meaning of "gambaru"
Mark Spahn
An executive had been to a trade show and reported to the
employees that the competition was showing some really neat
stuff. Sounded neat to me anyway. Then he said we can't lose to
these guys, so がんばりましょう. Which I translated as
something like "So let's roll up our sleeves and get to work."
Despite the deadline, this bothered me even at the time. But
the more I think about it, the worse it gets. This industry has
been hit hard by the recession. No doubt they've been
downsized and the employees are overworked. When they read
this, they're going to think "Roll up our sleeves?? What does he
think we've been doing for the past...."
From a pep talk standpoint, it's a disaster.
Which makes me realize I've misunderstood がんばる all
these years. Maybe because I'm lazy I've associated it with
effort. But the key part is that you put out the effort because
you're highly motivated. がんばる implies a goal and the
satisfaction of reaching it, or even the enjoyment of being
dedicated to that goal, or finding fulfillment in the act of
knocking yourself out. Like I say, hard concept to grasp if
you're lazy. But clearly leaving out the motivation part was a
mistake. Next time it comes up I'm going to have to think about
this a lot more.
Thanks for these thoughts, Tom, but I'm not sure
your original understanding is wrong. My impression
is that your translation of がんばりましょう as
something like "let's persist in our efforts" is correct,
but that, upon reflection, this is not something that
the pep-talker should have said.
I too have thought (and still think) that がんばる
implies effort, but not necessarily high motivation or
satisfaction with making an effort. Is this understanding
wrong? Well, how do we decide such a point?
By consulting a definition (here, from 新明解国語辞典)
〔「我（ガ）に張る」の変化という〕
途中に起こるいろいろな障害に堪えて、
しなければならない事を最後までやり通す。
i.e., がんばる means completing your assigned task
despite any obstacles that may pop up along the way.
This is a description of effort, with no reference
to motivation or satisfaction in the struggle or in
the final accomplishment.
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
Tom Donahue
> Thanks for these thoughts, Tom, but I'm not sure
> your original understanding is wrong. My impression
> is that your translation of がんばりましょう as
> something like "let's persist in our efforts" is correct,
> but that, upon reflection, this is not something that
> the pep-talker should have said.
idea where the employees of this particular company would
fit on a scale from twiddling thumbs to sleep deprived.
If it's the former, then "let's get to work" may be just what
people want to hear. If not, then better think of something
else.
> i.e., がんばる means completing your assigned task
> despite any obstacles that may pop up along the way.
> This is a description of effort, with no reference
> to motivation or satisfaction in the struggle or in
> the final accomplishment.
developers of spiffy product x? There is always a part
they talk about everything that went wrong. Of course
they always overcome it by a がんばる effort = long
hours in the lab. But that's all in the past. I'm not
sure how to project it into the future.
--
Tom Donahue
Minoru Mochizuki
issue, I wish to say that I have lived all my life intentionally avoiding
the act of "gambaru."
If someone asks me if it is possible to live without gambaring, I would say
yeah as I proved it myself.
Minoru Mochizuki
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Tom Donahue
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 6:54 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: meaning of "gambaru"
Mark Spahn
> Incidentally, completely off the main flow of discussion on the captioned
> issue, I wish to say that I have lived all my life intentionally avoiding
> the act of "gambaru."
>
> If someone asks me if it is possible to live without gambaring, I would
> say
> yeah as I proved it myself.
>
> Minoru Mochizuki
This is interesting, but could you please give some insight into
what exactly is meant or implied by がんばる.
Is this definition correct?:
途中に起こるいろいろな障害に堪えて、
しなければならない事を最後までやり通す。
or looking forward to what one is trying to accomplish?
Does mere grim, dreary, plodding effort suffice?
Or does がんばる imply enthusiasm too?
Minoru Mochizuki
to me.
For example, a person can be an elite person in an organization so that an
extra personal effort may accelerate him in to an enviable position, say
presidency. In such a case, it is ganbari with enthusiasm.
In another case, a person may be a sick person tied to a sick bed being
allowed to live day by day and never had an easy comfortable life because he
had no skill to sell, in which case ganbaru can simply mean a will to
survive to see the sun next morning as he is simply told to do so by his
nurse because the nurse thought it is her duty to tell him so.
So it all varies. In my case, I more or less drifted through the world
living here and there with minimum ganbari but was fortunate enough to have
a family and to live to an age close to the average male life expectancy
rather comfortably up to this point. The only thing is that I cannot feel
proud of anything. That is what you have to be content with in return for
not ganbaring.
Minoru Mochizuki
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Spahn
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 10:52 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: meaning of "gambaru"
Uwe Hirayama
as you know "ganbaru" is used quite frequently in Japan
and it is one of a groop of words that are object of
thoughts and feelings of mine that are near to something like
dislike or even hate. I mean when I had been living in Japan
I was confronted with ganbaru (the other words are yume and
roman) in situations in which I, if I lived in Germany, would
not have thought of "trying hard(er)", "make (hard) efforts" or
whatever the dictionaries may have proposed.
However, when it comes to translation of "ganbarimashou" or
"yoku ganbatta, ne" or "ganbatte kudasai", I have made up my
mind and use what Germans are proposed to use in such
situations. We rather use expressions related to luck or
fortune. E.g. when a mother says to her daughter "ganbatte"
before an exam, a German mother would rather say "viel Gluck"
(good luck) than "viel Erfolg" (much success) or even "Streng
dich an" (try hard).
In the biz world, "viel Erfolg" may fit better, as "ein
erfolgreiches neues Jahr" (I wish a successful new year) seems
to be a common greeting at the end of the year.
In the situation Tom Donahue has described, I do not understand
what he menas with "neat stuff", however, addresses as "ich hoffe,
wir konnen dem etwas entgegensetzen" (I hope that we be able to
compete) or, if the executive prefers to use more "biz talk",
something like "lassen Sie uns alle Krafte bundeln, um nicht
ins Hintertreffen zu geraten/um es noch besser zu machen" (let's
focus all our forces/competences/possibilities to keep up with
them/to make it even better) would be more appropriate. Since
these are no standard phrases, I even guess, there may be no
"aisatsu" as used by Japanese.
I wonder whether the utterance of "ganbaru" is somewhat automatic,
i.e. when there is a defined situation, the zyousiki/常識 requires
that people say ganbarimasyou or ganbatte kudasai, and, therefore,
people use such expressions without that much thinking, or whether people
using ganbaru do really feel that they will have to try harder or
to make substantial efforts. If the latter is true, I will look for
further solutions for the translation of 'ganbaru'.
IMHO in Japanese social culture there are more situations in which
people use standardized expressions (aisatsu) then we do in Germany.
This may be a hint for that the Japanese society may have preserved
more feudalistic structures than the so called 'advanced' societies
in at least Western Europe and North America and Australia/NZ
(However, this is just an individual observance and I cannot provide
any proved evidence for this 主張.)
The usage of ganbaru seems to be standardized and Japanese "zyousiki"
tells the people when to use it. BTW zyousiki 常識 is a further expression
belonging to the above mentioned group.
Just my 2 cents to this very interesting topic,
Uwe Hirayama
JP2GER TRSL
hira...@t-online.de
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Laurie Berman
On Dec 13, 2009, at 4:58 AM, Uwe Hirayama wrote:
> as you know "ganbaru" is used quite frequently in Japan
> and it is one of a groop of words that are object of
> thoughts and feelings of mine that are near to something like
> dislike or even hate. I mean when I had been living in Japan
> I was confronted with ganbaru (the other words are yume and
> roman) in situations in which I, if I lived in Germany, would
> not have thought of "trying hard(er)", "make (hard) efforts" or
> whatever the dictionaries may have proposed.
movies), and the loved ones hover around yelling "Ganbatte!" I get
the feeling that if the person dies, it's going to be his/her fault
for not trying hard enough.
Laurie Berman
Mark Spahn
> I wonder whether the utterance of "ganbaru" is somewhat automatic,
> i.e. when there is a defined situation, the zyousiki/常識 requires
> that people say ganbarimasyou or ganbatte kudasai, and, therefore,
> people use such expressions without that much thinking
Such greetings-type speech is just habitual and is
guided by the precedents one hears in similar situations
when growing up. To an outsider who actually considers
the meaning of the expression, such a common,
overused expression can get annoying.
A Japanese business executive who had occasion to
interview (in English) people in Brazil, told me he came
to be irritated at how often he got the answer
"More or less" whenever he asked a question
that allowed for an "extent" answer. Apparently
"more or less" is the English version of a very common
expression in Portuguese, so common that people
use it automatically, without thinking.
Probably every language has expressions that,
to an outsider, are overused.
Off topic, but in trying to find how to say "more or less"
in Portuguese, I found this about
"Ignacio Moreira of Lisbon, Cartographer in Japan 1590-1592":
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1150308
Kirill Sereda
http://maiarilimeira.spaces.live.com/
Mais ou menos?
Vocês notaram como tem gente que usa certas palavras que nos confundem? O "mais ou menos" é um exemplo. Quando perguntamos "Tudo bem?" e lá vem o "Mais ou menos...", eu fico pensando em vários significados: ou a pessoa está tão mal que não quer falar; ou está um pouco mal e prefere amenizar; ou está bem, e por hábito (ou medo, pq tem gente que acredita que se falar, estraga), prefere "disfarçar"; ou ainda, por indiferença ou outras razões pessoais, fica no "mais ou menos".
"More or less?
Do you notice how some people use words that confuse us? The expression "more or less" is one example of that. When we ask "Are you OK?" and there comes the sacramental "More or less", I start thinking of the various meanings of the word: maybe the person feels so miserable he doesn't want to talk about it; or he is not quite OK and wants to counter the impression; or he is OK, and prefers to "dodge the question" out of habit (or fear, because some people believe that saying so openly will bring bad luck), or even because he feels indifferent or for other personal reasons, and thus remains in a state of "more or less".
Kirill
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Spahn
Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 11:24 AM
To: hon...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: meaning of "gambaru"
Mika Jarmusz
I can't give a rating on the over-usage of がんばる in the Japanese language, but to me the word is about (revving it up on) "here and now."
共に（一丸となって）がんばりましょう is "Look, we're in it together," in which がんばる is "look" and "are" combined. There may be a wide range of translation possibilities (with no single correct answer) in any given context, but a wrong rendering is still possible; if the translation imparts the sense of "if the person dies, it's going to be his/her fault for not trying hard enough" or "Roll up our sleeves?? What does he think we've been doing for the past...." then the output isn't coming out right. (OK, we've all seen bad actors who can't act the scene, but that's another story.)
> Of course they always overcome it by a がんばる effort = long hours in the lab. But that's all in the past. I'm not sure how to project it into the future.
Japanese language may have its share of cliches, but I don't see any remnant of feudalistic mindset in the word itself. Perhaps Buddhism, if only a faint trace of it? がんばる as we know it today appears to be a fairly modern term, by the way.
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
David J. Littleboy
to the sick or injured one, the sick or injured one is going to get better.
If the healthy character says "shikari shiro" to the sick or injured one,
the sick or injured one is going to die.
Sheesh, that's the first thing they teach you in melodrama 101...
David J. Littleboy
Who has watched way too much schlock TV in
Tokyo, Japan
Peter Tuffley
On 14/12/2009, at 4:17 AM, Laurie Berman wrote:
>
>>
>
> It always bugs me when someone is critically injured (on TV or in the
> movies), and the loved ones hover around yelling "Ganbatte!" I get
> the feeling that if the person dies, it's going to be his/her fault
> for not trying hard enough.
Peter
Malcolm James
> Thanks for these thoughts, Tom, but I'm not sure
> your original understanding is wrong. My impression
> is that your translation of がんばりましょう as
> something like "let's persist in our efforts" is correct,
> but that, upon reflection, this is not something that
> the pep-talker should have said.
Mark says, "persist" suggests a useful perspective--think about what がんばる
is contrasted with. In many cases, including this one where we're talking
about the present/future, ganbaru is not the opposite of "のんびりする,"
it's the opposite of "あきらめる." In Tom's context "がんばりましょう"
doesn't sound like a suggestion that the guys have not been trying hard
enough. It's the functional equivalent of pep-talk statements like "Now is
no time to give up" or "Let's go out there and give it all we've got."
Google on "go out there and keep" (include the quotation marks) for a whole
bunch of sports-related examples that are motivational rather than critical.
HTH
Malcolm
________________________________________________
Malcolm James
Fontaine Limited, Kyoto
Japanese to English translation by native speakers
web: http://www.translation.co.jp
mshib...@jcom.home.ne.jp
「共に輝く仲間」という日本語について。
共に輝く・・・かなり日本語的な表現ですが、これを英語にするとしたら？
共に努力する？共に前に進む？
FELLOWS SHARING BRIGHT PERSPECTIVE
など考えてみたのですが、ぴったり来る表現が思い浮かびません。
ある美容室に関する概要で、各チェーン店で働いている美容師の人からのコメントが
掲載されているページです。
「共に輝く」という言葉の意味を無くさないでほしいと言われたので、
困っています。
どなたかお知恵を拝借できますか？
Miyoko S
from Fukuoka
oto...@gmail.com
Maybe it's for the lack of a better/simpler/universal expression.
Off topic again, but as a brazilian portuguese native speaker, I must
say that "more or less" is a literal translation of "mais ou menos",
which has a meaning closer to "kind of", "sort of".
Tomiko.
Mark Spahn
I agree that the use of ganbaru is rather automatic most of the time.
Maybe it's for the lack of a better/simpler/universal expression.
Off topic again, but as a brazilian portuguese native speaker, I must
say that "more or less" is a literal translation of "mais ou menos",
which has a meaning closer to "kind of", "sort of".
Tomiko.
Tomiko, Thanks for this insight (I never realized it before)
that "more or less" and "kinda, sorta" both have the same
basic meaning: a simple, colloquial, unobtrusive way to say
"to some extent".
Maybe English speakers say "kinda" just as often
as Brazilians say "mais ou menos" but are so used to
"kinda" that they never notice it. Interesting.
Jonathan
a salon chain in the U.S., I'd definitely stick with something simple
and to the point like "Messages from Our Team," but it sounds like the
translation is going to be used in Japan? Perhaps partly as
decoration? And even if not, if the readers of the English are
residents of Japan, they'll hopefully be willing to accept a certain
degree of Japaneseness in the English, as being "quaint" (admittedly a
somewhat condescending reaction, but often the best one can hope for
when your client asks you to leave the Japaneseness in the
translation). With that in mind, maybe it's possible to tread the
thin line between fully Englishy and very Japanesey with something
like this:
"Messages from Our Team of Stars"
At least you've got the 共に ("team"), a little bit of the 輝く ("stars"),
and the 仲間 ("team" again), yet hopefully not too goofy-sounding? Just
a thought.
Jonathan Michaels
Monterey, CA
On Dec 13, 9:45 pm, <mshibata...@jcom.home.ne.jp> wrote:
> 「共に輝く仲間」という日本語について。
>
> ある美容室に関する概要で、各チェーン店で働いている美容師の人からのコメントが
> 掲載されているページです。
mshib...@jcom.home.ne.jp
Thanks for your posting.
提案ありがとうございます！
日本拠点の企業（美容室のチェーン）なので、海外で使うということは
ないようです。
基本的に日本語で言えることは英語でも言えるはずと言われていますが
あえて外した方が良いと事もありますね。
Sillyに思われないように。
ニュアンスも含めてもう一度考えてみます。
ありがとうございました。
Miyoko S
---- Jonathan <ist...@gmail.com> さんは書きました:
Dale Ponte
How to transmogrify this into eloquent Japanesiness ... ha!
(Words/Remarks/Gleanings/Greetings from Our)
... Team of All-Star Beauticians
... Team of All-Stars
I refrain from more fanciful ideas ;-)
Far from prajna but hope it lightens something,
Dale Ponte
... and apologies for extending this cross-thread, but what else to
do?
Dale Ponte
> ニュアンスも含めてもう一度考えてみます。
このニュアンスは、どういうふうにお読みでしょうか。
Dale
mshib...@jcom.home.ne.jp
ありがとうございます。
team of all star
はナイスですね。
Jonathanさんの提案にもStarが使われていましたが、思いつきませんでした。
私にとっては、enlightenmentです。
ありがとうございました。
Miyoko S
Thanks for enlightening me.
---- Dale Ponte <dpo...@cybermesa.com> さんは書きました:
Shinya Suzuki
> >「共に輝く仲間
>
> How to transmogrify this into eloquent Japanesiness ... ha!
>
> (Words/Remarks/Gleanings/Greetings from Our)
> ... Team of All-Star Beauticians
> ... Team of All-Stars
more like: None of us are stars, but we are shining together.
Shinya Suzuki
Fred Uleman
--
Fred Uleman, translator emeritus
Dale Ponte
> > >「共に輝く仲間
> I have some reservations about "stars." The sentiment here seems
> more like: None of us are stars, but we are shining together.
let's give it voice here in Englishdom too.
Constellation certainly comes to mind early, but there's a potential
for complexity about it I that find tricky to avert.
"(コメント from) Our Little Constellation of Beauticians"
... the Team Who Shine Together
... Who Glitter Together
... That Glitters Together
... Who Glitter in Unison
... Team-Glow of Our Beauticians
... Our Shining Circle (of Beauticians)
... By/In the Light/Glow/Shine of Each Other
... Who 輝く through (their) Cooperation/Teamwork
... Who 輝く as a Team
Okay, breakfast over, gotta mosy. In any event, on this one I'm with
Ezra Pound: "Make it new." But rather than a coinage, it's probably
better that it be familiar words in easy syntax expressing
(delivering) a fresh -- or 'foreign' -- idea, value, feeling, or
notion; or re-expressing something preexisting in an attractively new
way.
Scribble scribble,
Dale
Masako Sato
> On Dec 15, 7:02 am, Shinya Suzuki <CXP04...@nifty.ne.jp> wrote:
>
>> > >「共に輝く仲間
>
>> I have some reservations about "stars." The sentiment here seems
>> more like: None of us are stars, but we are shining together.
>
> Precisely, thanks. The Japanese is wholly about that, isn't it. So
> let's give it voice here in Englishdom too.
>
> Constellation certainly comes to mind early, but there's a potential
> for complexity about it I that find tricky to avert.
>
to excellence」くらいでもよろしいのではないかという気がいたします。英語を母語する方にはどう響くのでしょう。
Masako Sato
Dale Ponte
「共に輝く仲間」というのは、私どもには、あまりに晴れがましく、どうにも「ハズカシイ」表現なのですが、「together, we aspire
to excellence」くらいでもよろしいのではないかという気がいたします。英語を母語する方にはどう響くのでしょう。
glitz is what it wants. “Our Team of Beauty Experts” would be
perfectly natural if plain, but could easily be glitzed up. Maybe
“Our Constellation of Beauty Experts,” or put an adjective such as
“Inspired” or “Bright/Illustrious(!)” or whatever in front of “Team.”
“Aspiring,” though, as it implies that they're not yet a team of
experts (師), not quite excellent, but more like would-be's to some
degree, would probably not make for a 'successful humility' in
English.
~
Dale Ponte
Dale Ponte
ばれ！滋賀！」:
Go for it, Shiga!
2 glimmers perhaps,
Dale
Dale Ponte
Oh, and "keep at it" was heard, too, from early on in this thread.
Dale
Isshin
Two "stock" phrases come to memory from my Japanese monastery days,
that I feel like sharing:
1. がんばって
2. 御疲れ様
I think these are fantastic examples of how dictionaries simply cannot
communicate real-life experience.
If I listen to either of these with my "American-Brazilian" ears (and
not my "Japanized" ears), they seem really shocking, as it saying 1.
"try harder!" and 2. "it is/was tiring!". I think getting irritated
over expressions like these comes up when we listen to another
language "with the wrong pair of ears" (like the American executive
getting irritated over the Brazilian "mais ou menos")...
My reality in Japan was to experience these phrases as encouragements
and motivational expressions, coming from both teachers and
colleagues, with multiple meanings according to the circumstances. I
never experience them as symbolizing any kind of feudalistic
"backwardness" or lack of creativity in the Japanese language. Quite
the contrary, I´ve experienced them as very rich, useful expressions
that could transmit quite a mixture of ideas.
ganbatte - hang in there! go for it! don't give up! (also, "do your
best" and, yes "try harder" - but you sorta gotta be in trouble for it
to come at you with that meaning...).
otsukaresama - that´s the way to go! you've made/are making a good
effort! - like a recognition of the person´s "ganbaru" efforts. Also,
this would often be our greeting when crossing each other in the
corridors during the day - not reserved only for the end of the day -
sort of a mixture of "hi" and "I see you´re working hard" or "we´re
in this together, working hard" friendly recognition. And then, of
course, the senior thanking the juniors at the end of an activity with
"otsukare sama deshita"...
So I developed "Japanized" ears for hearing these expressions.
I find I miss both of these phrases immensely now that I´m no longer
in Japan. Translations and equivalent expressions just don´t seem to
work. I no longer seem to have a way of greeting people with a
simultaneous wamth of a recognition of the effort or energy they are
putting into whatever it is they're doing... There´s a feeling of
human fellowship that get's lost in the translation...
The end result is that, just as my students learn to use untranslated
words like "zazen", etc, they are also learning to recognize
"ganbatte" and "ostukare sama!"...
From what I´ve understood from the messages, I would probably
translate this particular "がんばりましょう" as something like "let's go for
it!" (to beat the competition).
So much for my 2 cent's worth... It's been fun following this thread
and reflecting on the nuances...
Gassho,
Isshin
Mark Spahn
> Two "stock" phrases come to memory from my Japanese monastery days,
> that I feel like sharing:
> 1. がんばって
> 2. 御疲れ様
>
> I think these are fantastic examples of how dictionaries simply cannot
> communicate real-life experience.
>
> If I listen to either of these with my "American-Brazilian" ears (and
> not my "Japanized" ears), they seem really shocking, as it saying 1.
> "try harder!" and 2. "it is/was tiring!". I think getting irritated
> over expressions like these comes up when we listen to another
> language "with the wrong pair of ears" (like the American executive
> getting irritated over the Brazilian "mais ou menos")...
Actually, it was a Japanese executive who was annoyed/amused
at the overuse of "mais ou menos" by Brazilians (speaking English
and saying "more or less") in whatever situation it might possibly fit.
> ganbatte - hang in there! go for it! don't give up! (also, "do your
> best" and, yes "try harder" - but you sorta gotta be in trouble for it
> to come at you with that meaning...).
>
> otsukaresama - that´s the way to go! you've made/are making a good
> effort! - like a recognition of the person´s "ganbaru" efforts.
I never realized it until you mentioned it, but
お疲れ様 is a way to say, "Thank you for your がんばるing."
Thanks for that insight.
Isshin
On 27 dez, 12:24, "Mark Spahn" <marksp...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Isshin writes:
> > Two "stock" phrases come to memory from my Japanese monastery days,
> > that I feel like sharing:
> > 1. がんばって
> > 2. 御疲れ様
>
> > I think these are fantastic examples of how dictionaries simply cannot
> > communicate real-life experience.
>
> > If I listen to either of these with my "American-Brazilian" ears (and
> > not my "Japanized" ears), they seem really shocking, as it saying 1.
> > "try harder!" and 2. "it is/was tiring!". I think getting irritated
> > over expressions like these comes up when we listen to another
> > language "with the wrong pair of ears" (like the American executive
> > getting irritated over the Brazilian "mais ou menos")...
>
> Actually, it was a Japanese executive who was annoyed/amused
> at the overuse of "mais ou menos" by Brazilians (speaking English
> and saying "more or less") in whatever situation it might possibly fit.
Oops, my carelessness... you did say/write Japanese...
>
> > ganbatte - hang in there! go for it! don't give up! (also, "do your
> > best" and, yes "try harder" - but you sorta gotta be in trouble for it
> > to come at you with that meaning...).
>
> > otsukaresama - that´s the way to go! you've made/are making a good
> > effort! - like a recognition of the person´s "ganbaru" efforts.
>
> I never realized it until you mentioned it, but
> お疲れ様 is a way to say, "Thank you for your がんばるing."
> Thanks for that insight.
My pleasure. Actually, I find it most interesting - besides with my
own students, one of the times I most miss having a good translation
for お疲れ様 is when I am lifting me feet so a cleaning person at a
hospital or park can do his/her work. I wish I could give them that
friendly recognition of their - oh, so thankless but oh, so necessary
- work.
Gassho,
Isshin
Mark Spahn
>> I never realized it until you mentioned it, but
>> お疲れ様 is a way to say, "Thank you for your がんばるing."
>> Thanks for that insight.
>
> My pleasure. Actually, I find it most interesting - besides with my
> own students, one of the times I most miss having a good translation
> for お疲れ様 is when I am lifting me feet so a cleaning person at a
> hospital or park can do his/her work. I wish I could give them that
> friendly recognition of their - oh, so thankless but oh, so necessary
> - work.
>
> Gassho,
> Isshin
I beg your indulgence to continue this conversation for one more
iteration. I associate お疲れ様 with thanks for work that is
tiring or that has been going on for at least a few hours,
but perhaps this impression is wrong. In the foot-lifting situation
you describe, which would be the more appropriate expression
of gratitude, お疲れ様, or ご苦労様 ? Or maybe something else?
And I suppose I should try answering the question, What would
be the appropriate English expression of thanks here?
Something clever or witty would be ideal, but for those of
use without such ready social facileness, a ready-made
stereotypical expression comes the rescue. Alas, I can
think of nothing better for this situation than "Thank you".
William Sakovich
going on for at least a few hours, but perhaps this impression is wrong.]]
That's what my barber tells me when she's done and removes the towel, and
all I do is sit there. She doesn't have to work any harder than usual,
either.
[[In the foot-lifting situation you describe, which would be the more
appropriate expression of gratitude, お疲れ様, or ご苦労様 ? Or maybe
something else? And I suppose I should try answering the question, What
would be the appropriate English expression of thanks here?]]
I've never seen anyone in those situations give an expression of thanks in
the English-speaking world. Instead, people do it indirectly by recognizing
their presence as human beings--hey, how's it going, nasty weather, etc.
- Bill Sakovich
Jim Lockhart
On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 23:11:05 -0500
Mark Spahn wrote:
> I beg your indulgence to continue this conversation for one more
> iteration. I associate お疲れ様 with thanks for work that is
> tiring or that has been going on for at least a few hours,
> but perhaps this impression is wrong. In the foot-lifting situation
> you describe, which would be the more appropriate expression
> of gratitude, お疲れ様, or ご苦労様 ? Or maybe something else?
> And I suppose I should try answering the question, What would
> be the appropriate English expression of thanks here?
> Something clever or witty would be ideal, but for those of
> use without such ready social facileness, a ready-made
> stereotypical expression comes the rescue. Alas, I can
> think of nothing better for this situation than "Thank you".
I think you impression is a bit off. Not only about meaning, but also
about who uses which expression to whom. お疲れ様 can be used towards
just about anybody whom you think might be a bit weary from work or
worry (provided you supply a です、でございます when addressing people
of higher position relative to yourself), whereas ご苦労様 is used in
situations where the addressee is in a lower relative position to the
addressor.
I think ご苦労様 needs to used with care, too, inasmuch as in the
situation that Isshin-san cited, ご苦労様 could sound like sarcasm.
Further お疲れ様 can also be used as a greeting, especially among
coworkers, as well as a means of recognizing someone's hard work.
If you're interested in this sort of thing, I recommend checking out み
んなの日本語事典 (明治書院, June 2009; ISBN 978-4-625-38402). This
publication takes a descriptive approach to current language usage.
HTH,
--Jim Lockhart
Hachioji, Tokyo
Nora Stevens Heath
> [お疲れ様 is] what my barber tells me when she's done and removes the
> towel, and all I do is sit there. She doesn't have to work any harder
>than usual, either.
My friends often say お疲れ様 to me, a passenger, when we've arrived at
our destination after having driven some way. Talk about just sitting
there! I don't know how I would translate it; perhaps just something
like "Phew! We're here!"
And a note on がんばる: We used to have to act out various Jorden skits
in my university Japanese class, after which our teachers would slip us
notes commenting on our performance. We also got these notes after our
exams. Mine invariably ended with これからも頑張ってください, which I
took as "Keep up the good work," not "Keep trying hard" (maybe since I
wasn't, particularly).
Nora
--
Nora Stevens Heath <no...@fumizuki.com>
J-E translations: http://www.fumizuki.com/
Doreen Simmons
"Kirei desu, ne" with a pleasant smile -- and so far this has always
been taken as a compliment. At any rate, next time we meet, the cleaner
smiles and greets me first.
FWIW,
Doreen
On 2009/12/28, at 23:16, Isshin wrote:
>
> My pleasure. Actually, I find it most interesting - besides with my
> own students, one of the times I most miss having a good translation
> for お疲れ様 is when I am lifting me feet so a cleaning person at a
> hospital or park can do his/her work. I wish I could give them that
> friendly recognition of their - oh, so thankless but oh, so necessary
> - work.
>
> Gassho,
> Isshin
>
Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp
Fred Uleman
> when I am lifting me feet so a cleaning person at a
> hospital or park can do his/her work. I wish
Isshin
I´m really enjoying the exchange of ideas and experiences over these
phrases!
My experience at the monastery (and at temples) was that the use of
the phrase didn´t necessarily have to have much to do with the actual
work that was going on or the time of day. But then, I guess some
people might possibly consider monastery life as an "all work and no
play" kind of situation, although I certainly did not feel the "being
driven like a slave" or "drudgery" so often associated with "work"
during my training there... In that particular situation, it was like
a friendly greeting, that could be used just about any time of day
when crossing each other in the halls or entering a room, also
recognizing our "business" (and we certainly were busy, all the
time!). Maybe we were recognizing to each other the fact that we were
always "busy", instead of being concerned with the level of tiredness
or hours of work...
And I would say that, at the end of an activity, it could be used as a
"thank you for your gambaru-ing"... Again, this wasn´t necessarily
connected to the "tiring-ness" of the activity or the number of hours
involved. It could also be used sort of as saying "nice job!" (incense
pots very nicely cleaned and leveled - "kirei naaa! otsukare sama!" -
cleaning and leveling incense pots is not at all tiring and does not
require much time, at least once one knows how to do it...).
But then, monastery life may have been a very special situation giving
these expressions special connotations. Maybe it wouldn´t be that way
in "ordinary" life (although I don´t remember getting strange looks
when I used it outside the monastery...).
Hmmm, now you´ve got me - while I also heard "gokurou sama" plenty of
times, too, it strikes me as a more formal, superior to inferior, kind
of expression that, while great to hear from teachers, I would not use
with a peer, only with a student (or perhaps a child). Somehow, my gut-
feeling is that if I used "gokoro sama" to the person sweeping the
floor in the hospital, it could be offensive, but somehow I don´t
sense the same offensiveness in "otsukare sama". How does that seem to
you?
Personally, when I am sitting in a hospital waiting room, I see all of
us there as human beings and do not see the person who is sweeping the
floor as an inferior. Now, I can say "thank you", "hi", "it´s a hot
day" or look for some clever comment to start up some kind of banter
but none of them give me the simplicity and friendly solidarity that
"otsukare sama" gave. It´s like there´s always something missing,
something that can´t be said in English or Portuguese.
Gassho,
Isshin
>
> I beg your indulgence to continue this conversation for one more
> iteration. I associate お疲れ様 with thanks for work that is
> tiring or that has been going on for at least a few hours,
> but perhaps this impression is wrong. In the foot-lifting situation
> you describe, which would be the more appropriate expression
> of gratitude, お疲れ様, or ご苦労様? Or maybe something else?
Isshin
cleaned, if I´m the first one in the room to be lifting up her feet
for the cleaner (and the room is a real mess), I can´t really say
"kirei desu, ne" yet... ;-P So I seem to be stuck with the simple
"thank you"...
We just finished a spell of having to go to a hospital on a daily
basis - and were always there about the time the cleaner would get to
that particular waiting area. Like your experience, the cleaner came
to always smile whenever she saw me in another part of the hospital.
Over time, it got to very friendly banter, where I was able to tease
her about "causing inconvenience with her coming and going" one day
(and she bantered back, joining in the fun) so the whole room was
having a good chuckle.
But when I tried to sympathize with the lady who was sweeping up the
cigarette butts from the entrance there, she looked at me like I was
crazy... That was a real moment of missing the good-old 'ostukare-
sama"...
Gassho,
Isshin
Mark Spahn
> Hmmm, now you´ve got me - while I also heard "gokurou sama" plenty of
> times, too, it strikes me as a more formal, superior to inferior, kind
> of expression that, while great to hear from teachers, I would not use
> with a peer, only with a student (or perhaps a child). Somehow, my gut-
> floor in the hospital, it could be offensive, but somehow I don´t
> sense the same offensiveness in "otsukare sama". How does that seem to
> you?
Yes, I should have remembered the socially important datum that
ご苦労様 is an expression used by a superior to an inferior, and so
would not be appropriate in the foot-lifting situation you describe.
One other thought: I wonder whether ご精が出ますね
-- "Hard at work there, huh?" -- would be a good
phrase of gratitude to use in the foot-lifting case.
Jim Lockhart
On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 08:48:58 -0500
Mark Spahn wrote:
> One other thought: I wonder whether ご精が出ますね
> -- "Hard at work there, huh?" -- would be a good
> phrase of gratitude to use in the foot-lifting case.
Uh, not if you don't want the person holding the mop to bop you over the
head with the handle.
This is best saved for a neighbor puttering in her garden.
--Jim Lockhart
Hachioji, Tokyo
Jim Lockhart
On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 05:47:26 -0800 (PST)
Isshin wrote:
> Although I certainly agree with you if part of the room is already
> cleaned, if I´m the first one in the room to be lifting up her feet
> for the cleaner (and the room is a real mess), I can´t really say
> "kirei desu, ne" yet... ;-P So I seem to be stuck with the simple
> "thank you"...
Well, you wouldn't say "thank you" in English in this situation because,
as ご苦労様 here, it would imply that the person was doing it _for
you_,--whether that _for you_ were as a favor or because you were the
person's boss, employer, or otherwise social superior--and therefore be
potentially sarcastic or insulting.
That said, お疲れ様 is a greeting more than it is an expression of
thanks, and it is consider a way to express your awareness that the
addressee might be tired or weary.
If you've cause another person to have to do something for you and you
wanted to express thanks, すみません will usually do the trick; or you
could say お手数、おかけしました。 ...I think. Works for me, anyway.
I don't think these expressions are especially quaint, exotic, or even
unusual (i.e., uniquely Japanese or East-Asian).
Just a couple points on the graph, mind you.
--Jim Lockhart
Hachioji, Tokyo
Doreen Simmons
for a woman, at least. Can't speak for men..
Doreen
On 2009/12/29, at 19:17, Fred Uleman wrote:
> Re:
> > when I am lifting me feet so a cleaning person at a
> > hospital or park can do his/her work. I wish
>
> I suspect お世話になります or some variation thereon (e.g., お世話さま) would also
> work in such a situation.
Doreen Simmons
jz8d...@asahi-net.or.jp
Jim Lockhart
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:12:42 +0900
Doreen Simmons wrote:
> I have also found that in this situation 恐れ入れます works like a charm --
> for a woman, at least. Can't speak for men..
Works great for men, too.
--Jim Lockhart
Hachioji, Tokyo