[KinkForAll] KFADEN: Lightning Quick Updates

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Rebecca Crane

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Jan 31, 2012, 1:58:36 AM1/31/12
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Hi All!

Quick update since I've been out of touch for the past week or so:

- Fundraising is up and running, much thanks to maymay! Info about how to donate is here: http://kinkforall.pbworks.com/w/page/49161441/KinkForAllDenver#Donate
Please spread the word. Thanks!

- Still no student group sponsorship. We only have 4 days left to find a sponsor, so if you know anyone involved with student groups on Auraria Campus, now is the time to call them!

- We have a press release written and ready to go. I've shared it with Omy and Rachel, so they can share it with their contacts at the Westword. Please let the list know if you have any media contacts.

- A couple of in-person meetings are being organized for both Denver and Boulder. More details posted as soon as I have them.

- Childcare organization is happening in a separate Google Doc. Contact Laura Murray or Siren Sage if you'd like to be involved with that.

- I talked KFADEN up at the Boulder Poly Meeting tonight and heard lots of ideas for sessions: Gender Diversity Panel; Ask a Poly Person; Sexuality in the Pre-Christian Era; and more. I'm going to bug all these folks to post their ideas on the Wiki and keep talking to everyone I know about KFADEN. People seem excited. :-)

- kinkforall.org seems to be down, but you can still access the wiki via: http://kinkforall.pbworks.com if you need anything from there.

- I'll be working on KFADEN stuff most of the day tomorrow, so that's a good time to get ahold of me via txt or e-mail if you have any questions or want a hand coordinating anything. I'll try and send another update at the end of the day.

Thank you to everyone for all the awesome work you've been doing! I'm so excited by all the suggestions I've heard for presentation topics and by all the people who are talking about coming. I can't wait!

- R

Dakota Raynes

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Jan 31, 2012, 2:47:43 PM1/31/12
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AWESOME!!! I am so glad to hear that so many people have chipped in to get all these elements off the ground, so to speak. The ideas for sessions sound exciting too, especially the one about pre-Christian era sexualities.



- R

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New Mexico State University - Las Cruces

maymay

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Jan 31, 2012, 5:28:16 PM1/31/12
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On Jan 31, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Dakota Raynes wrote:

> AWESOME!!! I am so glad to hear that so many people have chipped in to get all these elements off the ground, so to speak. The ideas for sessions sound exciting too, especially the one about pre-Christian era sexualities.

Seconded! One of the things that I've been doing to encourage people who are expressing interest on the wiki is emailing a few of them privately as they sign up with their email address and letting them know how excited I am about their proposed topics. :)

This is a great way to connect to one another before the event, voice your support for topics you're interested in, and give some people early feedback on which topics they've proposed sound interesting to others, too.

For instance, Eveybird's suggested several different topics,[0] but the one I'm really excited to hear about is the "intersections of sexuality & mental health" one. I'm WAY more interested in that than, for instance, Eveybird's suggested topic of "rape play," which sounds far too BDSM-centric and, to my mind, boring at a KinkForAll. Not to say that won't be a welcome topic, I'm sure lots of folks would find it interesting, but there are SO many places where "rape play" is talked about and far too few where "intersections of sexuality & mental health" are, so I wanted to let Eveybird know how much more the latter piqued my interest.

Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org

EXTERNAL REFERENCES:

[0] http://kinkforall.pbworks.com/w/page/49161441/KinkForAllDenver#KinkForAllDenver—PreregistrationSignup

voyag...@gmail.com

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Jan 31, 2012, 5:52:49 PM1/31/12
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Maybe they could be combined? I know I'd love to go to a session on "rape play as it demonstrates the intersections of sexuality and mental health" ;-)
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone, powered by CREDO Mobile. Occupy The Phone Companies- We are the 99%!

maymay

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Jan 31, 2012, 5:57:37 PM1/31/12
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On Jan 31, 2012, at 2:52 PM, voyag...@gmail.com wrote:

> Maybe they could be combined? I know I'd love to go to a session on "rape play as it demonstrates the intersections of sexuality and mental health" ;-)

Well, clearly, tat's for Eveybird to decide.

I've already voiced my preference for *not* rape play. Like I said, there are far too many places where that's already discussed, and it's a very BDSM-centric thing, which is a common misunderstanding about KinkForAll.[0] Kink is not BDSM. These words are not synonyms and I believe it's actively harmful to conflate the two terms,[1] and frankly I would personally like to see less BDSM-centrism at KinkForAll, period.[2]

Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org

EXTERNAL REFERENCES:

[0] http://followsthesun.com/defining-kink-kinkforall-boston-and-beyond/
[1] http://maybemaimed.com/2010/10/05/honor-thy-language-kinky-is-an-adjective-not-an-activity/
[2] http://maybemaimed.com/2009/05/03/bdsm-versus-kink-nobody-but-your-sex-partner-cares-how-you-fuck/

Benjamin Kowalski

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Jan 31, 2012, 6:45:33 PM1/31/12
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Hey, voyager: "rape play as it demonstrates the intersections of sexuality and mental health"?  I'm really hoping the implication here was accidental.

Also, maymay, I guess I'd been assuming that what you meant by "BDSM-centrism" was the harmful attitude that there are two kinds of people, the ones in "the Scene" (ugh) and "vanillas" (also ugh), and the assumption that it's the former who will be centered at this event.  But it sounds like you also mean that you'd straight up like to see fewer BDSM-related topics; am I reading you correctly?

--Ben

On Jan 31, 2012 3:57 PM, "maymay" <bitethea...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 31, 2012, at 2:52 PM, voyag...@gmail.com wrote:

> Maybe they could be combined? I know I'...

Well, clearly, tat's for Eveybird to decide.

I've already voiced my preference for *not* rape play. Like I said, there are far too many places where that's already discussed, and it's a very BDSM-centric thing, which is a common misunderstanding about KinkForAll.[0] Kink is not BDSM. These words are not synonyms and I believe it's actively harmful to conflate the two terms,[1] and frankly I would personally like to see less BDSM-centrism at KinkForAll, period.[2]


Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com

Community: http://Kink...

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maymay

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Jan 31, 2012, 7:12:19 PM1/31/12
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On Jan 31, 2012, at 3:45 PM, Benjamin Kowalski wrote:
> Also, maymay, I guess I'd been assuming that what you meant by "BDSM-centrism" was the harmful attitude that there are two kinds of people, the ones in "the Scene" (ugh) and "vanillas" (also ugh), and the assumption that it's the former who will be centered at this event. But it sounds like you also mean that you'd straight up like to see fewer BDSM-related topics; am I reading you correctly?
>
> --Ben

In a word: yes. You are.

WARNING. RANT:

The Scene (ugh) is doing enough (legitimately GOOD) work around elucidating the issues and challenges and benefits of BDSM more generally. There is absolutely no reason why KinkForAll (Denver or elsewhere) needs to do that. If we try to then we'll simply be reinventing a wheel; and a damned problematic one,[0] at that! And I am not interested in supporting the reinvention of wheels. ;)

That's why I'm so excited by Eveybird's (as an example, although there are others) topic suggestion on the wiki. I'd even remove the "…and kink" part of that intersectional title, "Sexuality & Mental Health (and kink)", because my knee-jerk presumption is that the "and kink" part was simply there to make it sound more relevant to BDSM, when that is, in fact, totally unnecessary here. (But that's obviously not my place; it's Eveybird's session and they can do with it what they like!)

This is also why I'm so much more interested in Isaac's "Designer Flesh: Body Mod as Beauty" topic proposal[1] over Isaac's very stereotypical-sounding (and thus worse-than-boring, to me) "non-sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance," as an example.

This is not to say topics like "rape play" or "non-sensual sadism" aren't welcome at KinkForAll, but I, for one, am actively invested in discouraging that kind of topic for the aforementioned reasons, and then some, and I'm already taking actions I feel would make it less likely that people who intend to do things like piercing demos and other stereotypical stuff I see all over the place can grok that KinkForAll is an environment that was at least intended (if not successfully executed as) to be a space for other things. For example, when I participate in KFADEN, if I see an open session slot and the only full slots are stereotypical-sounding sessions, I'm going to do a hot-talk on something totally different just to give people the opportunity to make their own choice about what they want to participate in, and so that I can use the unused space for my own purposes.

And I encourage others to do this for their own interests, too. That's *the point* of an event like this.

The fact that this is a consistent issue and one I've been having conversations about *for years* is also why I am so adamant about stressing the de-eroticized nature of KinkForAll events. I am, bluntly, sick and tired of the way sexuality events and the communities that support them tend to eroticize goddamn fucking everything all the goddamn fucking time, because I see that, too, as actively harmful.[2]

*Deep breathe.*

END RANT.

Sorry if that sounded unduly brusque. These frustrations are not just a pet peeve. Working to change these perceptions is literally what keeps me alive. Hence the emotional overtones in my writing.

FWIW, I'm really excited about KFADEN because it sounds like a lot of the interest is coming from people who have so an incredibly broad range of knowledge and that is a very good sign for making magic happen. By way of analogy, I'm far more interested in what happens when a mathematician, a social worker, and a painter tried tackling a problem than what would happen if three business owners tried tackling the same problem, because the former team has more potential for magic, while the latter team is infinitely more likely to reinvent wheels.

Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com

Community: http://KinkForAll.org

EXTERNAL REFERENCES:

[0] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/16036372049/the-bdsm-scenes-whiteness-is-classism-at-work
[1] https://twitter.com/maymaym/status/162394060206768129
[2] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/10422252352/omnipresent-eroticization-can-suck-my-big

James Sheldon

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Jan 31, 2012, 8:03:45 PM1/31/12
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On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Benjamin Kowalski
<benjamin....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey, voyager: "rape play as it demonstrates the intersections of sexuality
> and mental health"?  I'm really hoping the implication here was accidental.

I was thinking like debunking the myths that people who do this kind
of play are mentally disturbed...? It didn't really quite come out
right.

> To post to this group, send email to kinkf...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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> For more options, visit this group at
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> Visit and contribute to the KinkForAll wiki at
> http://wiki.KinkForAll.org

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@ james sheldon
@ http://www.jamessheldon.com
@ "those who fail to reread
@ are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
@ -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
@ voyag...@gmail.com
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Benjamin Kowalski

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Feb 1, 2012, 11:17:19 AM2/1/12
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maymay, you wrote: "The Scene (ugh) is doing enough (legitimately GOOD) work..."  Oh, the hell it is.  You seem to be saying that these particular BDSM-related talks don't need to happen at KFA because they could happen instead in mainstream BDSM venues, but I think you're being too optimistic there.  Let use Isaac as an example, since I'm fairly sure he won't mind... he'd proposed talking about how phrases like "sensual dominance" are deployed in the mainstream Scene, and especially in its attempts at education/outreach, in a way that centers middle-class hetero male-dom couples and renders everyone else (even more) invisible.  I really, honestly don't think this would fly in a mainstream BDSM conference, and not only because that culture is prone to gatekeeping and privilege-blindness and so forth, but also because the conventional class/conference model lends itself more, by its very economic structure, to topics that are flashy and sexy and have broad appeal.

I'm hesitant to say too much about Eveybird's topics, since I'm not sure how she feels about being held up as an example.  But I guess I will say that every *other* presentation on rape play I've come across, in more conventional conference or workshop settings, has been thoroughly shaped by this same pressure to be sexified and pandering, and it sounds like Eveybird is paying a lot of attention to the ways in which the unconventional format of KFA creates space to have different (and, to me, more interesting) kinds of conversations.

So, if your vision for KFADEN is that these kinds of conversations are de-emphasized, I respect that and give it a lot of weight.  But I don't think they're "stereotyped" conversations that are already happening in the mainstream BDSM scene.  On the contrary, I think the only places they *can* happen are in KFA or some other space that looks like it (grassroots, accessible, cross-pollination among communities, etc etc).

Warmly,
Ben

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maymay

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Feb 1, 2012, 1:32:40 PM2/1/12
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On Feb 1, 2012, at 8:17 AM, Benjamin Kowalski wrote:

> maymay, you wrote: "The Scene (ugh) is doing enough (legitimately GOOD) work..." Oh, the hell it is.

All right, you caught me. :) I was being "nice." I don't think The Scene is doing "good work," I think it's awful and I'm so fed up with it I'm almost ready to burn it down.[0]

> You seem to be saying that these particular BDSM-related talks don't need to happen at KFA because they could happen instead in mainstream BDSM venues, but I think you're being too optimistic there. Let use Isaac as an example, since I'm fairly sure he won't mind... he'd proposed talking about how phrases like "sensual dominance" are deployed in the mainstream Scene, and especially in its attempts at education/outreach, in a way that centers middle-class hetero male-dom couples and renders everyone else (even more) invisible. I really, honestly don't think this would fly in a mainstream BDSM conference, and not only because that culture is prone to gatekeeping and privilege-blindness and so forth, but also because the conventional class/conference model lends itself more, by its very economic structure, to topics that are flashy and sexy and have broad appeal.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, are we both talking about this row in the sign up table on the Wiki?[1]

> 11. Isaac i.w....@gmail.com Unorganize(tea service, water pitchers, electrical cords & power strips), attend, maybe present Kink as worship/spirituality(?), "non-sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance" (?), Designer Flesh: Body Mod as Beauty

If so, then you have information about Isaac's intentions that I do not. Maybe you know Isaac personally? I do not.

If what's behind the words "non-sensual sadism vs sensual dominance" is an attempt to inspire conversation about the piss-poor way the BDSM Scene does education and outreach while confronting its privilege-blindness, as you describe, then I think you're totally right: that wouldn't fly in a mainstream BDSM Scene conference. Moreover, like you, I'd also personally encourage that kind of discussion happening at a KinkForAll, or anywhere else for that matter. (It actually reminds me of prior KinkForAll sessions such as "Yellow Fever: Being an Asian Woman in the West"[2] at KFANYC2 and "The Dangers of Misrepresentation" from KFAPVD[3] which, IIRC, were both run by people who identified as submissive women and touched on challenges they face in mainstream BDSM Scene culture that I've rarely heard articulated in The Scene's spaces for exactly the reasons you talk about, Ben.)

But a much-needed and relatively subversive topic was not what I "heard" Isaac going for when I read the words "non-sensual sadism vs. sensual dominance," though, so your understanding of what he'd proposed is vastly different from mine.

For someone like me (and I'd be willing to wager that for many people who are trying to discern what KFADEN is going to be like) getting to your interpretation would require a LOT of reading between the lines. While I'm obviously hyper-vigilant about BDSM Scene bullshit that I'm ready to brace against it whenever I see it, mainstream BDSM Scene-State members[4] wouldn't be bracing, they'd be reading something like Isaac's topic and if their interpretation is anything close to mine, they're likely thinking, "Oh yay, another presentation about styles of sadism and dominance that I can go to and pick up more tips and tricks about how to play with my new toys."

In other words, all these topics that sound "stereotypically BDSM-related" to me remind me of the kind of prior KinkForAll sessions I've been wanting to see less and less of, such as "Loving Violence: The Power of Punching" at KFANYC2,[5] which sounds like it could be a really good opener to talk about the way BDSM *is* violence even though the BDSM Scene denies that fact,[6] or it could've been a way to talk about symbology of violence and why so many activist symbols use fists in the air to signify resistance, or it could've been a way to talk about a ton of fascinating totally awesome topics.

But instead it was yet another presentation about play punching presented by one person who likes to do it[7] to a room full of other people who already know what it is and one person named Sam who was so left out of the loop, lacking BDSM Scene context and experience, that he wrote a blog post about how confused it all made him and how he didn't feel comfortable asking anyone in the session for further clarifications because of how cliquey and unapproachably nerdy it all felt to him.[8] (And I'm glad he wrote that, although his website seems down at the moment.)

> I'm hesitant to say too much about Eveybird's topics, since I'm not sure how she feels about being held up as an example. But I guess I will say that every *other* presentation on rape play I've come across, in more conventional conference or workshop settings, has been thoroughly shaped by this same pressure to be sexified and pandering, and it sounds like Eveybird is paying a lot of attention to the ways in which the unconventional format of KFA creates space to have different (and, to me, more interesting) kinds of conversations.

I don't know Eveybird and obviously don't know her intentions. That said, I've never been to a session whose topic was presented as "rape play" that I liked. My criteria for "liking" sessions is explained, somewhat, above. That's part of my past experience that I hope makes clear why I'm so much more interested in hearing about "Sexuality and Mental Health" than "rape play" from Eveybird, and why I jump at every opportunity to encourage those kinds of less mainstream, more intersectional topics whenever I can.

But, obviously, people are going to come and do what they like. I'm just trying to stack the deck against the mainstream BDSM Scene garbage. :)

> So, if your vision for KFADEN is that these kinds of conversations are de-emphasized, I respect that and give it a lot of weight. But I don't think they're "stereotyped" conversations that are already happening in the mainstream BDSM scene. On the contrary, I think the only places they *can* happen are in KFA or some other space that looks like it (grassroots, accessible, cross-pollination among communities, etc etc).
>
> Warmly,
> Ben

Point. :) We probably have different understandings of what these particular topic suggestions are suggesting. And I hope it goes without saying that my vision needn't be your vision, of course.

To sum up: I'm equally invested in understanding the perlocutionary effects of having a list of topics dominated by things like "Temporary body mod/art (would need volunteer bodies willing to be stapled/sutured/pierced)" as I am in discouraging the presence of privilege-denying mainstream BDSM Scene bullshit. Because when the words "non-sensual sadism vs sensual dominance" appear in isolation, they are less likely to be interpreted by people who are trying to discern what KFADEN is going to be like the way I interpreted them than they are when those words appear next to a topic suggestion that reads "Temporary body mod/art (would need volunteer bodies willing to be stapled/sutured/pierced)."

I hope that makes sense. :\

Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org

EXTERNAL REFERENCES:

[0] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/07/16/on-letting-the-world-burn/
[1] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllDenver
[2] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/NewYorkCity2Schedule
[3] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllProvidenceSchedule
[4] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/10/05/re-caste-ing-alternative-sexuality-a-class-analysis-of-social-status-in-the-bdsm-scene-arse-elektronika-2011-screw-the-system/
[5] http://wiki.kinkforall.org/KinkForAllNewYorkCity2Schedule
[6] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/4714863852/help-me-desimplify-deconstruct-rape-and-sex
[7] http://justalovetap.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/loving-violence-the-power-of-punching/
[8] http://www.ivyleaguepornographer.com/archives/715

Heliotrope

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Feb 1, 2012, 2:20:10 PM2/1/12
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Hey All,

This is an extremely neat conversation! I want it to have room to continue, and I am SO pleased to see the KFA list becoming a space to think through these ideas.

They are, however, not what you'd call "Lightning Quick," at this point. As somebody not in the convo, I don't know what to call it or where to move it. Just that I want it to keep going, with a subject line all it's own.

Seriously Wishing I could Make it to Denver,
Emms

Benjamin Kowalski

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Feb 1, 2012, 2:33:33 PM2/1/12
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Yeah, good call on new thread.  maymay, just a terse response right now -- yes, I have secret information about Isaac's intentions, having struck up a conversation with him off-list about what he thought he might talk about.  You make a really good point about a list of topics being a crucial tool for folks who are "trying to discern what KFADEN is going to be like".  With that in mind, maybe that information shouldn't be tucked away solely in a column at the end of the sign up table?  Maybe as people start to flesh out their topics, we should put together a separate list that has room for short expository blurbs?  I mean, yeah, a lot of what's on the sign up chart (my entry included) is indeed cryptic or misleading, due at least in part to space constraints.  Thoughts?
Ben

Isaac

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Feb 1, 2012, 2:47:48 PM2/1/12
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Ok, I'm getting caught up a bit here, and while I'm not quite a total
stranger to Google Groups, I'm still fairly newbish, so please pardon
my dust.

Ben and I do know each personally, and we've talked about the
underlying ideas I've had rattling in my head. Frankly, maymay is
absolutely correct, and the title I used as a descriptor: ("non-
sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance") is yawn inspiring and also not
terribly clear. They're terms that I've seen used particularly
locally in the Scene and come directly out of works like Loving
Dominant, SM101 and the pervasive sense of hetero-normative male led
relationships and sexuality that drips off of books like them and
their proponents become identifiable simply by that language. If
anything maymay's reaction to the title shows just how thoroughly
entrenched the ideas of "sensual dominance" are in stereotypical BDSM
culture, and how much they deserve to be challenged. It's not merely a
feminist issue of male vs female dominance, but one that has aspects
of switch, queer, bisexual and trans invisibility behind it. I meant
for the quotes to denote a certain air or irony in using those words,
but alas, using a wiki as a notepad does not lend well to that style
of communication.

I can say that for me personally, BDSM practices have a strong
intersection with my sexuality, and I'll be interested in
presentations and discussions which are BDSM focused or even just
tangentially related. That being said, I'm likely to avoid those that
sound like rehashing of the entry level materials that IMNSHO are
fostering this sense of classism, though as a rabble rouser I'm not
above using the language and mindset that it fosters as a form of
challenging those systems of ideas. The idea of having this concept
of the loving, caring, sexually dominant who is invariably male and
his counterpart the strict, merciless disciplinarian who is simply
sadistic and appears asexual or uncaring, with no room for those who
engage otherwise is one that is no less close to me and I enjoy
challenging it on a personal level and when possible with the language
that's developed to reinforce it. It leaves little room for those of
us who experience power exchanges more fluidly, or who play outside
that very small but very visible box, and that very thinking ends up
relegating women to either sex object and "toys" or sex workers for
men who are too weak/afraid/etc to embace the "loving dominant" within
them. I'd be happy beyond belief, by the way, to have suggestions on
a title for a talk that ran along those lines.

Additionally, there are times when I incorporate religious themes into
my play, both as an act of worship and an act of sacrilege. It's
roots are all over the place and it's been done for ages and ages.
Too often now, I see that expression of 'play' relegated to 'energy
work' or focused on as merely an eroticization of authority and the
like. Expressing sacred sexuality through kinky mediums is something
that I think is often over looked, or under utilized even by those who
find the need for genuine worship. I may not be able to speak to all
spiritual frameworks but the goal of something like that presentation
would be to inspire those who're inclined to begin to think of
spiritual expression and sexual expression as things which are not by
necessity discrete. That one can inspire the other, and be used to
enrich them both simultaneously.

As far as designer flesh, that is by far the clearest. This has a
number of expressions, though also overlooked. Our bodies are pretty
malleable. People alter them for beauty, some for their own concept
of beauty. Others chase after someone else's ideal sense of perfect
beauty. Some see themselves as a canvas, and other simply alter their
body to reflect internal identities. Even modification for enhanced
pleasure or sexual practices is possible, or those that alter
themselves in a way that limits or removes their ability to engage in
the more 'vanilla' concept of sex. The limitations here are bounded by
imagination, and the reasons for doing it are nearly as varied. The
fact is that nearly every person sculpts themselves in some way and
it's more a matter of degree. With this class I'm aimed and helping
people become conscious of it, and intentional with it.

Speaking for Denver in my experience, I expect that most of the BDSM
overlap we're likely to see at KFA are likely to be more open to
expressions other than the "stereotypical bullshit" simply because of
the structure of the scene here and the personal involvements. I
expect we may see some faux pas like assuming that kink is really
another term for BDSM, or that communication is just negotiating
better, but by and large I think these will be matters of exposure and
learning and that the educational experience KFA has the potential to
be is key in teaching others about that. There may be a huge push to
be seen as and present yourself as an educator here in Denver in the
BDSM scene as a form of self promotion, but by and large I've seen
more people be open to alternate views here, than any other city I've
participated publicly with.

Isaac

On Feb 1, 11:32 am, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 2012, at 8:17 AM, Benjamin Kowalski wrote:
>
> > maymay, you wrote: "The Scene (ugh) is doing enough (legitimately GOOD) work..."  Oh, the hell it is.
>
> All right, you caught me. :) I was being "nice." I don't think The Scene is doing "good work," I think it's awful and I'm so fed up with it I'm almost ready to burn it down.[0]
>
> > You seem to be saying that these particular BDSM-related talks don't need to happen at KFA because they could happen instead in mainstream BDSM venues, but I think you're being too optimistic there.  Let use Isaac as an example, since I'm fairly sure he won't mind... he'd proposed talking about how phrases like "sensual dominance" are deployed in the mainstream Scene, and especially in its attempts at education/outreach, in a way that centers middle-class hetero male-dom couples and renders everyone else (even more) invisible.  I really, honestly don't think this would fly in a mainstream BDSM conference, and not only because that culture is prone to gatekeeping and privilege-blindness and so forth, but also because the conventional class/conference model lends itself more, by its very economic structure, to topics that are flashy and sexy and have broad appeal.
>
> Just to make sure we're on the same page, are we both talking about this row in the sign up table on the Wiki?[1]
>
> > 11.        Isaac           i.w.fl...@gmail.com      Unorganize(tea service, water pitchers, electrical cords & power strips), attend, maybe present     Kink as worship/spirituality(?), "non-sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance" (?), Designer Flesh: Body Mod as Beauty
> [4]http://maybemaimed.com/2011/10/05/re-caste-ing-alternative-sexuality-...
> [5]http://wiki.kinkforall.org/KinkForAllNewYorkCity2Schedule
> [6]http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/4714863852/help-me-desimplify-decons...
> [7]http://justalovetap.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/loving-violence-the-powe...
> [8]http://www.ivyleaguepornographer.com/archives/715

Dakota Raynes

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Feb 1, 2012, 2:49:33 PM2/1/12
to kinkf...@googlegroups.com
Maybe as people start to flesh out their topics, we should put together a separate list that has room for short expository blurbs? 

Oh! Oh! Oh! I love this idea, Ben! And I would love to have more space for more discussions about topic ideas to support fleshing them out.

Dakota
  

maymay

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Feb 1, 2012, 3:15:33 PM2/1/12
to kinkf...@googlegroups.com
On Feb 1, 2012, at 11:47 AM, Isaac wrote:

> Ok, I'm getting caught up a bit here, and while I'm not quite a total
> stranger to Google Groups, I'm still fairly newbish, so please pardon
> my dust.

Oh, yay, hi Isaac! :)

> Ben and I do know each personally, and we've talked about the
> underlying ideas I've had rattling in my head. Frankly, maymay is
> absolutely correct, and the title I used as a descriptor: ("non-
> sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance") is yawn inspiring and also not
> terribly clear. They're terms that I've seen used particularly
> locally in the Scene and come directly out of works like Loving
> Dominant, SM101 and the pervasive sense of hetero-normative male led
> relationships and sexuality that drips off of books like them and
> their proponents become identifiable simply by that language. If
> anything maymay's reaction to the title shows just how thoroughly
> entrenched the ideas of "sensual dominance" are in stereotypical BDSM
> culture, and how much they deserve to be challenged. It's not merely a
> feminist issue of male vs female dominance, but one that has aspects
> of switch, queer, bisexual and trans invisibility behind it. I meant
> for the quotes to denote a certain air or irony in using those words,
> but alas, using a wiki as a notepad does not lend well to that style
> of communication.
>

> […]

This is really good to hear. Because, *yes, this.*

> I'd be happy beyond belief, by the way, to have suggestions on
> a title for a talk that ran along those lines.

When I fear irony or satire won't come across, which is often and especially likely to be true for sensitive topics like this, I'm simply direct. For instance, I put together a workshop called "Remaking Male Submission" and it's subtitle was intended to clarify any potential misunderstandings: "Confronting Sexism in BDSM".[0]

You might consider the utility of a similar pattern. For example: "Unpacking 'Sensual Dominance': The Heteronormativity of Loving Male Dominant versus Uncaring Female Sadist"

If I saw something like that in a topic list, I'd probably have emailed you directly with butterflies in my stomach. :)

> Speaking for Denver in my experience, I expect that most of the BDSM
> overlap we're likely to see at KFA are likely to be more open to
> expressions other than the "stereotypical bullshit" simply because of
> the structure of the scene here and the personal involvements. I
> expect we may see some faux pas like assuming that kink is really
> another term for BDSM, or that communication is just negotiating
> better, but by and large I think these will be matters of exposure and
> learning and that the educational experience KFA has the potential to
> be is key in teaching others about that. There may be a huge push to
> be seen as and present yourself as an educator here in Denver in the
> BDSM scene as a form of self promotion, but by and large I've seen
> more people be open to alternate views here, than any other city I've
> participated publicly with.

This is also really good to hear. I've never been to Boulder or Denver, and I'm very curious to see in what ways it's different from other regions of the world I've been to and heard about, and in what ways it's not. :)

Anyway, it's possible continuing this discussion would be easier to follow if we moved it to the new thread Emma suggested.[1]

Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org

EXTERNAL REFERENCES:

[0] http://maybemaimed.com/seminars/#remaking-male-submission
[1] https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/71290eb929264fb3

Rebecca Crane

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Feb 1, 2012, 3:18:18 PM2/1/12
to kinkf...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:32 AM, maymay <bitethea...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 1, 2012, at 8:17 AM, Benjamin Kowalski wrote:

Just to make sure we're on the same page, are we both talking about this row in the sign up table on the Wiki?[1]

> 11.   Isaac           i.w....@gmail.com     Unorganize(tea service, water pitchers, electrical cords & power strips), attend, maybe present         Kink as worship/spirituality(?), "non-sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance" (?), Designer Flesh: Body Mod as Beauty

If so, then you have information about Isaac's intentions that I do not. Maybe you know Isaac personally? I do not.

So, first of all, I feel like it's important to point out that Ben does know Isaac. I believe he does know Evey. And Saskia, and Heather, who are the only other BDSM folks currently on that list. My point is not that people should be expected to read between the lines. My point is that the only people in the BDSM community who are currently pre-registered for KFADEN are, by and large, either personal friends of Ben's or mine. And this is, I think, largely because KFADEN isn't currently even on the mainstream Denver BDSM scene's radar - by design; KFADEN didn't come out of the BDSM scene - mainstream or otherwise, isn't being unorganized by BDSM'ers, and isn't even being actively "advertised" to the BDSM community. Not nearly as much as it's being advertised to, say, the poly community or the queer community. I do think this is a salient point in terms of who is most likely to be coming across the wiki and reading/interpreting the list of presentation topics.

I could be entirely wrong about this but, at least for the time being, I feel like people from the BDSM community here have to already be somewhat "on the level" to even know that KFADEN is happening - and my sense is that the community is small enough that people who can parse the stereotypical possibilities behind something like "sensual dominance" or "rape play" will also be reading those presentation topics in context of what they know about the presenters.

I personally read Isaac's topic and thought "What does that even mean? Okay, whatever," and moved on to something I was more interested in. Meanwhile, I actually did a little bit of research on Evey because, while I'm absolutely uninterested in (and, in fact, would probably be pretty triggered by) a "sexy and pandering" how-to discussion of rape play, I find discussions of rape play/fantasies/etc., in a more broad, intersectional, feminist context - and, particularly, public ownership by women of the fact that they eroticize rape and discussion of how they psychologically navigate that as women living in a rape culture - extremely empowering and important. I can't tell you the number of private conversations I've had in my life with countless women from all manner of backgrounds and ages and amounts and types of sexual experience and political consciousness, all struggling over how stressed out and confused and scared they/we are by our erotic relationship(s) to non-consent - and how hard it is for most women to feel safe voicing or processing that confusion. A session like that would be so in line, to me, with what I ideally hope KFADEN might be that I might even be willing to run it if nobody else does. And I don't know which one of these (or what else) Evey was intending but I was curious. Which is why I Googled her, and read some of her blog, and stalked her on Fetlife a little, to get a bit more context. Maybe I'm totally unique in this regard e.g. that if something seems confusing to me I'll research it; but I don't think I am. At least not among people who are currently looking at the KFADEN wiki page.

To sum up: I'm equally invested in understanding the perlocutionary effects of having a list of topics dominated by things like "Temporary body mod/art (would need volunteer bodies willing to be stapled/sutured/pierced)" as I am in discouraging the presence of privilege-denying mainstream BDSM Scene bullshit. Because when the words "non-sensual sadism vs sensual dominance" appear in isolation, they are less likely to be interpreted by people who are trying to discern what KFADEN is going to be like the way I interpreted them than they are when those words appear next to a topic suggestion that reads "Temporary body mod/art (would need volunteer bodies willing to be stapled/sutured/pierced)."

I hope that makes sense. :\

It does. And what you're saying here is still a very good point - especially because, as we begin promoting far and wide, we'll start getting more views from people who we can't chat with one-on-one. So, comparing all our varying interpretations of both the wiki and KFADEN aside (which, of course, there will a plethora of), I want to suggest a few possible practical solutions:

1. Since the most blatantly not-in-the-spirit-of-KinkForAll entry is Saskia's and it's already been agreed off-list that she's going to do something else, perhaps we could ask her to edit that entry - or maybe edit it for her; I'm not sure what the ethics of that re: transparency require.

2. The trend seems to be for people who are interested in KFADEN but not exactly sure what they're going to talk about to just post some vague off-the-cuff possibilities, but these are always going to be open to misinterpretation because they're so short. There are things on that list that, as a queer person who has been to a zillion queer conferences, sound totally annoying, boring, or potentially triggering to me - but that are probably more-or-less illegible to most people reading the page. So, maybe there's value in asking people to think carefully before they post - or to post ideas to the mailing list first, or something of that nature.

3. Finally (and, perhaps, in opposition to my last two points), I firmly believe that the antidote to bad information is not censorship but MORE information. So, in that vein, I'm going to make a point over the rest of this week of personally calling, e-mailing or otherwise contacting everyone I can think of who's suggested a cool, interesting, unusual,  intersectional-sounding KFADEN topic to me in person, offer to walk them through using the wiki, and encourage them to post their ideas there as well.

This is something that other people can do, too. :-)

(But I do still think we should ask Saskia to remove the piercing play comment. I believe that it was an honest mistake, but maymay's right that it was an honest mistake that continues to have an impact as long as it sits there. I would be happy to be the one to make this contact - and, in fact, it's probably best that it's me, since we don't actually know each other, so the request won't come across as being personal. I'll do that right now. And then I'm going back to work.)

- R

P.S. Hey, neat! Controversy gets people participating on the mailing list! People who are participating on the mailing list: Wanna help us get KFADEN together? ;-)

Rebecca Crane

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Feb 1, 2012, 3:30:35 PM2/1/12
to kinkf...@googlegroups.com
P.S. Hello Isaac! It's nice to meet you. :-) Thanks for the expanding on your thoughts. I'm super excited to see what you end up presenting on.

Isaac

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Feb 1, 2012, 4:28:51 PM2/1/12
to KinkForAll
Nice to "meet" you too. I think we've been orbiting each others
social circles for quite some time. :)

I hope you don't mind but I'd like to offer some constructive
criticism. It might be worth while to put something in a much more
visible place that more clearly outlines exactly what the "spirit of
KFA" is. Based on the material I'd seen both on the pbworks page,
promotional materials (posting on Fetlife, facebook, etc), and from
word of mouth (Siren, Evey, and Ben), I was thinking it was much less
structured topically, even if the format of the day was well
organized. It seemed to me that it was quite open to skill demo and
sharing, live participation as well as open to any expressions of kink
be it BDSM, Leather, fetishistic practices, eroticism, alternative
relationship models, and any other number of alternative sexualities.
The only immediate restriction I saw is the all ages factor. With a
more visible call for what it is that does fit well, removing ideas
that don't will be less of an issue.

I had actually come to this page from the Facebook event, and at a
quick glance I see a number of other people (who aren't on the signup
sheet) who have varying degrees of BDSM experience and exposure, and
given the degree of overlap between poly relationships and sex
positivism in many facets of the local 'scene' I wouldn't be surprised
if many attendees ended up being some flavor BDSM folks. I mean, the
discrepancy between the dozen or so on the check in sheet and the 50
on the fb page is pretty drastic, which ties back into the more
visible communication point.
> ...
>
> read more »

Evey

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Feb 1, 2012, 4:31:41 PM2/1/12
to KinkForAll
Oh hey, I figured out how to actually use google groups! It was very
frustrating reading so many updates every day and not quite knowing
how to respond. I actually read part of this thread this morning
before being wisked off into a work-related purgatory. Which is just
to say I'm sorry for not being able to reply sooner.

I think most of what I wanted to address has already been said by
voices I oft regard as much more eloquent than my own. But
essentially, I think it may have been a lot of misunderstanding
(possibly even on my part). At first read at 7:30am I felt the
discussion was headed in a direction that was very exclusionary. I no
longer feel that way after reading the further discussion that took
place this morning. I will say that Ben and Isaac have fairly good
reads on my intentions (which I did not communicate on the wiki
clearly at all) due to our friendships. As far as some of the
questions that were posed my direction (or that I at least feel the
need to expand upon), I'm headed over to the new thread specifically
for hashing out topics.

-Evey

Evey

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Feb 1, 2012, 5:44:40 PM2/1/12
to KinkForAll
Oh hey, I figured out how to actually use google groups! It was very
frustrating reading so many updates every day and not quite knowing
how to respond. I actually read part of this thread this morning
before being wisked off into work-related purgatory. Which is just to
say I'm sorry for not being able to reply sooner.

I think most of what I wanted to address has already been said by
voices I oft regard as much more eloquent than my own. When I first
read this at 7:30am, I felt the discussion was headed in a direction
that was very exclusionary. I no longer feel that way after reading
the discussions that followed.

A break down of my topic ideas (in an effort to answer questions from
above):

1. "Long term impacts of consensual non-consent/take-downs/rape play"
I recently left a 2 year long rape play dynamic. It has left a
profound impact on my views of rape play and how the kink community in
particular addresses education in regards to rape play, non-con, take-
downs, and any other types of play or dynamics that utilize the
element of force. I poured over my notes from previous rape play
classes and came to realize that "what the hell do we do after it's
over" is not something addressed by mainstream kink. My intent was to
discuss what happened and bring light to something I feel is missing
when these types of fantasies are discussed.

2. "Rape Play"
I haven't had a good feel on what angle of the subject that people
attending may want to discuss, however I wanted to put myself out
there as someone who has a couple years of experience in the matter.
Rebecca hit it pretty much on the head- I'm a woman who has
participated actively in rape fantasies as a "bottom" with multiple
partners and wants to share the knowledge I've accumulated over the
years. Beyond the psychological impacts I mention above, there are
many factors that aren't covered at the large scale BDSM conferences
and even local events such as- How to effectively incorporate
different "flavors" of rape, how to leverage realism, and thoughts on
aftercare and processing are among those. I had hoped to create a more
welcoming environment for those interested in the subject to be able
to learn and ask questions from someone a little less dominant than
others out there teaching on the same subject. Also, totally open to
suggestion on this one.

3. "Establishing personal "Non-negotiables""
By non-negotiables, I don't mean a list of kink or bdsm related hard
limits. Rather, what the idea of spending some time being
introspective and really determining what your needs and boundaries
are when it comes to relationships. It's so easy to fall prey to "NRE"
and lust and forget about the reality of long term compatibility when
we first meet potential partners. Creating a list of personal "non-
negotiables" is an activity that has GREATLY impacted my life. The
task was originally assigned to me by a mentor of mine after a series
of relationships that left me drained. I've brought the subject up in
a submissive's discussion group that I co-facilitate and it was very
well received, but really the idea can be utilized by anyone. If
you're familiar with CunningMinx's "User Manuel", it's somewhat
similar.

4. "Intersections of Kink, Sexuality, Community and Mental Health"
I went to a conference in Minnesota this last fall where they had put
together a panel of mental health professionals to discuss managing
varying facets of mental health while being a participating member of
the kink/bdsm community. The panel started with audience members going
around and introducing themselves and why they had come to the
discussion. What ended up happening was several members of their local
community coming to the panel with the aim of finding out "how to keep
the crazies out of their spaces." There are presenters and spaces that
are making progress in creating more welcoming environemnts for those
with physical disabilities, but mental health disorders can at times
become "invisible" and our language and actions as a community (and it
this i mean ALL communities- kinky, queer, poly, sex-positive,
swingers, etc) can be incredibly divisive. I don't have much
educational experience in psychology beyond a handful of child
development undergrad courses, however I am a queer, poly, kinky woman
who has lived with panic and anxiety disorder for the entirety of my
adult life. There are challenges in balancing mental health issues
with partners, play partners, and the community at large. I'm really
interested in starting a positive discussion on how we can be better
advocates for inclusivity and awareness with regards to mental health
in our own sexuality as well as whichever community we call home.

Hope that gives a better idea of what I was getting at. Also- I suck
with words sometimes. If anyone has recommendations on more suitable
working titles I'm all ears!

-Evey

Rebecca Crane

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Feb 1, 2012, 6:00:16 PM2/1/12
to kinkf...@googlegroups.com
Hi Evey :)

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Evey <voyeuro...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
2. "Rape Play"

Rebecca hit it pretty much on the head- I'm a woman who has
participated actively in rape fantasies as a "bottom" with multiple
partners and wants to share the knowledge I've accumulated over the
years. [...] I had hoped to create a more

welcoming environment for those interested in the subject to be able
to learn and ask questions from someone a little less dominant than
others out there teaching on the same subject. Also, totally open to
suggestion on this one.

So, it occurs to me that the conversations I mentioned in the previous thread...they've rarely happened in my life without involving one or more people crying. I don't think the 20 minute format, or even the most welcoming potential KFADEN structure, are set up to facilitate the sort of...almost support-groupesque space I'd been envisioning for a conversation like that. But I feel like what you are offering here is really valuable nonetheless, if for no other reason than because you're offering to make yourself vulnerable around something that is scary for so many people. Have you considered maybe doing it in a sort of...Q&A format where people can ask you about the parts of your experiences that seem salient to them? I don't know. Just a thought.

4. "Intersections of Kink, Sexuality, Community and Mental Health"
I went to a conference in Minnesota this last fall where they had put
together a panel of mental health professionals to discuss managing
varying facets of mental health while being a participating member of
the kink/bdsm community. The panel started with audience members going
around and introducing themselves and why they had come to the
discussion. What ended up happening was several members of their local
community coming to the panel with the aim of finding out "how to keep
the crazies out of their spaces." There are presenters and spaces that
are making progress in creating more welcoming environemnts for those
with physical disabilities, but mental health disorders can at times
become "invisible" and our language and actions as a community (and it
this i mean ALL communities- kinky, queer, poly, sex-positive,
swingers, etc) can be incredibly divisive. I don't have much
educational experience in psychology beyond a handful of child
development undergrad courses, however I am a queer, poly, kinky woman
who has lived with panic and anxiety disorder for the entirety of my
adult life. There are challenges in balancing mental health issues
with partners, play partners, and the community at large. I'm really
interested in starting a positive discussion on how we can be better
advocates for inclusivity and awareness with regards to mental health
in our own sexuality as well as whichever community we call home.

I would be way, way, way into attending this. There are some folks doing radical mental health support stuff who I'm hoping to talk to about KFADEN this week, and I'm excited to be able to tell them this might be a possible session. :-D
 

Hope that gives a better idea of what I was getting at. Also- I suck
with words sometimes. If anyone has recommendations on more suitable
working titles I'm all ears!

-Evey

maymay

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Feb 1, 2012, 8:54:02 PM2/1/12
to kinkf...@googlegroups.com
Hi Evey! :)

On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Evey wrote:

> I think most of what I wanted to address has already been said by

> voices I oft regard as much more eloquent than my own. […]


>
> A break down of my topic ideas (in an effort to answer questions from
> above):

>
> 1. "Long term impacts of consensual non-consent/take-downs/rape play"

> […]
>
> 2. "Rape Play"
> […]
>
> 3. "Establishing personal "Non-negotiables""
> […]


>
> If
> you're familiar with CunningMinx's "User Manuel", it's somewhat
> similar.

Yeah. :) That's similar, also, to my "maymay manual,"[0] but about a different subject.

> 4. "Intersections of Kink, Sexuality, Community and Mental Health"
>

> […]


>
> Hope that gives a better idea of what I was getting at. Also- I suck
> with words sometimes. If anyone has recommendations on more suitable
> working titles I'm all ears!
>
> -Evey


I just wanna say that this all *does* give me a much clearer picture of where you're coming from, and I'm really interested in getting a chance to come to one of the sessions you lead. Also, while you have twice said in not so many words that you are not so confident in your ability to use words, I think you are underestimating yourself. This email was really explanatory and, all-around, just great. :)

For personal reasons, I will probably avoid the "long term impacts of consensual non-consent" and "rape play" presentations if you end up doing those, but I want you to know that I'm genuinely really glad to hear that you, as a "bottom," are taking it upon yourself to talk about those issues from a bottom's/submissive's perspective in a deep way.

There is only one other person who is actively doing the kind of "building resources for bottoms" like this, and that person is in Chicago. (By the way, if you don't know Rica, I think you two would find a LOT of common ground. Check out her website!)[1]

Also, it is personally difficult for me to attend and participate in discussions that are heavily informed by BDSM that are about bottoming/being submissive/etc. when they are lead by submissive women. And I'm sorry because I know that is a personal scar, not your issue, but it's there and I simply haven't got the energy to participate in these sorts of discussions because, as a submissive man, I consistently feel sidelined and reminded that my access to the kinds of experiences I want and that you seem to say that you have a lot of, is too painful to get over right now.[2]

That being said, good luck, no matter what you choose to do! Maybe you and I can have coffee and learn more about one another in a slower-paced, 1-on-1 kind of setting. :) In fact, one of the reasons KinkForAll was designed as a fast-paced, can't-see-it-all kind of event is to encourage people to connect *AFTER* the event is over. And I hope it works out that way for us, and other participants, as well.

Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org

EXTERNAL REFERENCES:

[0] http://status.maymay.net/tag/maymaymanual
[1] http://fromthebottom.org/
[2] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/12/04/on-being-bondage-furniture/

maymay

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Feb 1, 2012, 8:55:30 PM2/1/12
to kinkf...@googlegroups.com
On Feb 1, 2012, at 3:00 PM, Rebecca Crane wrote:

> I don't think the 20 minute format, or even the most welcoming potential KFADEN structure, are set up to facilitate the sort of...almost support-groupesque space I'd been envisioning for a conversation like that. But I feel like what you are offering here is really valuable nonetheless, if for no other reason than because you're offering to make yourself vulnerable around something that is scary for so many people. Have you considered maybe doing it in a sort of...Q&A format where people can ask you about the parts of your experiences that seem salient to them? I don't know. Just a thought.

For success case replication, take a look at the Student Sexuality Groups Unpanel that happened at KinkForAll Providence:

Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykGeziE58N4

Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnnYrMgwIZA

An "unpanel" like this is a great way to turn a topic into a Q&A and have it all fit within 20 minutes.

Rebecca Crane

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Feb 2, 2012, 1:52:41 AM2/2/12
to kinkf...@googlegroups.com
Oh. Wow. That's neat. I'm veering this off of the "rape play" topic, because I'm not as interested in that as I am in the "commonness of rape fantasies" topic - but I'm imagining a situation in which a presenter might ask for people who 1. have ever had erotic fantasies that involve non-consensual sex and 2. are willing to talk about it on video, and then let whoever's left in the audience ask them questions... It would probably be very intense, and could be pretty empowering, and then I immediately think of several different ways that could go REALLY REALLY badly. (Although, obviously, I have some personal issues around this - which is probably why I'm so stuck on the idea.) I think it would require pretty incredible facilitation. I don't think I personally have the emotional competence to hold that kind of space. But I'm thinking of someone here who might, and I wonder if it's something they'd be interested in. Hm.

That being said, the 'Unpanel' idea in general is way cool! I love the spontaneity of it! Now I'm all excited thinking of other things we might do with that format...

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