3:58:55 AM aristidesfl: rsms: I've been thinking about tabs lately
3:59:13 AM aristidesfl: I think you did an awsome job with the chrome tabs
3:59:52 AM aristidesfl: and I think they are the most beutiful and functional tabs I ve seen so far
3:59:54 AM aristidesfl: but
4:00:12 AM aristidesfl: I'm wondering if they are the best solution
4:00:15 AM aristidesfl: I mean
4:00:36 AM aristidesfl: They are pretty intuitive and they are pretty much the standard
4:00:55 AM aristidesfl: and they work pretty well
4:01:08 AM aristidesfl: (with a few files)
4:01:25 AM aristidesfl: but when we pass the 7 barrier
4:01:45 AM aristidesfl: they start to show their limitation
4:01:51 AM codykrieger: I rather like them, they're wonderful. Already loads better than TM's tabs...we just need a way to have them scroll.
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4:02:58 AM codykrieger: Instead of the BS way TextMate does it with the little arrows, and no way to see what actual tabs you have open. Tab scrolling would be awesome.
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4:03:27 AM aristidesfl: codykrieger:
4:03:45 AM aristidesfl: look at the user list of this chat room
4:04:05 AM aristidesfl: imagine that it what displayed horizontally
4:04:28 AM aristidesfl: it would take much more time to scan
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4:04:53 AM codykrieger: True, but I don't honestly think that you can ever be truly working with that many files at once. Not efficiently.
4:04:58 AM aristidesfl: because they are spread in a bigger area
4:05:31 AM aristidesfl: codykrieger: not with tabs
4:05:45 AM aristidesfl: codykrieger: not with tabs, you don't
4:05:58 AM codykrieger: I've definitely had that many things open before, but I've never actually worked on that many things simultaneously.
4:06:13 AM puls: has the way textmate or safari does it ever become a serious limitation? I say no
4:06:42 AM codykrieger: Right, I think that it forces you to be more reasonable, actually.
4:07:10 AM aristidesfl: the second reason the vertical disposition works better is because you can scan the initials of the names more easily
4:07:39 AM aristidesfl: right now
4:07:58 AM aristidesfl: you have to close and open and close and open and close and open
4:08:02 AM aristidesfl: often the same file
4:08:10 AM aristidesfl: because you don't have space
4:08:20 AM aristidesfl: and because it because unmanagable
4:08:23 AM aristidesfl: it's a limitation
4:08:25 AM aristidesfl: not a feature
4:08:27 AM aristidesfl: and
4:08:46 AM aristidesfl: it there are kinds of applications/projects where a few files are ok
4:08:58 AM aristidesfl: others are just to big and complex
4:09:31 AM codykrieger: Limitation can be one of the best parts of a piece of software with a vested interest in minimalism.
4:09:45 AM codykrieger: Limitation within reason, at least.
4:09:47 AM aristidesfl: can
4:09:53 AM aristidesfl: can be
4:10:29 AM aristidesfl: but that is a choice that you want to make yourself
4:10:50 AM aristidesfl: not because is to hard to handle many files
4:11:06 AM aristidesfl: Tabs have limitations
4:11:16 AM aristidesfl: firefox guys are the firt to admit it
4:11:27 AM aristidesfl: and they are currently searching for solutions
4:12:02 AM aristidesfl: I think we should at least give it a thought
4:12:14 AM codykrieger: Giving users less ways to shoot themselves in the feet is a good thing, though. I'd argue that since you can only have so many tabs open at once, without going to multiple windows, it forces you to work on less things at once. Multitasking is a killer of productivity in a lot of cases.
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4:12:50 AM codykrieger: Yeah I'm not opposed to checking it out, but tabs seem like a great solution in this case.
4:13:01 AM aristidesfl: multitasking is having to think about managing tabs and coding at the same time
4:13:26 AM aristidesfl: that is multitaskin
4:14:10 AM codykrieger: Maybe. But what would happen to the sidebar? Would it become a dual-functionality kind of thing? Project navigator and open file navigator?
4:14:11 AM aristidesfl: the oposite would be don't care about closing the funcking tabs because you can actually manage them efficiently
4:14:31 AM aristidesfl: that is espresso aproach
4:14:37 AM codykrieger: Espresso has an interesting way of handling it.
4:14:41 AM codykrieger: Exactly, yeah.
4:14:59 AM aristidesfl: I found it weard at begging
4:15:08 AM aristidesfl: but now find it interesting actually
4:15:26 AM codykrieger: But then how do you navigate those files with the keyboard? cmd+[ and cmd+] aren't as intuitive, because you're not navigating left and right anymore.
4:15:40 AM codykrieger: Or shift+cmd+[ rather.
4:15:47 AM aristidesfl: even more if I could have the files organized by last use, like application swithcer in MacOS
4:17:21 AM aristidesfl: well, we could navigate by typing the name
4:17:31 AM aristidesfl: on the locationbar
4:17:41 AM aristidesfl: or by up and down arrows
4:17:45 AM aristidesfl: or any other shortcut
4:17:47 AM codykrieger: Why not just eliminate open file navigation completely at that point then?
4:17:56 AM codykrieger: And just use an open-quickly model?
4:18:10 AM aristidesfl: that is interesting also
4:18:27 AM aristidesfl: http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/acb/codebubbles_site.htm
4:18:29 AM codykrieger: That's more Vim-like in that it's closer to a modal interface.
4:18:32 AM aristidesfl: did you see this?
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4:19:37 AM codykrieger: That is weeeeeeeiiiiirrrddd...
4:20:03 AM codykrieger: Interesting concept. That would really take some getting used to.
4:20:45 AM codykrieger: Considering Kod is supposed to be a text editor, I don't think we can get quite that crazy, but interesting nonetheless.
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4:21:53 AM alisdair: tabs are pretty silly really
4:22:05 AM alisdair: just load all the files in the project into memory
4:22:14 AM alisdair: and you can switch between them instantly anyways
4:22:54 AM codykrieger: That could be a potentially crippling thing, though. Where do you draw the line with which files to load into memory? Maybe I've got a 90mb log file in the project...don't want that loaded.
4:23:17 AM aristidesfl: yeah that's probably not the best idea ever
4:23:25 AM codykrieger: You could have some kind of filter, I suppose, like "don't load .log files into memory"
4:23:30 AM alisdair: 90mb is tiny though
4:23:32 AM alisdair: on modern systems
4:23:56 AM alisdair: i can have a video project open that's 1.5 gb
4:23:59 AM alisdair: with no problem
4:24:10 AM alisdair: i can't have a couple hundred mbs of text?
4:24:39 AM codykrieger: Yeah, but I think the second Kod starts taking up large amounts of memory upon starting up, it becomes more like a typical IDE in terms of memory usage.
4:25:22 AM aristidesfl: alisdair: but is not only about loading the text
4:25:29 AM aristidesfl: its about parsing
4:25:55 AM alisdair: well
4:25:57 AM aristidesfl: I'm sure your video software doesn't open in a couple of seconds
4:25:59 AM alisdair: you wouldn't preload everything
4:26:03 AM codykrieger: It wouldn't necessarily have to be parsed after being loaded into memory. That would be hugely inefficient on the part of the parser, which should really only parse visible text at once.
4:26:04 AM alisdair: you'd load lazily, on demand
4:26:07 AM alisdair: and parse on demand
4:26:27 AM alisdair: but tabs are just a poor way of organizing trees of data, like projects
4:26:31 AM aristidesfl: but then no advantage in loading into memory
4:26:48 AM aristidesfl: is just tiny text is loads fast anyway
4:26:54 AM aristidesfl: what takes time is parsing
4:27:04 AM aristidesfl: the real purpose of tabs is to provide quick access list of current working files
4:27:19 AM aristidesfl: right now
4:27:41 AM alisdair: right, what i really mean is that when you switch documents, don't discard the current doc, just load the new one
4:27:45 AM aristidesfl: and for that purpose I think espresso approach works better
4:28:01 AM alisdair: every file in the project should be considered a current working file
4:28:34 AM alisdair: if your source hierarchy is insufficient to provide quick access to files, then there's better ways to improve access than tabs
4:28:49 AM aristidesfl: alisdair: sure but a file that you used recently has higher probability of being needed again in the near future
4:29:08 AM alisdair: right, that's why you don't discard it, just keep it referenced but inactive
4:29:34 AM aristidesfl: sure but that implementation details
4:29:40 AM alisdair: the only reason we put up with tabs for quick access to documents is because firefox does it
4:29:48 AM alisdair: and no one has really thought about better ways to do it
4:29:50 AM aristidesfl: I was refering in the user point of view
4:29:59 AM aristidesfl: yes
4:30:02 AM alisdair: i am too, i think tabs are awful
4:30:13 AM alisdair: from a ui perspective
4:30:28 AM aristidesfl: and because tabs are a good real world metaphor
4:30:46 AM aristidesfl: they are not always aweful
4:31:11 AM alisdair: why don't we use a tabbed interface on the desktop then?
4:31:13 AM aristidesfl: but they become when the number of tabs exceeds a certain value
4:31:18 AM alisdair: why a window paradigm?
4:32:44 AM aristidesfl: http://☁.ws/崧
4:32:48 AM aristidesfl: look at this
4:33:22 AM aristidesfl: what I wouldn't give for vertical tabs
4:33:40 AM codykrieger: Vertical tabs, or an Espresso-like implementation?
4:34:03 AM aristidesfl: I like espresso implementation
4:34:34 AM aristidesfl: cause it just takes a little bit of space from the tree
4:34:59 AM codykrieger: As soon as you have that many things open, though, the whole tree is either gone, or you have to scroll a lot.
4:35:07 AM codykrieger: Both implementations have issues with having large amounts of files open.
4:35:14 AM aristidesfl: sure
4:35:37 AM aristidesfl: but espresso handles more
4:36:01 AM codykrieger: Depends on your window dimensions
4:38:13 AM aristidesfl: What if
4:38:18 AM aristidesfl: single files
4:38:29 AM aristidesfl: files open in tabs
4:38:40 AM aristidesfl: folders open in tabs
4:39:11 AM aristidesfl: if you open files from the tree
4:39:11 AM alisdair: what about instead of persistent tabs, you just keep the last n documents viewed in some sort of queue you can move around in?
4:39:27 AM aristidesfl: yeah
4:39:42 AM aristidesfl: we coud stiil keep tabs
4:39:58 AM codykrieger: Or maybe ditch tabs...Exposé approach.
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4:40:36 AM codykrieger: Hit a key combo, bam, you're zoomed out and see a bunch of files you've opened with little previews and whatnot.
4:40:49 AM alisdair: yeah
4:40:55 AM alisdair: i think expose is much better than tabs
4:41:05 AM aristidesfl: well..
4:41:07 AM codykrieger: Move around w/ keyboard or mouse, pick your file, you're zoomed back in and focused on one file at a time, completely modal.
4:41:14 AM aristidesfl: I personally don't like expose
4:41:42 AM aristidesfl: I think it is slower than the application list
4:41:47 AM aristidesfl: or window list
4:41:51 AM aristidesfl: or typing
4:41:56 AM codykrieger: As cool as I think that idea is, it might be a little too different for the majority of people who are going to be using Kod.
4:42:14 AM aristidesfl: and there is another problem
4:42:35 AM aristidesfl: the reason expose works on mac is widows are different
4:42:43 AM aristidesfl: code windows are code windows
4:42:59 AM aristidesfl: onde they are miniaturized its hard to distinguish them
4:43:26 AM aristidesfl: what if
4:43:46 AM aristidesfl: each folder (project) has his own tab, and the files that belong to that project open in the same tab in the side bar a la espresso
4:44:16 AM aristidesfl: and if you open a single file that doesn't belong to the folder/project it opens in a different tab
4:44:33 AM codykrieger: I think that just adds unnecessarily vertical bloat to the window. I'd just open a separate Kod window for a separate project.
4:44:53 AM codykrieger: unnecessary*
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4:45:07 AM aristidesfl: by vertical bloat wou mean?
4:45:35 AM codykrieger: The extra amount of vertical space taken up by the tab bar - 90% of people are only going to be working on a single project at a time, most likely.
4:45:38 AM sivel: if kod starts focusing that much on "projects" it will end up being just another code editor that no one wants to use. I think what is going to make this special is if it maintains itself as a simple minimalistic code editor
4:45:52 AM codykrieger: Right, that's what I think as well.
4:46:08 AM aristidesfl: ok forget the projects
4:46:16 AM aristidesfl: replace that with folders
4:46:27 AM aristidesfl: codykrieger: the tabs are optional
4:47:00 AM aristidesfl: if there is only one tab it could diappear
4:47:06 AM aristidesfl: and be only the window
4:47:48 AM aristidesfl: the advantage I see in having tabs instead of windows is that navigating between windows of the same aplication is not that fast
4:48:00 AM aristidesfl: not that organized
4:48:18 AM aristidesfl: that is why most people like tabs browsers
4:48:36 AM codykrieger: Right, but again, the focus is on the text editor, not necessarily Kod's ability to handle folders and projects.
4:49:48 AM codykrieger: It just first and foremost be a great text editor. Able to be used for a single file very easily, and also just as easy to open a folder with it and work on multiple files. But much past that I think is outside the scope of what Kod is.
4:51:05 AM aristidesfl: sure
4:52:27 AM aristidesfl: but you have already lots of fast text editors
4:52:34 AM aristidesfl: use text edit
4:52:37 AM aristidesfl: its fast
4:52:47 AM codykrieger: But it's not a programmers' text editor.
4:52:52 AM aristidesfl: use textmate
4:53:02 AM aristidesfl: use vim
4:53:09 AM aristidesfl: emacs?
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4:53:54 AM aristidesfl: what I mean is
4:54:12 AM aristidesfl: everyone has their ones hopes about code
4:54:28 AM aristidesfl: and they want to see they feature fulfilled
4:54:40 AM aristidesfl: if they don't bring compromise
4:54:55 AM aristidesfl: I don't see any reason not to make them happen
4:55:32 AM codykrieger: It just seems too IDE-ish when that's not Kod's primary focus.
4:57:25 AM aristidesfl: come one
4:57:47 AM aristidesfl: it becomes an IDE because it can handle mode that one folder?
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4:58:06 AM aristidesfl: http://☁.ws/䘶
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4:58:18 AM aristidesfl: 11 files
4:58:29 AM aristidesfl: vertical vs horizontal roganization
4:59:15 AM aristidesfl: tabs look better
4:59:21 AM aristidesfl: but try to find something there
4:59:42 AM codykrieger: Sure, but that doesn't handle the multiple folders thing
5:00:04 AM aristidesfl: it doesn't
5:00:29 AM aristidesfl: 2 different battles
5:00:49 AM aristidesfl: the 2nd battle is
5:01:03 AM aristidesfl: tabs really work well when there are not too many
5:01:17 AM codykrieger: Right, because like I said before, I'm not opposed to vertical navigation. But I do like the tabs.
5:01:26 AM aristidesfl: and so maybe it makes sense to use them to something else
5:02:01 AM aristidesfl: you could still deatach them
5:02:37 AM codykrieger: I think if we ditch tabs for files, we ditch tabs entirely. No point in keeping them just to add multiple projects functionality. That's the whole point of window separation.
5:03:44 AM aristidesfl: I think the main point of window separation if so be able to put them in different monitors or compare files side by side
5:04:10 AM aristidesfl: you could still use tabs
5:04:15 AM aristidesfl: when you open files manually
5:05:16 AM aristidesfl: vertical tabs would be working only when working on a folder and the sidebar is therefore active
5:06:10 AM aristidesfl: fuck
5:06:12 AM codykrieger: Then we've got two completely separate and distinct ways of managing files with Kod, which flies in the face of minimalism.
5:06:14 AM aristidesfl: 5 in the morning
5:06:21 AM codykrieger: lol it's only 11pm here
5:06:45 AM aristidesfl: that is true
5:06:52 AM aristidesfl: not very minimalistic..
5:07:10 AM aristidesfl: but then… remove
5:07:14 AM aristidesfl: the tree
5:07:22 AM aristidesfl: start removing things
5:07:32 AM aristidesfl: and it gets more minimalistic
5:08:03 AM aristidesfl: but I see what you mean
5:08:18 AM codykrieger: Yeah I mean that's really my biggest concern with an approach like that.
5:08:45 AM aristidesfl: the way I see tabs
5:08:54 AM aristidesfl: is just a whay of grouping windows
5:09:06 AM aristidesfl: you have different windows
5:09:24 AM aristidesfl: and you can actually put them on top of each other
5:09:26 AM aristidesfl: like tabs
5:09:44 AM aristidesfl: that is what a tab shoud be
5:09:47 AM aristidesfl: a window
5:09:50 AM aristidesfl: not a file
5:10:01 AM aristidesfl: files belong to the sidebar
5:10:38 AM aristidesfl: but that is just one aproach
5:10:52 AM aristidesfl: that I think has potencial
5:11:14 AM codykrieger: The issue then becomes, what happens when you hit cmd+t? Where does the sidebar open to by default?
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5:11:56 AM codykrieger: All of a sudden cmd+t has a lot more meaning behind it, which could be totally unexpected by the user.
5:12:14 AM aristidesfl: well
5:12:19 AM aristidesfl: that is a ™ thing
5:12:23 AM aristidesfl: textmate
5:12:30 AM codykrieger: cmd+t no longer means just opening up a fresh blank file, it means opening an entirely new "project"
5:12:33 AM aristidesfl: in tabs world
5:12:41 AM aristidesfl: cmd tab means: new tab
5:12:54 AM aristidesfl: forget projects
5:13:07 AM aristidesfl: in a new tab you can open whatever you want
5:13:21 AM aristidesfl: file, folder, webpage,
5:13:36 AM aristidesfl: there are no projects
5:14:00 AM codykrieger: I'm using folder and project interchangeably - same difference to me.
5:14:37 AM aristidesfl: sure I'm just worried about the connotations the word projects brings attached--
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And expose, are you kidding me?... Each time you want to switch
between files, you'd have to press a shortcut, look at miniatures of
files (which look the same from distance), move the cursor to one of
them and click it - how is that faster than pressing
Cmd+Alt+left/right? And if someone doesn't have two big screens, they
often need to switch back and forth between 2 or 3 tabs all the time
if they're working on 2 or 3 related files (like code and test)...
this is a very basic action and it needs to be fast and simple.
Also, I don't like the idea of opening separate projects in tabs and
then separate files of these projects in other tabs within those
tabs... that's probably too complicated. And loading every file from a
project into memory at startup is also obviously a bad idea - and even
if it wasn't, the purpose of tabs is not to limit the amount of data
that the editor has to load, it's to let you switch between a few
currently open files as quickly as possible.
And "you have already lots of fast text editors, use textmate" is a
bad argument - I think most people here would agree that what we're
looking for is something very similar to TextMate, just better. It's
not another Netbeans that we want, it's another TextMate.
(Sorry if I sound harsh, it's probably because I got woken up earlier
than I planned...)
I like how in Xcode, by default, cmd-opt-Left and cmd-opt-Right used to go backward and forward in the history of opened files. They changed these defaults in a recent version so those keystrokes go backward and forward in the history of your editing position, which is more fine grained because you might jump around within a file any number of ways. I prefer the old way, so my Xcode has:
* cmd-opt-Left/Right = go to previous/next file in history (at the position where you were editing)
* cmd-opt-shift-Left/Right = go to next editing position in history
Note that the same file may occur multiple times in your history.
Between these keystrokes, the popup menu of open files, global search, and Open Quickly, I don't mind the absence of tabs in Xcode.
> * use temporary tabs
> I sometimes have to browse through several files, looking for a
> piece of information. In current editors, this leads to enormous
> tab-overload. An option to auto-close a tab would be great.
> Ane possible implementation: arrange the tabs by last recently used. A
> keyboard shortcut allows you to "browse" thru. Single clicks (or
> with arrow keys) in the project tree will open the tab (all left)
> a double click (or enter) permanently.
> This could be combined with the "at most X tabs" approach; just remove
> ones on the right side.
Because Xcode doesn't use tabs, I never worry about tab overload, though I sometimes force-close files with cmd-shift-W to prune the files popup. Xcode has an "at most X files" option in the file popup menu, but I have it set to unlimited and it's never been a problem.
These are just suggestions. I think I would be pretty happy with a text editor that did things this way.
Replying here because I can't understand the discussion tree with the new google groups interface.Have you heard of peepopen? While not related to gui, it relates to file opening: http://peepcode.com/products/peepopen
+1 Simple. Keep the tried and true tab metaphor. Make the files that
"fall off" available via something like TM Cmd+T or Intellij Ctl+E.
I think "open new blank tab" doesn't make much sense here - it's
essential in a browser, where you open a new tab when you want to go
to a new site, but not in the context of a programmer's editor that
has a folder of files open and only opens files from that list in new
tabs. I'd change Cmd+T to work like in TextMate, and move "open new
blank tab" action to a different shortcut, if not remove it
One thing I ran into was if I closed the last tab I lost my sidebar session. It would be nice to add a warning about closing the last tab.
On Dec 29, 2010, at 2:28 PM, Gordon Fontenot wrote:
> I think that the new-tab feature is useful too, I just don't think
> it's as useful as often as the "open quickly" command.
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Pascal <pak...@me.com> wrote:
> Dr. Pascal LECLERC
> C.H.P. Claude Galien
> 20, route de Boussy
> 91480 Quincy sous Sénart
> 01 69 39 91 16
> 06 12 63 83 38
Also for creating new files perhaps a more explicit input should be
supplied, just hitting return could cause new files to be created when
the user makes a spelling error so perhaps use ⌘↩ instead?
Rhys Powell AKA _frog
I gotta admit, I didn't really see the need to mess with tabs in Kod, but you do bring up some good points. And so does Stephen. I mean, if we want Kod to really make a splash, maybe we should step back and take a look at what we're simply taking for granted.
- Zach LeBar
Sent from my iPhone
All things to show more tabs, either make them devilish small, show a
drop down for all the out-of-bounds tabs (Eclipse, Safari) or even
multi-row tabs (Windows/Visual Studio), are hard to grasp, especially
if the algorithm to place the tabs in the active area is totally not
matching what you are currently looking for.
Hence I think the "vertical" tabs / workspace tree like in Espresso is
something to consider.