Nuance of 棲み分け

[Warren Smith]

"棲み分けについてはXXX社長との直接交渉が必要かと思います。"

 

In a court case about collusion and price-fixing, I think the above is the key phrase in the email I am looking at, so I want to make sure I get this exactly right.

 

Weblio glosses "棲み分け" as "living apart; habitat isolation; habitat segregation."

 

Given that dividing the market is not explicitly stated (and not absolutely, unequivocally obvious from the email), I need to leave that a little bit vague (rather than imposing my interpretation on the sentence.) Most verbs in English I considered for 棲み分けrequire a direct object, so I have to provide one. Thus my initial take on this sentence was "Regarding how to divvy things up, I think it is necessary to negotiate directly with President XXX."

 

Whenever I translate, I always try to envision how an attorney might exploit every word choice I make. I can envision the witness being examined: "You talked about 'divvying things up.' What, exactly, did you mean by 'things'?" This of course would confuse the witness; the Japanese sentence had no word that would be translated as "things."

 

I'm not sure the best way to handle this sentence, to avoid the possibility of such a confusing interrogatory...

 

(For the record, I deliberately used the awkward "Janglish" construction of "Regarding...," to emphasize the 棲み分けphrase, rather than the more natural English-sounding construction where this phrase would be at the end the sentence.)

 

Warren Smith

 

Here is a bonus issue from this email: "Meetingは「暖簾に腕押し、糠に釘」といった感じでした。"

I ended up translating this as "I got the feeling that the meeting was a waste of time – "like wrestling with a shop curtain."" I left the Japanese kotowaza with a literal translation, feeling like the image is quite evocative...

[Joe Jones]

I would tread VERY carefully here because I don't think the use of this word necessarily implies collusion, or "actively" dividing a market. It could simply mean avoiding stepping on competitors' toes (and having one's own toes stepped on)... in other words the directive may be to talk to the CEO about "how to co-exist."

This kokugo dictionary explains it concisely:

デジタル大辞泉「棲み分け」の解説

すみ‐わけ【^×棲み分け】

１ 生活様式のほぼ等しい異種の生物群が、生活空間や生活時間・時期を分け、競争を回避しながら共存する現象。ヤマメが下流に、イワナが上流にすむ例など。
２ 銀行と消費者金融、トラック輸送と鉄道輸送と海上輸送のように競合関係にある業界が、それぞれの特色を生かすことで共存している状態。類似したものがうまく共存すること。「パソコンと携帯との棲み分けが曖昧になってきた」

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From: hon...@googlegroups.com <hon...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Warren Smith <Warren...@Comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 9:50 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Nuance of 棲み分け

 

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[Warren Smith]

Thank you for this, Joe.

 

I think your approach is very wise, and your caution is well taken. I worry though that "co-existence" loses the "dividing up" and setting some sort of boundaries that is implicit in the definitions that you so kindly provided.

 

I guess I will send a note to the client that says that there can (and should!) be a lot of discussion around the meaning of the word.

 

Warren

 

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[Dan Lucas]

I would agree with Joe that this does not necessarily have such a meaning.

This is a word that would occasionally be used by a company spokesman when I was talking to them about their products or areas of business, and it usually had a nuance of "differentiation" in that context. "From the outside it may appear that Company A is a competitor, but if you look at the situation at the product level you'll find that there is a clear 棲み分け, and we really don't end up バッティング much blah blah blah."

Regards,

Dan Lucas

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[Herman]

I don't think the terminology "divvying things up" is at all
appropriate, because it in itself suggests something like collusion and
price-fixing, whereas the term 棲み分け does not.

棲み分け, in a business context, can probably be rendered as "segmentation".


Herman Kahn

On 11/15/22 06:50, Warren Smith wrote:
> "棲み分けについてはXXX社長との直接交渉が必要かと思います。"
>
> In a court case about collusion and price-fixing, I think the above is
> the key phrase in the email I am looking at, so I want to make sure I
> get this exactly right.
>
> Weblio glosses "棲み分け" as "living apart; habitat isolation; habitat
> segregation."
>

> Given that dividing the _market_ is not explicitly stated (and not

> absolutely, unequivocally obvious from the email), I need to leave that

> a little bit vague (rather than imposing _my_ interpretation on the

> sentence.) Most verbs in English I considered for 棲み分けrequire a
> direct object, so I have to provide one. Thus my initial take on this

> sentence was "Regarding how to _divvy things up_, I think it is

[Warren Smith]

What is "divvying things up" if not "segmentation" (aside from the fact that it is the less formal tone required by this email, and lacking a potentially misleading nuance)?

 

If "divvying things up" hints at collusion, then that is what I am going for. In the definition posted by Mr. Jones, the term (in biology) is explicitly defined as partitioning the living space to enable coexistence *while avoiding competition*. By that definition (which is used, by extension, in business is well), using a translation that merely "suggests" anti-competitive behavior might actually be erring on the other side; perhaps I should have stated this anti-competitive aspect explicitly.

 

For what it's worth, despite "segmentation" appearing in some J-E dictionaries for 棲み分け, when I think of "segmentation" (after 6 years of business school), I think of a very different concept, one where the market is analyzed into different clusters of preferences, and goods or services are provided to serve those preferences; avoidance of competition doesn't enter into it, and this market segmentation is certainly not something that would be negotiated with the president of a competitor.

 

(I suppose there is also supplier segmentation, that prevents vertical integration, to thereby prevent competition, but this is not the first concept that would come to mind...)

 

W

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Herman' via Honyaku E<>J translation list [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 6:54 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of 棲み分け

 

I don't think the terminology "divvying things up" is at all

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[Herman]

On 11/16/22 07:36, Warren Smith wrote:
> What is "divvying things up" if not "segmentation" (aside from the fact
> that it is the less formal tone required by this email, and lacking a
> potentially misleading nuance)?
>
> If "divvying things up" hints at collusion, then that is what I am going
> for. In the definition posted by Mr. Jones, the term (in biology) is
> explicitly defined as partitioning the living space to enable

> coexistence */_while avoiding competition_/*. By that definition (which

> is used, by extension, in business is well), using a translation that
> merely "suggests" anti-competitive behavior might actually be erring on
> the other side; perhaps I should have stated this anti-competitive
> aspect explicitly.

Avoiding competition in biology and anti-competitive behavior in a
business sense are two substantially different senses of "competition".
Establishing a strong niche market for one's products that effectively
prevents another company from entering that market would be an example
of 棲み分け and would be a case of "avoiding competition", but not in the
sense of "anti-competitive practices such as price-fixing".

Herman Kahn

[Mika J.]

Good question, good discussion.

The English expression of “divvying things up” unfortunately conveys the false assumption to the English reader that such “things” do exist and are being talked about that are to be divvied up. By contrast, 棲み分け in Japanese stays clear of acknowledging such “things” even existing anywhere in the universe. 棲み分け is a very careful word choice deserving careful attention by the translator. This Japanese expression is all about the players finding their own separate habitats in the natural environment as noted by the kanji choice of 棲.

The word “segmentation” also conveys to the readers in English a strong sense that “something” is there to be segmented when no such “something” is being referred to in this snippet of the source text.  

> If "divvying things up" hints at collusion, then that is what I am going for.

 As far as this particular 棲み分け expression is concerned, we’re not there yet. 

Mika Jarmusz 

　

 

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[Warren Smith]

Thanks, Mika. Your comment is greatly appreciated.

 

 

---

From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mika J.
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2022 3:10 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of 棲み分け

 

Good question, good discussion.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/honyaku/CAM1PFZKOSK8kq7H1j5zMYjd2PH7sorZ%2Bx-7bYH%2BODVbe8JE74g%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dale Ponte]

Interesting puzzle...  It seems there almost ought to be a word or term involving the jointly/mutually sense of "co-." Gropingly, "coordinated," "copresence," and "cooperative" are the nearest I can come up with.

Dale Ponte 

[Dale Ponte]

Googling "mutual existence" turns up the following:

|The Business Court's opinion by Judge Tennille on summary judgment -- and the Court of Appeals opinion -- turned on the meaning of the word "competition.  McKinnon urged a very broad definition saying that Basofil "competed" with CV Industries because they both sold product to the furniture industry.  Both Judge Tennille and the COA rejected that argument.  The COA said that "competition":
entail[s] more than mutual existence in a common industry or marketplace; rather, it requires an endeavor among business entities to seek out similar commercial transactions with a similar clientele.

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/overly-persistent-plaintiff-socked-with-93458/.

Another case discussing "mutual existence" vs "competition" where "Several years after leaving, the plaintiff moved from a position in direct competition with his former employer to one that involved a different segment of the furniture industry":
https://www.parkerpoe.com/news/2011/07/north-carolina-court-of-appeals-defines-competitive-activities

Here one finds "mutual coexistence" in the context of "business-ecosystem":
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355451653_Transaction_Analysis_of_Business-Ecosystems

And perhaps this is relevant:
"In defending from infringement claims for our clients, we have protected our clients from frivolous infringement claims (e.g. trolls) and negotiated mutual existence agreements to keep companies with similar brands safe."

https://jpwebb.us/our-services/dispute-resolution/

Dale Ponte

[Warren Smith]

This is very interesting. Thanks for sending!

 

Warren

 

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From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ponte
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2022 1:03 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of 棲み分け

 

Googling "mutual existence" turns up the following:

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[JamesALockhart]

Dale, this is fascinating! In business contexts, this mutual existence sounds like a perfect match for 棲み分け as per the nuances described by Mika and in the 大辞泉 definition someone (you?) posted earlier. Would you mind if I quoted you in the J<>E Translation group on Facebook?

Jim Lockhart

Yamaguchi

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 3:04:04 AM UTC+9 morines...@gmail.com wrote:

Googling "mutual existence" turns up the following:

The Business Court's opinion by Judge Tennille on summary judgment -- and the Court of Appeals opinion -- turned on the meaning of the word "competition.  McKinnon urged a very broad definition saying that Basofil "competed" with CV Industries because they both sold product to the furniture industry.  Both Judge Tennille and the COA rejected that argument.  The COA said that "competition":
entail[s] more than mutual existence in a common industry or marketplace; rather, it requires an endeavor among business entities to seek out similar commercial transactions with a similar clientele.

[snip]

[Dale Ponte]

(Curiosity takes on a life of its own...)  Casting "differentiation" into the Google Sea finds:

"置き換えを棲み分けの失敗と理解する  ...  the Replacement of technology is considered as failure of the Differentiation"

https://cir.nii.ac.jp/crid/1390282680479912704

Didn't look further than this, though.  In another direction, that is, the biological feel of 棲み分け, "habitat differentiation" is apparently a mainstream biological term.  

And there's a certain virtue in its ordinariness. 

Dale

[Dale Ponte]

Why Hello Jim ~*  Long time no cyber-see.  Have betimes wondered about you, hope you've been well.

Jim wrote:

Dale, this is fascinating! In business contexts, this mutual existence sounds like a perfect match for 棲み分け as per the nuances described by Mika and in the 大辞泉 definition someone (you?) posted earlier. Would you mind if I quoted you in the J<>E Translation group on Facebook?

Yes I too find its properties and aptness kind of fascinating.  Word behavior relentlessly fascinating.  Don't mind at all being quoted.  May I join the Facebook group?  It'd be my first-ever dealing with FB, so might very likely end up giving it a berth anyway.  For now just wondering. 

Dale

[Herman]

And how would you translate 棲み分けによる共存?

Herman Kahn

On 11/22/22 05:52, JamesALockhart wrote:
> Dale, this is fascinating! In business contexts, this /mutual existence/

> sounds like a perfect match for 棲み分け as per the nuances described by
> Mika and in the 大辞泉 definition someone (you?) posted earlier. Would
> you mind if I quoted you in the J<>E Translation group on Facebook?
>
> Jim Lockhart
> Yamaguchi
>
> On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 3:04:04 AM UTC+9 morines...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Googling "mutual existence" turns up the following:
>
> The Business Court's opinion by Judge Tennille on summary judgment
> -- and the Court of Appeals opinion -- turned on the meaning of the
> word "competition.  McKinnon urged a very broad definition saying
> that Basofil "competed" with CV Industries because they both sold
> product to the furniture industry.  Both Judge Tennille and the COA
> rejected that argument.  The COA said that "competition":

> /entail[s] more than *mutual existence* in a common industry or

> marketplace; rather, it requires an endeavor among business entities

> to seek out similar commercial transactions with a similar clientele./
>
> [snip]

>
> --
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[Dale Ponte]

|棲み分けについてはXXX社長との直接交渉が必要かと思います。

For the instance at hand, dealing with "collusion and price-fixing," to my ear "segmentation" or "coexistence" sound most likely the best, the most pragmatic out what we've come up with so far, as in:

"Regarding/As for segmentation/coexistence, I think one would need to negotiate with the president directly (about that)." 

"Mutual existence" seems likely too theoretical sounding, abstract.

The kokugo dictionary's second sense as cited by Joe earlier, 「 銀行と消費者金融、トラック輸送と鉄道輸送と海上輸送のように競合関係にある業界が、それぞれの特色を生かすことで共存している状態。類似したものがうまく共存すること。「パソコンと携帯との棲み分けが曖昧になってきた」, makes me think of a working coexistence.

Dale Ponte

[Dale Ponte]

I'd probably vote for "working coexistence."  Mere "coexistence" seems ambiguous, not to the point.

Dale

[Warren Smith]

Thank you, Dale. Much appreciated.

 

W

 

---

From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ponte
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2022 9:43 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of 棲み分け

 

I'd probably vote for "working coexistence."  Mere "coexistence" seems ambiguous, not to the point.

 

Dale

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[JamesALockhart]

Hi Dale! Yeah, long time no see.

If you're not already on Facebook, I can't get you into the Translators group there because it's private (i.e., can't be viewed from outside FB).

If you're still interested, (be)friend me on FB! :) You can find me under my name.

Later,

—Jim

[JamesALockhart]

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 11:43:28 PM UTC+9 morines...@gmail.com wrote:

I'd probably vote for "working coexistence."  Mere "coexistence" seems ambiguous, not to the point.

Dale

I concur. 棲み分け indicates the opposite of collusion and price fixing.

 

On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 7:16 AM Dale Ponte <morines...@gmail.com> wrote:

|棲み分けについてはXXX社長との直接交渉が必要かと思います。

For the instance at hand, dealing with "collusion and price-fixing," to my ear "segmentation" or "coexistence" sound most likely the best, the most pragmatic out what we've come up with so far, as in:

"Regarding/As for segmentation/coexistence, I think one would need to negotiate with the president directly (about that)." 

"Mutual existence" seems likely too theoretical sounding, abstract.

The kokugo dictionary's second sense as cited by Joe earlier, 「 銀行と消費者金融、トラック輸送と鉄道輸送と海上輸送のように競合関係にある業界が、それぞれの特色を生かすことで共存している状態。類似したものがうまく共存すること。「パソコンと携帯との棲み分けが曖昧になってきた」, makes me think of a working coexistence.

—Jim Lockhart

Yamaguchi

 

[Warren Smith]

Hmmm... Thanks, Jim.

 

I think that, by definition, any time you negotiate with the president of the "competitor," you are entering into a collusionary (anti-competitive) relationship (that is, suppliers colluding against the consumers by defining a type of mutual (non-competitive) coexistence.

 

Whether or not this includes price fixing or not is unclear to me, but this is definitely collusionary...

 

Warren

 

---

From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of JamesALockhart
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2022 9:25 AM
To: Honyaku E<>J translation list
Subject: Re: Nuance of 棲み分け

 

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 11:43:28 PM UTC+9 morines...@gmail.com wrote:

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[Herman]

Although you are dealing with a case where 棲み分け was being negotiated
with the president of a competitor, it cannot be concluded on the basis
of this case alone that the term/concept 棲み分け in general in itself
implies or necessitates such negotiations. The most that can be
reasonably concluded is that 棲み分け does not rule out the possibility of
such negotiations.

Herman Kahn

On 11/24/22 08:25, Warren Smith wrote:
> Hmmm... Thanks, Jim.
>
> I think that, by definition, any time you negotiate with the president
> of the "competitor," you are entering into a collusionary
> (anti-competitive) relationship (that is, suppliers colluding against
> the consumers by defining a type of mutual (non-competitive) coexistence.
>
> Whether or not this includes price fixing or not is unclear to me, but
> this is definitely collusionary...
>
> Warren
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *JamesALockhart
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 24, 2022 9:25 AM
> *To:* Honyaku E<>J translation list
> *Subject:* Re: Nuance of 棲み分け

>
> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 11:43:28 PM UTC+9
> morines...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'd probably vote for "working coexistence."  Mere "coexistence"
> seems ambiguous, not to the point.
>
> Dale
>

> I concur. 棲み分け indicates the /opposite/ of collusion and price fixing.
>

[Dale Ponte]

There's this word out there, coopetition, a "neologism" getting 391K googits that has me wondering if it's not our holy grail:

"Coopetition is the act of cooperation between competing companies; businesses that engage in both competition and cooperation are said to be in coopetition. Certain businesses gain an advantage by using a judicious mixture of cooperation with suppliers, customers, and firms producing complementary or related products.

Coopetition is a type of strategic alliance that is particularly common between software and hardware firms. "

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/coopetition.asp 

Fished it up googling "cooperative competition."

Dale

[Dale Ponte]

I wrote:

coopetition [...] wondering if it's not our holy grail:

If not actually usable in the present case, at least conceptually perhaps.  And needless to say, there are many differently worded definitions etc. out there.

Dale 

[Toshihiro Nagasaka]

一般的な日本人の間で最初に「棲み分け」あるいは「棲み分け理論」という言葉がポピュラーになったのは、今西錦司氏(1902-1992)による1970年代以降の進化論などの一般書からです。それらの概念はあくまでも生物学、生態学、進化論に関するテーマであり、このスレッドで提案された経済的意味合いを含むcollusionやprice
fixingなどの英訳は、「棲み分け」とはまったく関係がなく、首をかしげざるを得ません。

日本語ウィキペディアによれば、今西錦司自身が英語で執筆した学術論文において「棲み分け」は「habitat
segregation」と訳されているようです。

--
Toshihiro Nagasaka
長坂俊宏