree one should preserve the orginal as much as possible but not
without stretching Lojban.

I English you say "My name is", in German you have a specific verb for
this: "ich heiße" while in French, Spanish and Italian you use the
equivalent of "I call myself" ("je m'appel", "me llamo" and "mi
chiamo"). What would you think if I would say "I call myself Remo"
instead of "My name is Remo" just to be faithful to the original
sentence? It wouldn't not be good English.

> I disagree. ko'a - vo'u are Lojban's he, she, and it. Unlike most languages,
> we get 8 of them, and they're all gender neutral. ko'a-vo'u aren't pointing
> words, they refer to a specific entity, which may be explicitly made using
> goi, or implicitly assigned from context.

I disagree here. While I'm a great support of "meaning by context", on
his own {ko'a} has no meaning and can't be used the same way the third
person is used in English and other languages.

>> > Yeah, I'm sticking with the translation that does have regard for the
>> > original, but thanks.
>>
>> Ok, but why?
>
> Because it has regard for the original, obviously.

Which is fine as long the translation is proper Lojban.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Remo Dentato <rden...@gmail.com> wrote:

2012/3/3 Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipe...@gmail.com>:

> I suggest starting with
>
> 2. mi me la .clalis.

Why not simply {mi'e la .clalis} ?

No second- or third-person equivalent to mi'e exists in Lojban currently.

I don't see how this is relevant, {mi'e xxx} is the most common way to introduce oneself and I think it should be thought early.

taught, not thought, I assume.

Panel 2 is "go bekyam 'ceqlizo'." - My name is Ceqli
Panel 4 is "da bekyam 'djanzo'." - His name is Jon.

mi se cmene zo.clalis.

ko'a se cmene zo.djan.

 

> 3. ta me la .djan.

This seems a good place to assign {ko'a} -> 3. ta goi ko'a me la .djan.

 No, a good place to assign ko'a is in panel #2:

 
You mean, you want to assign ko'a to clalis? She's the only one in panel 2.

Excuse me. I meant panel 3.

3. ko'a goi la.djan

This doesn't mean "this is jan", it simply assigns {ko'a} to {la .djan.} without asserting anything else.

Yes. We are saying that ko'a and the name Jon refer to the same entity, established by the context of her pointing at someone in particular.
 

4.would not know about the relationship between {selme'e} and {cmene},

they would just guess it means "is named".

This would avoid using {se}, I agree it's too early, the nintandi

Um, except for the missing "used by namer x3", that IS what {se cmene} means. I don't see the problem.

{selme'e} and {se cmene} are exactly the same, I'm arguing that using the latter is more confusing for nintadni.

I would think the link between {se cmene} and {cmene} would be more readily apparent than the link between {selcme} and {cmene}.

Also, there's no arguing allowed on the Beginner list. If you want to debate, post your argument to the main list.
 

lovu what? gadri (lo) convert selbri into sumti.

right, I wrote that in a hurry. It's another reason I stand for using  {vuku}.

I like tu, myself. It's, you know, shorter.

[Jonathan Jones]

This debate is being moved to the main list.

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[Jonathan Jones]

Here's an update on the translation. I've made some changes based on the suggestions. It's also complete until panel #51 now, with 21 left to go.

1. coi
2. mi se cmene zo.clalis.

3. ko'a goi la.djan.

4. ko'a se cmene zo.djan.
5. cy: coi.djan.
    dy: coi.clalis.

6. mi ninmu
7. ko'a nanmu .i la.djan. nanmu
8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu
   dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu
9. cy: ko'a nanmu
   dy: ko'e ninmu
10. mi zvati ti
11. do zvati ta
12. ko'i zvati tu
13. mi .e do zvati ti .i mi'o zvati ti
14. mi .e ko'i zvati ti .i mi'a zvati ti
15. do .e ko'i zvati ta .i do'o zvati ta

16. cy: mi se cmene zo.clalis. .ije ko'a se cmene zo.djan. .i ma cmene do
     sy:mi se cmene zo.sam.

17. cy: doi.sam. do ralte lo ta mo
     sy: mi ralte lo mapku

18. ti me lo mi mapku .i mi ralte lo mi mapku di'o lo xance .i mi xanra'e lo mi mapku

19. cy: xu ta me lo do mapku
     sy: go'i .i ti me lo mi mapku
20. cy: doi.djan. do ralte lo ta mo

     dy: mi ralte lo tankytu'u .i ti me lo mi tankytu'u

21. ti me lo la.sam. mapku .ije ti me lo la.djan. tankytu'u
22. doi.clalis. ta mo

23. cy: ta gerku
     sy: xu ta me lo do gerku
24. nago'i .i ta na me lo mi gerku .i ta me lo la.djan. gerku
25. sy: doi.djan. ma cmene lo do gerku

     dy: zo.flyfis.cmene

26. dy: la.flyfis. dalpe'o mi
     sy: xu la.clalis. ralte ji'a lo dalpe'o

27. go'i .i lo cy. dalpe'o na.ue gerku .i ri mlatu .i lo mlatu cu se cmene zo snime

28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i sny. barda.iepei mlatu
29. go'i .i la snime cu barda .i ri tcebra
30. lo vi mlatu cu barda .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu
31. lo vi mlatu cu barda fi lo vu mlatu .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu fi lo vi mlatu
32. sy: xu la.flyfis. barda gerku
     cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i ri na'obra

33. cmalu mapku ... barda mapku ... na'obra mapku

34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani
35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma
     cy: ri zvati tu
36. sy: mi zvati ma

     cy: doi.sam. do zvati ta

37. sy: doi.clalis. do xabju ma

     cy: mi xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
38. sy: la.djan. xabju ma
      cy: la.djan. xabju ji'a lo vu cmalu zdani
39. sy: xu do .e la.djan. xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
     cy: go'i .i mi'a kanxa'u
40. la.djan. mi speni .i la.djan. nakspe mi .ije mi fetspe dy. .i mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe gi'e kanxa'u
41. mi .e la.djan. .e la snime .e la.flyfis. kanxa'u lo vu cmalu zdani .i ro mi'a vu kanxa'u

42. mi ponse lo xance .i mi ponse re xance .i mi ponse lo ri'u xance .e lo zu'a xance .i mi ponse re xance .i re xance
      li pa .i lo ri'u xance
      li re .i lo zu'a xance
43. lo mi xance cu kansa .i lo mi xance cu sepli
44. ko'a kansa xabju .i ko'e sepli xabju
45. mi citka .i la.djan. citka .i mi .e la.djan. kansa citka .i mi'a kancti
46. zo ji'a .i la snime cu pendo .iji'a ri mlatu .i mi citka lo plise .iji'a mi citka lo badna
47. la.djan. nanmu .iji'a do nanmu .i mi na nanmu .i mi ninmu
48. la snime cu dalpe'o .ije la.flyfis. dalpe'o ji'a .i mi ponse lo dalpe'o .ije la.djan. ponse ji'a lo dalpe'o
49. sy: xu lo vu cipni cu dalpe'o ji'a
      cy: na go'i
50. lo vu cipni cu danlu gi'e na.ue dalpe'o .i lo dalpe'o cu danlu pendo gi'e xabju lo nanmu je ninmu .i lo vu cipni cu xabju lo tricu
51. co'o la cipni
52.

[ianek]

Isn't "mi ponse lo xance" malrarbau? What is ponse3? To me, the most
natural way to say "I have two hands" in Lojban is "mi se xance lo re
mei".

[Remo Dentato]

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 17. cy: doi.sam. do ralte lo ta mo
>      sy: mi ralte lo mapku

I think {ralte} is not the way to go, it seems malglico to me. It is
"have" in the sense of possession, while "what you have there?" does
not imply possession to me.

I would go with {do dasni lo va mo} -> "you wear the what there?"

remod

[Jonathan Jones]

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:56 AM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Isn't "mi ponse lo xance" malrarbau? What is ponse3? To me, the most

natural way to say "I have two hands" in Lojban is "mi se xance lo re
mei".

 

That breaks symmetry with the original and introduces a lot of new things all at once. If you can find me a better selbri than ponse, I'll use that, but the only other that works well I know is srana.

[Jonathan Jones]

I'm sorry, I need an example of what you would consider having but not possessing to know what you mean.

[Krzysztof Sobolewski]

Dnia niedziela, 4 marca 2012 o 12:00:23 Jonathan Jones napisał(a):
> That breaks symmetry with the original and introduces a lot of new things
> all at once. If you can find me a better selbri than ponse, I'll use that,
> but the only other that works well I know is srana.

Does it have to be a selbri? AFAIR this is a canonical usage of {po'e}.
--
Ecce Jezuch
"But it's not real and that's why its how I always want to feel
so let's die, before the secret gets revealed
I've tried but nothing ever can appeal
and if you don't mind I'd like to throw it all away" - J. Stem

[Pierre Abbat]

On Sunday, March 04, 2012 06:03:06 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> I'm sorry, I need an example of what you would consider having but not
> possessing to know what you mean.

mi javni do la .triktrak. i do ponse le kelci dacti .i mi tolcau pamu rokci
.ije do tolcau pamu drata rokci .iku'i do ponse ro cino rokci

mu'omi'e .pier.
--
La sal en el mar es m�s que en la sangre.
Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.

[gleki]

I'm totally against {ko'a} in this series.

+1 to those who think it's too complicated for the beginners.

We are teaching not math logic but a simple language.

May be create two versions of the translation ?

one with KOhA4 (ko'a...)

another one with KOhA6 (ti,ta,tu) 

[ianek]

That's what I meant when I said I'm not sure if the story of that comic is approproate for explaining the basics of Lojban. I say it again: maybe we should think about a story designed specifically for Lojban. Then we could use pixton or find someone with art skills (my friend said she could help). We can also translate the Ceqli comic od course, but I doubt we'll make it as comprehensible for nintadni as the original.

mu'o mi'e ianek

[gleki]

Let's just use ti,ta,tu and that's done. Rex May's pictures are great.

After that we can discuss developing an original comic where we'll have more freedom.

[Jonathan Jones]

KOhA don't have anything to do with math.

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[Jonathan Jones]

Yes, because you can't have a bridi without one.

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

On Sunday, March 04, 2012 06:03:06 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> I'm sorry, I need an example of what you would consider having but not
> possessing to know what you mean.

mi javni do la .triktrak. i do ponse le kelci dacti .i mi tolcau pamu rokci
.ije do tolcau pamu drata rokci .iku'i do ponse ro cino rokci

I'm sorry, I don't understand that. First of all, "I am a rule mandating you within system Trick Track" makes no sense.

I'm going to assume that you meant something like {mi .e do se nunkei la.triktrak.}, and further, I'm going to assume that Trick Track is a game like Othello, based off your mentioning of two kinds of rocks.

ca lonu la.otelos. se nunkei ku re kelci cu punji lo blabi rokci pe lo pamoi kelci ge'u .e lo xekri rokci pe lo remoi kelci lo kelta'o

I can agree that it is possible for something to be associated with a person without it being in that person's possession, but I still don't see how you could, for example, have something in your hand, and it not be in your possession. You're literally holding it. Whether or not it belongs to you, it is currently in your possession.

ganai cino rokci cu cpana lo mi xance gi mi ralte cino rokci .i ganai pimu rokci cu srana lo remoi kelci gi mi ralte pamu rokci pe lo remoi kelci
 

mu'omi'e .pier.
--

La sal en el mar es más que en la sangre.

Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.

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[Pierre Abbat]

On Sunday, March 04, 2012 17:53:06 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 04, 2012 06:03:06 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> > > I'm sorry, I need an example of what you would consider having but not
> > > possessing to know what you mean.
> >
> > mi javni do la .triktrak. i do ponse le kelci dacti .i mi tolcau pamu
> > rokci .ije do tolcau pamu drata rokci .iku'i do ponse ro cino rokci
>
> I'm sorry, I don't understand that. First of all, "I am a rule mandating
> you within system Trick Track" makes no sense.

I ment "jivna".

> I'm going to assume that you meant something like {mi .e do se nunkei
> la.triktrak.}, and further, I'm going to assume that Trick Track is a game
> like Othello, based off your mentioning of two kinds of rocks.

I meant backgammon, which is so called in some languages.

> ca lonu la.otelos. se nunkei ku re kelci cu punji lo blabi rokci pe lo
> pamoi kelci ge'u .e lo xekri rokci pe lo remoi kelci lo kelta'o
>
> I can agree that it is possible for something to be associated with a
> person without it being in that person's possession, but I still don't see
> how you could, for example, have something in your hand, and it not be in
> your possession. You're literally holding it. Whether or not it belongs to
> you, it is currently in your possession.
>
> ganai cino rokci cu cpana lo mi xance gi mi ralte cino rokci .i ganai pimu
> rokci cu srana lo remoi kelci gi mi ralte pamu rokci pe lo remoi kelci

ponse lo rokci fi ma? Do you possess them or own them?

Pierre
--
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

[Jonathan Jones]

When did I say ponse?

Pierre

--
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

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[Jonathan Jones]

The translation is now complete until panel 60, which leaves 12 left to do. I've made a couple changes to the existing ones. In particular, I figured out since the last update that "jiqje" means "but", so I fixed the corresponding Lojban to have *enai instead of {.ue}. I also replaced every occurance of ponse with srana, until someone figures out a selbri version of po (, in the same way that srana is to pe and ponse is to po'o):

1. coi
2. mi se cmene zo.clalis.

3. ko'a goi la.djan.

4. ko'a se cmene zo.djan.
5. cy: coi.djan.
    dy: coi.clalis.

6. mi ninmu
7. ko'a nanmu .i la.djan. nanmu
8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu
   dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu
9. cy: ko'a nanmu
   dy: ko'e ninmu
10. mi zvati ti
11. do zvati ta
12. ko'i zvati tu
13. mi .e do zvati ti .i mi'o zvati ti
14. mi .e ko'i zvati ti .i mi'a zvati ti
15. do .e ko'i zvati ta .i do'o zvati ta

16. cy: mi se cmene zo.clalis. .ije ko'a se cmene zo.djan. .i ma cmene do
     sy:mi se cmene zo.sam.

17. cy: doi.sam. do ralte lo va mo

     sy: mi ralte lo mapku

18. ti me lo mi mapku .i mi ralte lo mi mapku di'o lo xance .i mi xanra'e lo mi mapku

19. cy: xu ta me lo do mapku
     sy: go'i .i ti me lo mi mapku
20. cy: doi.djan. do ralte lo ta mo
      dy: mi ralte lo tankytu'u .i ti me lo mi tankytu'u
21. ti me lo la.sam. mapku .ije ti me lo la.djan. tankytu'u
22. doi.clalis. ta mo
23. cy: ta gerku
     sy: xu ta me lo do gerku
24. nago'i .i ta na me lo mi gerku .i ta me lo la.djan. gerku
25. sy: doi.djan. ma cmene lo do gerku

     dy: zo.flyfis. cmene

26. dy: la.flyfis. dalpe'o mi
     sy: xu la.clalis. ralte ji'a lo dalpe'o

27. go'i .ijenai lo cy. dalpe'o na gerku .i ri mlatu .i lo mlatu cu se cmene zo snime

28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i sny. barda.iepei mlatu
29. go'i .i la snime cu barda .i ri tcebra
30. lo vi mlatu cu barda .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu
31. lo vi mlatu cu barda fi lo vu mlatu .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu fi lo vi mlatu
32. sy: xu la.flyfis. barda gerku
     cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i ri na'obra
33. cmalu mapku ... barda mapku ... na'obra mapku
34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani
35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma

     cy: ra zvati tu

36. sy: mi zvati ma
     cy: doi.sam. do zvati ta

37. sy: doi.clalis. do xabju ma
     cy: mi xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
38. sy: la.djan. xabju ma
      cy: la.djan. xabju ji'a lo vu cmalu zdani
39. sy: xu do .e la.djan. xabju lo vu cmalu zdani

     cy: go'i .i mi'a kansa xabju
40. la.djan. mi speni .i la.djan. nakspe mi .ije mi fetspe dy. .i mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe gi'e kansa xabju
41. mi .e la.djan. .e la snime .e la.flyfis. kansa xabju lo vu cmalu zdani .i ro mi'a vu kanxa'u
42. mi srana lo xance .i mi srana re xance .i mi srana lo ri'u xance .e lo zu'a xance .i mi srana re xance .i re xance

      li pa .i lo ri'u xance
      li re .i lo zu'a xance
43. lo mi xance cu kansa .i lo mi xance cu sepli
44. ko'a kansa xabju .i ko'e sepli xabju

45. mi citka .i la.djan. citka .i mi .e dy. kansa citka .i mi'a kancti

46. zo ji'a .i la snime cu pendo .iji'a ri mlatu .i mi citka lo plise .iji'a mi citka lo badna
47. la.djan. nanmu .iji'a do nanmu .i mi na nanmu .i mi ninmu

48. la snime cu dalpe'o .ije la.flyfis. dalpe'o ji'a .i mi srana lo dalpe'o .ije la.djan. srana ji'a lo dalpe'o

49. sy: xu lo vu cipni cu dalpe'o ji'a
      cy: na go'i

50. lo vu cipni cu danlu gi'enai dalpe'o .i lo dalpe'o cu danlu pendo gi'e xabju lo nanmu je ninmu .i lo vu cipni cu xabju lo tricu

51. co'o la cipni

52. cy: doi.sam. mi fetspe .i xu do nakspe
      sy: go'i doi.clalis. .i mi nakspe
53. lo vi ninmu cu fetspe mi .i ti se cmene zo.baras.
54. cy: xu do'o srana lo verba
      by: go'i .i mi'a srana ci verba noi me pa nanla .e re nixli
55. cy: xu lo vu nanla cu bersa do'o
      by: nago'i .ija'a nanla .ijenai bersa mi'a
56. lo mi'a bersa cu zasti ti .i ra barda lo vu nanla .i se cmene la.bil. .i la.bil. bersa mi'a .i ra xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a zdani
57. cy: lo do tixnu cu zvati ma
      by: ra zasti tu .i re vu nixli cu tixnu mi'a
58. re mi'a tixnu cu nixli .i ra se cmene zo.grin. .e zo.salis. .i la.salis. mensi la.grin. .ije la.grin. mensi la.salis. .i re nixli cu mensi la.bil.
59. la.grin. .e la.salis. srana pa bruna .i la.bil. bruna la.grin. .e la.salis. .i la.bil. srana re mensi .i la.grin. .e la.salis. mensi la.bil.
60. le ci verba cu bersa mi .ija'a bersa mi .i mi mamta le ci verba .i la.sam. patfu .i mi .e la.sam. rirni le ci verba .i lo mi'a bersa cu nanla .ije lo mi'a tixnu cu nixli
61.

[Jonathan Jones]

Here's an update on the translation:

27. go'i .ijenai lo cy. dalpe'o na gerku .i lo go'i cu mlatu .i lo mlatu cu se cmene zo snime

28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i sny. barda.iepei mlatu

29. go'i .i la snime cu barda .i lo go'i cu tcebra

30. lo vi mlatu cu barda .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu
31. lo vi mlatu cu barda fi lo vu mlatu .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu fi lo vi mlatu
32. sy: xu la.flyfis. barda gerku
     cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i ri na'obra
33. cmalu mapku ... barda mapku ... na'obra mapku
34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani
35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma

     cy: go'i tu

56. lo mi'a bersa cu zvati ti .i lo go'i cu barda lo vu nanla .i se cmene la.bil. .i la.bil. bersa mi'a .i lo go'i xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a zdani

57. cy: lo do tixnu cu zvati ma

      by: go'i tu .i re vu nixli cu tixnu mi'a

58. re mi'a tixnu cu nixli .i ra se cmene zo.grin. .e zo.salis. .i la.salis. mensi la.grin. .ije la.grin. mensi la.salis. .i re nixli cu mensi la.bil.
59. la.grin. .e la.salis. srana pa bruna .i la.bil. bruna la.grin. .e la.salis. .i la.bil. srana re mensi .i la.grin. .e la.salis. mensi la.bil.
60. le ci verba cu bersa mi .ija'a bersa mi .i mi mamta le ci verba .i la.sam. patfu .i mi .e la.sam. rirni le ci verba .i lo mi'a bersa cu nanla .ije lo mi'a tixnu cu nixli

61. cy: lo vu nanmu cu mo
      by: ko'a goi zo.zam. .i lo go'i cu bruna la.sam. .i mi fetspe la.sam. gi'e ji'a me'ispe la.zam. .i la.zam. bunspe mi .i la.zam. famti lo mi'a ci verba
      sy: la.zam. bruna mi
62. la.zam. famti la.bil. .e la.grin. .e la.salis. .i lo se go'i cu se famti la.zam.

[Jonathan Jones]

Okay, the translation is now finished. I'd like to thank everyone who helped me with the translation- oh yeah, nevermind.

Those of you who wish to offer suggestions and/or alternatives, feel free to do so. Afterwards, I'll send the translation to Rex and we can all wait for him to re-do the panels in Lojban.

     cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i lo go'i cu na'obra

33. cmalu mapku ... barda mapku ... na'obra mapku
34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani
35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma

     cy: go'i tu

36. sy: mi zvati ma
     cy: doi.sam. do zvati ta
37. sy: doi.clalis. do xabju ma
     cy: mi xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
38. sy: la.djan. xabju ma
      cy: la.djan. xabju ji'a lo vu cmalu zdani
39. sy: xu do .e la.djan. xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
     cy: go'i .i mi'a kansa xabju
40. la.djan. mi speni .i la.djan. nakspe mi .ije mi fetspe dy. .i mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe gi'e kansa xabju
41. mi .e la.djan. .e la snime .e la.flyfis. kansa xabju lo vu cmalu zdani .i ro mi'a vu kanxa'u
42. mi srana lo xance .i mi srana re xance .i mi srana lo ri'u xance .e lo zu'a xance .i mi srana re xance .i re xance
      li pa .i lo ri'u xance
      li re .i lo zu'a xance
43. lo mi xance cu kansa .i lo mi xance cu sepli
44. ko'a kansa xabju .i ko'e sepli xabju
45. mi citka .i la.djan. citka .i mi .e dy. kansa citka .i mi'a kancti

46. zo ji'a .i la snime cu pendo .iji'a lo go'i cu mlatu .i mi citka lo plise .iji'a mi citka lo badna

47. la.djan. nanmu .iji'a do nanmu .i mi na nanmu .i mi ninmu
48. la snime cu dalpe'o .ije la.flyfis. dalpe'o ji'a .i mi srana lo dalpe'o .ije la.djan. srana ji'a lo dalpe'o
49. sy: xu lo vu cipni cu dalpe'o ji'a
      cy: na go'i
50. lo vu cipni cu danlu gi'enai dalpe'o .i lo dalpe'o cu danlu pendo gi'e xabju lo nanmu je ninmu .i lo vu cipni cu xabju lo tricu
51. co'o la cipni
52. cy: doi.sam. mi fetspe .i xu do nakspe
      sy: go'i doi.clalis. .i mi nakspe
53. lo vi ninmu cu fetspe mi .i ti se cmene zo.baras.
54. cy: xu do'o srana lo verba
      by: go'i .i mi'a srana ci verba noi me pa nanla .e re nixli
55. cy: xu lo vu nanla cu bersa do'o
      by: nago'i .ija'a nanla .ijenai bersa mi'a

56. lo mi'a bersa cu zvati ti .i lo go'i cu barda lo vu nanla .i se cmene la.bil. .i la.bil. bersa mi'a .i lo go'i xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a zdani

57. cy: lo do tixnu cu zvati ma

      by: go'i tu .i re vu nixli cu tixnu mi'a

58. re mi'a tixnu cu nixli .i lo go'i cu se cmene zo.grin. .e zo.salis. .i la.salis. mensi la.grin. .ije la.grin. mensi la.salis. .i re nixli cu mensi la.bil.

59. la.grin. .e la.salis. srana pa bruna .i la.bil. bruna la.grin. .e la.salis. .i la.bil. srana re mensi .i la.grin. .e la.salis. mensi la.bil.
60. le ci verba cu bersa mi .ija'a bersa mi .i mi mamta le ci verba .i la.sam. patfu .i mi .e la.sam. rirni le ci verba .i lo mi'a bersa cu nanla .ije lo mi'a tixnu cu nixli

61. cy: lo vu nanmu cu mo
      by: ko'a goi zo.zam. .i lo go'i cu bruna la.sam. .i mi fetspe la.sam. gi'e ji'a me'ispe la.zam. .i la.zam. bunspe mi .i la.zam. famti lo mi'a ci verba
      sy: la.zam. bruna mi

62. la.zam. famti la.bil. .e la.grin. .e la.salis. .i lo se go'i cu se famti la.zam. .i la.bil. nanmu se famti la.zam. .ije la.grin. .e la.salis. ninmu se famti la.zam. .i la.zam. srana pa nanmu se famti .e re ninmu se famti .i go'i ci se famti
63. cy: ta mo
      by: ta patfu mi .i ta se cmene zo.baluz. .i la.baluz. patfu mi .iji'a pafspe la.sam. gi'e mamypa'u ci mi'a verba .i la.sam. be'aspe la.baluz.
      sy: coi.beluz.
      vy: coi mamypa'u
64. ji'a la.baluz. srana lo fetspe .i lo go'i fetspe cu se cmene zo.jin. .i la.jin. mamta mi gi'e mamymamta ci mi'a verba .iji'a mamyspe la.sam. .i la.sam. be'aspe la.jin. .iji'a jy. be'aspe la.zam.
65. ji'a la.baluz. .e la.djin. srana lo bersa noi se cmene zo.jos. .i la.jos. bruna mi .iji'a la.jos. famti ci mi'a verba .iji'a jy. srana lo nanla .e  lo nixli noi se cmene zo.stiv. .e zo.teris. .i la.stiv. .e la.teris. se famti mi .iji'a lo go'i cu tamne ci mi'a verba ,ije ci mi'a verba cu tamne lo go'i

66.
lo namcu cu jbobau
1 pa  6 xa       10 pano         1,000,000 paki'oki'o
2 re   7 ze       11 papa         >6 za'uxa
3 ci   8 bi        12 pare          >0 za'uno
4 vo   9 so       20 reno         >1 za'u
5 mu  0 no     900 sonono     za'u lo prenu = za'u prenu
                   7000 zeki'o
*1,000 ki'o    2011 renopapa
> za'u          1984 pasobivo

67.
1,000,100 paki'opanono
186,000 pabixaki'o
1,000,000,000 paki'oki'oki'o
= mintu
+te sumji
- sumji
* te pilji
/ pilji
4+9=13    li vo li so te sumji li paci
100-8=92 li panono li bi sumji li sore
8*7=56     li bi li ze te pilji li muxa
99/33=3   li soso li cici pliji li ci

68. cy: doi.baras. do srana xo verba
      by: mi srana ci verba
69. cy: xo le verba cu tixnu
      by: re le ci verba cu tixnu .i pa le ci verba cu bersa
70.
pa bersa re tixnu cu te sumji ci verba
1 bersa + 2 tixnu = 3 verba

ci verba pa bersa cu sumji re tixnu
3 verba - 1 bersa = 2 tixnu

71. cy: doi.baras. lo do verba cu nanca li xo
      by: lo mi bersa cu nanca li so .ije lo mi tixnu cu nanca li paci .i lo go'i cu kanjbe
72. mi nanca li civo .ije lo mi nakspe goi la.sam. nanca li cixa .i lo go'i cu zmadu mi lo se nanca li re .i lo mi'a tixnu cu zmadu lo mi'a bersa lo se nanca li vo

[gleki]

doi .asiz. +1 to your suggestions for {ti,ta,tu}.

What can we do ?

May be create alternative version of the pictures ?

[Remo Dentato]

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 12:57 PM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
> May be create alternative version of the pictures ?

Just to say that Pixton is very easy to use (and I already paid for 1
month of Pixton+).

Remo

[Jonathan Jones]

If no-one has anything to say on the translation between now and tomorrow morning, I'll send it as-is to Rex then so he can get started.

[gleki]

I want ti,ta,tu instead of ko'a.

ko'a seem to me unnatural in simple speech. they are more appropriate for text speech.

Can you ask him to create two versions, one with ko'a and another one without.

[Jonathan Jones]

I can, but I think that's asking a bit much of him, and I don't see the point of having two versions.

It is possible for me to change /most/ of the ko'V over, without much difficulty, but panel #3 poses a problem: How do you say "that is Jon"? {tu du la.djan.}?

Considering the ko'V vs. tV thing is the most vocal issue with this translation, I am willing to make the changes. I must say, though, I honestly don't understand your problems with ko'V. The only reasonable explanation I can think of for why you lot don't like ko'V is that you don't understand them- which, by the way, is a really good reason TO use them here.

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[selpa'i]

I also vote for ti/ta/tu here.

In panel #3 you can simply say {.i ta me la. djan}, which is quite standard.

(The ko'a version is less natural and doesn't really consitute a complete bridi.)

mu'o

-- 
.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna 
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla

[gleki]

My reason is that tV is more natural not because it is common for natural languages but because it is natural for our human behaviour.

{ti,ta,tu} - is something we point to using our hands, gestures.

I clearly understand that ko'V is more powerful but they are more bulky and hence less convenient to use in simple speech.

Yes, we can use them if we wanna be precise.

But the question is

1. whether we wanna teach newbies that know nothing about Lojban,

2. or it's a more advanced level of learning Lojban.

My thought was that Rex May had created a "Complete Idiot's Guide" to Lojban, i.e. accomplished task No 1 for Ceqli. 

Yes, I vote for tV but even if you accept ko'V in the end then

.a'o la .reks.mais. ba curmi lo nu mi basygau la'oi tV la'oi ko'V

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 6:50 AM, gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

My reason is that tV is more natural not because it is common for natural languages but because it is natural for our human behaviour.

{ti,ta,tu} - is something we point to using our hands, gestures.

I clearly understand that ko'V is more powerful but they are more bulky and hence less convenient to use in simple speech.

How?
 

Yes, we can use them if we wanna be precise.

But the question is

1. whether we wanna teach newbies that know nothing about Lojban,

2. or it's a more advanced level of learning Lojban.

My thought was that Rex May had created a "Complete Idiot's Guide" to Lojban, i.e. accomplished task No 1 for Ceqli. 

Rex didn't make anything for Lojban. Ceqli is not a steeping stone for Lojban, It is it's own language, and is only very, very distantly related to Lojban. In fact, it's basically Loglan taken in the opposite direction Lojban went.

Rex made a comic-strip format teaching aid for Ceqli, that's all. One of us saw it and thought Lojban should have one, thus starting this topic, and I translated Rex's Ceqli into Lojban. Me. By myself. With no help from anyone. And no, "I don't like that, I want it this way instead" is not help.
 

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[ianek]

I think it should be "lo va mo", parallel to 17.

>       dy: mi ralte lo tankytu'u .i ti me lo mi tankytu'u
> 21. ti me lo la.sam. mapku .ije ti me lo la.djan. tankytu'u
> 22. doi.clalis. ta mo
> 23. cy: ta gerku
>      sy: xu ta me lo do gerku
> 24. nago'i .i ta na me lo mi gerku .i ta me lo la.djan. gerku
> 25. sy: doi.djan. ma cmene lo do gerku
>      dy: zo.flyfis. cmene

Why not flufis? Ceqli "u" is defined "U as in bOOt".

> 26. dy: la.flyfis. dalpe'o mi
>      sy: xu la.clalis. ralte ji'a lo dalpe'o
> 27. go'i .ijenai lo cy. dalpe'o na gerku .i lo go'i cu mlatu .i lo mlatu cu

Double negation? I think it should be either {go'i .ije lo cy. dalpe'o
na gerku} or {go'i .ijenai lo cy. dalpe'o gerku}. The former is
simpler for beginners, pe'i.

> se cmene zo snime
> 28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i sny. barda.iepei mlatu

{sny} is not a Lojban word, according to vlatai. {sy} was taken by
Sam, but it refers (without {goi}) to the most recent S-sumti, am I
right?

> 29. go'i .i la snime cu barda .i lo go'i cu tcebra
> 30. lo vi mlatu cu barda .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu
> 31. lo vi mlatu cu barda fi lo vu mlatu .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu fi lo vi
> mlatu
> 32. sy: xu la.flyfis. barda gerku
>      cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i lo go'i cu na'obra
> 33. cmalu mapku ... barda mapku ... na'obra mapku
> 34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani
> 35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma
>      cy: go'i tu
> 36. sy: mi zvati ma
>      cy: doi.sam. do zvati ta
> 37. sy: doi.clalis. do xabju ma
>      cy: mi xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
> 38. sy: la.djan. xabju ma
>       cy: la.djan. xabju ji'a lo vu cmalu zdani
> 39. sy: xu do .e la.djan. xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
>      cy: go'i .i mi'a kansa xabju
> 40. la.djan. mi speni .i la.djan. nakspe mi .ije mi fetspe dy. .i mi'a me
> lo nakspe je fetspe gi'e kansa xabju

Wouldn't {joi} be more appropriate here, instead of {je}?

> 41. mi .e la.djan. .e la snime .e la.flyfis. kansa xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
> .i ro mi'a vu kanxa'u
> 42. mi srana lo xance .i mi srana re xance .i mi srana lo ri'u xance .e lo

Maybe {se stuzi}? The only gismu with "inalienable" in the definition,
which is the key word for {po'e}.

> zu'a xance .i mi srana re xance .i re xance
>       li pa .i lo ri'u xance
>       li re .i lo zu'a xance
> 43. lo mi xance cu kansa .i lo mi xance cu sepli
> 44. ko'a kansa xabju .i ko'e sepli xabju
> 45. mi citka .i la.djan. citka .i mi .e dy. kansa citka .i mi'a kancti
> 46. zo ji'a .i la snime cu pendo .iji'a lo go'i cu mlatu .i mi citka lo
> plise .iji'a mi citka lo badna
> 47. la.djan. nanmu .iji'a do nanmu .i mi na nanmu .i mi ninmu
> 48. la snime cu dalpe'o .ije la.flyfis. dalpe'o ji'a .i mi srana lo dalpe'o
> .ije la.djan. srana ji'a lo dalpe'o
> 49. sy: xu lo vu cipni cu dalpe'o ji'a
>       cy: na go'i
> 50. lo vu cipni cu danlu gi'enai dalpe'o .i lo dalpe'o cu danlu pendo gi'e
> xabju lo nanmu je ninmu .i lo vu cipni cu xabju lo tricu

Again, why {je}? I thought that {nanmu je ninmu} is some kind of
hermaphrodite... I would say {lo nanmu ja ninmu} or {lo nanmu a lo
ninmu}.

> 51. co'o la cipni
> 52. cy: doi.sam. mi fetspe .i xu do nakspe
>       sy: go'i doi.clalis. .i mi nakspe
> 53. lo vi ninmu cu fetspe mi .i ti se cmene zo.baras.
> 54. cy: xu do'o srana lo verba

I don't think {stuzi} would work here... So maybe let's keep 42 as is.

>       by: go'i .i mi'a srana ci verba noi me pa nanla .e re nixli
> 55. cy: xu lo vu nanla cu bersa do'o
>       by: nago'i .ija'a nanla .ijenai bersa mi'a
> 56. lo mi'a bersa cu zvati ti .i lo go'i cu barda lo vu nanla .i se cmene

{barda fi lo vu nanla}
I'm not sure that barda3 ("standard/norm") works like bramau2, but
ok...

> la.bil. .i la.bil. bersa mi'a .i lo go'i xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a zdani
> 57. cy: lo do tixnu cu zvati ma
>       by: go'i tu .i re vu nixli cu tixnu mi'a
> 58. re mi'a tixnu cu nixli .i lo go'i cu se cmene zo.grin. .e zo.salis. .i
> la.salis. mensi la.grin. .ije la.grin. mensi la.salis. .i re nixli cu mensi
> la.bil.
> 59. la.grin. .e la.salis. srana pa bruna .i la.bil. bruna la.grin. .e
> la.salis. .i la.bil. srana re mensi .i la.grin. .e la.salis. mensi la.bil.
> 60. le ci verba cu bersa mi .ija'a bersa mi .i mi mamta le ci verba .i

The second {bersa mi} sounds redundant, much more than the original. I
would remove it.

> la.sam. patfu .i mi .e la.sam. rirni le ci verba .i lo mi'a bersa cu nanla
> .ije lo mi'a tixnu cu nixli
> 61. cy: lo vu nanmu cu mo
>       by: ko'a goi zo.zam. .i lo go'i cu bruna la.sam. .i mi fetspe la.sam.

{ko'a goi la.zam.}

> gi'e ji'a me'ispe la.zam. .i la.zam. bunspe mi .i la.zam. famti lo mi'a ci
> verba
>       sy: la.zam. bruna mi
> 62. la.zam. famti la.bil. .e la.grin. .e la.salis. .i lo se go'i cu se
> famti la.zam. .i la.bil. nanmu se famti la.zam. .ije la.grin. .e la.salis.
> ninmu se famti la.zam. .i la.zam. srana pa nanmu se famti .e re ninmu se
> famti .i go'i ci se famti
> 63. cy: ta mo
>       by: ta patfu mi .i ta se cmene zo.baluz. .i la.baluz. patfu mi .iji'a
> pafspe la.sam. gi'e mamypa'u ci mi'a verba .i la.sam. be'aspe la.baluz.
>       sy: coi.beluz.

{baluz} (or {balus}, whatever)

>       vy: coi mamypa'u
> 64. ji'a la.baluz. srana lo fetspe .i lo go'i fetspe cu se cmene zo.jin. .i
> la.jin. mamta mi gi'e mamymamta ci mi'a verba .iji'a mamyspe la.sam. .i
> la.sam. be'aspe la.jin. .iji'a jy. be'aspe la.zam.
> 65. ji'a la.baluz. .e la.djin. srana lo bersa noi se cmene zo.jos. .i

In Ceqli "o" is pronounced "ou", as in "boat", so maybe {djous}? Too
bad he'd be another "dy" in sight.

[MorphemeAddict]

Since Rex May used "ceqlizo" as the embodiment or personification of his language Ceqli, the equivalent persona in Lojban could just be called {la lojban}. And we could forget the name {ceklizos}. 

stevo

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here's 1-15.

1. coi
2. mi cmene la.ceklizos. (probably want to use a different name)
3. ko'a goi la.djanzos.
4. ko'a cmene la.djanzos.
5. cy: coi.djanzos. dy:coi.ceklizos.
6. mi ninmu
7. ko'a nanmu .i la.djinzos. nanmu

8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu
9. cy: ko'a nanmu dy: ko'e ninmu
10. mi zvati ti
11. do zvati ta
12. ko'i zvati tu
13. mi .e do zvati ti .i mi'o zvati ti
14. mi .e ko'i zvati ti .i mi'a zvati ti
15. do .e ko'i zvati ta .i do'o zvati ta

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:03 PM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/FsdHp.jpg
This is just a quick and dirty thing to show my own art and story-
telling skills.
But I have a friend who can draw really well and maybe she could help.
But the other important thing is the script. Maybe this can be done
cooperatively?

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 2 Mar, 19:02, Robin Lee Powell <rlpow...@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 02, 2012 at 06:13:31AM -0800, ianek wrote:
> >http://ceqli.pbworks.com/w/page/41974416/Ceqli%20through%20pictures
>
> > You can start reading it right away, with absolutley no knowledge
> > of ceqli, though the pronounciation might help.
>
> I've been asking for people to work on this for almost a decade.  I
> have no visual art skills (those pictures are beyond my skill level,
> I'm not even kidding), and I've got other stuff to work on anyways.
>
> -Robin
>

> --http://singinst.org/:  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.

> .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
> lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
> lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni li'u

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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[Jonathan Jones]

Wow, dude. You're way behind the times. I've already changed her name to .clalis. Also, I don't like the idea of calling a person "Lojban". There is a point at which parallelism has gone too far, and I think naming her la.lojban. is that point.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:54 PM, ianek <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> 20. cy: doi.djan. do ralte lo ta mo

I think it should be "lo va mo", parallel to 17.

It should be. I'm going to call this a typo.

<snip>
>      dy: zo.flyfis. cmene

Why not flufis? Ceqli "u" is defined "U as in bOOt".

It seems fairly obvious to me that "flufizo" is a Ceqli-ization of "Fluffy", which is a fairly common English name for a dog. .flyfis. is closer to "Fluffy" than .flufis.

<snip>

> 27. go'i .ijenai lo cy. dalpe'o na gerku .i lo go'i cu mlatu .i lo mlatu cu

Double negation? I think it should be either {go'i .ije lo cy. dalpe'o
na gerku} or {go'i .ijenai lo cy. dalpe'o gerku}. The former is
simpler for beginners, pe'i.

Huh. I thought I'd fixed that. Hm, it must be some other spot that had a double negative I fixed....

> 28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i sny. barda.iepei mlatu

{sny} is not a Lojban word, according to vlatai.

Yes. I know.
 

{sy} was taken by
Sam, but it refers (without {goi}) to the most recent S-sumti, am I
right?

I don't know. What I do know is, beginner's /won't/ know, and will most likely assume that sy. will still reference Sam.

I thought of saying syny., but I wasn't certain if readers would get that syny. = la snime, whereas I'm fairly certain they would get sny. = la snime

I also thought of using my., but again, I wasn't sure if readers would be able to transition along my. = le mlatu = la snime

I suppose I could say lo go'i...
 

<snip>

> 40. la.djan. mi speni .i la.djan. nakspe mi .ije mi fetspe dy. .i mi'a me
> lo nakspe je fetspe gi'e kansa xabju

Wouldn't {joi} be more appropriate here, instead of {je}?

Possibly, but it introduces a new concept, and je is still appropriate.

mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe = "myself-and-others are-amongst-those-that-are something-which-actually-is-one-or-more-wives-and-husbands"

<snip>

> 50. lo vu cipni cu danlu gi'enai dalpe'o .i lo dalpe'o cu danlu pendo gi'e
> xabju lo nanmu je ninmu .i lo vu cipni cu xabju lo tricu

Again, why {je}? I thought that {nanmu je ninmu} is some kind of
hermaphrodite... I would say {lo nanmu ja ninmu} or {lo nanmu a lo
ninmu}.

It's not my fault you're assuming {lo nanmu je ninmu} refers to a single entity.

Yes, it should be {lo nanmu ja ninmu}.
 

<snip>

> 54. cy: xu do'o srana lo verba

I don't think {stuzi} would work here... So maybe let's keep 42 as is.

That was my thinking.

<snip>

> 56. lo mi'a bersa cu zvati ti .i lo go'i cu barda lo vu nanla .i se cmene

{barda fi lo vu nanla}
I'm not sure that barda3 ("standard/norm") works like bramau2, but
ok...

I'll just add zmadu and make it a tanru. I don't like the idea of using yet another new lujvo, but you're right that barda alone doesn't really work.

<snip>

> 60. le ci verba cu bersa mi .ija'a bersa mi .i mi mamta le ci verba .i

The second {bersa mi} sounds redundant, much more than the original. I
would remove it.

I don't consider redundancy in a teaching tool to be a valid reason for removal.
 

<snip>

>       by: ko'a goi zo.zam. .i lo go'i cu bruna la.sam. .i mi fetspe la.sam.

{ko'a goi la.zam.}

Thank you. I must've done that by mistake when I was changing the {la} in the {se cmene la.} occurrences to {zo}.
 

<snip>

> 63. cy: ta mo
>       by: ta patfu mi .i ta se cmene zo.baluz. .i la.baluz. patfu mi .iji'a
> pafspe la.sam. gi'e mamypa'u ci mi'a verba .i la.sam. be'aspe la.baluz.
>       sy: coi.beluz.

{baluz} (or {balus}, whatever)

Typo.
 

<snip>

> 65. ji'a la.baluz. .e la.djin. srana lo bersa noi se cmene zo.jos. .i

In Ceqli "o" is pronounced "ou", as in "boat", so maybe {djous}? Too
bad he'd be another "dy" in sight.

Same thing as with Fluffy. His name is obviously Joe. The "yet another dy." is my reason for not calling him .djos.

<snip>

I'll make the fixes and re-post the translation when I have.

[Jonathan Jones]

Okay, update to the translation. I'm going to assume everyone is okay with it as is now. The ko'V have been replaced by tV, and to minimize confusion, all the uses of tV that referred to a location are now vVku. Let me know if I missed any:

1. coi
2. mi se cmene zo.clalis.

3. ta du la.djan.
4. ta se cmene zo.djan.

5. cy: coi.djan.
    dy: coi.clalis.
6. mi ninmu

7. ta nanmu .i la.djan. nanmu

8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu
   dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu

9. cy: ta nanmu
   dy: ta ninmu
10. mi zvati viku
11. do zvati vaku
12. tu zvati vuku
13. mi .e do zvati viku .i mi'o zvati viku
14. mi .e ti zvati viku .i mi'a zvati viku
15. do .e ta zvati vaku .i do'o zvati vaku

16. cy: mi se cmene zo.clalis. .ije ko'a se cmene zo.djan. .i ma cmene do
     sy:mi se cmene zo.sam.
17. cy: doi.sam. do ralte lo va mo
     sy: mi ralte lo mapku
18. ti me lo mi mapku .i mi ralte lo mi mapku di'o lo xance .i mi xanra'e lo mi mapku
19. cy: xu ta me lo do mapku
     sy: go'i .i ti me lo mi mapku

20. cy: doi.djan. do ralte lo va mo

      dy: mi ralte lo tankytu'u .i ti me lo mi tankytu'u
21. ti me lo la.sam. mapku .ije ti me lo la.djan. tankytu'u
22. doi.clalis. ta mo
23. cy: ta gerku
     sy: xu ta me lo do gerku
24. nago'i .i ta na me lo mi gerku .i ta me lo la.djan. gerku
25. sy: doi.djan. ma cmene lo do gerku
     dy: zo.flyfis. cmene

26. dy: la.flyfis. dalpe'o mi
     sy: xu la.clalis. ralte ji'a lo dalpe'o

27. go'i .ije lo cy. dalpe'o na gerku .i lo go'i cu mlatu .i lo mlatu cu se cmene zo snime

28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i lo go'i cu barda.iepei mlatu

29. go'i .i la snime cu barda .i lo go'i cu tcebra

30. lo vi mlatu cu barda .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu
31. lo vi mlatu cu barda fi lo vu mlatu .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu fi lo vi mlatu
32. sy: xu la.flyfis. barda gerku

     cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i lo go'i cu na'obra

33. cmalu mapku ... barda mapku ... na'obra mapku
34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani
35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma

     cy: go'i vuku

36. sy: mi zvati ma

     cy: doi.sam. do zvati vaku

37. sy: doi.clalis. do xabju ma
     cy: mi xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
38. sy: la.djan. xabju ma
      cy: la.djan. xabju ji'a lo vu cmalu zdani
39. sy: xu do .e la.djan. xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
     cy: go'i .i mi'a kansa xabju

40. la.djan. mi speni .i la.djan. nakspe mi .ije mi fetspe dy. .i mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe gi'e kansa xabju

41. mi .e la.djan. .e la snime .e la.flyfis. kansa xabju lo vu cmalu zdani .i ro mi'a vu kanxa'u

42. mi srana lo xance .i mi srana re xance .i mi srana lo ri'u xance .e lo zu'a xance .i mi srana re xance .i re xance

      li pa .i lo ri'u xance
      li re .i lo zu'a xance
43. lo mi xance cu kansa .i lo mi xance cu sepli

44. tu kansa xabju .i tu sepli xabju

45. mi citka .i la.djan. citka .i mi .e dy. kansa citka .i mi'a kancti

46. zo ji'a .i la snime cu pendo .iji'a lo go'i cu mlatu .i mi citka lo plise .iji'a mi citka lo badna

47. la.djan. nanmu .iji'a do nanmu .i mi na nanmu .i mi ninmu
48. la snime cu dalpe'o .ije la.flyfis. dalpe'o ji'a .i mi srana lo dalpe'o .ije la.djan. srana ji'a lo dalpe'o
49. sy: xu lo vu cipni cu dalpe'o ji'a
      cy: na go'i

50. lo vu cipni cu danlu gi'enai dalpe'o .i lo dalpe'o cu danlu pendo gi'e xabju lo nanmu ja ninmu .i lo vu cipni cu xabju lo tricu

51. co'o la cipni
52. cy: doi.sam. mi fetspe .i xu do nakspe
      sy: go'i doi.clalis. .i mi nakspe
53. lo vi ninmu cu fetspe mi .i ti se cmene zo.baras.

54. cy: xu do'o srana lo verba

      by: go'i .i mi'a srana ci verba noi me pa nanla .e re nixli
55. cy: xu lo vu nanla cu bersa do'o
      by: nago'i .ija'a nanla .ijenai bersa mi'a

56. lo mi'a bersa cu zvati viku .i lo go'i cu barda zmadu lo vu nanla .i se cmene la.bil. .i la.bil. bersa mi'a .i lo go'i xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a zdani

57. cy: lo do tixnu cu zvati ma

      by: go'i tu .i re vu nixli cu tixnu mi'a

58. re mi'a tixnu cu nixli .i lo go'i cu se cmene zo.grin. .e zo.salis. .i la.salis. mensi la.grin. .ije la.grin. mensi la.salis. .i re nixli cu mensi la.bil.

59. la.grin. .e la.salis. srana pa bruna .i la.bil. bruna la.grin. .e la.salis. .i la.bil. srana re mensi .i la.grin. .e la.salis. mensi la.bil.

60. le ci verba cu bersa mi .ija'a bersa mi .i mi mamta le ci verba .i la.sam. patfu .i mi .e la.sam. rirni le ci verba .i lo mi'a bersa cu nanla .ije lo mi'a tixnu cu nixli

61. cy: lo vu nanmu cu mo

      by: ko'a goi la.zam. .i lo go'i cu bruna la.sam. .i mi fetspe la.sam. gi'e ji'a me'ispe la.zam. .i la.zam. bunspe mi .i la.zam. famti lo mi'a ci verba
      sy: la.zam. bruna mi

62. la.zam. famti la.bil. .e la.grin. .e la.salis. .i lo se go'i cu se famti la.zam. .i la.bil. nanmu se famti la.zam. .ije la.grin. .e la.salis. ninmu se famti la.zam. .i la.zam. srana pa nanmu se famti .e re ninmu se famti .i go'i ci se famti

63. cy: ta mo
      by: ta patfu mi .i ta se cmene zo.baluz. .i la.baluz. patfu mi .iji'a pafspe la.sam. gi'e mamypa'u ci mi'a verba .i la.sam. be'aspe la.baluz.

      sy: coi.baluz.

      vy: coi mamypa'u
64. ji'a la.baluz. srana lo fetspe .i lo go'i fetspe cu se cmene zo.jin. .i la.jin. mamta mi gi'e mamymamta ci mi'a verba .iji'a mamyspe la.sam. .i la.sam. be'aspe la.jin. .iji'a jy. be'aspe la.zam.

65. ji'a la.baluz. .e la.djin. srana lo bersa noi se cmene zo.jos. .i la.jos. bruna mi .iji'a la.jos. famti ci mi'a verba .iji'a jy. srana lo nanla .e  lo nixli noi se cmene zo.stiv. .e zo.teris. .i la.stiv. .e la.teris. se famti mi .iji'a lo go'i cu tamne ci mi'a verba .ije ci mi'a verba cu tamne lo go'i

66.
lo namcu cu jbobau
1 pa  6 xa       10 pano         1,000,000 paki'oki'o
2 re   7 ze       11 papa         >6 za'uxa
3 ci   8 bi        12 pare          >0 za'uno
4 vo   9 so       20 reno         >1 za'u
5 mu  0 no     900 sonono     za'u lo prenu = za'u prenu
                   7000 zeki'o
*1,000 ki'o    2011 renopapa
> za'u          1984 pasobivo

67.
1,000,100 paki'opanono
186,000 pabixaki'o
1,000,000,000 paki'oki'oki'o
= mintu

+ te sumji

- sumji
* te pilji
/ pilji
4+9=13    li vo li so te sumji li paci
100-8=92 li panono li bi sumji li sore
8*7=56     li bi li ze te pilji li muxa
99/33=3   li soso li cici pliji li ci

68. cy: doi.baras. do srana xo verba
      by: mi srana ci verba
69. cy: xo le verba cu tixnu

      by: re le ci verba cu tixnu .i pa le ci verba cu bersa

70.
pa bersa re tixnu cu te sumji ci verba
1 bersa + 2 tixnu = 3 verba

ci verba pa bersa cu sumji re tixnu
3 verba - 1 bersa = 2 tixnu

71. cy: doi.baras. lo do verba cu nanca li xo
      by: lo mi bersa cu nanca li so .ije lo mi tixnu cu nanca li paci .i lo go'i cu kanjbe
72. mi nanca li civo .ije lo mi nakspe goi la.sam. nanca li cixa .i lo go'i cu zmadu mi lo se nanca li re .i lo mi'a tixnu cu zmadu lo mi'a bersa lo se nanca li vo

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

On 6 March 2012 19:32, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> to minimize confusion,
> all the uses of tV that referred to a location are now vVku.
>

{viku} is not a sumti, so that is not a genuine substitution. It just
happens that
the textual substitution gives
{mi zvati viku} === {mi vi zvati} === {viku mi zvati},
which might work.

(I have not made up my mind about how to read space/time tenses in selbri
that have places for position/time)

Anyway, please consider the possible confusion of taking {viku} to be a sumti.
To someone unacquainted with lojban, all evidence in the text points in that
direction. Particularly misleading is

> 36. sy: mi zvati ma
> cy: doi.sam. do zvati vaku

where a sumti-question is answered with a tense.

Below some random things I spotted.

> 56. lo mi'a bersa cu zvati viku .i lo go'i cu barda zmadu lo vu nanla .i se
> cmene la.bil. .i la.bil. bersa mi'a .i lo go'i xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a
> zdani

> .i se
> cmene la.bil.

la -> zo

> .i lo go'i xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a
> zdani

This sentence has no selbri. Maybe you wanted
{.i lo go'i cu xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a zdani}?

Anyway, I am not sure {lo mi'a zdani} is a kansa3, but it is xabju2,
{.i lo go'i cu xabju be lo mi'a zdani be'o kansa mi'a}.

Anynyway, the simple
{.i lo go'i cu xabju kansa mi'a}
looks equally informative to me.

> 57. cy: lo do tixnu cu zvati ma
>       by: go'i tu .i re vu nixli cu tixnu mi'a

Here you left the {tu} to denote a place, in contrast with 36. Overlooked?

As I said, I actually prefer this {tu} version.

By the way, why did you choose to always answer sumti-questions with
a full bridi, as opposed to a simple sumti?

> 72. mi nanca li civo .ije lo mi nakspe goi la.sam. nanca li cixa .i lo go'i
> cu zmadu mi lo se nanca li re .i lo mi'a tixnu cu zmadu lo mi'a bersa lo se
> nanca li vo
>

zmadu3 is a dimension, so it should be {lo ka ce'u nanca makau kei}.
Since this is the last utterance, and it appears to be decipherable,
you might want to play with the reader and leave it like that. A more
friendly alternative is to use a tanru like {nanca zmadu}, as in 56.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipe...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6 March 2012 19:32, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> to minimize confusion,
> all the uses of tV that referred to a location are now vVku.
>

{viku} is not a sumti, so that is not a genuine substitution. It just
happens that
the textual substitution gives
 {mi zvati viku} === {mi vi zvati} === {viku mi zvati},
which might work.

(I have not made up my mind about how to read space/time tenses in selbri
that have places for position/time)

Anyway, please consider the possible confusion of taking {viku} to be a sumti.
To someone unacquainted with lojban, all evidence in the text points in that
direction. Particularly misleading is

> 36. sy: mi zvati ma
>      cy: doi.sam. do zvati vaku

where a sumti-question is answered with a tense.

Right then. In that case,  I'm going back to the way I had it, because I find the idea of readers confusing something which is not a sumti with something that is entirely unacceptable, and I am also unwilling to risk the confusion caused by referring to both places and things with tV. (Panel 12 would be {tu zvati tu}, for example.)

 

Below some random things I spotted.

> 56. lo mi'a bersa cu zvati viku .i lo go'i cu barda zmadu lo vu nanla .i se
> cmene la.bil. .i la.bil. bersa mi'a .i lo go'i xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a
> zdani

> .i se
> cmene la.bil.

la -> zo

Just when you think you've gotten them all, another one pops up.

 

> .i lo go'i xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a
> zdani

This sentence has no selbri. Maybe you wanted
 {.i lo go'i cu xabju kansa mi'a lo mi'a zdani}?

Yes.

 

Anyway, I am not sure {lo mi'a zdani} is a kansa3, but it is xabju2,
 {.i lo go'i cu xabju be lo mi'a zdani be'o kansa mi'a}.

No, not exactly, k3 of this would be {lonu xabju lo mi'a zdani}, but I'm not sure introducing abstractors at all in this is a good idea.

Thinking about it
 

Anynyway, the simple
 {.i lo go'i cu xabju kansa mi'a}
looks equally informative to me.

No, it doesn't say anything about where they live together. My friend Tom does not live in the same house as his mother, but he does live in the same city, so this information is in fact important.

Thinking about it, I think I'll change it to {lo go'i .e mi'a kansa xabju lo mi'a zdani}.
 

> 57. cy: lo do tixnu cu zvati ma
>       by: go'i tu .i re vu nixli cu tixnu mi'a

Here you left the {tu} to denote a place, in contrast with 36. Overlooked?

Yes. Thank you.

As I said, I actually prefer this {tu} version.

By the way, why did you choose to always answer sumti-questions with
a full bridi, as opposed to a simple sumti?

?
 

> 72. mi nanca li civo .ije lo mi nakspe goi la.sam. nanca li cixa .i lo go'i
> cu zmadu mi lo se nanca li re .i lo mi'a tixnu cu zmadu lo mi'a bersa lo se
> nanca li vo
>

zmadu3 is a dimension, so it should be {lo ka ce'u nanca makau kei}.
Since this is the last utterance, and it appears to be decipherable,
you might want to play with the reader and leave it like that. A more
friendly alternative is to use a tanru like {nanca zmadu}, as in 56.

z3 is not a dimension. It is a property or quantity. lo se nanca is a quantity.
 

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

[Jonathan Jones]

I disagree with the idea that ko'V are too complicated, unnatural, bulky, etc., and alternatives actually create /more/ possibilities for reader confusion, not less. Since that is the only issue that remains unresolved, I'm playing the "I did all the work, you can deal with it" card. The translation is sticking with using ko'V, not tV, and I am considering this the final draft. If anyone sees any other issues, lease bring them to my attention within 24 hours, as at that time I will be sending the translation to Rex so that he can finally get to work on putting together the Lojban version of his comic:

1. coi
2. mi se cmene zo.clalis.

3. ko'a goi la.djan.

4. ko'a se cmene zo.djan.

5. cy: coi.djan.
   dy: coi.clalis.
6. mi ninmu

7. ko'a nanmu .i la.djan. nanmu

8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu
   dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu

9. cy: ko'a nanmu
   dy: ko'e ninmu
10. mi zvati ti
11. do zvati ta
12. ko'i zvati tu
13. mi .e do zvati ti .i mi'o zvati ti
14. mi .e ko'i zvati ti .i mi'a zvati ti
15. do .e ko'i zvati ta .i do'o zvati ta

    cy: go'i tu

36. sy: mi zvati ma

    cy: doi.sam. do zvati ta

37. sy: doi.clalis. do xabju ma
    cy: mi xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
38. sy: la.djan. xabju ma
    cy: la.djan. xabju ji'a lo vu cmalu zdani
39. sy: xu do .e la.djan. xabju lo vu cmalu zdani
    cy: go'i .i mi'a kansa xabju
40. la.djan. mi speni .i la.djan. nakspe mi .ije mi fetspe dy. .i mi'a me lo nakspe je fetspe gi'e kansa xabju
41. mi .e la.djan. .e la snime .e la.flyfis. kansa xabju lo vu cmalu zdani .i ro mi'a vu kanxa'u
42. mi srana lo xance .i mi srana re xance .i mi srana lo ri'u xance .e lo zu'a xance .i mi srana re xance .i re xance
    li pa .i lo ri'u xance
    li re .i lo zu'a xance
43. lo mi xance cu kansa .i lo mi xance cu sepli

44. ko'a kansa xabju .i ko'e sepli xabju

45. mi citka .i la.djan. citka .i mi .e dy. kansa citka .i mi'a kancti
46. zo ji'a .i la snime cu pendo .iji'a lo go'i cu mlatu .i mi citka lo plise .iji'a mi citka lo badna
47. la.djan. nanmu .iji'a do nanmu .i mi na nanmu .i mi ninmu
48. la snime cu dalpe'o .ije la.flyfis. dalpe'o ji'a .i mi srana lo dalpe'o .ije la.djan. srana ji'a lo dalpe'o
49. sy: xu lo vu cipni cu dalpe'o ji'a
    cy: na go'i
50. lo vu cipni cu danlu gi'enai dalpe'o .i lo dalpe'o cu danlu pendo gi'e xabju lo nanmu ja ninmu .i lo vu cipni cu xabju lo tricu
51. co'o la cipni
52. cy: doi.sam. mi fetspe .i xu do nakspe
    sy: go'i doi.clalis. .i mi nakspe
53. lo vi ninmu cu fetspe mi .i ti se cmene zo.baras.
54. cy: xu do'o srana lo verba
    by: go'i .i mi'a srana ci verba noi me pa nanla .e re nixli
55. cy: xu lo vu nanla cu bersa do'o
    by: nago'i .ija'a nanla .ijenai bersa mi'a

56. lo mi'a bersa cu zvati ti .i lo go'i cu barda zmadu lo vu nanla .i se cmene zo.bil. .i la.bil. bersa mi'a .i lo go'i .e mi'a kansa xabju lo mi'a zdani

57. cy: lo do tixnu cu zvati ma
    by: go'i tu .i re vu nixli cu tixnu mi'a

    by: lo mi bersa cu nanca li so .ije lo mi tixnu cu nanca li paci .i lo go'i cu kanjbe

72. mi nanca li civo .ije lo mi nakspe goi la.sam. nanca li cixa .i lo go'i cu zmadu mi lo se nanca li re .i lo mi'a tixnu cu zmadu lo mi'a bersa lo se nanca li vo

[gleki]

On Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:38:53 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

I disagree with the idea that ko'V are too complicated, unnatural, bulky, etc., and alternatives actually create /more/ possibilities for reader confusion, not less. Since that is the only issue that remains unresolved, I'm playing the "I did all the work, you can deal with it" card. The translation is sticking with using ko'V, not tV, and I am considering this the final draft.

Well, at least you determined that tV+vV is worse in some cases

vi'o

[MorphemeAddict]

So 15 seconds ago. 

Yeah, I saw "clalis" and gagged. 

stevo

[Felipe Gonçalves Assis]

On 7 March 2012 03:08, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis
> <felipe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 6 March 2012 19:32, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > to minimize confusion,
>> > all the uses of tV that referred to a location are now vVku.
>> >
>>
>> {viku} is not a sumti, so that is not a genuine substitution.
>

> Right then. In that case,  I'm going back to the way I had it, because I
> find the idea of readers confusing something which is not a sumti with
> something that is entirely unacceptable, and I am also unwilling to risk the
> confusion caused by referring to both places and things with tV. (Panel 12
> would be {tu zvati tu}, for example.)
>

As previously commented, from panels 10, 11 and the circles it is clear that
clalis is pointing at places. Panel 12 could be {lo prenu cu zvati
tu}. It is really
up to you, though.

>>
>> > 72. mi nanca li civo .ije lo mi nakspe goi la.sam. nanca li cixa .i lo
>> > go'i
>> > cu zmadu mi lo se nanca li re .i lo mi'a tixnu cu zmadu lo mi'a bersa lo
>> > se
>> > nanca li vo
>> >
>>
>> zmadu3 is a dimension, so it should be {lo ka ce'u nanca makau kei}.
>> Since this is the last utterance, and it appears to be decipherable,
>> you might want to play with the reader and leave it like that. A more
>> friendly alternative is to use a tanru like {nanca zmadu}, as in 56.
>
>
> z3 is not a dimension. It is a property or quantity. lo se nanca is a
> quantity.
>

z4 is a quantity and a {se nanca}. z3 is a quantity that is a function of
something. Otherwise, what could be an answer to the following questions?
{la .sam. zmadu la .clalis. li xo}
{la .sam. zmadu la .clalis. lo se nanca be ma}

[Jonathan Jones]

What was 15 seconds ago?

[Jonathan Jones]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis <felipe...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> zmadu3 is a dimension, so it should be {lo ka ce'u nanca makau kei}.

>> Since this is the last utterance, and it appears to be decipherable,
>> you might want to play with the reader and leave it like that. A more
>> friendly alternative is to use a tanru like {nanca zmadu}, as in 56.
>
>
> z3 is not a dimension. It is a property or quantity. lo se nanca is a
> quantity.
>

z4 is a quantity and a {se nanca}. z3 is a quantity that is a function of
something. Otherwise, what could be an answer to the following questions?
 {la .sam. zmadu la .clalis. li xo}
 {la .sam. zmadu la .clalis. lo se nanca be ma}

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

Seriously, stop arguing things without making sure you're right first.

zmadu: x₁ exceeds/is more than x₂ in property/quantity x₃ (ka/ni) by amount/excess x₄.

z4 is amount by which x1 is more than x2, z3 is the property/quantity in which x1 is more.

[ianek]

I'm with aionys here. One can argue, that z3 should be a ka/ni
abstraction and n2 is a number, but
"Semantically, a sumti with “le ni” is a number" CLL 11.5
But I think that putting an exact number (like {li mu}) in z3 wouldn't
mean much.

mu'o mi'e ianek

On 7 Mar, 20:57, Jonathan Jones <eyeo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Felipe Gonçalves Assis <
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> felipeg.as...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> zmadu3 is a dimension, so it should be {lo ka ce'u nanca makau kei}.
> > >> Since this is the last utterance, and it appears to be decipherable,
> > >> you might want to play with the reader and leave it like that. A more
> > >> friendly alternative is to use a tanru like {nanca zmadu}, as in 56.
>
> > > z3 is not a dimension. It is a property or quantity. lo se nanca is a
> > > quantity.
>
> > z4 is a quantity and a {se nanca}. z3 is a quantity that is a function of
> > something. Otherwise, what could be an answer to the following questions?
> >  {la .sam. zmadu la .clalis. li xo}
> >  {la .sam. zmadu la .clalis. lo se nanca be ma}
>
> > mu'o
> > mi'e .asiz.
>
> Seriously, stop arguing things without making sure you're right first.
>

> zmadu <http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/zmadu>: x1 exceeds/is more than x

[MorphemeAddict]

It was a reference to a recent TV commercial where the two guys with new 4G mocked the guys with old 3G (or slower, like me). Nothing of import, for sure. 

stevo

[Jonathan Jones]

That explains why I didn't get the reference. I don't watch TV.

[MorphemeAddict]

And now you have just one more reason not to.  

stevo

[Jonathan Jones]

.u'icai

[Michael Turniansky]

Although, of course, most people would in actuality use "mi'e
clalis", since la isn't necessary after a COI. But other than that,
you are correct, Miles. Don't teach wrong. It's your job to model
correct usage, especially to beginners. Just like you do with a baby
learning language. (As for me, if I didn't want to use "ta mo", I'd
probably use "ta du ma" rather than "ta me ma" (or if I wanted to be
pedantic (read, a jerk), I'd use "ta cmima ma") But they are ALL just
as vague. Just as the English is. When you say, "what is that?"
pointing to a stick, you can receive the answer "long" or "brown". In
lojban, you can receive "clani" or "bunre" to the "mo", or "lo
clani/bunre" to the "ma". And they are all just as valid answers. So
what? How can someone know what kind of answer you expect, unless you
clarify it? (perhaps "ta cmima ma noi dacti klesi" might be a little
clearer, perhaps not)
--gejyspa

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 5:12 AM, Miles Forster <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote:
> I understand you're reasoning, but teaching wrong lojban to a beginner,
> especially when it can be avoided, seems like a bad idea. If you want to
> stick to {la}, then why not use {mi'e la. clalis} instead?
>
> Am 03.03.2012 00:54, schrieb Jonathan Jones:
>
> I don't want to sound rude.
>
> That seems rather nit-picky. In my opinion it is always more important that
> you're understood than that you are right. Especially in a language where
> "What is that?" is {ta me ma} because {ta mo} is too vague.
>
> When I am speaking of you in Lojban, I refer to you as {la.mailz.}. I think
> it would be more confusing to someone who has no knowledge of Lojban to use
> {zo} in those places, which is correct, rather than using {la}, which jbopre
> can understand.
>
> It's a pleasure to meet you. My name is .aionys.
> mi.ui penmi.oinai do mi'e.aionys.
>
> On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Miles Forster <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote:
>>
>> You aren't called "someone called clalis", you're called "clalis".
>> {mi se cmene zo .clalis}
>>
>> Am 03.03.2012 00:15, schrieb Jonathan Jones:
>>>
>>> Okay, here's the first half translated. Someone else work on the last
>>> half while I see what I can do with vectors.
>>>
>>> 1. coi
>>> 2. mi se cmene la.clalis.

>>> 3. ko'a goi la.djan.

>>> 4. ko'a se cmene la.djan.
>>> 5. cy: coi.djan.
>>> 6. mi ninmu
>>> 7. ko'a nanmu .i la.djan. nanmu

>>> 8. cy: mi ninmu .i do nanmu
>>>    dy: mi nanmu .i do ninmu
>>> 9. cy: ko'a nanmu
>>>    dy: ko'e ninmu
>>> 10. mi zvati ti
>>> 11. do zvati ta
>>> 12. ko'i zvati tu
>>> 13. mi .e do zvati ti .i mi'o zvati ti
>>> 14. mi .e ko'i zvati ti .i mi'a zvati ti
>>> 15. do .e ko'i zvati ta .i do'o zvati ta

>>> 16. cy: mi se cmene la.clalis. .ije ko'a se cmene la.djan. .i ma cmene do
>>>      sy:mi se cmene la.sam.
>>> 17. cy: do ralte lo ta mo vau doi.sam.
>>>      sy: mi ralte lo sedyta'u
>>> 18. ti me lo mi sedyta'u .i mi ralte lo mi sedyta'u di'o lo xance .ik mi
>>> xanra'e lo mi sedyta'u
>>> 19. cy: xu ta me lo do sedyta'u
>>>      sy: go'i .i ti me lo mi sedyta'u
>>> 20. cy: do ralte lo ta mo vau doi.djan.

>>>      dy: mi ralte lo tankytu'u .i ti me lo mi tankytu'u

>>> 21. ti me lo la.sam. sedyta'u .ije ti me lo la.djan. tankytu'u
>>> 22. sy: ta mo doi.clalis.

>>> 23. cy: ta gerku
>>>      sy: xu ta me lo do gerku
>>> 24. nago'i .i ta na me lo mi gerku .i ta me lo la.djan. gerku
>>> 25. sy: doi.djan. ma cmene lo do gerku

>>>      dy: cmene la.flyfis.

>>> 26. dy: la.flyfis. dalpe'o mi
>>>      sy: xu la.clalis. ralte ji'a lo dalpe'o

>>> 27. sy: go'i .i lo cy. dalpe'o na.ue gerku .i ri mlatu .i lo mlatu cu se
>>> cmene la snime (I don't how to attach PU to UI, so I left out "je" of
>>> "jiqje".)
>>> 28. xu la snime cu mlatu .i sny. barda.iepei mlatu
>>> 29. go'i .i la snime cu barda .i ri tcebra

>>> 30. lo vi mlatu cu barda .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu
>>> 31. lo vi mlatu cu barda fi lo vu mlatu .i lo vu mlatu cu cmalu fi lo vi
>>> mlatu
>>> 32. sy: xu la.flyfis. barda gerku

>>>      cy: nago'i .i la.flyfis. barda najenai cmalu .i ri na'obra
>>> 33. cmalu sedyta'u ... barda sedyta'u ... na'obra sedyta'u

>>> 34. barda zdani ... cmalu zdani ... na'obra zdani
>>> 35. sy: la.djan. zvati ma

>>>      cy: ri zvati tu

>>> 36. sy: mi zvati ma

>>>      cy: do zvati ta vau doi.sam.

>>>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>>
>>
>>
>> --

>> /p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/
>> /bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/

>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.
>
>
>
> --

> /p4a ja ma%sam ni"dZwanja-\e ta %bja Z mu "karu/
> /bja "dZi:wan i kwa "ZwEja ta Z mu "karu/