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Chad Windnagle
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Chad Windnagle
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You should be ashamed of your email tantrum.
What you just described is that you don’t feel you have to explain anything to the community, forgetting that Joomla exists because there’s a community, otherwise you wouldn’t have volunteers or interest in using this CMS. It’s not like there are no alternatives out there.
By the way, when you say.
“Still tired of people acting out on the "interwebs" when it could all be settled with a constructive debate and proposals to try and HELP out”
You do realize that it can only happen if you don’t act in private, right?
You want a contructive proposal? Heres one.
Kill the " The Install from Web”. Everyone will need to go to the JED again. Maybe even add an intro to the JED, let’s call it a “call to action”.
Maybe not perfect, but certainly better than feeding ads into the Joomla Backend.
Remember that a solution doesn’t mean that the end result is the one you would like it to be.
Best Regards,
Paulo Faustino
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I have No preference as to resultat
The job of the Capital team is to find oportunities of income not to be judges.
And constructive participation was part of the original process... witch was then sidestepped.
And as for your interpretation of my mail its just plan wrong... the point was to be a community you also need to respect it and the volunteers doing the job... so if you have something to add then show that respect and be constructive... any idiot can go on Twitter and call people idiots.
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"I negotiated this proposal from Google and i am in no way what so ever ashamed or sad i did so."
"Part of the goal of the capital team is to find new sources of income"
- "The JED _is_ a commercial platform. (Google Adsense)"
--
Can we try to stick to the issue and not the person
Are all interlinked
Leo (like myself) can sometimes get 'hot under the collar' but that is because he is passionate about Joomla. imho in this issue he is asking pertinent questions that are not being answered correctly by Ronni Christiansen. In fact Leo has very clearly pointed out where Ronni Christiansen has made totally erroneous and false statements. How Ronni Christiansen can claim the PLT were consulted before the email that was leaked ... is incomprehensible. For him to claim that shows either incompetence of the highest level or a deliberate attempt to deceive at the lowest level. All Leo has done is bring Ronni Christiansen's unreliable statements into view.
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In general the Capital Team nor OSM for that matter has any insights or access to data from the websites etc. those lies entirely within the PLT and CLT.So if you are looking for concrete data and numbers i am affraid we dont have them - when we requested numbers on the IFW and the JED the closest we got was some estimations.
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Michael you have some interesting stats / facts - when we tried to get stats / facts out in the earlier parts of our negotiations we where told there where none to work with.In general the Capital Team nor OSM for that matter has any insights or access to data from the websites etc. those lies entirely within the PLT and CLT.
"Lets also make it quite clear that PLT was brought onboard by the PLT Liaison - before anything was leaked"
"The Capital Team had liasons to OSM and PLT and the Legal Team was onboard too- all negotiations happend in good faith and the proposal was presented back through the liaisons".
" this was not negotiated by 1 person but by people from a TEAM which role it is to do these things."
"I negotiated this proposal from Google"
" i have sponsored around 150000 USD to joomla events all over the world"
"OSM did not initiate anything in relation to the proposal from Google"
"The entire process was handled in the capital team via liaisons to OSM and PLT and was brought up 100% in the correct procedure"
"I am very sorry - but not every deciousion in joomla is raised in a public forum - specially not when involving partners. sponsors or individuals"
I dont think the JED can be compared to the JRD - its not just a phonebook - its actual listings for concrete extensions - those with mulltiple extensions (products) has multiple listings - so its not the company thats listed but its products.An alternative model could be to have all commercial parties pay say 100 usd a year to get the right to list commercial extensions - if there is 1000 of those thats 100k of funding - which would make up for some of the lost income - the amount could be different too.But in any case it would not be bad to see those with strong commercial interests who are listed in the JED and IFW already with product listings chip in to compensate for the lost banner revenues from the JED.Alternative ideas absolutely welcome too.@chad @gary not my table but let me share what i know: no he didnt yet because its not publicly available - its being cleared off with the partner and finalized along with the 2016 budget process - within long a new budget for 2016 should be ready (i know the process is ongoing now and all the teams and budget line items owners are contributing to that process right now - you where a part of the same process last year Chad) - To those of you who doesnt realize this then OSM has repositioned most teams back under CLT and PLT in the last 2 years including their budgets which means that for the estimated final revised budget for 2015 the OSM budget share is around 25% where as half of that goes to lawyers to defend the trademark (personally i think thats silly but thats something old leadership many years ago decided to do and its been done since) - which leaves around 10-12% of the collective budget for the remaining teams and activities under OSM. The remaining 75% or so of the budget is owned by lineitems owners in the budget from PLT and CLT and they have full control with the spending under those lineitems.
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Bakual <werbe...@bakual.ch> wrote:
I want to adress the main misconception about IFW/JED you seem to have to prevent spending time into similar ideas in future. The JED is monetised by ads, yes. Nothing wrong with that.But the JED by itself is NOT a commercial platform and is NOT an advertisment for extensions. It's a directory like a telephone book (for those who remember those things *g*) or the Google search. Nobody refers to those listings as advertisment. There are commercial extensions in it, yes, but there are also many, many non-commercial extensions in it. The most important point is that nobody paid anything to be listed there, the listing is free for all. Unlike the advertisment on the site which is paid.That's why it is fine to show the directory in the Joomla Backend, but it's not fine to show paid advertisment in it. I hope you understand that difference.
Am Mittwoch, 4. November 2015 07:52:02 UTC+1 schrieb Ronni Christiansen:
Disclaimer: I am a member of the Capital Team and the JWC team and currently leading the Legal Team - and this posts is my personal opinion :)I negotiated this proposal from Google and i am in no way what so ever ashamed or sad i did so.The fact is that income is down from our Google Adsense income (which has been the _main_ income for Joomla for 10 years - the irony is not to be lost) by up to 65%.One of the factors of this is that the install from web remote loads the JED into the backend of Joomla.Doing so might be easier for people but it also heavily removes the income base which pays for codesprints, events, JET program etc.Part of the goal of the capital team is to find new sources of income and specially in this case where we could be facing a up to 40% cut in budget for 2016 compared to 2015 - it is vital that new sources of income is found.
- The JED _is_ a commercial platform. (Google Adsense)
- The Install from Web - lists - Commercial companies selling their 3rd party extensions for Joomla.
- The Install from web is not active in the CMS - but needs to be activated.
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Hi Joomlers,
and thanks Ronnie for your hard work!
I am not updated about all of these important
discussions here and elsewhere but I think many problems can be improved, if we
have real better transparency, like deciding rules/policies about processes for
the most important decision for Joomla community.
See my comments in bold here.
Ronnie C said in this discussion --> “.. And constructive participation was part of the original process... witch was then sidestepped.”
** Maybe that is not clear what a transparent
constructive participation of an original important process/idea is and how it
should be done for best information/communication with all Joomla community
members?
I prefer that we stop all different channels
for informal/formal discussion/debate/ideas etc and move these back to our
phpBB forum so a l l people can follow everything about what’s going on in Joomla world in o n e
place.
Why is this impossible??
I also have some comments below from people that I agree and disagree with..
Ronnie C
”The fact is that income is down from our Google Adsense income (which has been the _main_ income for Joomla for 10 years - the irony is not to be lost) by up to 65%.
Well thats a fact and should be told to the Joomla community that could come up with ideas and improvements to discuss - what can we do to help and come up with new ideas/solutions? I support these ideas about bring in template makers into the JED and hope they can be considered and I don’t know from beginning why template makers are not in the JED?
One of the factors of this is that the install from web remote loads the JED into the backend of Joomla. One of the factors of this is that the install from web remote loads the JED into the backend of Joomla.
Everything in this process followed the procedures as it should 100%. We did in no way find this problematic and as such we have negotiated this in good faith with google.
You should not even consider negotiating with Google before you have mandate from the community to do so. This is a very important decision that has to be brought out to the Joomla community and take time to discuss/decide. This process has been done wrong. Period.
…put on your positive hat and try and come up with cool ideas to how we can improve our income side so that we can continue to fund all of these super initiatives - did you know that in 2015 we have held more code sprints than ever? wouldnt it be a shame to see them dissapear again?”
True and you should be the catalyst to bring that issue up in the Joomla community forum to start a discussion there to get help and understanding of the problem.
Tomas K, I think this is the key point again and again..
Tomas K
It is mainly communication and transparency issue….It is mainly communication and transparency issue.
Bakul.
“Imho the real issue of the lost
JED revenue isn't in the IFW. It's because the JED currently isn't very
useful when you want to search for an extension.
I never use IFW myself when I have to search for an extension, but I also don't
use the JED for the actual search. I use Google which points me to the JED
entry (or the developer page), The results there are much better. Imho, that
is the real issue we have.
I think part of it is because the categories navigation is confusing.
** One analysis of JED ads income – where are the others?
Also there is only an advertisment slot on the main page and the search results page. There are pages without adds, eg http://extensions.joomla.org/tags/living or the extension detailpage. Those are the pages which are linked most likely on Google Search results, thus people enter from those sites and don't get any advertisment at all. Maybe that could be improved as well.
So in the end, I think there is a lot which could be improved on JED itself to raise visitor counts and thus ad revenue.”
Thanks Bakul for bringing this up and I
think the JED directory decision and improvements that old JED Mosets couldnt do compared to new JED
is an good example too.
I asked about the first analysis about
pro/cons of doing a new JED and comparing that what Mosets could not fulfilled but
I never see any documents/analysis of that important issue. One point in that
analysis could for example be how the JED ads could be improved compared to the
old Mosets JED.
Now we know the results…
So Joomlas decision could go wrong bcs
of there is not a common deciding process with policies/rules how we do things.
On all levels.
Reach out for help in the Joomla community bcs there are many brains there!!
Last comment in this JED discussion saying all from me, Bakul and others that know the old JED that worked much much better! See link below..
….If I need to decide between the new
JED and the old one as it is right now I will stay with the old one.
Thanks to all of you.
Jose.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/joomla-dev-cms/ynZ74AHwa3E
Jose:
I think you are really on point when you say there is unclarity as to which procedures etc. Require community involment.
I do not think its realistic to ever expect a big company to want to venture into any sort of negotiation if it has to be publicly debated first. They just dont operate like that.
With the New structures leadership will be mandated by election from the community so in that sense as leadership will be in reality accountable via election hopefully it will improve the sense of ownership in process because i dont think it will ever be realistic to have public debates on specific negotiations with large companies.
If that is not acceptable we need to find a system where membership payment or something similar can fund the future initiatives.
--
“I do not think its realistic to ever expect a big company to want to venture into any sort of negotiation if it has to be publicly debated first. They just dont operate like that”
As it seems to me, the issue is not the negotiation per se, but the fact that the community don’t see a benefit in starting a negotiation for ads inside the joomla admin.
I think what everyone else is saying is that before starting such a negation, the idea of negotiate with Google to add ads should have been discussed openly. What would have changed? Well, if the community were to be respected, no negotiations would have started so there would be no need to keep anything in secrecy.
Now let’s entertain the possibility of the community being pro negotiating with Google. Then these negotiations should have been kept within the Joomla Org. Structure, but not secret to a specific team. Every organization have multiple persons tracking and contributing to every negotiation, it´s keps private within the organization but not within one team of the organization.
Best Regards,
Paulo Faustino
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pay-per-lead model that w o r k s!
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@ssnobbenpay-per-lead model that w o r k s!
Anyway, I think it would be worth opening a new thread for monetizing discussions rather than getting into details here .
..
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To me the club proposal and a JTD sound best. Both give big value to the community and revenue in return.
To me the club proposal and a JTD sound best. Both give big value to the community and revenue in return.
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I’m typing this on my lunch break and won’t have time to answer questions until later this evening. My Goal here is to shed some light on the Analytics discussion.
I assure you the install from web is a very minor issue of what’s going on with traffic on the JED. I’d estimate less than 10% - 15% traffic loss is due to the Install From Web. To give you an accurate number I need access to a few extension developers google analytics. (any volunteers?)
There are multiple factors in our overall traffic decline including:
new website builds
1.5 extension removal
algorithm updates
the .org subdomains are being built and un kept or not caring about traffic and the greater Joomla.org domain authority.
the JRD launch in 2014 lost 11k sessions overnight by not properly doing 301’s.
The JED also made this mistake in Dec 2014 with their launch.
Speed issues
This is only a fraction of the problems with our website maintenance.
Organic Traffic from the JED has been on the decline since 2012 at an alarming rate
http://barracuda.digital/panguin-tool/ is a tool i use to see if websites have been affected by algorithm updates. Here is a screenshot of extentions.joomla.org from 01/01/12 - today
https://www.evernote.com/l/ADerP-G2g1BD8a7C4EmNkHfhJv23bYNb3IQ
Attached are traffic reports throughout the years. I’ll add a few more. Analytics just crashed on me https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_QTydv-xNbqZll1Z0J3enE5ZGlqc1U3QzB6bFdGVi1IN25j/view?usp=sharing
Jose:
I think you are really on point when you say there is unclarity as to which procedures etc. Require community involment.
I do not think its realistic to ever expect a big company to want to venture into any sort of negotiation if it has to be publicly debated first. They just dont operate like that.
With the New structures leadership will be mandated by election from the community so in that sense as leadership will be in reality accountable via election hopefully it will improve the sense of ownership in process because i dont think it will ever be realistic to have public debates on specific negotiations with large companies.
If that is not acceptable we need to find a system where membership payment or something similar can fund the future initiatives.
Den 05/11/2015 14.28 skrev "wdburgdorf" <laus...@gmail.com>:
Just a couple of questions to understand things better:
> "negotiating a deal with Google that in reality changes Joomla from free software into shareware/adware"
If there is advertising in one small and rarely used feature that needs to be activated manually, how does that turn the whole of Joomla into adware?
(I don't know how many people actually use IFW. I never use it, so I personally wouldn't care about some ads there. Whatever the community decides is fine with me. There shouldn't be such a shitstorm just because someone dared to think about something, and negotiate, even secretly - as long as no final decision is made before asking and listening to the community.)
> Advertising on JED and joomla.org
I don't see any ads anywhere. I'd happily see a few ads if it helps funding Joomla, my adblocker is turned off on Joomla sites. But no ads for me. Even on browsers where I have not installed an ad blocker. What am I doing wrong?
And opinions:
> Certification
Yes, let me take a test and let me pay for it. I want a badge.
> Sponsorship
It exists and is of course a good idea. But it starts at $1000 - a bit too much for some freelancers. And the sponsorship page is a bit hard to find, too.
> Charge for JED listings
Bad idea. There are some extensions that are popular and expensive and developers make "a lot" of money with them, other extensions are not profitable at all. Both kinds are important. You cannot charge the same amount for each listing, and you cannot take a fair share of revenue - because you cannot know what the revenue is per extension. Ask the big guys to sign up for sponsorships. Don't force anyone to pay.
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Here’s why I think that its better to have a different directory.
To me JED is already convoluted, I don’t even like to use it at all. I tend to use Google to get what I want from JED (and I not even a google enthusiast).
That said, templates have different needs (ie: categories, tags), to me it makes perfect sense to have a subdomain for JTD.
I said it before, I really think this can become a great source of income. The concept has already been proved by several websites like themeforest and so on.
If you need someone to chip in with man hour to vet templates, talk with template clubs, whatever… just let me know. I’m ready to contribute.
Best Regards,
Paulo Faustino
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Michael
Your assumptions imply that extensions with a paid model have a profit margin that makes this feasible.
Your assumption is that this feature
& advertising payment model will not work with extensions that have a “profit
margin” of what and not work?
Why should the margin be lesser if you sell an extension for 10 USD and give 1 USD to the Joomla community other than he give that amount away to Google when he advertising his extensions?
He only pay when he gets a dl/payment of his deal. Otherwise he pays 0 USD.
Is it not fair to give Joomla community this money instead of giving it to Google? I don’t say we should take away general Google ads in JED but both can live together..
Why Michael is this a bad idea explain
and elaborate why this is a bad idea? Your guess work is different from me what
the outcome will be…I think also that the template club could use the same
system for payment.. I have heard this 10 years and the story goes on..
Leo
I happen to agree
Leo what do you agree about and why?
Could you be more
constructive and also elaborate why this is not a good model and what the
alternative is if that’s what you mean?
We already see the problem coming from older JED discussions now as a result http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=867678 and this it not something new for all of us that hoped for a better solution.
Leo everybody don’t have your time to be
everywhere where important discussions is held in the Joomla world today and discussions
can be done privately in forums too, if
users want to create subgroups of private discussions there abut I believe that it’s
good that people get used to discuss, share docs & ideas at o n e place and thats the phpBB forum. Improve it if we need more features there then.
For example I just waited for Joomla community to use Joomla Jfusion for integrate it with one SSO login for a l l Joomla services/sites too and that could have happened too long time ago and then also just install some extra phpBB mods to cover the Joomla community needs of any extra communication features. Or user of Joomla project/time management like ProjectFork….
Now we use external services Glip, BIp, SIP etc whatever when we have our own Joomla tools to promote/use in front of us and don’t support other Joomla community developer members first and ourselves using these great tools. Why?
I don’t understand.. don’t you
understand that this drop people out of Joomla…see for example Jfusion how
Jfusion have been handled in the Joomla community..sooo bad with such a great
integration tool. If the community have supported Jfusion I am sure it could have expaned to be an integrated SAML2 SSO/Shibboleth federation tool where more companies would have look at Joomla to use in their Open Source ecco system integrate with other Open Source software like CRM, BI, EDM, ERP etc needed software. Like Google one login. We see now for example Marketing Automation Mautic that can be used with Joomla and I think there should be more focus of how Joomla can integrate with others like this and Jfusion could have been the key into that world.
Paulo
To me JED is already convoluted, I don’t even like to use it at all. I tend to use Google to get what I want from JED (and I not even a google enthusiast).
That said, templates have different needs (ie:
categories, tags), to me it makes perfect sense to have a subdomain for JTD.
Yes I agree and its one of many problems
with the new JED.
Often you better find the extension directly, then on the developer’s
site by a Google search. This is not good for the “improved” new JED and tells
you how much people use it or not and of course why the traffic have decline!
People today think/act like everything
is about search and don’t understand the fundamentals about the old Mosets
where you could navigate and use your own brain to find things (not search or
Google search) to find what you are looking for.
A directory is not the same as a search engine you have to understand UX and user logic. But if you want Google to decide everything you should know in your life by Google searching go for it.
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=896335
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There's mention of funds that were expected to be attained by OSM via the site ground contract, and that expectation wasn't met. Can you shed some light on this situation? What were the actual goals and what actually was achieved? and, what is the reason (if any) that the goals weren't met (if they indeed were not).
The Capital Team and the board have listened to the feedback on the proposal to place a banner for Google Apps in "Install from Web". We are now focusing on looking at other possibilities and suggestions for this partnership. During the past days community members have given a lot of input to the discussion and have come up with actionable alternatives / suggestion for partnership that will be taken into account as well. Thank you for your feedback.
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Cheers,
Victor Drover
Founder and CEO, Anything Digital
Co-founder, Watchful.li & jInbound.com
262-923-8200 ext. 0
Facebook: AnythingDigital | watchfulli | JInbound
Twitter: @VicDrover | @AnythingDig | @watchfulli | @JoomlaInbound
For what it worth - I think Google Ad’s having a place in the Administration (With the JED presentation) is a very good idea, Why not?, but because not related to Joomla functionnality (Like the JED extensions) will have to be switch Off if not wanted by the site owner.As for the JED itself in the administration, Here to, commercial extensions and/or all other type of services (security, hosting & others) related to Joomla should have a top Ads paying showcase why not?
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