E to J review comments
Mika Jarmusz
書き方のスタイルは人それぞれで、
私もつい翻訳調の文章を書いてしまいますから
人ごととは思えないのですが、
一応、下記のような報告になっています。
原文と問題の翻訳も一部引用してあります。
NESの方でも、最寄りのNJSからのコメントなどがあれば
ぜひお聞かせ下さい。
-----------------------------------
Overall: I agree with the client in rejecting this translation.
Style Guide issues: Problem addressing the Target audience.
（ここでのスタイルガイドとは、簡単な英文アンケートのようなもので、
Target Audience: General Publicに印が入っているだけです。）
General comments: I'm afraid that the overall tone comes through as immature and insensitive in a clueless way. I'm positive that it was not the intended effect. I've found over the years that setting of the tone is a difficult part of translating into Japanese. A Japanese translator must first choose a voice towards the reader (such as a voice of a thoughtful mature adult introducing something exciting to the readers) and maintain it throughout the document.
This "voice/poise/positioning" issue is what makes or breaks the communication in Japanese, especially in marketing related documents, yet it tends to be glossed over in the process of En to Jp translation, perhaps because this tone differentiation is not as evident in the English language. Seemingly endless variations and grammatical permutations also makes it difficult to simply point out the errors using dictionaries and references, but the tone mismatch problem is quite obvious to just about anyone.
上の"voice/poise/positioning"に当てはまる、もっと適切な言葉があれば
その辺もよろしくお願いします。
1.
With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown [CITY] Arts District, a number of fine performing arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts.
125以上のギャラリーや美術館、博物館をかかえる[CITY] Arts Districtには、数々のパフォーミングアート会場、xxx をはじめとした見事な建築など、長年アートを培ってきたエキサイティングなダウンタウンです。
· には...です。is incorrect grammar.
· かかえる is a strange word choice. It makes the reader wonder what is being said.
· 見事な cannot simply modify 建築. It needs to be supported with "how so".
2.
Collectors and admirers alike will enjoy the [CITY] ArtWalk, a Thursday night tradition in which downtown galleries stay open late and welcome the public to special exhibit openings and artist receptions.
[CITY] Artwalkがある毎週木曜日は、ダウンタウンのギャラリーが夜遅くまで店を開け、特別展のオープニングや芸術家のパーティーに一般の人たちも歓迎されます。
· I personally wouldn't insist on explicitly spelling out "Collectors and admirers alike" part if it's properly implied in the target sentence, but unfortunately the whole sentence structure fails to capture and deliver the message.
· 夜遅くまで店を開け sounds like the stores are reluctantly having to (being forced to) open late hours.
· Subject of the passive voice ending 歓迎されます is missing. The subject doesn't always need to be spelled out, but it must be clearly implied.
3.
Performing arts aficionados will appreciate the year-round calendar of dance, theater and music performances at the [CITY] Center for the Performing Arts, while those interested in contemporary art will enjoy the [CITY] Museum of Contemporary Art, which has earned many accolades for its presentation of cutting-edge art, architecture and design.
年間を通じてダンス、演劇、音楽の公演が満載のカレンダーを誇る[CITY] Center for the Performing Artsは、
舞台芸術の愛する人を魅了することでしょう。現代美術に興味をお持ちなら、最先端の美術や建築、デザインの展示で絶賛を浴びているCITY Museum をお楽しみください。
· Disjointed sentence. It seems strange that the building captivates people.
· 興味をお持ち「なら」 comes through as immature (or 馴れ馴れしい).
· 絶賛を浴びている comes across empty and pointless. To make sense, "what is" and "by whom" does not always be spelled out, but must be properly implied.
4.
And those who would like to learn more about [CITY] 's cultural heritage won't want to miss the world renowned xx Museum, yy Museum and the seasonal, outdoor Native Trails festivals featuring Native American performances, food and arts and crafts. Come join the celebration!
さらに、CITYの伝統文化をもっと深く知りたいなら、世界に名高い博物館のxx Museumやyy Museumは必見です。また、季節ごとに戸外で開催されるxx フェスティバルは、アメリカ先住民のパフォーマンス、食事、美術工芸が楽しめます。ぜひお見逃しなく！
· もっと深く知りたいなら is another immature mode of speech.
· 楽しめます。Another example of inconsistent tone.
· ぜひお見逃しなく！ is an expression pertaining to a specific event. It back translates into "Don't miss it!" It makes the reader wonder what they are missing already.
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
Kirill Sereda
The main problem with the first sentence is that the original English sentence was parsed incorrectly. The English structure of:
1. With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown [CITY] Arts District, a number of fine performing arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts.
is “with A, B, C, [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts”, in other words, “[CITY], which has A, B, C, is a year-round celebration of the arts” (where A = “more than 125 galleries and museums”, B = “the exciting downtown [CITY] Arts District”, and C = “a number of fine performing arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX”).
The Japanese translation totally fubar :)
k
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Laurie Berman (Sekiguchi)
On 2008/08/22, at 14:18, Mika Jarmusz wrote:
>
> 1.
> With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown
> [CITY] Arts District, a number of fine performing arts venues and
> architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round
> celebration of the arts.
FWIW, there is something wrong with this English. It should be
something like,
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, a number of fine
performing arts venues, and architectural wonders including XXX, the
exciting downtown [CITY] Arts District, is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
Laurie Berman
berma...@comcast.net
Kirill Sereda
galleries and museums (b) the Arts District and (c) arts venues and
architectural wonders.
k
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com [mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Laurie Berman (Sekiguchi)
On 2008/08/22, at 15:19, Kirill Sereda wrote:
>
> I think the English is OK. The city has three categories of things (a)
> galleries and museums (b) the Arts District and (c) arts venues and
> architectural wonders.
Oh, I guess you're right.
It is a bit ungainly, though.
Mika Jarmusz
全体的に訳しにくい原文で、
翻訳もなかなか大変だっただろうと思います。
苦心の作を踏んだり蹴ったりで
ご本人には申し訳ないのですが、
なるべく前向きなコメントにしたいと思っていますので、
お気づきの点などありましたら、よろしくお願いします。
Mark Spahn
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
Tom Donahue
> With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown [CITY] Arts
> District, a number of fine performing arts venues and architectural wonders
> including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts.
>
> 125以上のギャラリーや美術館、博物館をかかえる[CITY] Arts Districtには、
> 数々のパフォーミングアート会場、xxx をはじめとした見事な建築など、
> 長年アートを培ってきたエキサイティングなダウンタウンです。
> ・ かかえる is a strange word choice.
Yes it is. A better way to put it might be
125以上のギャラリーや美術館が点在する[CITY] Arts District.
Except that they aren't all in the Arts District. It's the total for the city.
Same for the theaters and xxx (Frank Lloyd Wright's summer office,
definitely not downtown).
Makes me wonder if the translator did the geographical homework.
>長年アートを培ってきたエキサイティングなダウンタウンです。
Mistranslates year-round (年中) and celebration (祭典?）.
Arts includes performing arts, not just アート. It should be 芸術.
All in all, not good.
I thought 見事な建築 was OK though.
> Collectors and admirers alike will enjoy the [CITY] ArtWalk, a Thursday
> night tradition in which downtown galleries stay open late and welcome the
> public to special exhibit openings and artist receptions.
>
> [CITY] Artwalkがある毎週木曜日は、ダウンタウンのギャラリーが
> 夜遅くまで店を開け、特別展のオープニングや芸術家のパーティーに
> 一般の人たちも歓迎されます。
遅くまで店を開け strikes me too as a strange way to talk about
art galleries. Maybe a gallery could be a 店, but only colloquially.
How about:
ギャラリーが遅くまで開館し、特別展のオープニングや芸術家
の歓迎会を開催します。
I would leave out the part about 一般の人たちも. Rather impolite
way to refer to your readers. Just let people assume they
will be welcome, since you are mentioning it for them.
--
Tom Donahue
Mika Jarmusz
街の名前を隠しておいたと思ったのに、見つかってしまいました。
>Mistranslates year-round (年中) and celebration (祭典?）.
>Arts includes performing arts, not just アート. It should be 芸術.
>I thought 見事な建築 was OK though.
まさに「見事な」という形容の相応しい、素晴らしい建物とのことですね。
「見事」という言葉はその対象、すなわち「何が」見事なのかを
お互いにわかり合える相手に使う（交わし合い、わかり合う）言葉ではないでしょうか。
「よっ、お見事！」というとき、自分にも相手にも、
何がお見事なのかはわざわざ言わなくても明白なわけです。
「xxx をはじめとした見事な建築など」という語順のとりあわせは、
その対象への了解の示唆が組み込まれていないため、
「一体何が見事なわけ？！」となって、しらけてしまいませんか？
> Collectors and admirers alike will enjoy the [CITY] ArtWalk, a Thursday
> night tradition in which downtown galleries stay open late and welcome the
> public to special exhibit openings and artist receptions.
表現の仕方はいろいろあると思いますが、
アートを満喫しながらダウンタウンをそぞろ歩きできる
毎週木曜の夕べの [CITY] ArtWalk。
ギャラリー特別展のオープニングや
アーチストのレセプションなどにもお立ち寄りいただけます。
> I would leave out the part about 一般の人たちも. Rather impolite
Tom Donahue
> 街の名前を隠しておいたと思ったのに...
Just that I wondered whether the translator looked
it up. In this case, I really think you should.
> アーチストのレセプションなどにもお立ち寄りいただけます。
Much better. Now I see what you mean about the tone.
(This is the kind of stuff that is so hard for us non-NJS to
see, other than to say it sounds like a translation.)
--
Tom Donahue
Dale Ponte
As to "the tone mismatch problem": To my ears a very salient quality
of the English voice is its _lilt_. It pervades the English fluently,
is constitutive of the passage's overall "poise" and "positioning,"
and, I should think, must somehow get projected into the Japanese.
Mind you, I haven't read your translation with an ear to assess
whether some equivalence (bilocation;-) of this lilt may be in effect,
because during these ten years away from Japan....that ear is pretty
atrophied :(
At this moment I can't elaborate, as carefully as I'd like to, my
perceptions of the English lilt as it pertains to the reviewer's well-
stated '"voice/poise/positioning" issue.' But here's a toss of words/
thoughts that come to mind right off: 'upper-middle-brow' impression,
gay, gracious (pretty much the whole spectrum of its senses), a little
shimmery, a touch of singsong, the sentences are rather lengthy but
enjoy a pretty graceful trot that contributes to an atmosphere of well-
being, intelligence and affluence, a few beautiful and distinctively
artsy (impressive? but within 'tastefully/familiarly' so) terms
sprinkled in melodiously...
Just one more little thing before I move on. If the English is
American, and it sure sounds so to me, then 伝統文化 doesn't seem a good
match for "cultural heritage." Isn't 伝統文化 pretty literally
"traditional culture?" It seems to me that (in American contexts)
"cultural heritage" tends to either suggest, or assume, or embrace a
sense of a _blend_ or coexistence (equality lacking, as we all know)
of differing cultures, sharing a history. (Which by and large we're so
used to (hopefully) experiencing that we largely take it (along with
the inequality) for granted.) "Cultural" in this case, and in the
American context generally, seems to often imply or suggest
"multicultural," or at least leaves itself distinctly open to that
familiar implication. For example, "cultural center," "cultural
studies," "cultural geography/anthropology," "cultural survival,"
"cultural competence," "cultural exchange," and so on. IOW, my sense
is that "cultural" in your passage should probably be read as
"multicultural," which 伝統文化 by itself doesn't seem to capture. Or is
my atrophied ear showing?
(Thanks for your faith that there may be something in what I
write....:D
~
Dale
minoru
の, という程度。ワード10セント程度の仕事ならこれでいいんじゃない。
どうせ、大した内容のない、観光案内みたいなもので、どっちに転んでも、だれも怪我をするしろものでもないし。
なぜ、大げさな批評がついたのか、それが理解できない。（なにか裏話があるのかもー例えばpersonal vendettaとか）
Minoru Mochizuki
On 8月23日, 午前3:18, "Mika Jarmusz" <mik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> クライアントに拒まれた翻訳の再評価を依頼されました。
> 書き方のスタイルは人それぞれで、
> 私もつい翻訳調の文章を書いてしまいますから
> 人ごととは思えないのですが、
> 一応、下記のような報告になっています。
> 原文と問題の翻訳も一部引用してあります。
>
> NESの方でも、最寄りのNJSからのコメントなどがあれば
> ぜひお聞かせ下さい。
>
> をはじめとした見事な建築など、長年アートを培ってきたエキサイティングなダウンタウンです。
>
>
Eric Tschetter
> 1.
> With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown
> [CITY] Arts District, a number of fine performing arts venues and
> architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round
> celebration of the arts.
>
> 125以上のギャラリーや美術館、博物館をかかえる[CITY] Arts
> Districtには、数々のパフォーミングアート会場、xxx を
> はじめとした見事な建築など、長年アートを培ってきたエキサイ
> ティングなダウンタウンです。
>
> ・ かかえる is a strange word choice. It makes the
> reader wonder what is being said.
> ・ 見事な cannot simply modify 建築. It needs
> to be supported with "how so".
I agree with the sentiment here, this Japanese just sounds weird to me
(that could simply just be my own ignorance though). Of course, the
English is not all that great either (it is not a complete sentence).
I think the translator probably started with this sentence and never
revisited it. Not that I am any good at E->J, but I think this would
be better.
xxxをはじめ数々の建築や劇場、125以上のギャラリーや美術
館、博物館を誇る[CITY] Arts Districtはアートを培ってき
たエキサイティングなダウンタウンです。
> 2.
> Collectors and admirers alike will enjoy the [CITY] ArtWalk, a
> Thursday night tradition in which downtown galleries stay open late
> and welcome the public to special exhibit openings and artist
> receptions.
>
> [CITY] Artwalkがある毎週木曜日は、ダウンタウンのギャラリー
> が夜遅くまで店を開け、特別展のオープニングや芸術家のパー
> ティーに一般の人たちも歓迎されます。
>
> ・ I personally wouldn't insist on explicitly spelling out
> "Collectors and admirers alike" part if it's properly implied in the
> target sentence, but unfortunately the whole sentence structure
> fails to capture and deliver the message.
> ・ 夜遅くまで店を開け sounds like the stores are
> reluctantly having to (being forced to) open late hours.
> ・ Subject of the passive voice ending 歓迎されます is
> missing. The subject doesn't always need to be spelled out, but it
> must be clearly implied.
I agree that this is strange, but not for the same reasons. The
reason it is poor is because the meaning of "welcome the public" is
not indicating some level of exclusivity where the public is only
allowed into these places on Thursday night. It is simply saying that
the galleries stay open late showing a number of special exhibits and
artist receptions. Including the words "welcome the public" gives it
a warmer feeling whereas the Japanese makes me think that the places
are normally stuck up and cold. Your translation later on in this
thread covers the sentiment much better.
> 3.
> Performing arts aficionados will appreciate the year-round calendar
> of dance, theater and music performances at the [CITY] Center for
> the Performing Arts, while those interested in contemporary art will
> enjoy the [CITY] Museum of Contemporary Art, which has earned many
> accolades for its presentation of cutting-edge art, architecture and
> design.
>
> 年間を通じてダンス、演劇、音楽の公演が満載のカレンダーを誇る
> [CITY] Center for the Performing Artsは、
> 舞台芸術の愛する人を魅了することでしょう。現代美術に興味を
> お持ちなら、最先端の美術や建築、デザインの展示で絶賛を浴びている
> CITY Museum をお楽しみください。
>
> ・ Disjointed sentence. It seems strange that the building
> captivates people.
> ・ 興味をお持ち「なら」 comes through as immature (or
> 馴れ馴れしい).
> ・ 絶賛を浴びている comes across empty and pointless.
> To make sense, "what is" and "by whom" does not always be spelled
> out, but must be properly implied.
I don't really get the comments on this part. Or, to put it more
vulgarly, I think the commenter is blowing it out some unmentionable
hole here. Not sure why they think it is the "building" that
is 魅了ing people, it seems clear to me that it is the events
that would really get the people to come in. The は here is
clearly not stating "the subject is the building" but simply
introducing the idea that there is some center for the performing arts
with all sorts of events.
I don't understand how なら is 馴れ馴れしい, especially
mixed with お持ち. Do they want a ば added to the end of
it? Or, maybe something like 現代美術にご興味をお持ちになら
れていらっしゃる方でございましたら would create the right amount
of distance?
The comment about 絶賛を浴びている makes absolutely no sense to
me. It is clear who is doing the 絶賛ing and what is
being 絶賛d, so the commenter's sentence just seems like they are
spewing tautologies for fun.
Of course, once again, these could all just be my own ignorance...
> 4.
> And those who would like to learn more about [CITY] 's cultural
> heritage won't want to miss the world renowned xx Museum, yy Museum
> and the seasonal, outdoor Native Trails festivals featuring Native
> American performances, food and arts and crafts. Come join the
> celebration!
>
> さらに、CITYの伝統文化をもっと深く知りたいなら、世界
> に名高い博物館のxx Museumやyy Museumは必見で
> す。また、季節ごとに戸外で開催されるxx フェスティバル
> は、アメリカ先住民のパフォーマンス、食事、美術工芸が楽しめ
> ます。ぜひお見逃しなく！
>
> ・ もっと深く知りたいなら is another immature mode of
> speech.
> ・ 楽しめます。Another example of inconsistent tone.
> ・ ぜひお見逃しなく！ is an expression pertaining to
> a specific event. It back translates into "Don't miss it!" It makes
> the reader wonder what they are missing already.
While they could probably replace もっと with より
and 知りたい with 親しみたい, I don't see it as an
"immature mode of speech." It is, however, a statement directed at
the reader which depending on the general flow of the document might
or might not be acceptable. If this were a guide book giving advice
about what a visitor could do in the city, then it is possibly
appropriate. It seems, however, that this is something that might go
in a pamphlet that the city itself produces, i.e. an introduction of
what the city has to offer and not necessarily advice on what a person
might enjoy in the city. So, it is probably the case that
もっと知りたいなら is not the best phrasing, but not for the
reasons stated above. It seems like the sentence could do with a
reordering:
さらに、＿＿＿や＿＿＿という世界規模でも知られている博物館もあ
り、CITYの伝統文化に親しむには必見です。
I don't much care for the word パフォーマンス and would probably
prefer 演奏 or something along those lines. That said, I don't
see how 楽しめます is out of place here, though I would like to
put a も in there instead of が as well as change
フェスティバルは to フェスティバルでは.
The comments about お見逃しなく seems off the mark as well, I
didn't think "oh, what am I missing now?" I just took it to mean "if
you are here, you definitely want to take part in these activities."
That said, the 見 part of お見逃しなく does bother me a
bit, because not all of the activities are things that you watch.
This part can probably just be dropped.
Overall, the Japanese looks like something that needs editing, not
necessarily a flat out rejection. If the original translation request
stipulated a print-ready document (and they are paying for a print-
ready document), then I can understand withholding payment. But, if
they were just bottom-feeding, trying to find a cheap translation
thinking it would be good to put in print right away, then they got
what they paid for and need to understand a little more about the
document creation process.
--Eric Tschetter
Mika Jarmusz
Now that Dale picked up on my question and elaborated for us, I know that I wasn't after lilt, which is a unmeasurable quality, although it is nice to have it in this type of "selling" material. I didn't want to use the word "keigo" because what's required goes far beyond the limited scope of keigo, but it's along that line. I wonder if the word is social deixis. Unlike lilt, when you misuse this voice/poise/positioning (social deixis?), the damage is done and the output pretty much needs to be reworked. Does this make sense?
> 1.
> With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown
> [CITY] Arts District, a number of fine performing arts venues and
> architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round
> celebration of the arts.
125余りのギャラリーや博物館が点在し、数々の劇場ホール、XXX などの秀逸な建築物に恵まれる[CITY]。ダウンタウンにはArts Districtとして知られる地区もあり、年間を通じてアートにふれることができます。
2. Eric, I like your comment.
3. Okay, I guess I have to point it out.
The following part is disjointed: 舞台芸術の愛する人を魅了することでしょう。 You have to read it again to correct this grammatical error in the head before determining that "it is the events that would really get the people to come in."
>Or, maybe something like 現代美術にご興味をお持ちになら
れていらっしゃる方でございましたら would create the right amount
of distance?
> Performing arts aficionados will appreciate the year-round calendar
> of dance, theater and music performances at the [CITY] Center for
> the Performing Arts, while those interested in contemporary art will
> enjoy the [CITY] Museum of Contemporary Art, which has earned many
> accolades for its presentation of cutting-edge art, architecture and
> design.
「現代美術に興味をお持ちなら」is just too up close and personal for comfort. You need to give readers more space.
Just like the expression 見事な,
絶賛を浴びているneeds to point to something SPECIFIC:
歌心溢れる表現力で絶賛を浴びている
深い音楽性と華のある容姿で絶賛を浴びている
新しいサウンドで絶賛を浴びている
翌年にも『カルメン』 で絶賛を浴びている
(どこどこ)で絶賛を浴びている(including 各方面で）
最先端の美術や建築、デザインの展示で絶賛を浴びている
There's a mismatch and it sounds fake to me, because
絶賛 is too high of a rave review to be given to "this and that." But this alone would not disqualify the translation, I concede.
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From Wikipedia:
Social deixis: is the use of different deictics to express social distinctions. An example is difference between formal and polite pro-forms. Relational social deixis is where the form of word used indicates the relative social status of the addressor and the addressee. For example, one pro-form might be used to address those of higher social rank, another to address those of lesser social rank, another to address those of the same social rank. By contrast, absolute social deixis indicates a social standing irrespective of the social standing of the speaker. Thus, village chiefs might always be addressed by a special pro-form, regardless of whether it is someone below them, above them or at the same level of the social hierarchy who is doing the addressing.
Sarah Alys
this type of ad copy to cull info for my English-speaking coworkers,
and 100% agree with you that this Japanese is just bizarre for this
type of material. The English is basically ad copy, so the end
Japanese product has to be that way, too. It sounds like the client
expected the translator to deliver polished ad copy, but it's clear as
day that the translator is nonnative AND doesn't have much experience
in Japanese marketing text (even though he obviously speaks Japanese
at a high level). That doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad translator.
He's probably very good at other types of material (and/or J>E?). But
the style is wrong for this. I think what's bothering you is a
combination of "social deixis" and, well, copywriting skill.
Copywriting is totally different in Japanese than in English, which
some NES don't realize if they're not exposed to it. And it's ALSO
different than normal Japanese speech or writing, so sometimes even
when we're exposed to it and we know it's different, we can't produce
it. I know I could not translate this type of writing into Japanese,
even though I could do it J>E. It takes a copywriter to write it. If
you're hiring a translator and you want print-ready product, that
translator has to be a minimally solid copywriter. Otherwise, you need
someone to copywrite from the translation. The original translator
here is not a copywriter. Either your client didn't understand that,
or explained the project improperly to the translator, or paid pennies
and is getting what they paid for (or didn't pay for...).
As just one example, take the お持ちなら. It's totally 馴れ馴れしい here. But
part of the 馴れ馴れしい is not just the politeness level; it's that the
voice is not what the reader is expecting. If you're going to use お持ち
it's always お持ちの方は or something in these situations, so なら becomes
even more abrupt sounding because it's a betrayal of the readers'
expectations. Also, it's kind of weird in Japanese ad copy to see so
many verbs. Most ad copy does what you did in "アートを満喫しながらダウンタウンをそぞろ歩きでき
る毎週木曜の夕べの [CITY] ArtWalk。" It's not a complete sentence, but it sounds
like a strong opening to the ArtWalk section in Japanese. More verbs
come in later sentences, but the first sentence often ends with a
noun. The original translator has verbs all over the place, so it
sounds very belabored. I think in terms of 前向き critique, I think the
issue of sentence structure and tone is important for the translator,
and it's important to gently let the client know that copywriting
skill is (I think) the biggest problem here. Knowing the right social
deixis is a vital part of the skill, but just one part.
One thing I would say about your draft email to your client if you
haven't sent it is, I would change:
> I'm afraid that the overall tone comes through as immature
> and insensitive in a clueless way.
"I'm afraid the overall tone comes across as immature and insensitive/
tone-deaf to the audience."
You can pick either "insensitive" or "tone-deaf," whichever one is
more what you mean. But I would delete "in a clueless way" unless you
have a very close relationship with the client, because it sounded
unnecessarily harsh to me as someone who doesn't know you very well.
HTH
Alys @ must sleep... *thud*
Mika Jarmusz
An offlist note said:
Btw, instead of calling お持ちなら "immature" or 馴れ馴れしい, I think the real issue you are trying to get at is that the English is "those who are interested", i.e. it is just introducing something and if you happen to be interested in it, that's great, whereas the Japanese お持ちなら switches the focus to "you". I.e. it would "back translate" into "if you are interested in", the addition of 方 as Sarah Alys mentioned is really also just trying to solve the same problem. I.e. adding 方 takes the focus off of "you," the reader, and puts it back onto "those".
-----
Sarah's Tone-deaf is a good suggestion, and "immature" may not have been the quite right term, but what I had in mind was that the translation didn't have the proper sense of how the document should relate to its readers, which should cost a major deduction point.
I must also note that お持ちの方は still wouldn't work, because it sounds like a 場内アナウンス, or sounds too much like soliciting.
xxに興味をお持ちの方は
ぜひご参加ください
__欄にご記入の上、お申し込み下さい
> Performing arts aficionados will appreciate the year-round calendar
> of dance, theater and music performances at the [CITY] Center for
> the Performing Arts, while those interested in contemporary art will
> enjoy the [CITY] Museum of Contemporary Art, which has earned many
> accolades for its presentation of cutting-edge art, architecture and
> design.
What I've offered so far as possible translation stays within the boundary of "translation" and not copy writing, in that I'm just translating the source text in plain, acceptable forms of Japanese. No fancy twisting and turning that is associated with copy writing. I trust other NJS's will correct me if I'm missing something.
In case anyone is still wondering, の in the sentence below was dead and rotting.
舞台芸術「の」愛する人を魅了することでしょう。
Kirill Sereda
>>But Kirill's interpretation makes sense, except that a crucial "and" is missing. The sentence is of the form
"With A, B, and C, Denver is a year-round celebration of the arts."
I think that the fact that “and” is missing might indicate that the author is speaking emphatically and does not want to explicitly limit the list to the above three elements. In other words, “A, B, C” sounds emphatic and non-finite, while “A, B, and C” is an ordinary list of three elements.
k
-----Original Message-----
From: hon...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:hon...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Mark Spahn
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 2:50
PM
To: honyaku
Subject: Re: E to J review
comments
When I first read this sentence, I thought it did not parse.
Mark Spahn
>>But Kirill's interpretation makes sense, except that a crucial "and" is missing. The sentence is of the form
"With A, B, and C, Denver is a year-round celebration of the arts."
I think that the fact that “and” is missing might indicate that the author is speaking emphatically and does not want to explicitly limit the list to the above three elements. In other words, “A, B, C” sounds emphatic and non-finite, while “A, B, and C” is an ordinary list of three elements.
k[irill Sereda]
==UNQUOTE==
Yes, you're right. Without the "and" the sentence conveys the connotation "things like -- for example -- A, B, and C", meaning that the complete list is not limited to the three items A, B, and C. The absence of the "and" led me, on first reading this sentence, to think that the sentence did not parse. But if this "and"less sentence were spoken with the appropriate intonation and pauses, there would be no ambiguity. Some years ago, Tom Gally wrote up in
Mika Jarmusz
I digress, but I liked the 「に」と「だ」の使い分け in:
年末年始の観光シーズン。温泉に、ハワイにと出かける人も多いのではないでしょうか。しかし、いい加減、温泉だハワイだって、代わり映えのしない旅でいいんですかっ！
It makes me smile. I wouldn't change a thing!
But back on track.
It's worth noting in terms of client education that the reviewed translation was more likely done by a native Japanese translator. As mentioned before on this list, just because the translator is a native speaker doesn't mean they can translate.
興味のある方 can be worked into acceptable forms:
現代美術に興味のある方には[CITY] Museumもお薦めです。
現代美術に興味があれば[CITY] Museumにも行ってみよう。
... there are more ways.
I still like my earlier version, though.
sls
> Interesting to know that skipping "and" can mean so much.
With the caveat that omitting the "and" does not work in the sentence
you have been talking about - it really makes it go "bump". Here i have
inserted the missing "and", as you suggested:
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown [CITY]
Arts District, {and} a number of fine performing arts venues and
architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
You could drop the "and" if you were to rewrite the sentence under
review as a slogan:
"Over 125 galleries and museums, an exciting downtown arts district, a
number of fine performing arts venues and architectural wonders
including XXX: [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts."
But that is not what has been under review...
Anyway, i'd like to show you the other problems the sentence has
(although the issue at hand is the translation and its errors, it is
worth mentioning that the original is poorly written to start with,
which hampers the process of providing an intuitively good translation).
For example, the definite article following the "museums" sets the
reader up to think of "exciting downtown [CITY] Arts District" as the
subject of the sentence (which in this case it is not):
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown [CITY]
Arts District {expected predicate}."
As a consequence, the reader experiences another "bump" when the
sentence continues with "a number of".
It is also poor style to introduce a place called "[CITY] Arts District"
when the subsequently subject of the sentence is said [CITY].
To illustrate that with a set of short sample sentences:
"After putting Mary's little lamb to bed, Peter tiptoed out of the
room." - maru
"After putting his little lamb to bed, Peter tiptoed out of the room." -
maru
"After putting Peter's little lamb to bed, Peter tiptoed out of the
room." - batsu
Thus "the exciting downtown [CITY] Arts District" should be re-written
as "an exciting downtown arts district" - and, lo, this also solves the
problem with the "fake subject" we have in the original, since now we have:
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, an exciting downtown arts
district, {and} a number of fine performing arts venues and
architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
Finally (but this may just be more a matter of preference than of
improving comprehension), i would re-order the sentence, either from the
many to the few or from the few to the many:
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, a number of fine performing
arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, {and} an exciting
downtown arts district, [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts."
... or
"With an exciting downtown arts district, a number of fine performing
arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, {and} more than 125
galleries and museums, [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts."
Alternatively, if the writer really wanted to emphasize the open-endness
of the enumeration - something i doubt, considering the poor writing
style, one could drop the "and" and replace it with another term in the
enumeration - in this example i am showing the structural issue by using
the plain grey "and more", but i am sure if someone pays me i'll come up
with something more elegant.
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, a number of fine performing
arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, an exciting
downtown arts district, {and more,} [CITY] is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
... or
"With an exciting downtown arts district, a number of fine performing
arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, {and} more than 125
galleries and museums, {and more,}, [CITY] is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
In any case, i think that, had the original been appropriately written,
the translator would have more likely parsed the sentence correctly, and
much of the discussion on this list would not have been necessary. :-)
As an aside, i wonder whether the translator was perhaps someone who is
neither a NES nor a NJS... nevermind the writer... ;-)
Regards: Hendrik
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http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/yells/
sls
> Interesting to know that skipping "and" can mean so much.
With the caveat that omitting the "and" does not work in the sentence
you have been talking about - it really makes it go "bump". Here i have
inserted the missing "and", as you suggested:
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown [CITY]
Arts District, {and} a number of fine performing arts venues and
architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
You could drop the "and" if you were to rewrite the sentence under
review as a slogan:
"Over 125 galleries and museums, an exciting downtown arts district, a
number of fine performing arts venues and architectural wonders
including XXX: [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts."
But that is not what has been under review...
Anyway, i'd like to show you the other problems the sentence has
(although the issue at hand is the translation and its errors, it is
worth mentioning that the original is poorly written to start with,
which hampers the process of providing an intuitively good translation).
For example, the definite article following "and museums" sets the
reader up to think of "exciting downtown [CITY] Arts District" as the
subject of the sentence (which in this case it is not):
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown [CITY]
Arts District {expected predicate}."
As a consequence, the reader experiences another "bump" when the
sentence continues with "a number of".
It is also poor style to introduce a place called "[CITY] Arts District"
when the subsequently subject of the sentence is said [CITY].
To illustrate that with a set of short sample sentences:
"After putting Mary's little lamb to bed, Peter tiptoed out of the
room." - maru
"After putting his little lamb to bed, Peter tiptoed out of the room." -
maru
"After putting Peter's little lamb to bed, Peter tiptoed out of the
room." - batsu
Thus "the exciting downtown [CITY] Arts District" should be re-written
as "an exciting downtown arts district" - and, lo, this also solves the
problem with the "fake subject" we have in the original, since now we have:
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, an exciting downtown arts
district, {and} a number of fine performing arts venues and
architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
Finally (but this may just be more a matter of preference than of
improving comprehension), i would re-order the sentence, either from the
many to the few or from the few to the many:
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, a number of fine performing
arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, {and} an exciting
downtown arts district, [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts."
... or
"With an exciting downtown arts district, a number of fine performing
arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, {and} more than 125
galleries and museums, [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts."
Alternatively, if the writer really wanted to emphasize the open-endness
of the enumeration - something i doubt, considering the poor writing
style - one could drop the "and" and replace it with another term in the
enumeration. In this example i am showing this structural issue by using
the plain grey "and more", but i am sure if someone pays me i'll come up
with something more elegant.
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, a number of fine performing
arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, an exciting
downtown arts district, {and more,} [CITY] is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
... or
"With an exciting downtown arts district, a number of fine performing
arts venues and architectural wonders including XXX, {and} more than 125
galleries and museums, {and more,}, [CITY] is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
In any case, i think that, had the original been appropriately written,
Mark Spahn
Mika Jarmusz
"a number of fine performing arts venues" and "architectural wonders including XXX" are 2 things, not one!
"With A, B, C and D, City is a year-round celebration of the arts."
This shows how much I was really paying attention. I acknowledged Kirill's "source text makes sense" statement, and endorsed it along with Mark's analysis, but in my head I was seeing XXX clearly separated from performing arts venues. I didn't notice Kirill and Mark actually put C and D together until this morning. So sorry for the confusion. I KNEW what xxx is (Taliesin West) but most of you didn't, except for Tom Donahue, and he was so right when he wrote you should look it up, not only to confirm location but to find out what it is. Taliesin West has a music pavilion, but it's fair to say that it's no doubt a great architecture first. We are not perfect, but the original translator shouldn't have missed this parsing. Another reason not to translate too quickly.
sls
> My gosh! The original source text is fine. It has no bumps!
OK, so you say it is supposed to be:
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown [CITY]
Arts District, a number of fine performing arts venues, and
architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round celebration
of the arts."
Assuming you are right (you could be), the writer would need to put a
comma before the "and"... :-)
Obviously!
If you want, you can remove that one part from my critique. What i wrote
about the "bump" that is caused by "the" following "and museums" still
stands...
> This shows how much I was really paying attention.
I don't think so - we have been paying very good atgention, actually.
The fact that several among us got the parsing of that sentence as we
described is a good indication of it being written sub-optimally.
An "and" inside an enumeration is potentially misleading but can be
disambiguiated by proper use of commas.
To illustrate:
"We have several baskets here, filled with apples, oranges, berries and
nuts, bananas, and pineapples."
"We have several baskets here, filled with apples, oranges, berries and
nuts, bananas and pineapples."
Two different meanings, no? Writers need to pay attention to the fact
that people don't _hear_ the text but _read_ it... :-
So here is another new version, based on your assumptiuon that the "and"
is meant to give us a part "D":
"With architectural wonders including XXX, more than 125 galleries and
museums, a number of fine performing arts venues, and an exciting
downtown arts district, [CITY] is a year-round celebration of the arts."
Have fun!
sls
> My gosh! The original source text is fine. It has no bumps!
> "a number of fine performing arts venues" and "architectural wonders
> including XXX" are 2 things, not one!
> "With A, B, C and D, City is a year-round celebration of the arts."
Mika, i just realised that i should have been more explicit about what
the "and" does inside the enumeration in _our_ sentence. It comes
across, not as an "and" of enumeration, as you suggest, but as an "and "
that links two characteristics of something, giving us the following
meaning (my extrapolation in curly brackets):
"With more than 125 galleries and museums, the exciting downtown [CITY]
Arts District, a number of fine performing arts venues {that are at the
same time} architectural wonders including XXX, [CITY] is a year-round
celebration of the arts."
If this is not what is meant, the writer _should_ use a comma before the
end... :-)
Mika Jarmusz
It was I (ボク、わたくし、おいら、と鼻を指さす） who deleted it by mistake. Obviously, I kept doing it in this thread, and kept you all well confused.
皆様、大変お騒がせいたしました。
sls
> そう、comma だったんですよね！
>
> It was I (ボク、わたくし、おいら、と鼻を指さす） who deleted it by mistake.
Well, as a master producer of typos i am best advised to refrain from
throwing stones, lest my glass house be shattered... :-)
Actually, methinks this little error should be rather useful for some
readers of this list, since it has allowed/ compelled us to make
explicit a few of the subtle processes that are involved when we read a
text (whether or not there is any intention to translate it).
* * *
By the way, since my Japanese is not good enough to critique another
person's E->J translation, i had not paid much attention to the beginnig
of this thread. However, i've gotten curios and went back to have a look
at the first post where i stumbled upon this item (from Mika's comment):
> · かかえる is a strange word choice. It makes the reader wonder
> what is being said.
Hm... if you can say "問題を抱える国" or "借金を抱えている人" why not "
ギャラリーや美術館、博物館をかかえる[CITY] Arts District"...? ;-) :-)
Derek Lin
sls wrote:
> Hm... if you can say "問題を抱える国" or "借金を抱えている人" why not "
> ギャラリーや美術館、博物館をかかえる[CITY] Arts District"...? ;-) :-)
>
>
>
Not a NJS, but I think this particular usage of 抱える implies that the
抱えられるもの is a 負担。
Derek
sls
> Not a NJS, but I think this particular usage of 抱える implies that the
> 抱えられるもの is a 負担。
Well, _we_ know that - but do you think the translator knew that? :-)
Derek Lin
coming from now.
Derek
Mika Jarmusz
Hendrik, thank you for showing us the examples demonstrating why かかえる was a strange word choice. I hadn't thought of that, and thanks to Derek I managed to catch on your point.
A city does not かかえる galleries and museums. When a city かかえる something, that something is likely to be some sort of problems, debts, headaches and so on. That was why it was inappropriate in the sentence in question. It's not always easy to explain why some things are just so.
大工
> It's not always easy to explain why some things are just so.
Someone once said to me, "ask a native to find the right way and a
foreigner to explain WHY that way is the right way"... :-)
--
http://www.southwind-translation.com/
.
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