Kailash-Manasarovar Yatra::Saussurea inversa NSJ-OCT 16/11

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Narendra Joshi

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Oct 6, 2016, 1:18:39 PM10/6/16
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Dear All,

Saussurea inversa for validation. Photo taken just after crossing Lipulekh pass (China border) on Aug 27, 2016. Height approx 15000 feet.

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With Regards,
Narendra Joshi
Saussurea inversa 1.JPG
Saussurea inversa 3.JPG
Saussurea inversa 4.JPG

D.S Rawat

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Oct 7, 2016, 4:06:21 AM10/7/16
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Interesting Saussurea species. A trans-Himalayan one as I suppose.
S. inversa is not known in Uttarakhand.
DSRawat Pantnagar

chrischa...@btinternet.com

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Oct 7, 2016, 1:41:49 PM10/7/16
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This is a new 'species' for me but I am doubtful it is S.inversa on the basis of the image taken in Paddar Valley named as such on the FOI site see: http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Inverse%20Snow%20Lotus.html  which is presumably where the provisional name came from matching with?  Not recorded from Ladakh or known in Stewart's day (assuming it is found in W.Himalaya).  Not in 'Enumeration of Flowering Plants of Nepal'.  Many 'new' species have been described in the Himalaya in recent decades - a complicated genus (like so many). 

As for existing species, there is much confusion between S.simpsoniana and S.gossypiphora in the W.Himalaya. 

As two of our members named the image on the FOI site they are in a much better position to comment further, especially as I do not recognise these images or the one from the Paddar Valley but the images do not come close to me.

Just noticed that an article on Research Gate, see: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272383552_The_genus_Saussurea_Compositae_Cardueae_in_China_Taxonomic_and_nomenclatural_notes  states that S.sorocephala var. glabrata is raised to specific rank as S.inversa.  Stewart had S.sorocephala Schrenk as a synonym of S.gnaphalodes (which is common in Laadkh); he thought this variety seemed to be the same as S.hypsipeta Diels (yet does not list this species in his Catalogue) and probably should be considered only to be a glabrate form.   Saussurea hypsipeta is listed by Dickore & Klimes from Ladakh - there is an excellent image of it by our member Miroslav: http://www.butbn.cas.cz/ladakh/fotky/flora/subnival_eng.html.

Clearly, Miroslav may be able to comment in a more informed way than me.

J.M. Garg

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Oct 8, 2016, 12:19:22 AM10/8/16
to efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, D.S Rawat

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

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J.M. Garg

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Oct 8, 2016, 12:19:39 AM10/8/16
to efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, D.S Rawat, chrischa...@btinternet.com
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: chrischa...@btinternet.com <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Date: 7 October 2016 at 23:11
Subject: [efloraofindia:253188] Re: Kailash-Manasarovar Yatra::Saussurea inversa NSJ-OCT 16/11
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


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J.M. Garg

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Oct 15, 2016, 11:18:52 AM10/15/16
to efloraofindia, D.S Rawat, chrischa...@btinternet.com, Narendra Joshi

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

Interesting Saussurea species. A trans-Himalayan one as I suppose.
S. inversa is not known in Uttarakhand.
DSRawat Pantnagar 

This is a new 'species' for me but I am doubtful it is S.inversa on the basis of the image taken in Paddar Valley named as such on the FOI site see: http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Inverse%20Snow%20Lotus.html  which is presumably where the provisional name came from matching with?  Not recorded from Ladakh or known in Stewart's day (assuming it is found in W.Himalaya).  Not in 'Enumeration of Flowering Plants of Nepal'.  Many 'new' species have been described in the Himalaya in recent decades - a complicated genus (like so many). 

As for existing species, there is much confusion between S.simpsoniana and S.gossypiphora in the W.Himalaya. 

As two of our members named the image on the FOI site they are in a much better position to comment further, especially as I do not recognise these images or the one from the Paddar Valley but the images do not come close to me.

Just noticed that an article on Research Gate, see: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272383552_The_genus_Saussurea_Compositae_Cardueae_in_China_Taxonomic_and_nomenclatural_notes  states that S.sorocephala var. glabrata is raised to specific rank as S.inversa.  Stewart had S.sorocephala Schrenk as a synonym of S.gnaphalodes (which is common in Laadkh); he thought this variety seemed to be the same as S.hypsipeta Diels (yet does not list this species in his Catalogue) and probably should be considered only to be a glabrate form.   Saussurea hypsipeta is listed by Dickore & Klimes from Ladakh - there is an excellent image of it by our member Miroslav: http://www.butbn.cas.cz/ladakh/fotky/flora/subnival_eng.html.

Clearly, Miroslav may be able to comment in a more informed way than me. 
--- from Chris Chadwell ji.

To me it appears close to Saussurea glacialis Herder as per image herein. 


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Saussurea inversa 1.JPG
Saussurea inversa 3.JPG
Saussurea inversa 4.JPG

C CHADWELL

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Oct 15, 2016, 7:22:02 PM10/15/16
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, D.S Rawat, Narendra Joshi
Pleased to learn of this.  But Saussurea glacialis is not on 'The Plant List' as an accepted name.  Nor is
the synonym in the link.  Can you say which species it is included under in 'The Plant List'?

Saussurea remains a difficult genus with frequent mix-ups.  May I request (and this applies for every plant of
every genus) that photographers take more than just one general shot (covering the plant's habit and flowers).
It is so helpful for reliably identifying plants to have close-ups of various parts of the flowers (or flower-heads in the
case of Saussurea) not forgetting close-ups of leaves (both upper and lower surface) plus a habitat shot or two. Nowadays
I am to take a minimum of 10-20 images per plant.  I appreciated it is demanding to do this at the highest altitudes esp.
4000-5000m but with practise one speeds up and gets into doing this automatically.

It is often so much harder to attempt to name a plant from a single image, which at times does not show the important details.
Yes, it is possible to do this is many cases but other times it becomes very difficult - and for others, using such images, it
does not help much when distinguishing between closely-related species.  Often the images in 'Flowers of the Himalaya' e.g.
though good enough when published in the early 1980s (and only economic to printed a single image per species), with the
aid of digital photography and web-sites, we need to be aiming to have, at the least, several images for each species.

At times we are trying to do the impossible with images which do not show the characteristics we need to see to be confident
as to identifications.   And we need images of a species from a number of locations, which help to illustrate intra-specific variation,
helping us not to think something belongs to a different species altogether or mistakenly that it is "new to science".

I went through Stewart again and see that S.glacialis Herder was given as a synonym for S.chthonocephala Bornm. - recorded from Chitral but not Ladakh.  It was said to be near S.thomsonii Clarke.

As for S.thomsonii this was recorded from Nubra & Tibet, described as dwarf, stemless, coriaceous, heads small, congested. Like a dwarf S.atkiinsonii - which was recorded as common on alpine meadows in Kashmir.

I note that Dickore & Klimes record S.glacialis from Ladakh.


Best Wishes,


Chris Chadwell


81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK








From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: D.S Rawat <drdsrawat...@gmail.com>; chrischa...@btinternet.com; Narendra Joshi <nare...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, 15 October 2016, 16:18
Subject: Fwd: [efloraofindia:253131] Kailash-Manasarovar Yatra::Saussurea inversa NSJ-OCT 16/11

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.
Some earlier relevant feedback:
Interesting Saussurea species. A trans-Himalayan one as I suppose.
S. inversa is not known in Uttarakhand.
DSRawat Pantnagar 
 
This is a new 'species' for me but I am doubtful it is S.inversa on the basis of the image taken in Paddar Valley named as such on the FOI site see: http://www.flowersofindia.net/ catalog/slides/Inverse%20Snow% 20Lotus.html  which is presumably where the provisional name came from matching with?  Not recorded from Ladakh or known in Stewart's day (assuming it is found in W.Himalaya).  Not in 'Enumeration of Flowering Plants of Nepal'.  Many 'new' species have been described in the Himalaya in recent decades - a complicated genus (like so many). 

As for existing species, there is much confusion between S.simpsoniana and S.gossypiphora in the W.Himalaya. 

As two of our members named the image on the FOI site they are in a much better position to comment further, especially as I do not recognise these images or the one from the Paddar Valley but the images do not come close to me.

Just noticed that an article on Research Gate, see: https://www.researchgate.net/ publication/272383552_The_ genus_Saussurea_Compositae_ Cardueae_in_China_Taxonomic_ and_nomenclatural_notes  states that S.sorocephala var. glabrata is raised to specific rank as S.inversa.  Stewart had S.sorocephala Schrenk as a synonym of S.gnaphalodes (which is common in Laadkh); he thought this variety seemed to be the same as S.hypsipeta Diels (yet does not list this species in his Catalogue) and probably should be considered only to be a glabrate form.   Saussurea hypsipeta is listed by Dickore & Klimes from Ladakh - there is an excellent image of it by our member Miroslav: http://www.butbn.cas.cz/ ladakh/fotky/flora/subnival_ eng.html.

J.M. Garg

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Oct 16, 2016, 12:23:55 AM10/16/16
to C CHADWELL, efloraofindia, D.S Rawat, Narendra Joshi
Thanks, Chadwell ji.
Pl. check it is there:


J.M. Garg

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Nov 17, 2020, 5:21:47 AM11/17/20
to efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Saroj Kasaju, D.S Rawat
Saussurea bracteata Decne. ??
Thank you
Saroj Kasaju

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2016 at 20:48
Subject: Fwd: [efloraofindia:253131] Kailash-Manasarovar Yatra::Saussurea inversa NSJ-OCT 16/11
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

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--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.



--
With regards,
J.M.Garg
Saussurea inversa 1.JPG
Saussurea inversa 3.JPG
Saussurea inversa 4.JPG

J.M. Garg

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Nov 19, 2020, 4:19:57 AM11/19/20
to efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Saroj Kasaju, D.S Rawat
Looks different from images at Saussurea bracteata
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With regards,
J.M.Garg

Saroj Kasaju

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Nov 19, 2020, 6:57:49 AM11/19/20
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, D.S Rawat

D.S Rawat

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Nov 19, 2020, 7:45:59 AM11/19/20
to Saroj Kasaju, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi
http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000891799

Saussurea bracteata specimen in Kew Herbarium

DSRawat Pantnagar

Saroj Kasaju

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Nov 19, 2020, 7:52:43 AM11/19/20
to D.S Rawat, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi
This specimen looks like S schultzii according to the book of Klimes and Dickore. 
Some links they have merged but POWO, Klimes and Dickore book and listing ,
IPNI and BHL treats them separately.

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

Screen Shot 2020-11-19 at 18.36.51.png

J.M. Garg

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Nov 21, 2020, 4:27:45 AM11/21/20
to D.S Rawat, Saroj Kasaju, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Tabish
Hi, Rawat ji,
The specimen link of Saussurea bracteata you have sent (http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000891799) has been identified as S schultzii, if you see the details in it.
 
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J.M.Garg

J.M. Garg

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Nov 21, 2020, 4:39:38 AM11/21/20
to Saroj Kasaju, D.S Rawat, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Tabish

Saroj Kasaju

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Nov 21, 2020, 6:13:55 AM11/21/20
to J.M. Garg, D.S Rawat, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Tabish

Thank you Mr. Garg. Finally ID is resolved! Now we have to separate two sp.

Saroj Kasaju

D.S Rawat

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Nov 21, 2020, 6:22:10 AM11/21/20
to Saroj Kasaju, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Tabish
Is the species posted by Narendra Joshi Ji is Saussurea bracteata/ S. shultzii ?

DSRawat Pantnagar
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr D.S. Rawat
Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA
eflorapantnagar displaying wild flora of Pantnagar

J.M. Garg

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Nov 21, 2020, 6:44:14 AM11/21/20
to D.S Rawat, Saroj Kasaju, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Tabish
Saussurea bracteata
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J.M.Garg

D.S Rawat

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Nov 21, 2020, 7:04:12 AM11/21/20
to J.M. Garg, Saroj Kasaju, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Tabish
To me the images posted by Narendra Joshi Ji are closer to S. glacialis or allied species in which plants are woolly in appearance.
S. bracteata as I understand and as mentioned in indian floristic literature and also in the book by Stainton (Supplement to Flowers of the Himalaya, plate-55), is a plant with distinct erect stem and long lanceolate leaves. It resembles S. obvallata in habit. 
S. bracteata and S. schultzii may be two separate species but Indian literature has merged them into S. bracteata. These may be different species but must be closer in morphology based on which indian literature merges them together.
Both of these species (S.bracteata or S. schultzii) do not resemble the images posted by Joshi Ji.

DSRawat, Pantnagar

-------------------------------------------------------
Dr D.S. Rawat
Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA
eflorapantnagar displaying wild flora of Pantnagar

J.M. Garg

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Nov 21, 2020, 7:27:39 AM11/21/20
to D.S Rawat, Saroj Kasaju, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Tabish
Thanks, Rawat ji.
Yes, you may be right (though I am not sure) as per GBIF specimens (nothing in it from India):



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J.M.Garg

J.M. Garg

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Nov 21, 2020, 7:31:08 AM11/21/20
to D.S Rawat, Saroj Kasaju, efloraofindia, Narendra Joshi, Tabish
We already have many observations of this species at Saussurea glacialis
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J.M.Garg
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