Anyone shed some light on this?

[Louis Landry]

So the following was just brought to my attention:

http://www.joomstew.com/10-minutes-truth/pirate-ship

Please someone tell me this is a misunderstanding that can be cleaned up.  

- Louis
--
Development Coordinator
Joomla! ... because open source matters.
http://www.joomla.org

[Brad Baker]

A few days ago, after I found out Robert was now admin on ATAAW I send him and email, trying to politely tell him that his forum admin access, as well as access to the sandbox and forum db would not be allowed while he permitted someone like Ivo and his past actions to be condoned on that site. I asked him to contact me so we could talk more if needed. No reply was received. I never threatened to ban Robert, at all. 

History:

Robert was working with me, as he had accepted my offer to help out with forum templating and upgrades. He already had full access to the sandbox, but we were just waiting on getting SVN etc setup correctly.

I'm happy to be wronged in this case, and apologise if needed, but it's pretty rough him not replying to my email or asking from more information and just going public like this.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla Leadership" group.
To post to this group, send email to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-leaders...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-leadership?hl=en.

-----

Brad Baker

Twitter @xyzulu
The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org

[Ian MacLennan]

Seems a little extreme, no?

Ian

[Brad Baker]

My actions, or Roberts?

[Ian MacLennan]

Well, it isn't like he is actively condoning Ivo.  He merely happens to admin a community site that Ivo is a part of.  How does that affect us?

Ian

[Brad Baker]

It doesn't affect us. Just me on a personal level doesn't want to work with Robert or anyone else who condones Ivo's filth that he posted about the women associated with Joomla as well as other individuals he named.

Perhaps I was too honest in saying why I was turning down Roberts offer to help, you think?

[Brad Baker]

If anyone wants to read what Ivo wrote, I am happy to share it with them. But it's filth.. 

[Ian MacLennan]

I guess I don't really see this as condoning Ivo.  Robert happened to inherit a site that has a policy that nobody gets banned.  I highly doubt that if you sent a copy of what Ivo wrote (yes, I know full well what he wrote and understand how nasty it was) that Robert would say he condoned it.

Ian

[Louis Landry]

Brad,

Thanks for the explanation.  I would appreciate it if you could just share the Ivo stuff on list so that we can just have this out once and for all.  It isn't like anything he would have written was meant to be private anyway ... who are we protecting?

As for the rest.  I do find it unfortunate that Robert didn't get back to you directly, and I think that if you in any way might have come off as telling him that he was no longer welcome in the project it may be worth clarifying that and confirming that isn't the intention.

If you don't want to work with him on those specific initiatives that is, in my mind, a separate issue and your prerogative.  There are certain levels of participation in the project that obviously require more trust than others.  Having direct access to databases on our servers is something I think anyone would agree does require more trust than an average community member.

All that being said, I guess from my end I would say it is worth clarifying your position to Robert and apologizing for the misunderstandings there.  Beyond that all we can do is move on.

- Louis

[Brad Baker]

For expecting Robert to have seen this material already, I made a mistake, and I'm sorry about that, to Robert especially.

I did ask him to contact me if he wanted to see the material, and fully expected to talk more to him in private as we had been doing so over the past few weeks.

I will contact Robert, perhaps phone him and personally apologise and thank him once again for his offers to help.

As for the Ivo stuff, I don't keep a copy myself as it's such filth, however, I requested a copy from someone who does, and am happy to share it here on this list provided no one has any objections.

[Brad Baker]

I agree I may not have handled this as well as I could have. For the
public record, I was not trying to exclude Robert from participating
as a community member, I just can't work with him in the way we had
planned at such a high level while he condones ivo continued
participation. Amy and wilco as well as Mitch (other admins of that
site) also know the reason I won't participate on that site, being the
same reasons Andrew doesn't either.

If people stopped to look st the people I do 'work' with, many of them
are members of that site, it's only those in positions of
responsibility I feel are accountable for condoning behavior by
allowing people like this knowingly to participate. It excludes
participation for a far larger group than a single person it includes.

It's a shame Robert couldn't have taken offence/been upset etc with me
in private first as I an sure I could have made amends without having
this blow up like this. But, I had no control over that and was given
no opportunity yo make amends.

Still, sadly, there are people still trying to play politics, and now
I feel dragged down to the same level. I'm not referring to Robert
either.

Please let me know if there is anything more any of you feel I need to
go in this situation, apart from my undertaking previously.

Sorry for mistakes in spelling and grammar, mobile at the moment and
flat out.

On 20/02/2010, at 11:07 AM, Andrew Eddie <mamb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 20 February 2010 07:51, Louis Landry <louis....@joomla.org>

> wrote:
>> Brad,
>> Thanks for the explanation. I would appreciate it if you could
>> just share
>> the Ivo stuff on list so that we can just have this out once and
>> for all.
>> It isn't like anything he would have written was meant to be
>> private anyway
>> ... who are we protecting?
>

> Attached is the post that was the last straw (***WARNING***: it
> contains extremely explicit, offensive and violent coarse language -
> this is not appropriate for anyone under the age of 18). Immediately
> preceding this was an incident on the Bug Squad list which was equally
> vulgar and heinous but I don't have a copy of that transcript as I've
> changed laptops. I've also had personal conversations with him that
> were quite disturbing following repeated inappropriate behaviour when
> he was part of the Translation Team talks some time ago now, again for
> being aggressively vulgar to other participants. I believe there are
> numerous other individual cases of a similar nature.
>
> We have certainly had our fair share of difficult people over time,
> but this is the only case that makes me sick to the pit of my stomach.
> This is not your average "we hate the guts of the establishment"
> drivel - in most countries, this would be a crime (and I believe he's
> been reported to the appropriate authorities). Everyone has to make
> there own call of how they deal with this. Brad, I don't think
> excluding people from participating on-property is the right thing to
> do and I don't think you handled that the right way - but I completely
> understand why you felt that way. As for me, I won't participate
> off-property with people that allow him to participate, be that a web
> site or an event.
>
> Regards,
> Andrew Eddie

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Joomla Leadership" group.
> To post to this group, send email to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com
> .
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-leaders...@googlegroups.com
> .
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-leadership?hl=en
> .
>

> <ivos-bad-behaviour.png>

[Louis Landry]

Thanks Andrew, and Brad.

I have posted a comment at that site: http://www.joomstew.com/10-minutes-truth/pirate-ship#comment-13

Brad, hopefully you can have a productive conversation with Robert and it can be cleared up.  I guess at this point that's really the best we can hope for.

From my personal experience I can say that I've been personally attacked by Ivo and horrible things were said about me.  I think that its really bad for people who do things like that to be allowed to continue as a part of the project and community.  It isn't about the individual incident and whom may have forgiven whom.  It is about something like that being out there and other people seeing that and thinking, "why would i want to participate in a group that treats each other that way and it is tolerated".

Moving on...

- Louis

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-leadership?hl=en.

[Brad Baker]

Robert and I have spoken on the phone and apologised for hurt caused. I offered to public apologise, but he was happy with the private apology. What I learn from this.. so so very much is that if someone comes to me about a personal slight they feel has been inflicted on them by Louis (for example) I will first, and before even listening to the issue encourage them, firmly to talk to Louis first.

Further on, it seems had I spoken to Robert, rather than emailing him, it might have been a lot less likely to have blown up like this.

As I have nothing to hide, and am acting alone, without direction from others, I'll leave you with the full unedited solitary personal email I sent to Robert alone that started all this:

Robert, today this was drawn to my attention: http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/profiles/blogs/welcome-robert-vining-all

While I really do want your help, as the admin on that site, as long as Ivo is permitted to participate, I can't with a good conscience allow you to help us in a more 'close' manner in this way.

Recently I posted this: http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-wg-community/browse_thread/thread/cc1b2dd014c3395c

It's different if you were just participating on an external site, in fact, we/me/Joomla has absolutely no right to even comment on what people do on external sites, but as the admin, knowing Ivo's actions (if you don't I can share with you what he wrote) while you allow him to participate, memebrs of our site will not feel safe if you were to be able to have as much control and trust instilled in you were you to help us out as to had offered to.

I hope you understand. I'm not telling you what to do, you are free to do as you please, my primary concern is our Joomla Community.

Any questions, please ask. Happy to talk more to you on skype.

-----

Brad Baker

Twitter @xyzulu
The Joomla Community: community.joomla.org

[Ron Severdia]

It seems that a "project ban" means literally banning from the project
itself. I share Brad's feeling of unease, but I think that it goes too
far when we start putting conditions of this type on public
involvement in the project. It should be "innocent until proven
guilty"--not the other way around.

[Brad Baker]

Point taken. Anything else you feel I need to do about this now?

For the public record, that blog of Ivo's shared in this thread was the oldest and "nicest" one. Since then, there were a number of even more disgusting posts over the next few months made. Surely we don't need to share them as well?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Joomla Leadership" group.
To post to this group, send email to joomla-l...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to joomla-leaders...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-leadership?hl=en.

[Ron Severdia]

My personal opinion is that the screenshots should be shared. They
were on a website that was publicly visible for a long enough period
of time for plenty of people to see them. We're not "outing"
somebody's private conversation. There's no further action to be taken
on them besides the aforementioned project ban and they may help
convince those that are skeptical whether or not the judgement/
decision of the team at the time was the right one. Maybe the fanfare
around them can finally be put to rest.

[Andrew Eddie]

I think the point has been made for the benefit of those that weren't
around (but completeness, they traversed a period from between January
and the end of March last year) and provides enough context. I'd be
pretty uncomfortable about sharing the balance of the material given
the nature of the content.

Regards,
Andrew Eddie
http://www.theartofjoomla.com - the art of becoming a Joomla developer

[Ron Severdia]

Fair enough. Either way, our ultimate goal should be towards closure
on this.

[Andrew Eddie]

Preface: this is a repost of an email previously posted by me. As a
result of feedback received, certainly name(s) in the attached image
have been redacted. Due to limitations in the Google Groups
administration, the original post in its entirety has been deleted
and, in order to maintain the integrity of the public record, this
re-post has been made with the original image modified. Unfortunately
it messes up the historical order of the conversation but that is the
best we can do.

On 20 February 2010 07:51, Louis Landry <louis....@joomla.org> wrote:

> Brad,
> Thanks for the explanation. I would appreciate it if you could just share
> the Ivo stuff on list so that we can just have this out once and for all.
> It isn't like anything he would have written was meant to be private anyway
> ... who are we protecting?

Attached is the post that was the last straw (***WARNING***: it