[johnson-18] Main Halyard Question

[John]

I bought a J-18 a couple of months ago and supposedly it has never
been sailed. It is hull number 195 and has capri -johnson 18 markings.
The question i have is about the main halyard. While sorting out the
systems, i noticed the main halyard hangs up at the mast exit when
raising the main. Further inpsection revealed a the wire portion was
looped and the line is has a loop spliced in. The two loops are
intertwined and ther you go. Except it is too big to go through the
exit without some prying and twisting. I would have expected this to
be a wire-rope splice which would run through the exit smoothly.
Anybody have any info on thiers? Is it two loops or a wire-rope
splice. Any info would help.

Thanks

John

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[Mga...@aol.com]

I'm not quite sure about your description and question.  My Johnson #186 has a rope wire halyard.  To my way of thinking it is one unit.  I have never tried to remove it from the mast.  It goes in a hole in the side of the mast, up, over a roller at the masthead and down to the bottom of the mast.  There I attach the main main and pull it up the mast.  At that point there is a ball  on the wire that locks into a bracket to fix the lift on the main. after that the tension on the main is adjusted by the cunningham.  I have never tried to remove the halyard from the mast  and se no reason to do so.

[Mga...@aol.com]

where are you?

[John Barnard]

Im in charlotte nc - My question is regarding the transition fron the rope to the wire - is it supposed to be a direct wire-rope splice? On mine, the rope has a loop splice in the end and the wire has a loop in the end - the two loops are connected making it too big to go through the exit without some prying. Therefore, th main wont go all the way up without a lot of extra work.

[Robert Murphy]

I can't remember if its two loops on my boat or Brian's, but I do know
that every 18 I've been on has required a little finessing when
raising or lowering the main because you have to pop that link through
the hole. It sucks if you forget about it when you're trying to get
the main down in a hurry.

On Apr 25, 7:47 am, John Barnard <jdbarnar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Im in charlotte nc - My question is regarding the transition fron the rope
> to the wire - is it supposed to be a direct wire-rope splice? On mine, the
> rope has a loop splice in the end and the wire has a loop in the end - the
> two loops are connected making it too big to go through the exit without
> some prying. Therefore, th main wont go all the way up without a lot of
> extra work.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:32 PM, <Mga1...@aol.com> wrote:
> >  where are you?
>
> >  In a message dated 4/24/2010 7:26:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,

> > Mga1...@aol.com writes:
>
> > I'm not quite sure about your description and question.  My Johnson #186
> > has a rope wire halyard.  To my way of thinking it is one unit.  I have
> > never tried to remove it from the mast.  It goes in a hole in the side of
> > the mast, up, over a roller at the masthead and down to the bottom of the

> > mast.  There I attach the main main and pull it up *the mast.  At that

> > point there is a ball  on the wire that locks into a bracket to fix the lift
> > on the main. after that the tension on the main is adjusted by the
> > cunningham.  I have never tried to remove the halyard from the mast  and se

> > no reason to do so.*

>
> >  In a message dated 4/24/2010 5:46:39 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,

> > jdbarnar...@gmail.com writes:
>
> > I bought a J-18 a couple of months ago and supposedly it has never
> > been sailed. It is hull number 195 and has capri -johnson 18 markings.
> > The question i have is about the main halyard. While sorting out the
> > systems, i noticed the main halyard hangs up at the mast exit when
> > raising the main. Further inpsection revealed a the wire portion was
> > looped and the line is has a loop spliced in. The two loops are
> > intertwined and ther you go. Except it is too big to go through the
> > exit without some prying and twisting. I would have expected this to
> > be a wire-rope splice which would run through the exit smoothly.
> > Anybody have any info on thiers? Is it two loops or a wire-rope
> > splice. Any info would help.
>
> > Thanks
>
> > John
>
> > --
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[Jeremy Lyman]

I find pulling more horizontal than down for a moment when it binds helps raise the main, and a whack with the heel of my hand persuades it into the hole when lowering.

[John Barnard]

Thanks - that was my first thought - could be exciting to get it down in a hurry.  I'll tinker with it a bit and see if i cant get it to be smoother. Otherwise, it'll be a call to APS for a new halyard.

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Robert Murphy <zyxt...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Richard Holm]

My boat, # 185, was purchased new from JBW. The transition from wire to rope is a swaged loop to which the rope is loop spliced. I have no trouble hoisting or dousing. You just twist the swaged loop so it slips through the hole in the mast. Is it possible that swage or the rope has been replaced and is too large? I assume the rope is attached with a splice--I cannot believe any knot would go through.

Orion
185

[Glenn]

My main on #141 is the same way, a little tight but with a few 4 letter words and a quick wack from my palm the main comes down pretty quick. If you order a new one let us know how the install goes and whether it fixes your issue. My main halyard is the origional an is looking like it might need replacing soon.

---

From: Richard Holm <holm...@umn.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:19 PM
To: johnson-18...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [johnson-18] Main Halyard Question

My boat, # 185, was purchased new from JBW. The transition from wire to rope is a swaged loop to which the rope is loop spliced. I have no trouble hoisting or dousing. You just twist the swaged loop so it slips through the hole in the mast. Is it possible that swage or the rope has been replaced and is too large? I assume the rope is attached with a splice--I cannot believe any knot would go through.

Orion
185

On 4/25/2010 6:47 AM, John Barnard wrote:

Im in charlotte nc - My question is regarding the transition fron the rope to the wire - is it supposed to be a direct wire-rope splice? On mine, the rope has a loop splice in the end and the wire has a loop in the end - the two loops are connected making it too big to go through the exit without some prying. Therefore, th main wont go all the way up without a lot of extra work.

On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:32 PM, <Mga...@aol.com> wrote:

where are you?

 

In a message dated 4/24/2010 7:26:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, Mga...@aol.com writes:

[The entire original message is not included]

[Jeremy Lyman]

I seem to remember feeding a halyard through Brian's mast for some reason.  Maybe that was when he cared enough to keep them out of the weather during the off season.  Obviously it was a pain in the bass.  Make sure you've got a hook-type tool handy to fish the line through that little hole.

[John Barnard]

I tinkered with it some more yesterday - You're right, with the appropriate 4 letter words and some brute force, it works ok. I will probably order a true wire-rope halyard eventually. Reeving it through the mast is pretty straight forward. I have about 40 feet of 1x19 wire that works great a a fish tape. Used it on several masts in the past.

[Cliff]

My main halyard is the same configuration. Same issues getting the
wire-rope loops through the
slot in the mast. About 30 years ago, when this was one part of my
job, we used to charge $50
for a real rope-wire splice. Current prices may be noticeably
higher. Or not, some sailing things have
actually gotten cheaper in that time (thank you Chinese factories).

The memory chips have been almost wiped clean on how to do those
splices, otherwise I'd suggest
a splice party.

On Apr 26, 10:56 am, John Barnard <jdbarnar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I tinkered with it some more yesterday - You're right, with the appropriate
> 4 letter words and some brute force, it works ok. I will probably order a
> true wire-rope halyard eventually. Reeving it through the mast is pretty
> straight forward. I have about 40 feet of 1x19 wire that works great a a
> fish tape. Used it on several masts in the past.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Jeremy Lyman <jea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I seem to remember feeding a halyard through Brian's mast for some reason.
> > Maybe that was when he cared enough to keep them out of the weather during
> > the off season. Obviously it was a pain in the bass. Make sure you've got
> > a hook-type tool handy to fish the line through that little hole.
>

> > On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Glenn <gaharmo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> My main on #141 is the same way, a little tight but with a few 4 letter
> >> words and a quick wack from my palm the main comes down pretty quick. If you
> >> order a new one let us know how the install goes and whether it fixes your
> >> issue. My main halyard is the origional an is looking like it might need
> >> replacing soon.
>

> >> ------------------------------
> >> From: Richard Holm <holmx...@umn.edu>

> >> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:19 PM
> >> To: johnson-18...@googlegroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [johnson-18] Main Halyard Question
>
> >> My boat, # 185, was purchased new from JBW. The transition from wire to
> >> rope is a swaged loop to which the rope is loop spliced. I have no trouble
> >> hoisting or dousing. You just twist the swaged loop so it slips through the
> >> hole in the mast. Is it possible that swage or the rope has been replaced
> >> and is too large? I assume the rope is attached with a splice--I cannot
> >> believe any knot would go through.
>
> >> Orion
> >> 185
>
> >> On 4/25/2010 6:47 AM, John Barnard wrote:
>
> >> Im in charlotte nc - My question is regarding the transition fron the rope
> >> to the wire - is it supposed to be a direct wire-rope splice? On mine, the
> >> rope has a loop splice in the end and the wire has a loop in the end - the
> >> two loops are connected making it too big to go through the exit without
> >> some prying. Therefore, th main wont go all the way up without a lot of
> >> extra work.
>

> >> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:32 PM, <Mga1...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >>> where are you?
>
> >>> In a message dated 4/24/2010 7:26:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,

> >>> Mga1...@aol.com writes:
>
> >> [The entire original message is not included]
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Johnson 18 One Design -2010" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to
> >> johnson-18...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >> johnson-18-one-d...@googlegroups.com<johnson-18-one-design%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >> .

> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/johnson-18-one-design?hl=en.
>
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[Steve Troute]

# 178 is rigged with no loops, just a wire to rope splice with a small swage ball fitting  which clips to a bracket in the mast at full hoist.Very simple. Will send pic's if you'd like. The only issue with raising the Main is the boltrope on the main. An occasional spray w/Sailcote and steady pressure seems to do it. Dropping is simple, Loose the main sheet- pop the swage out of the bracket and down she goes. Watch the boom or drop it on a PFD to save the gelcoat.
Aloha,

Steve

---

From: Richard Holm <holm...@umn.edu>

To: johnson-18...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, April 25, 2010 6:19:54 AM

Subject: Re: [johnson-18] Main Halyard Question

[Jack Wimer]

On my hull 157, I have the same setup as you describe. Mine hangs, but
only a for a second as you rotate the "splice" that really isn't a
splice. I built a little topping lift set up to solve that boom-comes-
down on everything problem. When I'm trying to dock in wind, I just
pop off the vang, attach my little topping lift so that the sail
clears my bald head, and then the falling sail behaves more politely.
I'm sure no real salt would suggest this, but dude you have a hole and
you have a blob of stuff to go through it. Your have two choices. One
sophisticated and expensive (smaller blob) and one free (bigger hole).
One round bastard file and three minutes and it would be done. I would
never do such a thing, natchurallllly, but I have heard of it being
done. If you wanna get fancy, dress up the hole's edges (they are
sharp anyway, before the bastard file) with a hardening gel or
hardening glue such as JB weld. Q-tips are the tool of
choice...multiple applications in the off season followed by a little
sanding and poof, success.

Jack 157

[George Heintz]

Has anyone replaced the main backyard with straight dyneema? If so, how do you secure it. I saw dimensions for the backyard on the Johnson site. 26 ft synthetic line, but wire says "unknown length". Anybody have the proper dimensions for re placement?

[George Heintz]

Okay   its supposed to say Main Halyard!   

[Rick Paullin]

I'm not sure of the exact wire dimension, but the mast is 24' long, so 48' of dyneema should do the trick.

For a cleat, you could mount one on the mast, but dyneema is pretty slippery.  I'd say just try a knot in the v-hook and see if that works.  If you decide to go with a cleat (or a clutch), I'd recommend using a dyneema core with a braided cover.  The APS website says that when cleating dyneema, "a cover is required to provide grip, bulk and protection."  Link:  www.apsltd.com

You could use a double braid line with a dyneema core and strip half the cover from it, or buy 12-strand dyneema and add a cover at the cleat.  APS sells a cover: http://www.apsltd.com/yale-cordage-line-cover-only.html

But . . . all of that sounds like a ton of work to me, only to save a few ounces of weight aloft.  My solution was to simply widen the mast hole for the main halyard with a round file.  The better solution (also more expensive) is to modify the existing halyard with a wire-to-rope splice to replace the wire swage fitting and rope eye-splice.

Good luck!

  - Rick

[Lorenzo Rota]

OK it is 2025 and I need to replace the original wire to rope main halyard on a used J18 I  purchased in Cleaelake CA cpl of yaers ago.

Im in Ukiah CA and there isnt any sailing rigging shops within 3 hours  :(

I do not want to change sheaves at mast top cause Im worried about removing that mast cap etc and I just want to get sailing fast!

Anyways....I read the various configurations...and Im a bit confused whether Ill be able to remove the halyard to get measurements etc.

Here is what I plan to do:

1. Cut the swaged ball off wire end at the small shackle.

2. Attach thin dacron line to wire end and feed halyard down through sheaves and mast slot exit.

3. Get a new rope to wire halyard and pull it back up mast with the dacron line.

4. Reswage a ball or other to reattach the shackle.

Since Ive read about some halyards with rope to wire transitions with "loops", Im wondering if i will have problems with removing the halyard??

any tips recommended.

I am totally new to the J18 but previously sailed and maintained a Buccaneer 18 and Olson 30.

Thanks to all for this great J18 group.

Regards

Lorenzo Rota

Ukiah CA

[Lorenzo Rota]

UPDATE:

I solved part of my question by pulling the rope hayard down until the rope/wire loop transition easily exited the mast slot.   I see they added a swaged ball just above the rope/wire loops.  Anyone know the purpose of those?  Is it simply to keep the wire thimble from hitting the sheave block?

Also does anyone know what those swaged balls are called and where to get them and the tool to swage them

And does anyone know a good source to get a replacement rope/wire halyard premade for J18?

  

[Thomas Loper]

That ball is what inserts into the notch on the mast to keep the mainsail raised. Its location on the wire is important. 

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[Lorenzo Rota]

Okay great thanks for the tip I just noticed the fitting at the bottom which fits that ball on the wire. I will make sure I measure out and place the ball on the new wire at the same place. I was able to source the swage balls and a tool and a rope to wire halyard I'll post the links for those later for anyone else that wants to replace theirs

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/johnson-18-one-design/CAMn%3D31SnnNzojfkQ70tA-bjtwWxZmzXmU%3DHqaF6Ocjt%2B9WBwnQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Kurt Eickhof]

This is a problem that I had to deal with when replacing my main Haylard and line. I won’t get into the intricacies of how you pull the line in and out of the mast itself, but that is something that you will have to achieve via running an additional spare line up the mast so you can pull the new halyard back through. What I did is remove the top cast  metal piece at the top of the mast and sent it to Jason Brown at White Bear Boat Works. He replaced the wire halyard and bead and clevis in one unit and sent it back to me. All I had to do was reattach the top metal mast head and run the main wire halyard down through the mast.  He knows the dimensions  required and the length needed to set the bead for securing the halyard to the mast.  Jason has in-depth knowledge about these boats and has worked on them for many years. Please see the attached contact info.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/johnson-18-one-design/CAEWxtowK_%3DRSeU3b3WXWt6BmG4xeczT_q8xDjXznynvBv7yykA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rick Paullin]

Lorenzo -- I had similar ideas when the rope on my halyard wore out.  Does your halyard wire actually need to be replaced, or is it still okay?  I considered other options, but I ended up just replacing the rope part of the halyard (removing the top of the mast is required to do this, unless you can bring the entire mast to the repair shop).  I decided to splice the rope myself (thanks YouTube), but you could easily have it spliced at a local place (e.g., West Marine) if you drop off the halyard there.  Kurt also suggested a great idea with using Jason Brown -- years ago I toured his facility (WBBW now, formerly JBW, where the boats were built).

You mentioned buying the halyard ball fitting and a tool for it.  Did you get a type of "Hydraulic Crimping Tool" or a Nicopress type of "Manual Crimping Tool"?  I'm not sure if either tool has enough power for true swaging (as opposed to crimping).  In true swaging, the high pressure actually alters the grain structure of the metal in both the wire and the fitting.  For sidestays, I think the swaging should be done by a very expensive ($4k+) rotary swaging tool.  For halyard ball fittings, crimping may be strong enough.  Worst case, I guess if the ball slips, you could just have it re-done a different way.  If you use the crimping method, you might consider using two fittings back-to-back for a bit of insurance.

Please let us know how it works,

Rick

[Lorenzo Rota]

Hi Rick!

Thanks for response.  You hit on some of the same issues that I have been thinking about especially with respect on how to properly swage the ball.

Here are replies to your question...and more.

1. Wire need replacing?   yes..it has numerous "meat hooks" in the ends

2. Main halyard replacement - I found on both amazon and west marine halyard kits with 5/16 staset and 1/8 inch wire, 30 feet each for total 60 ft.   I will cut both ends to size. Here are links:

https://www.westmarine.com/west-marine-halyard-kit-for-1-8inch-wire-5-16inch-line-111385.html

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DNLJ7N9/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=A3D5HSSZ4QX17Q&th=1

3.Single-Shank Stainless Ball Stops - Found the Loos version and  alternate:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0038YY394/ref=ewc_pr_img_1?smid=ALAQHED7P69VI&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SZT5JJW/ref=ewc_pr_img_3?smid=A3AJK3KUI5SJIS&psc=1

https://www.westmarine.com/loos-company-1-8inch-stainless-steel-single-shank-ball-stop-111239.html

https://catalog.lexcocable.com/item/cable-fittings-hardware-double-single-shank-balls/single-shank-balls-series-ms-20664/ms-664-c5

4. Ball Swaging - 

There isn't alot of information on swaging the ball other than Loos recommends twoi of their rotary swaging machines such as :

https://loosco.com/product/tools/locoloc-m1-type-i/

But these are very expensive.

I did find this UK company Tecni  which sells this tool and die specifically made for ball fittings...also pricey but cheaper than Loos.

Tool without die:    https://tecni.uk/products/tecni-crimper-hydraulic-ycp-120c-1mm-5mm-no-dies

Die for balls : waiting on info about die for 1/8 inch ball.

I agree for halyard fitting there is not the load on main halyard as on sidestays.  

There is this cheaper hydraulic tool on Amazon that might work if i can get right die:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09372S7YD/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A2DVPPGDFW1LEJ&psc=1

Anyways the masthead fitting on mine has stripped screw heads from prior owner and maybe some corrosion ...so worried about removing it.  How much did Bear Boat works charge for the replacement you did by removign masthead fitting?

thanks

Lorenzo

[Rick Paullin]

Hi Lorenzo,

I think Kurt Eickhof sent his masthead fitting to WBBW -- I'm not sure what they would charge.

I used a local shop in Annapolis for new sidestays and I think they were about $75 each (ten years ago).

The attachments on my masthead fitting were also corroded, so I drilled them out and used new bolts.  Once you've removed the masthead, it's pretty easy to take it to wherever you do the work.

I agree with you that Loos tools have always been very pricey (but also very good quality).  Be careful when you're comparing those tools -- your link to the Loos website is for a roller swaging machine, while the Tecni and Amazon links are for hand crimping tools.  Definitely very different animals!

Good luck with your new halyard,

Rick