Nuance of 棲み分け

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Warren Smith

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Nov 15, 2022, 9:50:54 AM11/15/22
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"棲み分けについてはXXX社長との直接交渉が必要かと思います。"

 

In a court case about collusion and price-fixing, I think the above is the key phrase in the email I am looking at, so I want to make sure I get this exactly right.

 

Weblio glosses "棲み分け" as "living apart; habitat isolation; habitat segregation."

 

Given that dividing the market is not explicitly stated (and not absolutely, unequivocally obvious from the email), I need to leave that a little bit vague (rather than imposing my interpretation on the sentence.) Most verbs in English I considered for 棲み分けrequire a direct object, so I have to provide one. Thus my initial take on this sentence was "Regarding how to divvy things up, I think it is necessary to negotiate directly with President XXX."

 

Whenever I translate, I always try to envision how an attorney might exploit every word choice I make. I can envision the witness being examined: "You talked about 'divvying things up.' What, exactly, did you mean by 'things'?" This of course would confuse the witness; the Japanese sentence had no word that would be translated as "things."

 

I'm not sure the best way to handle this sentence, to avoid the possibility of such a confusing interrogatory...

 

(For the record, I deliberately used the awkward "Janglish" construction of "Regarding...," to emphasize the 棲み分けphrase, rather than the more natural English-sounding construction where this phrase would be at the end the sentence.)

 

Warren Smith

 

Here is a bonus issue from this email: "Meetingは「暖簾に腕押し、糠に釘」といった感じでした。"

I ended up translating this as "I got the feeling that the meeting was a waste of time – "like wrestling with a shop curtain."" I left the Japanese kotowaza with a literal translation, feeling like the image is quite evocative...

Joe Jones

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Nov 15, 2022, 10:07:24 AM11/15/22
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I would tread VERY carefully here because I don't think the use of this word necessarily implies collusion, or "actively" dividing a market. It could simply mean avoiding stepping on competitors' toes (and having one's own toes stepped on)... in other words the directive may be to talk to the CEO about "how to co-exist."

This kokugo dictionary explains it concisely:

デジタル大辞泉「棲み分け」の解説

すみ‐わけ【×棲み分け】

 生活様式のほぼ等しい異種の生物群が、生活空間や生活時間・時期を分け、競争を回避しながら共存する現象ヤマメ下流に、イワナ上流にすむ例など。
 銀行と消費者金融、トラック輸送と鉄道輸送海上輸送のように競合関係にある業界が、それぞれの特色を生かすことで共存している状態。類似したものがうまく共存すること。「パソコンと携帯との棲み分けが曖昧になってきた」



From: hon...@googlegroups.com <hon...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Warren Smith <Warren...@Comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 9:50 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Nuance of 棲み分け
 
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Warren Smith

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Nov 15, 2022, 10:23:35 AM11/15/22
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Thank you for this, Joe.

 

I think your approach is very wise, and your caution is well taken. I worry though that "co-existence" loses the "dividing up" and setting some sort of boundaries that is implicit in the definitions that you so kindly provided.

 

I guess I will send a note to the client that says that there can (and should!) be a lot of discussion around the meaning of the word.

 

Warren

 


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Dan Lucas

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Nov 15, 2022, 10:43:15 AM11/15/22
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I would agree with Joe that this does not necessarily have such a meaning.

This is a word that would occasionally be used by a company spokesman when I was talking to them about their products or areas of business, and it usually had a nuance of "differentiation" in that context. "From the outside it may appear that Company A is a competitor, but if you look at the situation at the product level you'll find that there is a clear 棲み分け, and we really don't end up バッティング much blah blah blah."

Regards,
Dan Lucas

Herman

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Nov 16, 2022, 6:53:56 AM11/16/22
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I don't think the terminology "divvying things up" is at all
appropriate, because it in itself suggests something like collusion and
price-fixing, whereas the term 棲み分け does not.

棲み分け, in a business context, can probably be rendered as "segmentation".


Herman Kahn

On 11/15/22 06:50, Warren Smith wrote:
> "棲み分けについてはXXX社長との直接交渉が必要かと思います。"
>
> In a court case about collusion and price-fixing, I think the above is
> the key phrase in the email I am looking at, so I want to make sure I
> get this exactly right.
>
> Weblio glosses "棲み分け" as "living apart; habitat isolation; habitat
> segregation."
>
> Given that dividing the _market_ is not explicitly stated (and not
> absolutely, unequivocally obvious from the email), I need to leave that
> a little bit vague (rather than imposing _my_ interpretation on the
> sentence.) Most verbs in English I considered for 棲み分けrequire a
> direct object, so I have to provide one. Thus my initial take on this
> sentence was "Regarding how to _divvy things up_, I think it is

Warren Smith

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Nov 16, 2022, 10:36:38 AM11/16/22
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What is "divvying things up" if not "segmentation" (aside from the fact that it is the less formal tone required by this email, and lacking a potentially misleading nuance)?

 

If "divvying things up" hints at collusion, then that is what I am going for. In the definition posted by Mr. Jones, the term (in biology) is explicitly defined as partitioning the living space to enable coexistence *while avoiding competition*. By that definition (which is used, by extension, in business is well), using a translation that merely "suggests" anti-competitive behavior might actually be erring on the other side; perhaps I should have stated this anti-competitive aspect explicitly.

 

For what it's worth, despite "segmentation" appearing in some J-E dictionaries for 棲み分け, when I think of "segmentation" (after 6 years of business school), I think of a very different concept, one where the market is analyzed into different clusters of preferences, and goods or services are provided to serve those preferences; avoidance of competition doesn't enter into it, and this market segmentation is certainly not something that would be negotiated with the president of a competitor.

 

(I suppose there is also supplier segmentation, that prevents vertical integration, to thereby prevent competition, but this is not the first concept that would come to mind...)

 

W

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Herman' via Honyaku E<>J translation list [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2022 6:54 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of
棲み分け

 

I don't think the terminology "divvying things up" is at all

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Herman

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Nov 16, 2022, 12:00:37 PM11/16/22
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On 11/16/22 07:36, Warren Smith wrote:
> What is "divvying things up" if not "segmentation" (aside from the fact
> that it is the less formal tone required by this email, and lacking a
> potentially misleading nuance)?
>
> If "divvying things up" hints at collusion, then that is what I am going
> for. In the definition posted by Mr. Jones, the term (in biology) is
> explicitly defined as partitioning the living space to enable
> coexistence */_while avoiding competition_/*. By that definition (which
> is used, by extension, in business is well), using a translation that
> merely "suggests" anti-competitive behavior might actually be erring on
> the other side; perhaps I should have stated this anti-competitive
> aspect explicitly.

Avoiding competition in biology and anti-competitive behavior in a
business sense are two substantially different senses of "competition".
Establishing a strong niche market for one's products that effectively
prevents another company from entering that market would be an example
of 棲み分け and would be a case of "avoiding competition", but not in the
sense of "anti-competitive practices such as price-fixing".

Herman Kahn


Mika J.

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Nov 18, 2022, 3:11:04 PM11/18/22
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Good question, good discussion.

The English expression of “divvying things up” unfortunately conveys the false assumption to the English reader that such “things” do exist and are being talked about that are to be divvied up. By contrast, 棲み分け in Japanese stays clear of acknowledging such “things” even existing anywhere in the universe. 棲み分け is a very careful word choice deserving careful attention by the translator. This Japanese expression is all about the players finding their own separate habitats in the natural environment as noted by the kanji choice of 棲.

The word “segmentation” also conveys to the readers in English a strong sense that “something” is there to be segmented when no such “something” is being referred to in this snippet of the source text.  

> If "divvying things up" hints at collusion, then that is what I am going for.
 As far as this particular 棲み分け expression is concerned, we’re not there yet. 

Mika Jarmusz 
 


 


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Warren Smith

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Nov 18, 2022, 3:35:12 PM11/18/22
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Thanks, Mika. Your comment is greatly appreciated.

 

 


From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mika J.
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2022 3:10 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of
棲み分け

 

Good question, good discussion.

Dale Ponte

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Nov 20, 2022, 12:23:47 PM11/20/22
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Interesting puzzle...  It seems there almost ought to be a word or term involving the jointly/mutually sense of "co-." Gropingly, "coordinated," "copresence," and "cooperative" are the nearest I can come up with.

Dale Ponte 

Dale Ponte

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Nov 20, 2022, 1:04:04 PM11/20/22
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Googling "mutual existence" turns up the following:

|The Business Court's opinion by Judge Tennille on summary judgment -- and the Court of Appeals opinion -- turned on the meaning of the word "competition.  McKinnon urged a very broad definition saying that Basofil "competed" with CV Industries because they both sold product to the furniture industry.  Both Judge Tennille and the COA rejected that argument.  The COA said that "competition":
entail[s] more than mutual existence in a common industry or marketplace; rather, it requires an endeavor among business entities to seek out similar commercial transactions with a similar clientele.
https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/overly-persistent-plaintiff-socked-with-93458/.

Another case discussing "mutual existence" vs "competition" where "Several years after leaving, the plaintiff moved from a position in direct competition with his former employer to one that involved a different segment of the furniture industry":
https://www.parkerpoe.com/news/2011/07/north-carolina-court-of-appeals-defines-competitive-activities

Here one finds "mutual coexistence" in the context of "business-ecosystem":
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355451653_Transaction_Analysis_of_Business-Ecosystems

And perhaps this is relevant:
"In defending from infringement claims for our clients, we have protected our clients from frivolous infringement claims (e.g. trolls) and negotiated mutual existence agreements to keep companies with similar brands safe."
https://jpwebb.us/our-services/dispute-resolution/

Dale Ponte

Warren Smith

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Nov 21, 2022, 11:33:23 AM11/21/22
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This is very interesting. Thanks for sending!

 

Warren

 


From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ponte
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2022 1:03 PM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of
棲み分け

 

Googling "mutual existence" turns up the following:

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JamesALockhart

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Nov 22, 2022, 8:52:44 AM11/22/22
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Dale, this is fascinating! In business contexts, this mutual existence sounds like a perfect match for 棲み分け as per the nuances described by Mika and in the 大辞泉 definition someone (you?) posted earlier. Would you mind if I quoted you in the J<>E Translation group on Facebook?

Jim Lockhart
Yamaguchi

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 3:04:04 AM UTC+9 morines...@gmail.com wrote:
Googling "mutual existence" turns up the following:

The Business Court's opinion by Judge Tennille on summary judgment -- and the Court of Appeals opinion -- turned on the meaning of the word "competition.  McKinnon urged a very broad definition saying that Basofil "competed" with CV Industries because they both sold product to the furniture industry.  Both Judge Tennille and the COA rejected that argument.  The COA said that "competition":
entail[s] more than mutual existence in a common industry or marketplace; rather, it requires an endeavor among business entities to seek out similar commercial transactions with a similar clientele.
[snip]

Dale Ponte

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Nov 22, 2022, 8:54:44 AM11/22/22
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(Curiosity takes on a life of its own...)  Casting "differentiation" into the Google Sea finds:

"置き換えを棲み分けの失敗と理解する  ...  the Replacement of technology is considered as failure of the Differentiation"

Didn't look further than this, though.  In another direction, that is, the biological feel of 棲み分け, "habitat differentiation" is apparently a mainstream biological term.  

And there's a certain virtue in its ordinariness. 

Dale

Dale Ponte

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Nov 22, 2022, 9:13:48 AM11/22/22
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Why Hello Jim ~*  Long time no cyber-see.  Have betimes wondered about you, hope you've been well.

Jim wrote:
Dale, this is fascinating! In business contexts, this mutual existence sounds like a perfect match for 棲み分け as per the nuances described by Mika and in the 大辞泉 definition someone (you?) posted earlier. Would you mind if I quoted you in the J<>E Translation group on Facebook?

Yes I too find its properties and aptness kind of fascinating.  Word behavior relentlessly fascinating.  Don't mind at all being quoted.  May I join the Facebook group?  It'd be my first-ever dealing with FB, so might very likely end up giving it a berth anyway.  For now just wondering. 

Dale

Herman

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Nov 22, 2022, 11:47:07 AM11/22/22
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And how would you translate 棲み分けによる共存?

Herman Kahn

On 11/22/22 05:52, JamesALockhart wrote:
> Dale, this is fascinating! In business contexts, this /mutual existence/
> sounds like a perfect match for 棲み分け as per the nuances described by
> Mika and in the 大辞泉 definition someone (you?) posted earlier. Would
> you mind if I quoted you in the J<>E Translation group on Facebook?
>
> Jim Lockhart
> Yamaguchi
>
> On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 3:04:04 AM UTC+9 morines...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Googling "mutual existence" turns up the following:
>
> The Business Court's opinion by Judge Tennille on summary judgment
> -- and the Court of Appeals opinion -- turned on the meaning of the
> word "competition.  McKinnon urged a very broad definition saying
> that Basofil "competed" with CV Industries because they both sold
> product to the furniture industry.  Both Judge Tennille and the COA
> rejected that argument.  The COA said that "competition":
> /entail[s] more than *mutual existence* in a common industry or
> marketplace; rather, it requires an endeavor among business entities
> to seek out similar commercial transactions with a similar clientele./
>
> [snip]
>
> --
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Dale Ponte

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Nov 23, 2022, 9:17:11 AM11/23/22
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|棲み分けについてはXXX社長との直接交渉が必要かと思います。

For the instance at hand, dealing with "collusion and price-fixing," to my ear "segmentation" or "coexistence" sound most likely the best, the most pragmatic out what we've come up with so far, as in:

"Regarding/As for segmentation/coexistence, I think one would need to negotiate with the president directly (about that)." 

"Mutual existence" seems likely too theoretical sounding, abstract.

The kokugo dictionary's second sense as cited by Joe earlier, 「 銀行と消費者金融、トラック輸送と鉄道輸送海上輸送のように競合関係にある業界が、それぞれの特色を生かすことで共存している状態。類似したものがうまく共存すること。「パソコンと携帯との棲み分けが曖昧になってきた」, makes me think of a working coexistence.

Dale Ponte

Dale Ponte

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Nov 23, 2022, 9:43:28 AM11/23/22
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I'd probably vote for "working coexistence."  Mere "coexistence" seems ambiguous, not to the point.

Dale

Warren Smith

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Nov 23, 2022, 9:50:06 AM11/23/22
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Thank you, Dale. Much appreciated.

 

W

 


From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ponte
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2022 9:43 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of
棲み分け

 

I'd probably vote for "working coexistence."  Mere "coexistence" seems ambiguous, not to the point.

 

Dale

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JamesALockhart

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Nov 24, 2022, 9:17:17 AM11/24/22
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Hi Dale! Yeah, long time no see.
If you're not already on Facebook, I can't get you into the Translators group there because it's private (i.e., can't be viewed from outside FB).
If you're still interested, (be)friend me on FB! :) You can find me under my name.
Later,
—Jim

JamesALockhart

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Nov 24, 2022, 9:24:56 AM11/24/22
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On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 11:43:28 PM UTC+9 morines...@gmail.com wrote:
I'd probably vote for "working coexistence."  Mere "coexistence" seems ambiguous, not to the point.

Dale


I concur. 棲み分け indicates the opposite of collusion and price fixing.


 
On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 7:16 AM Dale Ponte <morines...@gmail.com> wrote:
|棲み分けについてはXXX社長との直接交渉が必要かと思います。

For the instance at hand, dealing with "collusion and price-fixing," to my ear "segmentation" or "coexistence" sound most likely the best, the most pragmatic out what we've come up with so far, as in:

"Regarding/As for segmentation/coexistence, I think one would need to negotiate with the president directly (about that)." 

"Mutual existence" seems likely too theoretical sounding, abstract.

The kokugo dictionary's second sense as cited by Joe earlier, 「 銀行と消費者金融、トラック輸送と鉄道輸送海上輸送のように競合関係にある業界が、それぞれの特色を生かすことで共存している状態。類似したものがうまく共存すること。「パソコンと携帯との棲み分けが曖昧になってきた」, makes me think of a working coexistence.

—Jim Lockhart
Yamaguchi
 

Warren Smith

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Nov 24, 2022, 11:26:26 AM11/24/22
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Hmmm... Thanks, Jim.

 

I think that, by definition, any time you negotiate with the president of the "competitor," you are entering into a collusionary (anti-competitive) relationship (that is, suppliers colluding against the consumers by defining a type of mutual (non-competitive) coexistence.

 

Whether or not this includes price fixing or not is unclear to me, but this is definitely collusionary...

 

Warren

 


From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of JamesALockhart
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2022 9:25 AM
To: Honyaku E<>J translation list
Subject: Re: Nuance of
棲み分け

 

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 11:43:28 PM UTC+9 morines...@gmail.com wrote:

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Herman

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Nov 24, 2022, 11:38:00 AM11/24/22
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Although you are dealing with a case where 棲み分け was being negotiated
with the president of a competitor, it cannot be concluded on the basis
of this case alone that the term/concept 棲み分け in general in itself
implies or necessitates such negotiations. The most that can be
reasonably concluded is that 棲み分け does not rule out the possibility of
such negotiations.

Herman Kahn


On 11/24/22 08:25, Warren Smith wrote:
> Hmmm... Thanks, Jim.
>
> I think that, by definition, any time you negotiate with the president
> of the "competitor," you are entering into a collusionary
> (anti-competitive) relationship (that is, suppliers colluding against
> the consumers by defining a type of mutual (non-competitive) coexistence.
>
> Whether or not this includes price fixing or not is unclear to me, but
> this is definitely collusionary...
>
> Warren
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *JamesALockhart
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 24, 2022 9:25 AM
> *To:* Honyaku E<>J translation list
> *Subject:* Re: Nuance of 棲み分け
>
> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 11:43:28 PM UTC+9
> morines...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'd probably vote for "working coexistence."  Mere "coexistence"
> seems ambiguous, not to the point.
>
> Dale
>
> I concur. 棲み分け indicates the /opposite/ of collusion and price fixing.
>

Dale Ponte

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Nov 24, 2022, 2:46:25 PM11/24/22
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There's this word out there, coopetition, a "neologism" getting 391K googits that has me wondering if it's not our holy grail:


"Coopetition is the act of cooperation between competing companies; businesses that engage in both competition and cooperation are said to be in coopetition. Certain businesses gain an advantage by using a judicious mixture of cooperation with suppliers, customers, and firms producing complementary or related products.


Coopetition is a type of strategic alliance that is particularly common between software and hardware firms. "

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/coopetition.asp 


Fished it up googling "cooperative competition."


Dale

Dale Ponte

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Nov 24, 2022, 4:07:02 PM11/24/22
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I wrote:

coopetition [...] wondering if it's not our holy grail:


If not actually usable in the present case, at least conceptually perhaps.  And needless to say, there are many differently worded definitions etc. out there.

Dale 

Toshihiro Nagasaka

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Nov 25, 2022, 12:25:09 AM11/25/22
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一般的な日本人の間で最初に「棲み分け」あるいは「棲み分け理論」という言葉がポピュラーになったのは、今西錦司氏(1902-1992)による1970年代以降の進化論などの一般書からです。それらの概念はあくまでも生物学、生態学、進化論に関するテーマであり、このスレッドで提案された経済的意味合いを含むcollusionやprice
fixingなどの英訳は、「棲み分け」とはまったく関係がなく、首をかしげざるを得ません。

日本語ウィキペディアによれば、今西錦司自身が英語で執筆した学術論文において「棲み分け」は「habitat
segregation」と訳されているようです。

--
Toshihiro Nagasaka
長坂俊宏

Warren Smith

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Nov 25, 2022, 12:35:40 AM11/25/22
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Thank you, Nagasaka 様

Hearing from someone who has actually heard this word used is very useful.
Much appreciated.

"Habitat segregation" is a great word -- in the context of environmental
science or biology. In the tone of an informal English-language email about
dealing with a competitor, however, this word wouldn't work too well.

Perhaps "negotiate *our separate domains*" might have been a better choice
than my "divvy things up."

Thanks again for your input,

Warren Smith


-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Toshihiro Nagasaka
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2022 12:25 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of 棲み分け

一般的な日本人の間で最初に「棲み分け」あるいは「棲み分け理論」という言葉がポ
ピュラーになったのは、今西錦司氏(1902-1992)による1970年代以降の進化論などの
一般書からです。それらの概念はあくまでも生物学、生態学、進化論に関するテーマ
であり、このスレッドで提案された経済的意味合いを含むcollusionやprice
fixingなどの英訳は、「棲み分け」とはまったく関係がなく、首をかしげざるを得ま
せん。

日本語ウィキペディアによれば、今西錦司自身が英語で執筆した学術論文において
「棲み分け」は「habitat
segregation」と訳されているようです。

--
Toshihiro Nagasaka
長坂俊宏

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JamesALockhart

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Nov 25, 2022, 8:23:21 AM11/25/22
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I see what you mean, Warren; these guys were looking for a way to create a 棲み分け situation for their businesses. _That_ might be collusion, but businesses being in a 棲み分け relationship does not _itself_ constituent or entail collusion; as several of us have explained, 棲み分け itself tends to come about organically. The term also stems from a 自動詞; i.e., does not entail any agent acting with volition.

HTH,
—Jim

Herman

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Nov 25, 2022, 1:43:17 PM11/25/22
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On 11/24/22 21:35, Warren Smith wrote:
> Thank you, Nagasaka 様
>
> Hearing from someone who has actually heard this word used is very useful.
> Much appreciated.
>
> "Habitat segregation" is a great word -- in the context of environmental
> science or biology. In the tone of an informal English-language email about
> dealing with a competitor, however, this word wouldn't work too well.
>
> Perhaps "negotiate *our separate domains*" might have been a better choice
> than my "divvy things up."
>
> Thanks again for your input,
>
> Warren Smith
>

I understand Mr Nagasaka to be saying that 今西 coined or used the term
棲み分け as a translation of the biological/ecological term "habitat
segregation", and from there, the term expanded to refer to analogous
"segregation" more broadly, so in that regard, using "habitat
segregation" (in quotes) would be one possible translation even in a
business context (implying not literally *habitat* segregation, but the
same concept applied by analogy to some other sphere; using 棲み分け to
refer to "segmentation" in the sense of two companies operating in
different market segments would be one example of such use by analogy).

One way to evaluate the appropriateness of a translation is to look at
it from the other direction. So, for example, if the translation were
instead from English into Japanese, "negotiate our separate domains"
could idiomatically be rendered using the Japanese term 縄張り, while
"divvy things up" (where "things" is ostensibly a vague reference to
something like "the market") could be rendered as 分割 (as in 市場分割協定).


While there could be 市場分割による棲み分け, I don't think that 棲み分け alone
could be read to mean 市場分割. For one, 棲み分け is generally understood to
be a good thing, whereas 市場分割 seems to imply a bad, collusive, illegal
activity.

Here is one example of these terms being used together:

https://www.npa.go.jp/chotatu/chotatsu/kaikeigyoumu_kentoukai/140326_kentoukai_betsu2.docx

「恐れているのは、もしかしたら市場分割が行われているのではないかということで、実は縄張りがあり、すみ分けができてしまっているということである。
談合とか市場分割とか決めつけている訳ではないが、兵庫県警察本部だけでなく、全国21都府県でそういうことが起こっていないか、今後、警察庁で継続的に確認することが大事である。」


Herman Kahn



sam

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Nov 26, 2022, 6:17:41 PM11/26/22
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I'm very belatedly joining in to offer my two cents - this is either my very first post here or the first in many years and I am hoping this goes through this time. Great discussion by the way and excellent points already made. 

As this is for litigation according to the OP and based on my experience interpreting for litigation where there are translated documents (not translated by myself) involved, it is likely to be scrutinised by the lawyers where they may ask about that term to the Japanese person and if 棲み分け has been translated as "coexist(ence)" for example, it can easily be translated back as "共生" or "共存" which can be problematic unless the interpreter is aware of and is constantly monitoring their output to ensure they use the original Japanese term every time "coexist(ence)" comes up in relation to that context. So I would stick with somehow expressing the nuance of 棲み分けing (already explained in detail by others above) if possible and err on the side of being literal/being led by the source language/sounding slightly unnatural.

Seigo

On Saturday, November 26, 2022 at 5:43:17 AM UTC+11 :

Dale Ponte

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Nov 26, 2022, 6:42:09 PM11/26/22
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Googling "Japan" with "sumiwake" finds near the top a downloadable master’s thesis all about 棲み分け, "Protecting Defense: Making Sense of Japan's Post-WWII Arms Procurement Policies," by seemingly an NJS (her handling seeming so intimate) at Georgetown University.  Here's its abstract:


This research explores the root of the conventional practices of sumiwake in Japan’s post-war defense industry and procurement policies, which have minimized domestic competition between firms thus rendering the industry costly and inefficient. It attempts to provide explanations as to why the Japanese government has pursued the custom of sumiwake to date despite knowing that absence of competition will necessarily generate inefficiencies in production and procurement of arms.

https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/handle/10822/1043809


Its opening paragraph runs:


"One key characteristic of Japan’s defense procurement system is that there are

conventional practices of sumiwake (棲み分け), which intentionally protects contractors

from competing with one another by allocating them production of different arms or

splitting the share of a contract to multiple contractors. Although sumiwake was never

articulated as a blueprint (i.e. it was not promoted as “Sumiwake Policy”), it is a tendency

that persists today since its advent in the late 1960s." 


By thus describing and analyzing 棲み分け in this context for thirty-some pages, this paper translates the concept into English quite effectively   


Dale


Dale Ponte

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Nov 26, 2022, 7:59:49 PM11/26/22
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"One key characteristic of Japan’s defense procurement system is that there are

conventional practices of sumiwake (棲み分け), which intentionally protects contractors

from competing with one another by allocating them production of different arms or

splitting the share of a contract to multiple contractors. Although sumiwake was never

articulated as a blueprint (i.e. it was not promoted as “Sumiwake Policy”), it is a tendency

that persists today since its advent in the late 1960s." 


From this it seems like some form of, or multiple-word term involving "contract/-ing" might make for a handy rendition.  I wonder whether Ms. Kato in her paper ever offers something term-for-term. 


Dale Ponte

Lucinda Lohman-Oota

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Nov 26, 2022, 8:14:38 PM11/26/22
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Carving up a market?
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Japan 658-0032
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Dale Ponte

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Nov 27, 2022, 8:00:08 AM11/27/22
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Here's perhaps the most germane passage from Ms. Kato's paper:


"These uniquely Japanese defense policy events have had important implications

for Japan’s defense industry; they have essentially rendered the military market small, with

its Self Defense Force (SDF) as the only viable customer, in which then economies of scale

is not possible. As the sole consumer of defense, the government has adopted a

procurement mechanism that allocates contracts very carefully, so as to allow coexistence

of a large number of firms. Sumiwake – literally translated as “habitat isolation”, is a

process of intentional allocation of procurement order or contract work designed to prevent

internal competition among firms.  Sumiwake have taken three main different forms. First,

JDA has sought to prevent competition by ordering specific types of arms consistently to

the same firms, as mentioned in the introduction. As a result, it has led to creation of

“territories” of systems within the industry by creating the “go-to” firm for specific arms.

Second, JDA has deliberately split a single contract among multiple contractors. For

example, in the procurement of Patriot, missile systems, Mitsubishi Electric and Nissan

Motors received sufficient subcontracting work even though MHI was chosen the prime

contractor.  Third, JDA has procured the exact same system from multiple firms. As

already mentioned, submarines are a shining example of this; JDA has procured a single

submarine from the only two shipbuilders in the country with production capability, MHI

and KHI, alternatively every year since 1977. In essence, procurement is designed so that

there will be no clear winners and losers of the recipient of the production."  (pp. 4-5)


I can't help wondering if this term got adopted due significantly to its respectability as conferred by the ecologist/anthropologist Imanishi Kinji, as pointed out earlier by Nagasaka様.  It would therefore have sounded nice and natural, organic and evolutionary; to gloss over the fact of its being an imposed form of 'cultivation'.  Or something along such lines..  


Dale Ponte 

Herman

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Nov 27, 2022, 3:11:39 PM11/27/22
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The author defines sumiwake as "a process of intentional allocation of procurement order or contract work designed to prevent internal competition among firms". It is not entirely clear to me what the somewhat oxymoronic expression "internal competition among firms" means - maybe the author meant to say "competition among firms in the Japanese defense industry"? In any case, especially given the fact that there is only one customer (SDF), practices intended to allow coexistence of a large number of firms, including ones that supply the same or similar products, and the resulting situation, is a situation of maintaining "competition" in an economic sense, while if there were to be one clear winner that dominated the market, that would be a situation of lack of competition.  I don't think the above definition of sumiwake is generally correct, nor does the author's use terminology such as "competition" make much sense.

Herman Kahn


Warren Smith

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Nov 28, 2022, 12:43:50 PM11/28/22
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This thread has been so interesting! Many thanks to all participants.

 

While my original posting was mostly just a check to see if this phrase might have a common idiomatic meaning beyond its dictionary meaning, it was interesting to find that this phrase is slippery enough that Mr. Kato decided to leave it in Japanese in his paper -- an acknowledgement that, in his mind at least, it has no English-language equivalent.

 

Be that as it may, in retrospect, I wish I would have translated this as "negotiating our mutual co-existence" (instead of "negotiating how to divvy things up").

 

If I end up having to take the stand over this one, this long thread has left me very well equipped to discuss this word!

 

I am quite grateful to my colleagues who have been so generous with their time in discussing this.

 

Warren Smith

 

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Dale Ponte

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Dec 9, 2022, 9:10:15 AM12/9/22
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後の祭り, but a direct-import way of putting it seems worth hanging upon this thread for all time:


“as for/regarding the sumiwake [system/arrangement/structure/network/framework/state of affairs/など], one might need to …


This should outright force a discussion around the meaning of it, from general to contextual.


Dale

Warren Smith

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Dec 9, 2022, 11:05:33 AM12/9/22
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Thanks.

 

I think this would have been a good solution.

 

W

 


From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ponte
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2022 9:10 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Nuance of
棲み分け

 

後の祭り, but a direct-import way of putting it seems worth hanging upon this thread for all time:

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