Re: [Joomla-Leadership-Group] Open response to an occurring issue

[Sarah Watz]

The Capital Team and the board have listened to the feedback on the proposal to place a banner for Google Apps in "Install from Web". We are now focusing on looking at other possibilities and suggestions for this partnership. During the past days community members have given a lot of input to the discussion and have come up with actionable alternatives / suggestion for partnership that will be taken into account as well. Thank you for your feedback.

With warmth,
Sarah

Sarah Watz
President, Open Source Matters, Inc.
http://opensourcematters.org/

[Hannes Papenberg]

Ok, so I've not raised my voice about this whole
banner-in-Joomla-backend thing because I thought the message was sent
across the first 20 hatemails that came over the joomla-dev-cms
mailinglist and I didn't think it was necessary for me to add yet
another mail to all of this. But this response is so smooshy squishy
I-don't-wanna-say-it-but-I-have-to-say-something, that I ask you: Either
properly say it right out and retract this or don't say anything at all.
This response sounds more like you still haven't given up on it and just
want to silence us until we forgot about it.

I'm not saying that you are trying to still pursue this, but from a PR
standpoint this was probably the worst message that you could send. It
not only does not state that the deal is off, it rather kicks the door
even further open for assumptions and conspiracy theories, deepening the
distrust some here already have.

Feel free to copy the following and re-post it as the official response:

The Capital Team and the board have listened to the feedback on the
proposal to place a banner for Google Apps in "Install from Web". We

hear your criticism and will not pursue this any further. The Capital
Team has the task from OSM to find financial sources for the project and
one of the proposals was this advertising. The idea was pursued in good
faith and we did not consider how problematic this could be for several
of our users. We are sorry and we are now focusing on looking at other
possibilities and suggestions. During the past days community members

have given a lot of input to the discussion and have come up with
actionable alternatives / suggestion for partnership that will be taken
into account as well. Thank you for your feedback.

Regards,
Hannes

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[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

@Sarah Watz

Two straight forward questions

• Was the deal verbal or was a formal contract signed ?
• If so who signed on behalf of Joomla
  
  
• Are you or any member of the OSM or Capital Team receiving any inducements (either financial or otherwise) for pushing the deal onto the Joomla community ?
• N.B. This is a Yes/No question not a question that requires a procrastinated answer.
  

[Sarah Watz]

1) No contract has been signed. I'm the only one that signs contracts on behalf of Open Source Matters, Inc.
2) No.

For your information: I'm getting ready to travel to JWC in 12 hours.
I will meet with some of the membes of the Capital Team at JWC that are attending to discuss what we have learnt.

//Sarah

[Chad Windnagle]

Thanks Sarah for the precise answers. I know you're 
Getting ready for JWC.

The biggest question I still have is this:

There's mention of funds that were expected to be attained by OSM via the site ground contract, and that expectation wasn't met. Can you shed some light on this situation? What were the actual goals and what actually was achieved? and, what is the reason (if any) that the goals weren't met (if they indeed were not). 

I realize this wasn't the main objections the community had with this proposal, but it's something that's come up that I believe bares some clarity. 

Regards

Chad Windnagle

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Chad Windnagle

[Ronni Christiansen]

Disclaimer: I am a member of the Capital Team and the JWC team and currently leading the Legal Team - and this posts is my personal opinion :)

I negotiated this proposal from Google and i am in no way what so ever ashamed or sad i did so.

The fact is that income is down from our Google Adsense income (which has been the _main_ income for Joomla for 10 years - the irony is not to be lost) by up to 65%.

One of the factors of this is that the install from web remote loads the JED into the backend of Joomla.

Doing so might be easier for people but it also heavily removes the income base which pays for codesprints, events, JET program etc. 

Part of the goal of the capital team is to find new sources of income and specially in this case where we could be facing a up to 40% cut in budget for 2016 compared to 2015 - it is vital that new sources of income is found.

• The JED _is_ a commercial platform. (Google Adsense)
• The Install from Web - lists - Commercial companies selling their 3rd party extensions for Joomla.
• The Install from web is not active in the CMS - but needs to be activated.
• Once activated it loads a remote view in from the JED server showing a list of ads for commercial parties selling their extensions for Joomla.
  

The IFW is also processed by the webserver handling the remote loaded views meaning that all data is actually processed back "home" through that process (its not used for anything or aggregated but it still flows through)

Since our main income for 10 years has been from advertising coming through Google - and the JED is a commercial platform - and install from web is actually not shipped with the CMS but requires activation.

We did in no way find this problematic and as such we have negotiated this in good faith with google.

We do ofcause not do negotiations like this in public - noone does - so please wake up from your pseudo reality - if you want to be considered serious from large companies etc. for partnerships or sponsorships you need to adjust to the real world where they exist.

Everything in this process followed the procedures as it should 100%

Noone has anything to explain or be sorry about.

The Capital Team had liasons to OSM and PLT and the Legal Team was onboard too - all negotiations happend in good faith and the proposal was presented back through the liaisons.

The entire initiative comes out of hard work for the project - for the community - and to try and help save all those good initiatives that are ongoing this year - so its also realistic next year.

The only thing that went wrong in this entire case is that someone leaked it while in process - instead of responding with their objections and ideas for a different approach.

But make no mistake this volunteer community is build on right of initiative for working groups and decentralized processes - its built on trust and confidence.

Its not built on leaking information or spreading false information to fuel some alterior agenda - and the people who worked on this as well as the teams involved (who are also volunteers) deserve full credits for trying to help the community and project.

We dont throw people under the bus - we dont throw partners under the bus - we dont throw sponsors under the bus.

Everytime someone starts yelling all they can on twitter etc. to hurt Joomla's brand and the community - everyone else should be reminding them of how bad an idea that is.

Have you considered that it will be near impossible to land new partnerships or global sponsorships after this very public "pissing contest" of our most important funding partner since the start?

So just to sum it all up:

Not sorry

Not ashamed

Still worried over 2016 budget

Still tired of childish behavior

Still tired of people acting out on the "interwebs" when it could all be settled with a constructive debate and proposals to try and HELP out

But at the end of the day maybe what people want is that we dont have any activities at all???

If not and you actually do have some constructive ideas i suggest you put on your positive hat and try and come up with cool ideas to how we can improve our income side so that we can continue to fund all of these super initiatives - did you know that in 2015 we have held more code sprints than ever? wouldnt it be a shame to see them dissapear again?

So to put it in other words - be part of the solution - not the problem.

Thanks.

[Bakual]

I want to adress the main misconception about IFW/JED you seem to have to prevent spending time into similar ideas in future. The JED is monetised by ads, yes. Nothing wrong with that.

But the JED by itself is NOT a commercial platform and is NOT an advertisment for extensions. It's a directory like a telephone book (for those who remember those things *g*) or the Google search. Nobody refers to those listings as advertisment. There are commercial extensions in it, yes, but there are also many, many non-commercial extensions in it. The most important point is that nobody paid anything to be listed there, the listing is free for all. Unlike the advertisment on the site which is paid.

That's why it is fine to show the directory in the Joomla Backend, but it's not fine to show paid advertisment in it. I hope you understand that difference.

[Gary Jay Brooks]

Did you get the answers to these questions chad?

Chad Windnagle

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Regards,
Chad Windnagle

[Ronni Christiansen]

I dont think the JED can be compared to the JRD - its not just a phonebook - its actual listings for concrete extensions - those with mulltiple extensions (products) has multiple listings - so its not the company thats listed but its products.

An alternative model could be to have all commercial parties pay say 100 usd a year to get the right to list commercial extensions - if there is 1000 of those thats 100k of funding - which would make up for some of the lost income - the amount could be different too.

But in any case it would not be bad to see those with strong commercial interests who are listed in the JED and IFW already with product listings chip in to compensate for the lost banner revenues from the JED.

Alternative ideas absolutely welcome too.

@chad @gary not my table but let me share what i know: no he didnt yet because its not publicly available - its being cleared off with the partner and finalized along with the 2016 budget process - within long a new budget for 2016 should be ready (i know the process is ongoing now and all the teams and budget line items owners are contributing to that process right now - you where a part of the same process last year Chad) - To those of you who doesnt realize this then OSM has repositioned most teams back under CLT and PLT in the last 2 years including their budgets which means that for the estimated final revised budget for 2015 the OSM budget share is around 25% where as half of that goes to lawyers to defend the trademark (personally i think thats silly but thats something old leadership many years ago decided to do and its been done since) - which leaves around 10-12% of the collective budget for the remaining teams and activities under OSM. The remaining 75% or so of the budget is owned by lineitems owners in the budget from PLT and CLT and they have full control with the spending under those lineitems.

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[Bakual]

Imho the real issue of the lost JED revenue isn't in the IFW. It's because the JED currently isn't very useful when you want to search for an extension.
I never use IFW myself when I have to search for an extension, but I also don't use the JED for the actual search. I use Google which points me to the JED entry (or the developer page), The results there are much better. Imho, that is the real issue we have. I think part of it is because the categories navigation is confusing. You have the breadcrumbs on the extension itself, but on the category view you don't have it anymore. It's instead just a filter in the search. From the homepage you have a prominent categories list which invites to browse, but once inside the category, there is no nice list of subcategories. And the categories seem to be tags at the same time. That's something which could be improved.

Also there is only an advertisment slot on the main page and the search results page. There are pages without adds, eg http://extensions.joomla.org/tags/living or the extension detailpage. Those are the pages which are linked most likely on Google Search results, thus people enter from those sites and don't get any advertisment at all. Maybe that could be improved as well.

And there are several reports about the rating system being strange. The rating would be the main point why you even go to JED. This HAS to be working reliable or you loose the visitors because they don't trust the rating anymore.

I don't think requesting money from those listing paid extensions will do the trick. It would indeed turn JED (a directory, hence the name) into an advertisment platform. Only a few commercial extensions will be listed in the end (the big ones for which it pais out to pay for the ad place) and all others will just list their free extension (eg a free basic version of their commercial extension). In the end you would loose even more visitors and loose even more money than what you gain for the paid JED slots.

So in the end, I think there is a lot which could be improved on JED itself to raise visitor counts and thus ad revenue.

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[Paulo Faustino]

You should be ashamed of your email tantrum.

What you just described is that you don’t feel you have to explain anything to the community, forgetting that Joomla exists because there’s a community, otherwise you wouldn’t have volunteers or interest in using this CMS. It’s not like there are no alternatives out there.

 

By the way, when you say.

“Still tired of people acting out on the "interwebs" when it could all be settled with a constructive debate and proposals to try and HELP out”

 

You do realize that it can only happen if you don’t act in private, right?

 

 

You want a contructive proposal? Heres one.

Kill the " The Install from Web”. Everyone will need to go to the JED again. Maybe even add an intro to the JED, let’s call it a “call to action”.

 

Maybe not perfect, but certainly better than feeding ads into the Joomla Backend.

 

Remember that a solution doesn’t mean that the end result is the one you would like it to be.

 

 

Best Regards,

Paulo Faustino

--

[Ronni Christiansen]

I have No preference as to resultat
The job of the Capital team is to find oportunities of income not to be judges.

And constructive participation was part of the original process... witch was then sidestepped.

And as for your interpretation of my mail its just plan wrong... the point was to be a community you also need to respect it and the volunteers doing the job... so if you have something to add then show that respect and be constructive... any idiot can go on Twitter and call people idiots.

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[Tomasz Kisielewski]

It is mainly communication and transparency issue. Everyone understands that Joomla needs as much money as possible, no doubts about it. Even the most stupid idea during brain storm is worth consideration as it may lead to something good, but before any negotiations attempts, the general idea should be "consulted" with community ( transparency ). I hope OSM will learn from this unfortunate mistake. If JED is loosing then improve website, put link to JED into Joomla ( remove install from web ) instead of paid ads. Start to host Joomla templates not only extensions, drupal and wordpress do, why Joomla can't? Why not to introduce paid support something like drupal association ( https://assoc.drupal.org/membership ) where people pay yearly donation and use Joomla badge on their websites to show support. It has been started by drupal, but if there is some money to make, why not to try? It is really hard to find something unique these days,but OSM with its "paid ads built in to Joomla" really did it.

web design and development

www.tkstudiodesign.com

[Michael Babker]

I've asked several loaded questions in the last week with no response, and I've made statements with verifiable data that nobody wants to address.  And quite frankly, until I get responses to these statements, I'm going to keep pushing them ever so slightly; you're damn right I'm pissed off and have an agenda now.

So, for the fourth time, I'll ask this question specifically toward those who were negotiating the deal with Google, but more generally anyone else is welcome to respond too.  Would you, as CEO's of businesses which produce Joomla extensions, or extension developers yourselves, be willing to place third party advertisements in your own extensions in the same manner in which you were so eager to place third party advertisements in the Install from Web service?  Explain your answer.

Statement two.  In August 2013, JoomlaCode saw a traffic decline from over 10,000 sessions per day to just over 100 sessions per day (source: Google Analytics).  This was about the same timeframe of the last major upgrade of the GForge software, which ended up being a huge mistake considering how unstable the site became, but that's beside the point.  What I can derive from that data is that either a bug exists (or existed) in GForge and that either the old or new version caused a change in reported traffic metrics or that upgrade resulted in a 99% loss of traffic.  Now why is that significant to this thread?  Depending on the page (and if the platform is actually functional), there are two or three ad spaces displayed to the user.  In an almost overnight shift, 99% of traffic was lost.  Not one peep about it was made, which would presumably have included a major loss in ad revenue.  If this project is in such a dire financial situation (which can only be assumed based on the doom and gloom Ronni presents with our funding shortfalls and the lack of any reporting from the Treasurer), why have we gone two years now without addressing that particular issue?

[Cyril Rezé]

@tomkis : Just open a new topic here, with a proposal : https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/joomla-dev-cms/Hm33kbXlawE ;-)

[Leo Lammerink]

You are flying to India with some stops I learned on Twitter...Are you flying EC of BC and did you use your Frequent Flyer Points for this trip to relieve the financial burden on Joomla?

Leo Lammerink
MD GWS - Enterprise Ltd
Skype: gwsgroup
www.gws-desk.com | www.gws-host.com | www.gws-studio.com | www.gws-deals.today

[Paul Orwig]

If the community had access to an appropriate amount of current facts and data, then the community could understand more about what is happening and why. That's one of the reasons why openness and transparency is important - to take advantage of the knowledge, experience, ideas and passion throughout the community, instead of only a few.

If I recall correctly, the leaked screenshot of the original email only mentioned SiteGround as the source for lost revenue, but ever since then it seems all the official explanations are that the source of the revenue problem is JED, and indirectly IFW because it cannibalizes JED traffic.

Please clarify as much as possible regarding the reference to SiteGround in the leaked screenshot.

Please provide whatever facts and data you can about expected traffic loss to JED that can reasonably tied to IFW. If I recall correctly, IFW was or has been disabled for a known period of time due to some technical issues. If IFW truly represents a significant source of JED traffic loss, it should be easy to see a significant upward spike in JED traffic during the time period that IFW has been disabled. If there is no significant upward spike in JED traffic during that time, it suggests IFW is not the source of a significant JED traffic loss.

Joomla and OSM certainly need money to fund worthwhile initiatives, but I believe most end users want to choose the best software to meet their needs. If we want to bring in more money for the project, I believe the best, but not quickest, solution is to put more of a focus on improving the software, so that more users will want to use Joomla. If we do that, it should lead to more traffic on the JED, and more interest from sponsors, etc. In the short term, I suggest reducing expenses to balance the budget. It's good that we had more code sprints this year, but my understanding (in hearing directly from multiple code sprint participants) is that not all of this year's code sprints have been very productive or effective.

So, my final question is - how do we feel we are doing to improve the software? Are we supporting and encouraging volunteer developers, or are we driving our developers away? Because in the end, if we continue losing volunteer developers, we will continue to lose end users, and then it doesn't really matter how or where we put advertising.

Thanks,

paul

[Sully Sullivan]

I would like some insights and analysis is of why our ad revenue has declined so much. These are my guesses at possible reasons. Maybe someone can confirm what metrics are available?

* Fewer impressions at the JED because Install from Web has diverted traffic. At least one way to answer this may be to compare how revenue from ads on other high-traffic Joomla! assets like our forum and documentation/help sites changed in comparison to the JED. Is there a disparity?
* Fewer impressions overall--does the sum of JED traffic plus Install From Web traffic point to overall declining traffic?
* Declining value of CMS audience as attention switches to mobile device native apps?

* Declining value of our audience based on advertiser's demographic needs? (i.e., the most lucrative may be looking for North American or Western European eyeballs and we are offer increasingly more of other regions of the world?)

 

Just some thoughts. It would be great if there was a place where the community could view some of this data (I realize some might be sensitive to our negotiating position. Hence, "some" not "all."). We could crowd-source some creative solutions. We have a lot of the world's smartest people in our community.

Best,

Sully

 

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

@Ronni Christiansen

Your post is a disgrace ... either you fail to understand the symbiotic relationship between professionals and talented amateurs who contribute to the Joomla project or you are trying to run 'rough shod' over it.

"I negotiated this proposal from Google and i am in no way what so ever ashamed or sad i did so."

Shows a total lack of understanding the 'freedom' that free software provides.  By introducing paid ads into free software gives the advertiser exclusivity that excludes others ... and thus removes the freedom of the free software.  It allows the advertiser to dictate the direction of the project.

But your statement raises a few more questions.
Who did Google make the proposal to ?
Why did they select that person to make the proposal to ?
Do they have contact with that person for other matters ?

"Part of the goal of the capital team is to find new sources of income"

That statement is only partially correct and therefore misleading.  You miss out that the 'new sources of income' must be in keeping with the ethos of free software in general and of Joomla specifically.  But placing ads into free software changes it from free software into shareware/adware ... and shareware/adware has a totally different ethos to freeware.  Shareware/adware does not have a 'symbiotic relationship between professionals and talented amateurs'.

• "The JED _is_ a commercial platform. (Google Adsense)"

No ... JED is a website that uses free software.  Developers choose to have their (commercial/non-commercial) extensions listed ... having a listing on a site that has adverts has no comparison to changing free software into shareware/adware.

The rest of your post is full of general observations added as a feeble attempt to justify your actions but in reality are no justification for your negotiating a deal that would turn Joomla into shareware/adware.

[Leo Lammerink]

@ Kevin (webdongle) +/+ 100

"Christiansen and his Redcomponent - gang rule " (who cares about those suckers who represent that so called community? )

Leo

--

[brian teeman]

Can we try to stick to the issue and not the person

[Leo Lammerink]

Issue = related to persons You cannot avoid that here Brian. Certain persons who take 'decisions' without agreement of this community need to know that this community is not happy

On 11/5/2015 12:49 AM, brian teeman wrote:

Can we try to stick to the issue and not the person

[Michael Babker]

You can still attack the actions and behaviors without resorting to personal attacks on specific individuals.  That's what Brian's trying to say.

[Leo Lammerink]

Sometimes Michael as you know very well is expressing thoughts about people's posts who express themselves very clearly and intensively is very much allowed If a person here on these threats places himself fully in front of the Capital Team he/She should expect the storm

Cheers

[Leo Lammerink]

or better stated: "weather themselves for the storm"

[Michael Babker]

Like I said, attack the behaviors and actions without resorting to personal attacks on those folks.  There is a fine line.  See one of my posts from earlier today where I very explicitly question some folks judgement and behaviors without attacking their individual character.

[Robert]

Here is the real fun fact. The PLT decided (six months ago I think) to remove the server between the IFW and the JED and I have re-build the IFW plugin to directly communicate with the JED and just grab data and render the data on the client.That is also not really a secret I have send messages (at least tweets),I think it is mentioned in PLT minutes and so on. It isn't implemented (rolled out) yet because there are some performance issues and the JED team can't work on it because there are some things to do (Legal??) on OSM site (I don't have details, that is only what I got form different conversations).

To keep a long story short the technical way to do it is not an option.

Cheers,

Robert

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

The person and the issue are interlinked in this case. Vis-à-vis

• The negotiation was conducted between Google and one Person
• That persons ability to understand (or deliberate ignoring ) the ethos of free software
• That persons intentions
• That persons ability to balance expenditure to income without turning Joomla into shareware/adware
• That persons connections with Google

Are all interlinked

Leo (like myself) can sometimes get 'hot under the collar' but that is because he is passionate about Joomla. imho in this issue he is asking pertinent questions that are not being answered correctly by Ronni Christiansen.  In fact Leo has very clearly pointed out where Ronni Christiansen has made totally erroneous and false statements.  How Ronni Christiansen can claim the PLT were consulted before the email that was leaked ... is incomprehensible.  For him to claim that shows either incompetence of the highest level or a deliberate attempt to deceive at the lowest level.  All Leo has done is bring Ronni Christiansen's unreliable statements into view.

[Ronni Christiansen]

Paul: I can not account for someones leaks of partial data nor for their reasoning behind that not is it my role.

I can however tell you that once the formal budget process, which is in progress now, is finished everything from all LT's etc will be shared as allways.

I do realize you think you should have some insights in this now - but when you where the president you didnt offer the same insights into process details like this so i dont know what has changed - in many ways the procedures now is a continuation of earlier procedures however with more decentralization of budget power than ever before.

Webdongle/Leo: your continueing down the same old path as many times before - facts are cleary not on your side - this was not negotiated by 1 person but by people from a TEAM which role it is to do these things. Lets also make it quite clear that PLT was brought onboard by the PLT Liaison - before anything was leaked. Again this is the factual matter and anyone from PLT can confirm this (as so did Chris on the public leadership mailinglist). And just a FYI my flight was on economy class as it always is and is not funded by the project - but by the JWC where i also sponsor for the 4th year in a row - in the last 8 years or so i have sponsored around 150000 USD to joomla events all over the world - setting the rate high by total cost for the project as a whole has been less than 5% of that - so please spare me from your petty accusations.

Its very simple to check those facts - but the question remains if you are interested in the facts.

Changing the facts and truth to fit your person attacks is just to low - its not befitting for any debate at all.

Its perfectly OK to not approve of the overall idea, its perfectly ok to be against it - again those topics are as such outside of the scope of the capital team which role is quite clear.

Once a working group / team is mandated with a job and the volunteers does that job - we fundamentally need to respect that effort and contribution to the project and community - we may disagree and we can offer alternatives and better proposals etc. but at the end of the day you are not really contributing anything if your primary role and goal is to take a dump on people whenever the chance arises - your just part of the underlying problem.

Its not like we send every PLT vote to a public debate after each of their meetings right? Its not like anyone who was ever in leadership and seems to find somethings problematic now ever in any way did anything that added more transparency than there is now.

Michael you have some interesting stats / facts - when we tried to get stats / facts out in the earlier parts of our negotiations we where told there where none to work with.

In general the Capital Team nor OSM for that matter has any insights or access to data from the websites etc. those lies entirely within the PLT and CLT.

So if you are looking for concrete data and numbers i am affraid we dont have them - when we requested numbers on the IFW and the JED the closest we got was some estimations.

I think its super important to figure out why it is that there is such a decrease in income from the JED - i also think its super relevant to debate weater the commercial parties should pay some form of symbolic yearly payment too - after all they do have a commercial interest - but maybe if we increase banner positions that will happen naturally (i personally suggested adding 1 more banner on category level and 1 banner on all extension landing pages on the JED as it has none now and in my estimations that alone can account for quite a lot).

FYI: The same people who has been working on the google proposal has also assembled a team with the JED Leader and Marketing Team Leader to make a new global banner rotation system across all the joomla websites.

Also lets clarify a few things just to keep it factual.

OSM did not initiate anything in relation to the proposal from Google - i see people who still wants to paint that picture its simply not true.

The entire process was handled in the capital team via liaisons to OSM and PLT and was brought up 100% in the correct procedure.

I am very sorry - but not every deciousion in joomla is raised in a public forum - specially not when involving partners. sponsors or individuals - it never has in the last 10 years of history of joomla and it shoulndt.

To handle individual related cases you need to respect the individual - to handle negotiations with sponsors or partners you again need to respect them.

That is the real world implication of doing partnerships and sponsorships - and its been like this all the time.

If a public RFC is made for anything then the foundation of whats happening is known - but none of the bids are, none of the negotiations are and only once the final agreement is in place (and handled by X amount of teams / leadership) the final data is shown in the budgets etc. which are all public and fully transparent including lineitem owners etc.

I really appreciate some of the very concrete good ideas that has been posted in this thread - it makes me positive for finding future solutions to mend the gabs that has arisen.

As you have most likely also realized by now - i am actually going for the ball - we have a problem and we need a solution.

If you care about the community and project you will try and chip in and find solutions - any idea is welcome and i am sure this threas as the attention of all interested parties.

Id love to end this off with a proposal myself:

A cross team action team focusing on the JED / IFW and how to optimize the monitization within the scopes of what is found acceptable (again - i dont have a personal reference for me what matters is enabling others in pursuiing the activities that grow and empower Joomla).

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[Radek Suski]

Thank you Sarah for opening this discussion.

I have a couple of questions concerning the current situation:

• Why the community was no aware of the problem? I do not expect of course direct blog post informing people that we are in trouble but I read OSM minutes and there was no information about any issues. Actually quite contrary to. I found only one single information about Joe negotiating with Google about Google Apps. As a side note, the OSM team seems to be misinformed about the events team activity. Looks pretty bad.
• You are saying that the capital team was negotiating this. But as far I can say at least two members of the team were not aware of any of this. It actually looks like only two people were involved in this activity.
• Why the community, or even just the PLT has not been consulted before any negotiations with Google even started? 
• Did anyone tried to find out why the revenue from Google Ads dropped that drastically? As far as I can say not that many people are using the IFW feature, that it would cause such a drastic decrease

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Radek

[Paul Orwig]

Ronni,

I am sorry but I have a difficult time believing what you wrote here:

In general the Capital Team nor OSM for that matter has any insights or access to data from the websites etc. those lies entirely within the PLT and CLT.

So if you are looking for concrete data and numbers i am affraid we dont have them - when we requested numbers on the IFW and the JED the closest we got was some estimations.

When I was on OSM, there wasn't any problem for me to have full access to joomla.org website traffic analytics, and I believe the Capital team leader also had the same access. I can't imagine that OSM would not have similar access now.

If what you wrote is true, then did PLT and CLT remove access for OSM to web analytics? Or, did OSM ask for access to be reinstated but PLT and CLT refused?

Unless I misunderstand what you wrote, either there are much more serious breakdowns between leadership teams than the community has been led to believe, or we aren't being told the full truth.

paul

 

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[brian teeman]

On Wednesday, 4 November 2015 19:18:11 UTC, Ronni Christiansen wrote:

Michael you have some interesting stats / facts - when we tried to get stats / facts out in the earlier parts of our negotiations we where told there where none to work with.

In general the Capital Team nor OSM for that matter has any insights or access to data from the websites etc. those lies entirely within the PLT and CLT.

I've seen those stats so I know for a fact they exist and at the time I was shown them they were from the Marketing Team which again at that time was under the remit of OSM.

[brian teeman]

The bare naked truth about Joomla!'s data https://youtu.be/rwttFiH2pbs via @YouTube
Presentation at jab14

[Webdongle Elgnodbew]

@ Ronni Christiansen

"Lets also make it quite clear that PLT was brought onboard by the PLT Liaison - before anything was leaked"

Again you twist the facts.  Clearly the PLT were 'brought onboard' before the leak because the leak was about the notification to the PLT.  What is in question is that claim the PLT were 'onboard'

You stated

"The Capital Team had liasons to OSM and PLT and the Legal Team was onboard too- all negotiations happend in good faith and the proposal was presented back through the liaisons".

 Yet George Wilson states that the leaked email "was the only communication as of when it got leaked".  For you to claim otherwise then try to hide your false statement (by misdirection of the time line) is despicable.


You claim

" this was not negotiated by 1 person but by people from a TEAM which role it is to do these things."

Which contradicts what you said in your initial post when you 'broke cover'
You said

"I negotiated this proposal from Google"

Those two statements are mutually exclusive and therefore at least one of your statements is proven false.

" i have sponsored around 150000 USD to joomla events all over the world"

You or your companies ? And was it for purely magnanimous or just a good business strategy ?

"OSM did not initiate anything in relation to the proposal from Google"

Again you reverse what was asked.  It was asked who Google approached and why they chose that person.

"The entire process was handled in the capital team via liaisons to OSM and PLT and was brought up 100% in the correct procedure"

Yet again you make a false statement because it is evident the leaked email was the first communication to the PLT and was subsequent to the process of negotiating the deal
)

"I am very sorry - but not every deciousion in joomla is raised in a public forum - specially not when involving partners. sponsors or individuals"

The issue is not about notifications in a public forum (or elsewhere) about "involving partners. sponsors or individuals" ... it's about you negotiating a deal with Google that in reality changes Joomla from free software into shareware/adware.  A blind man with a white stick can see that ... so surely a man with your business acumen can also see it.  But you continue to try and misdirect the issue with rhetoric and false/incorrect statements.

On Wednesday, 4 November 2015 19:18:11 UTC, Ronni Christiansen wrote:

[romacron]

I like the payment idea for commercial extensions.
Perhaps the payment plans should be discussed.

"If you earn money with JED you can give a little bit back"

+1

Am 04.11.2015 um 09:01 schrieb Ronni Christiansen:
> I dont think the JED can be compared to the JRD - its not just a
> phonebook - its actual listings for concrete extensions - those with
> mulltiple extensions (products) has multiple listings - so its not the
> company thats listed but its products.
>
> An alternative model could be to have all commercial parties pay say 100
> usd a year to get the right to list commercial extensions - if there is
> 1000 of those thats 100k of funding - which would make up for some of
> the lost income - the amount could be different too.
>
> But in any case it would not be bad to see those with strong commercial
> interests who are listed in the JED and IFW already with product
> listings chip in to compensate for the lost banner revenues from the JED.
>
> Alternative ideas absolutely welcome too.
>
> @chad @gary not my table but let me share what i know: no he didnt yet
> because its not publicly available - its being cleared off with the
> partner and finalized along with the 2016 budget process - within long a
> new budget for 2016 should be ready (i know the process is ongoing now
> and all the teams and budget line items owners are contributing to that
> process right now - you where a part of the same process last year Chad)
> - To those of you who doesnt realize this then OSM has repositioned most
> teams back under CLT and PLT in the last 2 years including their budgets
> which means that for the estimated final revised budget for 2015 the OSM
> budget share is around 25% where as half of that goes to lawyers to
> defend the trademark (personally i think thats silly but thats something
> old leadership many years ago decided to do and its been done since) -
> which leaves around 10-12% of the collective budget for the remaining
> teams and activities under OSM. The remaining 75% or so of the budget is
> owned by lineitems owners in the budget from PLT and CLT and they have
> full control with the spending under those lineitems.
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Bakual <werbe...@bakual.ch
> <mailto:werbe...@bakual.ch>> wrote:
>
> I want to adress the main misconception about IFW/JED you seem to
> have to prevent spending time into similar ideas in future. The JED
> is monetised by ads, yes. Nothing wrong with that.
> But the JED by itself is NOT a commercial platform and is NOT an
> advertisment for extensions. It's a directory like a telephone book
> (for those who remember those things *g*) or the Google search.
> Nobody refers to those listings as advertisment. There are
> commercial extensions in it, yes, but there are also many, many
> non-commercial extensions in it. The most important point is that
> nobody paid anything to be listed there, the listing is free for
> all. Unlike the advertisment on the site which is paid.
>
> That's why it is fine to show the directory in the Joomla Backend,
> but it's not fine to show paid advertisment in it. I hope you
> understand that difference.

>
> Am Mittwoch, 4. November 2015 07:52:02 UTC+1 schrieb Ronni Christiansen:
>
> Disclaimer: I am a member of the Capital Team and the JWC team
> and currently leading the Legal Team - and this posts is my
> personal opinion :)
>
> I negotiated this proposal from Google and i am in no way what
> so ever ashamed or sad i did so.
>
> The fact is that income is down from our Google Adsense income
> (which has been the _main_ income for Joomla for 10 years - the
> irony is not to be lost) by up to 65%.
>
> One of the factors of this is that the install from web remote
> loads the JED into the backend of Joomla.
>
> Doing so might be easier for people but it also heavily removes
> the income base which pays for codesprints, events, JET program
> etc.
>
> Part of the goal of the capital team is to find new sources of
> income and specially in this case where we could be facing a up
> to 40% cut in budget for 2016 compared to 2015 - it is vital
> that new sources of income is found.
>

> * The JED _is_ a commercial platform. (Google Adsense)
> * The Install from Web - lists - Commercial companies selling

> their 3rd party extensions for Joomla.

> * The Install from web is not active in the CMS - but needs to
> be activated.
> * Once activated it loads a remote view in from the JED server

> showing a list of ads for commercial parties selling their
> extensions for Joomla.
>
>
> The IFW is also processed by the webserver handling the remote
> loaded views meaning that all data is actually processed back
> "home" through that process (its not used for anything or
> aggregated but it still flows through)
>
> Since our main income for 10 years has been from advertising
> coming through Google - and the JED is a commercial platform -
> and install from web is actually not shipped with the CMS but
> requires activation.
>
> We did in no way find this problematic and as such we have
> negotiated this in good faith with google.
>
> We do ofcause not do negotiations like this in public - noone
> does - so please wake up from your pseudo reality - if you want
> to be considered serious from large companies etc. for
> partnerships or sponsorships you need to adjust to the real
> world where they exist.
>
> Everything in this process followed the procedures as it should 100%
>
> Noone has anything to explain or be sorry about.
>

> The Capital Team had liasons to OSM and PLT and the Legal Team

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[er...@digital-garage.com.au]

Hi Folks,

 

There was talk some time ago about a certification program.

 

What about differing levels of certification (integrators, template developers, extension developers) etc.  Revenue could come from  courseware, training, exams.  Then also an annual fee to to retain certification.

 

As an integrator and also having a couple of extensions in the JED I'd be willing to pay an annual fee if it meant I got a badge for my website as an "approved" Joomla integration or applications developer.  Structure the pricing based on tiers and tie it to number of employees or business revenue so you avoid only have big studios at the cost of freelancers.

 

It would raise the all round quality and kick in some funds.

 

Eric.

 

 

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 06:01 PM, Ronni Christiansen wrote:

I dont think the JED can be compared to the JRD - its not just a phonebook - its actual listings for concrete extensions - those with mulltiple extensions (products) has multiple listings - so its not the company thats listed but its products.

 

An alternative model could be to have all commercial parties pay say 100 usd a year to get the right to list commercial extensions - if there is 1000 of those thats 100k of funding - which would make up for some of the lost income - the amount could be different too.

 

But in any case it would not be bad to see those with strong commercial interests who are listed in the JED and IFW already with product listings chip in to compensate for the lost banner revenues from the JED.

 

Alternative ideas absolutely welcome too.

 

@chad @gary not my table but let me share what i know: no he didnt yet because its not publicly available - its being cleared off with the partner and finalized along with the 2016 budget process - within long a new budget for 2016 should be ready (i know the process is ongoing now and all the teams and budget line items owners are contributing to that process right now - you where a part of the same process last year Chad) - To those of you who doesnt realize this then OSM has repositioned most teams back under CLT and PLT in the last 2 years including their budgets which means that for the estimated final revised budget for 2015 the OSM budget share is around 25% where as half of that goes to lawyers to defend the trademark (personally i think thats silly but thats something old leadership many years ago decided to do and its been done since) - which leaves around 10-12% of the collective budget for the remaining teams and activities under OSM. The remaining 75% or so of the budget is owned by lineitems owners in the budget from PLT and CLT and they have full control with the spending under those lineitems.

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Bakual <werbe...@bakual.ch> wrote:

I want to adress the main misconception about IFW/JED you seem to have to prevent spending time into similar ideas in future. The JED is monetised by ads, yes. Nothing wrong with that.

But the JED by itself is NOT a commercial platform and is NOT an advertisment for extensions. It's a directory like a telephone book (for those who remember those things *g*) or the Google search. Nobody refers to those listings as advertisment. There are commercial extensions in it, yes, but there are also many, many non-commercial extensions in it. The most important point is that nobody paid anything to be listed there, the listing is free for all. Unlike the advertisment on the site which is paid.

 

That's why it is fine to show the directory in the Joomla Backend, but it's not fine to show paid advertisment in it. I hope you understand that difference.

 

Am Mittwoch, 4. November 2015 07:52:02 UTC+1 schrieb Ronni Christiansen:

Disclaimer: I am a member of the Capital Team and the JWC team and currently leading the Legal Team - and this posts is my personal opinion :)

 

I negotiated this proposal from Google and i am in no way what so ever ashamed or sad i did so.

 

The fact is that income is down from our Google Adsense income (which has been the _main_ income for Joomla for 10 years - the irony is not to be lost) by up to 65%.

 

One of the factors of this is that the install from web remote loads the JED into the backend of Joomla.

 

Doing so might be easier for people but it also heavily removes the income base which pays for codesprints, events, JET program etc. 

 

Part of the goal of the capital team is to find new sources of income and specially in this case where we could be facing a up to 40% cut in budget for 2016 compared to 2015 - it is vital that new sources of income is found.

 

• The JED _is_ a commercial platform. (Google Adsense)
  

• The Install from Web - lists - Commercial companies selling their 3rd party extensions for Joomla.
  

• The Install from web is not active in the CMS - but needs to be activated.
  

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[Leo Lammerink]

Fair enough statement

[Ronni Christiansen]

Radek: As Sarah was not part of the talks with Google and OSM was not leading this i will try and answer in her place:

1) Multiple people from different groups has been brought into play to try and work on solutions including JED, The Marketing Team etc.

Members of the capital team also reached out to PLT / Marketing Team to get concrete data on views on the JED / IFW etc. but only partial data was available.

As part of these ongoing efforts multiple new ideas and proposals for partnerships / sponsorships has been worked on including a new banner rotation system are in test.

I dont think its a good idea to question the financial situation of Joomla in public personally so i dont think its an issue that per say requires public debate - after all its in noones interest to question the stability of Joomla.

But at the end of the day quite a lot has been worked on - but it seems to really get things moving we need more people and teams involved to get good outcomes.

2) Yes - not all people where involved in this - as i am sure in the events team not all people are involved in everything - its the same in most other teams too.

4 people was actually involved in this or related activities.

3) We dont have a precedence for involving other teams before there is something concrete on the table they can relate too.

In this case the PLT liaisons was onboarded within the capital team and then the PLT via the PLT liaison (as its normal procedure).

The PLT is not involved in the daily workings of the capital team - just as its not involved in many other teams daily work.

The PLT was onboarded in the right time as per historic cross team coodination / work etc.

I surely didnt invent the liaison system but its there for a reason.

As for involving other parties (teams / persons etc.) with ongoing negotiations thats really not something that has been done before either - those negotiations tend to be quite fragile and until you have something solid you dont really involve others.

I dont think its very healthy for the right of initiative if everything has to be processed through PLT (or any leadership) before it has a concrete form - after all we seek to enable and give power of initiative to the decentralized teams so that volunteers has the right of initiative.

4) In parts yes - see answer 1 - but its obvious for me now that to really get things moving we need more teams involved to make it happen - a cross team "action team" might be a good way to do it.

Paul: The problem is with the new JED and the IFW (and changes to it) there is no actual data that we could get our hands on for amount of views for IFW.

We did get some partial data from the JED etc. but was told there was no complete data - we asked for these numbers 2-3 months ago.

So with the information i have at hand there is no data on say the IFW.

Brian: As OSM has repositioned any team to PLT and CLT that was earlier run under OSM but did not relate to financial or legal as such OSM does not have control over those teams - before the JED rebuild and the IFW there was data on everything from Google Analytics - but i am not sure why there isnt now.

Michael: If you have any specific questions that i can answer please highlight them and i will try and see if i can answer or find an answer - as to questions on stats and data i really cant add more then i described above.

Eric: I think that would be a super idea - if you have commercial extensions on the JED and pay an annual fee you get a badge of sorts as an official 3rd party extension provider - i know that as a 3rd party dev. i would certainly also find that a good model.

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[Sully Sullivan]

Hi Ronni,

 

"Assume good faith" is a cardinal rule in large-scale collaboration. I don't think you've been shown enough of that in this discussion. Thanks for your efforts on behalf of Joomla!.

 

Let me add. From your clarifications below, I can appreciate that a collaborative process was sincerely attempted, though it didn't go well. I also think it's correct that if your project is charged from leadership to do something, leadership ought to stand back and see what you come up with rather than micro-manage. And lastly, I have learned over the years of developing and integrating websites to require my customers at the outset to designate a single point of contact for most decisions, because with too many people involved timelines explode and tempers fray and work doesn't get accomplished and at the end, they blame us for their chaos and we don't get referred future business. So I don't fault the capital committee for not having a lot of community involvement and wanting some privacy during negotiations, and I believe you were investing your volunteer time in something you thought would benefit our project. Finally, thanks for being willing to absorb some process improvements.

That said--at least in my opinion third-party advertising within our products, even in optionally-activated extensions, would be too negatively disruptive to our user base, end users and Joomla!'s perception within the FOSS community. Anecdotally, after a (mildly) irate call from an early client, I learned to delete the inactive Joomla! shop banners in the /images directory that the CMS ships with (actually, all demo content there). So, can you confirm the earlier statement by Sarah that this avenue for funding has been dropped?

 

Thanks again. I'm not blowing smoke--I sincerely am grateful someone is putting effort and time (and in your case, I know a significant amount of money, too!) into exploring every angle to financially sustain and improve the project. Even when I disagree with some of them.

 

Best,

Sully

[Ronni Christiansen]

I can 100% confirm that any plans to put a banner in the IFW is stopped - it did as soon as the PLT said its a no go.

Focus lies on other means of trying to accomplish the same - to help find more funding for future activities on the community.

[ssnobben]

Hi Joomlers,

and thanks Ronnie for your hard work!

I am not updated about all of these important discussions here and elsewhere but I think many problems can be improved, if we have real better transparency, like deciding rules/policies about processes for the most important decision for Joomla community.

See my comments in bold here.

Ronnie C said in this discussion --> “.. And constructive participation was part of the original process... witch was then sidestepped.”

** Maybe that is not clear what a transparent constructive participation of an original important process/idea is and how it should be done for best information/communication with all Joomla community members?

I prefer that we stop all different channels for informal/formal discussion/debate/ideas etc and move these back to our phpBB forum so a l l people can follow everything about what’s going on in Joomla world in o n e place.

Why is this impossible??

I also have some comments below from people that I agree and disagree with..

Ronnie C

”The fact is that income is down from our Google Adsense income (which has been the _main_ income for Joomla for 10 years - the irony is not to be lost) by up to 65%.

 

Well thats a fact and should be told to the Joomla community that could come up with ideas and improvements to discuss - what can we do to help and come up with new ideas/solutions? I support these ideas about bring in template makers into the JED and hope they can be considered and I don’t know from beginning why template makers are not in the JED?

One of the factors of this is that the install from web remote loads the JED into the backend of Joomla. One of the factors of this is that the install from web remote loads the JED into the backend of Joomla.

 

Everything in this process followed the procedures as it should 100%. We did in no way find this problematic and as such we have negotiated this in good faith with google.

 

You should not even consider negotiating with Google before you have mandate from the community to do so. This is a very important decision that has to be brought out to the Joomla community and take time to discuss/decide. This process has been done wrong. Period.

 

…put on your positive hat and try and come up with cool ideas to how we can improve our income side so that we can continue to fund all of these super initiatives - did you know that in 2015 we have held more code sprints than ever? wouldnt it be a shame to see them dissapear again?”

True and you should be the catalyst to bring that issue up in the Joomla community forum to start a discussion there to get help and understanding of the problem.

Tomas K, I think this is the key point again and again..

Tomas K

It is mainly communication and transparency issue….It is mainly communication and transparency issue.

Bakul.

“Imho the real issue of the lost JED revenue isn't in the IFW. It's because the JED currently isn't very useful when you want to search for an extension.
I never use IFW myself when I have to search for an extension, but I also don't use the JED for the actual search. I use Google which points me to the JED entry (or the developer page), The results there are much better. Imho, that is the real issue we have.

I think part of it is because the categories navigation is confusing.

** One analysis of JED ads income – where are the others?

Also there is only an advertisment slot on the main page and the search results page. There are pages without adds, eg http://extensions.joomla.org/tags/living or the extension detailpage. Those are the pages which are linked most likely on Google Search results, thus people enter from those sites and don't get any advertisment at all. Maybe that could be improved as well.

So in the end, I think there is a lot which could be improved on JED itself to raise visitor counts and thus ad revenue.”

Thanks Bakul for bringing this up and I think the JED directory decision and improvements that old JED Mosets couldnt do compared to new JED is an good example too.

I asked about the first analysis about pro/cons of doing a new JED and comparing that what Mosets could not fulfilled but I never see any documents/analysis of that important issue. One point in that analysis could for example be how the JED ads could be improved compared to the old Mosets JED.

Now we know the results…

So Joomlas decision could go wrong bcs of there is not a common deciding process with policies/rules how we do things. On all levels.

Reach out for help in the Joomla community bcs there are many brains there!!

Last comment in this JED discussion saying all from me, Bakul and others that know the old JED that worked much much better! See link below..

….If I need to decide between the new JED and the old one as it is right now I will stay with the old one.

Thanks to all of you.

Jose.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/joomla-dev-cms/ynZ74AHwa3E

 

[wdburgdorf]

Just a couple of questions to understand things better:

> "negotiating a deal with Google that in reality changes Joomla from free software into shareware/adware"

If there is advertising in one small and rarely used feature that needs to be activated manually, how does that turn the whole of Joomla into adware?
(I don't know how many people actually use IFW. I never use it, so I personally wouldn't care about some ads there. Whatever the community decides is fine with me. There shouldn't be such a shitstorm just because someone dared to think about something, and negotiate, even secretly - as long as no final decision is made before asking and listening to the community.)

> Advertising on JED and joomla.org
I don't see any ads anywhere. I'd happily see a few ads if it helps funding Joomla, my adblocker is turned off on Joomla sites. But no ads for me. Even on browsers where I have not installed an ad blocker. What am I doing wrong?

And opinions:
> Certification
Yes, let me take a test and let me pay for it. I want a badge.

> Sponsorship
It exists and is of course a good idea. But it starts at $1000 - a bit too much for some freelancers. And the sponsorship page is a bit hard to find, too.

> Charge for JED listings
Bad idea. There are some extensions that are popular and expensive and developers make "a lot" of money with them, other extensions are not profitable at all. Both kinds are important. You cannot charge the same amount for each listing, and you cannot take a fair share of revenue - because you cannot know what the revenue is per extension. Ask the big guys to sign up for sponsorships. Don't force anyone to pay.

[Ronni Christiansen]

Jose:

I think you are really on point when you say there is unclarity as to which procedures etc. Require community involment.

I do not think its realistic to ever expect a big company to want to venture into any sort of negotiation if it has to be publicly debated first. They just dont operate like that.

With the New structures leadership will be mandated by election from the community so in that sense as leadership will be in reality accountable via election hopefully it will improve the sense of ownership in process because i dont think it will ever be realistic to have public debates on specific negotiations with large companies.

If that is not acceptable we need to find a system where membership payment or something similar can fund the future initiatives.

--

[C Hamilton]

Ronni,

I don't think the protest is against secrecy in negotiations, but secrecy in changing a (written or unwritten) policy. There should have been a transparent policy debate about whether putting ads into Joomla installations was a good idea. If it was deemed to have merit, then there should have been a transparent debate about what qualities potential advertisers should have.

Looking at it from Google's perspective: Companies have to know that the ventures they are entering into have the support of the organization they are dealing with. Google spent resources developing this proposal. Individuals within Google spent social capital (their reputations) by supporting the development of this proposal. Now that the proposal is found not to be viable, and in ways that could have been anticipated by Joomla leadership had the matter been handled differently, Joomla as an organization, and those individuals within Joomla who worked on the proposal have lost credibility with Google, and possibly with other companies who might be approached for proposals.

The answer to these situations in an organization that relies on volunteers is not more secrecy, but introducing a culture, and perhaps even governing documents, that result in transparency of the debate leading up to the decision to negotiate with a particular company. When the broad parameters of the negotiation are decided in open deliberations by the governing body with the appropriate authority, and specific individual(s) from the organization are given the authority by the governing body to enter into negotiations, secret negotiations are more likely to become successful business ventures.

Christina Hamilton

[Paulo Faustino]

“I do not think its realistic to ever expect a big company to want to venture into any sort of negotiation if it has to be publicly debated first. They just dont operate like that”

As it seems to me, the issue is not the negotiation per se, but the fact that the community don’t see a benefit in starting a negotiation for ads inside the joomla admin.

I think what everyone else is saying is that before starting such a negation, the idea of negotiate with Google to add ads should have been discussed openly. What would have changed? Well, if the community were to be respected, no negotiations would have started so there would be no need to keep anything in secrecy.

 

Now let’s entertain the possibility of the community being pro negotiating with Google. Then these negotiations should have been kept within the Joomla Org. Structure, but not secret to a specific team. Every organization have multiple persons tracking and contributing to every negotiation, it´s keps private within the organization but not within one team of the organization.

 

 

Best Regards,

Paulo Faustino

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[ssnobben]

> Charge for JED listings
Bad idea. There are some extensions that are popular and expensive and developers make "a lot" of money with them, other extensions are not profitable at all. Both kinds are important. You cannot charge the same amount for each listing, and you cannot take a fair share of revenue - because you cannot know what the revenue is per extension. Ask the big guys to sign up for sponsorships. Don't force anyone to pay.

Why? I dont agree about this and its depending how you do this.No one want to be forced to pay anything without getting anything back.And you can not charge the same amount for each listing but Is this the dilemma "I dont understand that I dont understand" that I found for 10 years too with some Joomla directory developers.

Have you not been into a system/business model were you deliver value and then get paid by the value you deliver in the end?

One example that people may understand bcs they use it every day in 12 years about..

Everything sits under your noose every day = Google that doing that = deliver value a n d only get paid when they deliver a value to a customer = a click on an ad for a certain key word.  You only agree to pay a value i f you get it delivered and it works the same with a directory - nobody pay something upfront that they can n o t judge what is worth! Like get listed and dont know if you get any business value transferred to you by quality & volume = lead, contact, request, quote etc etc

Ok you dont understand how to do that with JED?

Ok thats a different story and I can teach you. I tried 10 years to get technical developers & directories like Mosets Tree, Hot Property etc to understand and latest I suggest this to JV directory Nirawan  2015-10-19 to do this: pay per lead/quote/requests/article or whatever... so just do it for JED too! This should have been part of the pre-analysis how the "new" JED directory should have been modelled with extra external Google ads also.

Its not a debate about using Fabrik,CCK etc or mootools/jquery or router or libraries its about a business advertising/listing/pay-per-lead model that w o r k s! and that you dont need to be a technicians to understand (or you dont)..If Joomla have listening to clever brains in the Joomla community, run the process differently with transparency with forum discussions the new JED have had this feature already.

This business model can be transferred to Joomla JED.  And its a selective payment solution depending on listing factors ie like listing types, listing type price(s), volumes etc. Did the technical dev guys thinking about this crucial revenue model to get some revenue for Joomla when doing the new JED? No - you guess right bcs they didnt have this skill, knowledge and understanding themselves.

We are all voluntarily working with Joomla but its good if Joomla use all resources in good way for this project to survive long term. So hope we all listening to the whole community & its brains when Joomla take decision forward for Joomla.

- Its not about the code its about the people doing things together.The code will always be obsolete...

[Cyril Rezé]

Hi,

There you can find a way to help find more funding to ensure Joomla! future,
without the need to rely on an outside-the-community source of income :
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/joomla-dev-cms/Hm33kbXlawE

And some stats :
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/joomla-dev-cms/Hm33kbXlawE/I15u7Z40BgAJ

;-)

[wdburgdorf]

@ssnobben

pay-per-lead model that w o r k s!

Ok, that's how Adwords work, pay per click. The popular extensions, which supposedly make the most money, receive most clicks so according to this model would pay the most. But: It is these extensions that bring the greatest value to the community, too.
So, this model may be something to consider. Still, somehow it doesn't *feel3 right to me.
Anyway, I think it would be worth opening a new thread for monetizing discussions rather than getting into details here ...

[Cyril Rezé]

@wdburgdorf
Look here at the proposal: nothing is imposed, open to all, answers financial issues : https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/joomla-dev-cms/Hm33kbXlawE

"Invest in our future" "Make it happen"

[Tomasz Kisielewski]

What about extensions with free lite version and paid pro? Many people use only free version and how we know revenue of paid extensions. It may cause more harm than good, or I just did get it all wrong?

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[ssnobben]

On Thursday, 5 November 2015 14:42:50 UTC+1, wdburgdorf wrote:

@ssnobben

pay-per-lead model that w o r k s!

Anyway, I think it would be worth opening a new thread for monetizing discussions rather than getting into details here .

..

Agree but have this discussion in the Joomla forum pls. 

The popular extensions, which supposedly make the most money, receive most clicks so according to this model would pay the most. But: It is these extensions that bring the greatest value to the community, too.

Not necessarily. You can have a mix payout limit for say 10 USD/per month/day/year/minute etc for each extension(s) and/or developer and that could be flexible and in conjunction with an subscription/affiliate system too ie like Akeeba subscription with this pay-per-lead commission based system where Alpha User Points could be the blocks to build around.. You pay a credit for 10 USD per month/year/ etc and do the payment when you got your first lead ie pay 10 dollar. Then for each lead you take away one point/dollar.. so you prepay a batch that is valid for one year let say 10 dollar and for that you get 10 leads could be like downloads - not clicks and you pay for each of these dl an amount etc..

well I know these system in my head so pls let me know if you want to understand them.

There are many now that uses this model...You can see it working for system like quotes etc example ServiceStart http://uk.servicestart.com/showFAQ.do

Does it cost anything for me to use Servicestart?

No, as a buyer of service it's free to register requests and receive quotes from potential service providers.


https://www.infohub.com/site-information/referral-program.html

Introduction InfoHub.com - the largest online portal for specialty travel and vacations. InfoHub.com is well recognized by the worldwide press and has received numerous acclaims. Over 5,000 travel related businesses use InfoHub.com to advertise their travel products and services. Currently there are over 20,000 partner product offerings listed on our site covering over 100 different special interest travel themes. Cost A potential client who contacts you through InfoHub is called a customer lead. For a cost of US$100, you receive 20 exclusive customer leads. There is NO commission or any other hidden fees to pay. You will not be asked to sign a long term contract either. After your initial $100 runs out, you can add another $100 to receive additional 20 leads, and so on. If you are not satisfied with our service, you are under no obligation to continue. You can also cancel your account with us at any time with or without reason, and any unused funds in your account will be refunded to you. Special Promotion (Free Trial): if you register now, your first 5 customer leads are free of charge. If you are not satisfied with the first five leads you receive, you can simply cancel your account. We will refund your deposit in full.

[Michael Babker]

Your assumptions imply that extensions with a paid model have a profit margin that makes this feasible.  Right away I see one of two things happening: paid extension listings on the decline because the developers' profit margin doesn't give them the funding needed to make inclusion in this system feasible, or developers raise the prices of their extensions to be able to participate in this model.

Point blank: a commission based system or anything that's pay-per-whatever for paid extensions to be listed on the directory is a bad idea.

[Leo Lammerink]

I agree with the point bank statement: That is a bad idea

[Leo Lammerink]

Not all issues are suitable to have n the forums......If you have people reaction on issues on Joomla-topics who have no idea what they are talking about (and many don't have on the J-forums) any discussion get's messed

So a professional platform to discuss issues like this either here or on GLIP is highly needed and should not be stopped

Leo

[Markus Bopp]

To me the club proposal and a JTD sound best. Both give big value to the community and revenue in return.

[Leo Lammerink]

I happen to agree

Leo

On 11/5/2015 10:58 PM, Markus Bopp wrote:

To me the club proposal and a JTD sound best. Both give big value to the community and revenue in return.

[Michael Babker]

Find the resources to make a JTD happen and get buy in for support from template clubs.  The resources thing is going to stop it from getting anywhere as that's going to become another full time gig and I doubt the JED team has the time, or even desire, to take that on too.  I've seen one person raise their hand saying they're willing to help make it happen.  FWIW, the JTD thing has been on the table for several years and the last effort to launch one died off.

I still say that a totally separate directory from the JED just for templates is a bad idea.  It is a serious duplication of efforts IMO to stand up an entire new team/directory to do the same thing JED already does but only for templates.  But then again, I'm used to being ignored so I'll shut up on that now.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Markus Bopp <koeln...@gmail.com> wrote:

To me the club proposal and a JTD sound best. Both give big value to the community and revenue in return.

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[Leo Lammerink]

Michael, don't behave like a child "use to be ignored and  will shut up" People do have different opinions and is your opinion the only one that has merit? Sorry and I do understand your frustrations but these remarks are not justifiable imho

Leo

[Kalk-Post]

Hi Michael,

it's your decision, but I don't think you should "shut up".

However, that discussion about including templates in the JED has been made. It turned out that people looking for components/plugins/modules have different requirements on how to look for what they need. The new JED focuses on the search, while template seeking people would rather go by categories. The categories would at least triple in size in the JED then, probably making it unusable and maintainable.

There are plenty of these contradicting requirements, for example templates shouldn't receive ratings as they are a matter of a subject's taste and many more.

From all these point of views, it has been decided to keep templates out.

However, today I applied the 4th time to the JTD working group. There is only 1 liason member left and I honestly hope somebody there will finally add me and hopefully a few other people as well. 

I could at least start working to collect a team to make this happen if I only would get a clear "Do it" from somebody.

Regards,

Markus

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[Paul Orwig]

Hi Markus - I think all of those valid points you raised could - in principle - be addressed by re-envisioned JED 3.0, that is built for more for the way we think most people are using the internet today. OSM funded the development for JED 2.0, I think (as others have identified) that leaves volunteer resources as the main resource consraint.

I appreciate a lot that you are raising your hand repeatedly to volunteer. Maybe right now, the best step is to keep discussing the ideas and looking for a path that builds on what we have learned, and fits the realities of our volunteer community. 

Best,

paul

[Michael Babker]

As far as I was aware the JTD working group, concept, whatever was all killed off and the only remnant of it is the one entry on the volunteer portal.  For all intents and purposes, you're spinning up a new team from scratch, even that liaison spot can be considered empty.  At one point there was a functional install at http://templates.joomla.org/ and that's even gone now.

I have a knack for having opinions that go against the popular majority, usually those opinions feel more logically and technically correct until convinced otherwise, and more often than not folks go with the popular opinion.  So, that's where my feeling of being ignored comes from, right or wrong.

[Kalk-Post]

Hi Paul,

what can I say, my first application has been 2 years ago. Then I was told it will be starting as soon as the new JED has been done. The new JED has been done and now I get told to wait for JED 3.0. 

The revenue problem is not coming from the JED, it's coming from the general decline of Joomla! that has its sources more than 3 years ago. It's time to act. And a JTD will be helping a lot to gain recognition and thus revenue back.

No offence, but it's typical for Joomla!, not to be able to see opportunities right when they appear in front of its nose. That's not people's fault but how a crowd of people can behave to the "outside world".

As for the club: 4 or 5 years ago there was already a similar approach. People who are sponsoring Joomla! should be "rewarded" with a blog post and some prominent recognition in return. After I donated over a course of 6 months, donating every month, no blog post was made and the sponsoring project vanished entirely. Please don't repeat things like these with the club, I was pretty irritated about that.

@Michael:

I would be spinning up a new JTD team, if there would be an official DO from the production team.

Regards,

Markus

[Paul Orwig]

Hi Markus - I wasn't trying to tell you to wait for JED 3.0, I was trying to encourage you to help create JED 3.0.

Thanks again for wanting to take action. I hope we can find a good path forward :-)

Best,

paul

[Leo Lammerink]

Who decides that these days? " find a good path forward" curious .......

Leo

[Markus Bopp]

...but that's going to happen anyway. The JED extension should be the base for the JTD, that was the original plan.

Due to my lack of understanding about who-is-who and who is in charge, what do I need to do now?

[Paul Orwig]

Hi Markus - my suggestion - just for right now - is to keep asking questions, keep listening, keep adjusting the solution, and also keep looking for others who may want to help. I think the most important thing - just for right now - is to keep the conversation going, in a positive and respectful way, just like this has been, and to see where it leads.

If you want to start a new JTD WG, I think that's fine too. I am not sure who you should talk to about that right now. Maybe it would be better to wait until after the new structure is implemented hopefully in a few months?

[Kalk-Post]

Hi Paul,

I understand rushing isn't a good things and I welcome your suggestions. But there are exceptions to that. In a few months (few=2-4), the 1st quarter of the next year will be almost over. That's usually the quarter with most people on the web (webworkers, freelancers, etc.), with a high demand to start their new projects. These people need templates, and they often decide what CMS to use just by the template they like. Yes, that is ridiculous but unfortunately the reality.

However, if a JTD with a not so huge footprint will be able to start by January, with cleverly placed ad-slots, it will bring in recognition and cash right away, in the most important quarter of the year. That's the quarter that decides over the success of a project for the rest of the 9 months of a year. Most 3rd party devs will surely agree on that.

Regards,

Markus

[Paul Orwig]

Hi Markus - if you feel strongly about the importance to move forward quickly, I would encourage you to try and connect directly with Guillermo Bravo, who (you probably already know this) is listed on the volunteers portal as the CLT liaison for the JTD. If you have already tried that but you haven't heard back from him yet, maybe you could also try connecting directly with other current CLT members (listed on the volunteers portal for Community Leadership Team).

I still encourage you to try and be patient - it seems to me that in our volunteer community, things don't always move as fast or as efficiently as we might like, and what is a priority for you might not be as much of a priority for others.

Best,

paul

[Jessica Dunbar]

I’m typing this on my lunch break and won’t have time to answer questions until later this evening. My Goal here is to shed some light on the Analytics discussion.  

I assure you the install from web is a very minor issue of what’s going on with traffic on the JED.   I’d estimate less than 10%  -  15% traffic loss is due to the Install From Web. To give you an accurate number  I need access to a few extension developers google analytics.  (any volunteers?)

There are multiple factors in our overall traffic decline including:

• new website builds

• 1.5 extension removal

• algorithm updates

• the .org subdomains are being built and un kept or not caring about traffic and the greater Joomla.org domain authority.

• the JRD launch in 2014 lost 11k sessions overnight by not properly doing 301’s.

• The JED also made this mistake in Dec 2014 with their launch.

• Speed issues

This is only a fraction of the problems with our website maintenance.

1. Organic Traffic from the JED has been on the decline since 2012 at an alarming rate

2. http://barracuda.digital/panguin-tool/ is a tool i use to see if websites have been affected by algorithm updates. Here is a screenshot of extentions.joomla.org from 01/01/12 - today  

3. https://www.evernote.com/l/ADerP-G2g1BD8a7C4EmNkHfhJv23bYNb3IQ

4. Attached are traffic reports  throughout the years.  I’ll add a few more. Analytics just crashed on me  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_QTydv-xNbqZll1Z0J3enE5ZGlqc1U3QzB6bFdGVi1IN25j/view?usp=sharing

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Ronni Christiansen <ronni.chr...@opensourcematters.org> wrote:

Jose:

I think you are really on point when you say there is unclarity as to which procedures etc. Require community involment.

I do not think its realistic to ever expect a big company to want to venture into any sort of negotiation if it has to be publicly debated first. They just dont operate like that.

With the New structures leadership will be mandated by election from the community so in that sense as leadership will be in reality accountable via election hopefully it will improve the sense of ownership in process because i dont think it will ever be realistic to have public debates on specific negotiations with large companies.

If that is not acceptable we need to find a system where membership payment or something similar can fund the future initiatives.

Den 05/11/2015 14.28 skrev "wdburgdorf" <laus...@gmail.com>:

Just a couple of questions to understand things better:
> "negotiating a deal with Google that in reality changes Joomla from free software into shareware/adware"
If there is advertising in one small and rarely used feature that needs to be activated manually, how does that turn the whole of Joomla into adware?
(I don't know how many people actually use IFW. I never use it, so I personally wouldn't care about some ads there. Whatever the community decides is fine with me. There shouldn't be such a shitstorm just because someone dared to think about something, and negotiate, even secretly - as long as no final decision is made before asking and listening to the community.)

> Advertising on JED and joomla.org
I don't see any ads anywhere. I'd happily see a few ads if it helps funding Joomla, my adblocker is turned off on Joomla sites. But no ads for me. Even on browsers where I have not installed an ad blocker. What am I doing wrong?

And opinions:
> Certification
Yes, let me take a test and let me pay for it. I want a badge.

> Sponsorship
It exists and is of course a good idea. But it starts at $1000 - a bit too much for some freelancers. And the sponsorship page is a bit hard to find, too.

> Charge for JED listings
Bad idea. There are some extensions that are popular and expensive and developers make "a lot" of money with them, other extensions are not profitable at all. Both kinds are important. You cannot charge the same amount for each listing, and you cannot take a fair share of revenue - because you cannot know what the revenue is per extension. Ask the big guys to sign up for sponsorships. Don't force anyone to pay.

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[Paulo Faustino]

Here’s why I think that its better to have a different directory.

To me JED is already convoluted, I don’t even like to use it at all. I tend to use Google to get what I want from JED (and I not even a google enthusiast).

That said, templates have different needs (ie: categories, tags), to me it makes perfect sense to have a subdomain for JTD.

 

I said it before, I really think this can become a great source of income. The concept has already been proved by several websites like themeforest and so on.

 

If you need someone to chip in with man hour to vet templates, talk with template clubs, whatever… just let me know. I’m ready to contribute.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Paulo Faustino

 

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[ssnobben]

Michael

Your assumptions imply that extensions with a paid model have a profit margin that makes this feasible.

Your assumption is that this feature & advertising payment model will not work with extensions that have a “profit margin” of what and not work?

Why should the margin be lesser if you sell an extension for 10 USD and give 1 USD to the Joomla community other than he give that amount away to Google when he advertising his extensions?

He only pay when he gets a dl/payment of his deal. Otherwise he pays 0 USD.

Is it not fair to give Joomla community this money instead of giving it to Google? I don’t say we should take away general Google ads in JED but both can live together..

Why Michael is this a bad idea explain and elaborate why this is a bad idea? Your guess work is different from me what the outcome will be…I think also that the template club could use the same system for payment.. I have heard this 10 years and the story goes on..

Leo

I happen to agree

Leo what do you agree about and why?

Could you be more constructive and also elaborate why this is not a good model and what the alternative is if that’s what you mean?

We already see the problem coming from older JED discussions now as a result http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=867678 and this it not something new for all of us that hoped for a better solution.

Leo everybody don’t have your time to be everywhere where important discussions is held in the Joomla world today and discussions can be done privately in forums too,  if users want to create subgroups of private discussions there abut I believe that it’s good that people get used to discuss, share docs & ideas at o n e place and thats the phpBB forum. Improve it if we need more features there then.

For example I just waited for Joomla community to use Joomla Jfusion for integrate it with one SSO login for a l l Joomla services/sites too and that could have happened too long time ago and then also just install some extra phpBB mods to cover the Joomla community needs of any extra communication features. Or user of Joomla project/time management like ProjectFork….

Now we use external services Glip, BIp, SIP etc whatever when we have our own Joomla tools to promote/use in front of us and don’t support other Joomla community developer members first and ourselves using these great tools. Why?

I don’t understand.. don’t you understand that this drop people out of Joomla…see for example Jfusion how Jfusion have been handled in the Joomla community..sooo bad with such a great integration tool. If the community have supported Jfusion I am sure it could have expaned to be an integrated SAML2 SSO/Shibboleth federation tool where more companies would have look at Joomla to use in their Open Source ecco system integrate with other Open Source software like CRM, BI, EDM, ERP etc needed software. Like Google one login. We see now for example Marketing Automation Mautic that can be used with Joomla and I think there should be more focus of how Joomla can integrate with others like this and Jfusion could have been the key into that world.

Paulo

To me JED is already convoluted, I don’t even like to use it at all. I tend to use Google to get what I want from JED (and I not even a google enthusiast).

That said, templates have different needs (ie: categories, tags), to me it makes perfect sense to have a subdomain for JTD.

Yes I agree and its one of many problems with the new JED.

Often you better find the extension directly, then on the developer’s site by a Google search. This is not good for the “improved” new JED and tells you how much people use it or not and of course why the traffic have decline!

People today think/act like everything is about search and don’t understand the fundamentals about the old Mosets where you could navigate and use your own brain to find things (not search or Google search) to find what you are looking for.

A directory is not the same as a search engine you have to understand UX and user logic. But if you want Google to decide everything you should know in your life by Google searching go for it.

JED scoring one the reasons users are abandoning J

http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=262&t=896335

 

[Michael Babker]

Like I said, your plan assumes that developers are selling their extensions at rates that allow them to afford this.  Your plan assumes that every developer who sells extensions is willing to freely provide some of their profit margin to the Joomla project and that the Joomla project expects everyone who makes a living off their extensions to give back financially.  So like I said, I don't think this is an idea, as written, to pursue.  I see it hurting our ecosystem more than helping; either less developers will offer paid listings on the JED (so less money to be made by the project) or developers will have to raise prices to afford listings on the JED.

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[Kalk-Post]

Before the new JED has been planned, there were thoughts to give extension developers some extras for recognition (I can't recall what it was exactly) when they subscribe for monthly payments. That would be a way around forcing payments.

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[Tomasz Kisielewski]

I think forcing payments for JED listing is really bad idea, it won't gain any more popularity for Joomla! and even worse publicity. Why somebody should start developing paid extensions for Joomla! and be charged for doing so by Joomla! itself, it is free for WordPress and bigger user base. People my shift there. Joomla's position on CMS market is not strong enough to do it now. Joomla! could start marketplace and sell templates and extensions on commission base, but it is hard to tell if there are resources available to build and manage such marketplace (unless some commercial partners are available).

[Kalk-Post]

making such payments optional, for useful extras in return, and it would fine (I think)

[Chad Windnagle]

Hi Sarah & Ronni

I hope you had a great JWC event! Its been a while since anyone has posted in this thread, and I'm glad to see that things have calmed down regarding this topic. There is one question to me that still remains un-answered, and I feel its important enough to at least ask it one more time. 

That is this:

There's mention of funds that were expected to be attained by OSM via the site ground contract, and that expectation wasn't met. Can you shed some light on this situation? What were the actual goals and what actually was achieved? and, what is the reason (if any) that the goals weren't met (if they indeed were not). 

I asked it earlier and Ronni explained that the information wasn't publicly available. The good news is, I checked with Siteground directly, and it sounds like they would like to address my question:

https://twitter.com/SiteGround/status/661948612692307968

.@porwig @drmmr763 1/3 Hey Paul and Chad! We’d love to comment, but there's an NDA we have to respect.

2/3 We pinged OSM to be more outspoken about the terms & address the community concerns.

It sounded like the issue was that it was an NDA, which both OSM and Siteground want to be able to talk about. They mentioned that OSM was asked if they'd be willing to allow this through the NDA clause. Did that happen? What was the end result? 

If there's a way we can get this last piece cleared up that would be awesome.

Thanks for your time and attention. 

Chad

On Tuesday, 3 November 2015 13:03:36 UTC-5, Sarah Watz wrote:

The Capital Team and the board have listened to the feedback on the proposal to place a banner for Google Apps in "Install from Web". We are now focusing on looking at other possibilities and suggestions for this partnership. During the past days community members have given a lot of input to the discussion and have come up with actionable alternatives / suggestion for partnership that will be taken into account as well. Thank you for your feedback.

With warmth,
Sarah

Sarah Watz
President, Open Source Matters, Inc.
http://opensourcematters.org/

[Ronni Christiansen]

As we have posted earlier once the budget process is done it will be available as it always is as part of the open and transparent budget proces - so it should not be long.

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[Chacapamac]

For what it worth - I think Google Ad’s having a place in the Administration (With the JED presentation) is a very good idea, Why not?, but because not related to Joomla functionnality (Like the JED extensions) will have to be switch Off if not wanted by the site owner.

As for the JED itself in the administration, Here to, commercial extensions and/or all other type of services (security, hosting & others) related to Joomla should have a top Ads paying showcase why not?

[Vic Drover]

Here is the result of the 2015 re-budget that Peter Bui, Robert Deutz and myself prepared on behalf of the respected LTs. It has been approved by the existing 3-member OSM board, sent to all LT members on GLIP and EMail, and of course is available publicly:

https://volunteers.joomla.org/reports/151-re-budgeting-completed-for-2015-to-address-changes 

The report also speaks to questions regarding our revenue issues, primarily related to reduced AdSense income but also to affiliate-related revenue from Siteground (Tl:DR, we renegotiated our contract).

While this report addresses some of questions raised in this thread, I think it is primarily off-topic, so please open a new thread or forum post if there a questions about the report itself or related to revenue/expenses in general.

Cheers,

Victor Drover
Founder and CEO, Anything Digital
Co-founder, Watchful.li & jInbound.com
262-923-8200 ext. 0
Facebook: AnythingDigital | watchfulli | JInbound
Twitter: @VicDrover | @AnythingDig | @watchfulli | @JoomlaInbound

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Chacapamac <in...@grafcomm.ca> wrote:

For what it worth - I think Google Ad’s having a place in the Administration (With the JED presentation) is a very good idea, Why not?, but because not related to Joomla functionnality (Like the JED extensions) will have to be switch Off if not wanted by the site owner.

As for the JED itself in the administration, Here to, commercial extensions and/or all other type of services (security, hosting & others) related to Joomla should have a top Ads paying showcase why not?

--

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