Fwd: SK280DEC28-2016:ID- 2

[J.M. Garg]

1. Dinesh Vijigiri <vijigir...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sir it may be Clematis heynei or C. gouriyana

 

2. Dear Saroj

It is nice to have more than just one or two images of a Clematis (and all other genera) to inspect but most of the 8 images taken are similar, revealing much the same information. PLEASE on future occasions with Clematis at the fruiting stage, can you take close-ups of the foliage including the undersides of the leaves.

It is always much harder to be sure about an identification at the fruiting stage as often reference images are few-and-far-between.

The suggestion of C.heynei does not fit given its known distribution in S.India - as far as I know it has not been recorded from Nepal.

It is known as the 'Deccan Clematis' on the 'Flowers of India' site.

Let us consider Clematis gouriana.

'Flora of Kathmandu Valley' lists 9 species of Clematis including Clematis gouriana which they recorded from 1667-2121m below Phulchoki. Using

their key C.gouriana is a possible species but I do not rely upon keys ONLY and one must ALWAYS wonder as to how reliable the information in Floras

is.  It seems that CURRENTLY the accepted name for what was known as C.gouriana Roxb. ex DC is now Clematis javana.

They assign the local name of 'Junge lahara' to C.gouriana AND other Clematis incl. C.buchananiana and C.montana.

They say C.gouriana is common in mixed forest flowering and fruiting in November.   Yet 'Enumeration of the Flowering Plants of Nepal' gives an

altitudinal distribution of 500-1600m.   So I cannot but wonder IF the Clematis below Phulchoki really is C.gouriana?   It MIGHT be.

Flora of Bhutan lists C.gouriana DC. on shrubs at margins of subtropical and warm broad-leaves forests @ 150-2000m flowering October to November

in both Bhutan and Sikkim. 

Stewart recorded C.gouriana from N.Pakistan in the foothill zone to 1200m.

Flora Simlensis records C.gouriana from valleys below Shimla and hilly districts throughout India @ 300-900m plus Java and the Philippines.

At present I am uncertain how to distinguish, particularly at the fruiting stage and without close-up images, between C.javana and similar species.

I have a copy of 'Clematis' by S.L.Kapoor (Flowering Plants of India, Bulletin of the National Botanic Gardens, No. 124, 1966).  The author gives a distribution from NW Himalaya to Assam and in S.India at 305-2440m.

He observes that this species is highly variable with regard to the shape, texture, venation and indumentum of the leaflets.  Apparently specimens from what was Burma approach the leaflets of C.javana....

C.triloba Heyne (now a synonym of C.heynei) is described by Kapoor.

Given my criticism of some works, I have found Kapoor's efforts  of value - extensive and thorough.  He examined a lot of herbarium specimens, appears to comment about each Clematis known from India at that time, in a way one can have confidence in.  His written descriptions and the line drawings seem of a high standard

---

from Chadwell ji.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
Date: 29 December 2016 at 14:28
Subject: SK280DEC28-2016:ID
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>, "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>

Dear members 

Location: Nagarkot, Nepal 

Altitude: 7000 ft.

Date: 28 December 2016

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. 

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.

[Saroj Kasaju]

Dear All,

I agree not many images from different angles. The plant was 

situated on a slope without any access . All pictures were shot

with 800 zoom lens . That is all I could submit 

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

[C CHADWELL]

I quite understand but can I REQUEST all photographers to search for accessible specimens

which allow you them to take the necessary close-ups.  And have a camera which can take macro-shots. 

MOST digital compacts have wonderful lenses these days with close-up facilities.  They are light-weight,

fitting easily into a short pocket (see my recent post about photographing plants any month of the year).

It is great that members post images and I wish to ENCOURAGE not discourage but unless the images

submitted show the necessary detail/characteristics, it can be very difficult to impossible to identify to species.

The same situation exists for traditional pressed specimens for depositing in herbaria - unless one can see the

often ESSENTIAL parts of the plant then a reliable identification often cannot be performed.

Furthermore, such images tend not to help others RELIABLY identify the species when checked/compared with.

ONE of the objectives/aspirations of eFI is not just to identify the plants images of which have been sent in but

to have a selection of images for EACH species which show CHARACTERISTIC/DIAGNOSTIC features.

In the past it was only economic to take one or two shots per plant, which tended to be 'general' views. 

Even such excellent guides as 'Flowers of the Himalaya' is now so dated photographically and OFTEN does

NOT show DIAGNOSTIC characteristics.

Nowadays one can take as many shots per plant as one likes - I OFTEN take 15-20, sometimes 30.

Returning to "inaccessible" flowers.  Yes, particularly in forests, flowers of trees, tall shrubs and tall climbers

can be difficult to reach.

Furthermore, there can be 'risks' in such places.  On my first visit to Nepal, I encountered Giant Himalayan

Stinging Nettles and leeches for the first time - which make plunging enthusiastically into thick vegetation less

appealing!  On my one and only visit to Meghalaya I came alarmingly close to a snake (could not tell if it was

venomous or not and I was alone at the time)....

So care needs to be taken but there is no escaping the need to get amongst vegetation and tolerate such

unwelcome guests as leeches.

One of the advantages of concentrating upon plants at higher altitudes in Trans-Himalaya is that

there are no such creatures to avoid!

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; Dinesh Vijigiri <vijigir...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 23 January 2017, 10:24
Subject: Re: SK280DEC28-2016:ID- 2

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks a lot,  Chadwell ji and Saroj ji

Cc: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; Dinesh Vijigiri <vijigir...@gmail.com>

[Saroj Kasaju]

31 January 2017

Finally some close ups !

Validation please .

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 9:05 AM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks a lot,  Chadwell ji and Saroj ji

Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; Dinesh Vijigiri <vijigir...@gmail.com>

[C CHADWELL]

Whilst the closer images, with more of them are welcome - taken in January which

is especially pleasing.   They may not be sufficient to enable me to 'determine' the specimen.

Having images of the leaves are useful, especially the underside as well.

However, it can be difficult to decide without viewing the flowers.  ANY image whether of

flowers, fruits or foliage is informative but characteristics of the fruits are often less well studies. 

I SHALL take a look at my reference material to see if I can narrow things down but it MAY

still require views of the flowers.  So PLEASE obtain these, IF you are in a position to later this year.

I realise this all seems rather involved, having taken two sets of photos now, however, for MOST

genera, there are few (IF ANY) references for the fruits of a genus and OFTEN no way of reliably

distinguishing between them on the basis of fruits alone.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; Dinesh Vijigiri <vijigir...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 31 January 2017, 15:32

Subject: Re: SK280DEC28-2016:ID- 2

31 January 2017

Finally some close ups !

Validation please .

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 9:05 AM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks a lot,  Chadwell ji and Saroj ji

Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.co m>; C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.c om>; Dinesh Vijigiri <vijigir...@gmail.com>

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks,  Chadwell ji and Saroj ji

On 1 Feb 2017 12:47 a.m., "C CHADWELL" <chrischa...@btinternet.com> wrote:

Whilst the closer images, with more of them are welcome - taken in January which

is especially pleasing.   They may not be sufficient to enable me to 'determine' the specimen.

Having images of the leaves are useful, especially the underside as well.

However, it can be difficult to decide without viewing the flowers.  ANY image whether of

flowers, fruits or foliage is informative but characteristics of the fruits are often less well studies. 

I SHALL take a look at my reference material to see if I can narrow things down but it MAY

still require views of the flowers.  So PLEASE obtain these, IF you are in a position to later this year.

I realise this all seems rather involved, having taken two sets of photos now, however, for MOST

genera, there are few (IF ANY) references for the fruits of a genus and OFTEN no way of reliably

distinguishing between them on the basis of fruits alone.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet.com>; Dinesh Vijigiri <vijigir...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>

[Gurcharan Singh]

  Forwarding for ID

Distributed as  Clematis gouriana ? 

Group discussion at

Fwd: SK280DEC28-2016:ID- 2 (google.com)    

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 6:46:01 PM UTC+5:30 JM Garg wrote:

Thanks,  Chadwell ji and Saroj ji

On 1 Feb 2017 12:47 a.m., "C CHADWELL" <chrischa...@btinternet.com> wrote:

Whilst the closer images, with more of them are welcome - taken in January which

is especially pleasing.   They may not be sufficient to enable me to 'determine' the specimen.

Having images of the leaves are useful, especially the underside as well.

However, it can be difficult to decide without viewing the flowers.  ANY image whether of

flowers, fruits or foliage is informative but characteristics of the fruits are often less well studies. 

I SHALL take a look at my reference material to see if I can narrow things down but it MAY

still require views of the flowers.  So PLEASE obtain these, IF you are in a position to later this year.

I realise this all seems rather involved, having taken two sets of photos now, however, for MOST

genera, there are few (IF ANY) references for the fruits of a genus and OFTEN no way of reliably

distinguishing between them on the basis of fruits alone.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

www.shpa.org.uk

---

From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; Dinesh Vijigiri <vijigir...@gmail.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

[Gurcharan Singh]

 Forwarding for ID

Distributed as  Clematis gouriana ? 

Group discussion at

Fwd: SK280DEC28-2016:ID- 2 (google.com)    

[Saroj Kasaju]

This location has plenty of C. buchanania and have not seen other sp.

So it could be the same. However, I shall try for fresh images in coming

season.

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

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[Saroj Kasaju]

Same location.

Clematis buchananiana DC.??

https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/2452267571

https://www.gbif.org/occurrence/1576157761 

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju