TIG Welder Question - Miller Syncrowave 200
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Alex
Oct 25, 2011, 6:46:21 PM10/25/11
to Framebuilders
OK, I'm gonna' plead complete ignorance here, and if this has been all
hashed out prior, someone can tell me that, along with where to go
look for the answer. Apologies in advance if needed !
I'm not a TIG-er, but I've come across what appears to be a good deal
on a Miller Syncrowave 200, along with all the stuff needed to make it
go.
Will this work for TIG-ing bike frames ? It appears to have all of
the features that I know other builders use, but I see one potential
problem with it: the current only goes down to 5A. Miller says this
will work down to 0.020" steel, but framebuilders have to deal with
stuff thinner than that, especially at the "lips" of a miter.
So, what say the experts ?
Thanks (and apologies if necessary),
Alex
http://www.alexmeade.com/Tools.htm
hashed out prior, someone can tell me that, along with where to go
look for the answer. Apologies in advance if needed !
I'm not a TIG-er, but I've come across what appears to be a good deal
on a Miller Syncrowave 200, along with all the stuff needed to make it
go.
Will this work for TIG-ing bike frames ? It appears to have all of
the features that I know other builders use, but I see one potential
problem with it: the current only goes down to 5A. Miller says this
will work down to 0.020" steel, but framebuilders have to deal with
stuff thinner than that, especially at the "lips" of a miter.
So, what say the experts ?
Thanks (and apologies if necessary),
Alex
http://www.alexmeade.com/Tools.htm
Eric Doswell
Oct 25, 2011, 7:11:10 PM10/25/11
to Alex, Framebuilders
It should work great.
Alex <al...@alexmeade.com> wrote:
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Wissahickon Cyclery
Oct 25, 2011, 7:33:07 PM10/25/11
to Eric Doswell, Alex, Framebuilders
Syncrowave is a transformer machine which is the preferred type with the old dudes. The other machines (inverters) are WAY harder to get serviced and often are considered disposable. The syncrowave is a great machine and will never let you down. Heavy and bulky but still a great machine.
My $.02
-Drew--
Drew Guldalian
Wissahickon Cyclery
7837 Germantown Ave Phila,PA 19118
www.wiss-cycles.com
www.engincycles.com
My $.02
-Drew
Drew Guldalian
Wissahickon Cyclery
7837 Germantown Ave Phila,PA 19118
www.wiss-cycles.com
www.engincycles.com
Mark Stonich
Oct 25, 2011, 7:35:05 PM10/25/11
to Alex, Framebuilders
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Alex <al...@alexmeade.com> wrote:
Miller says this
Miller says this
will work down to 0.020" steel, but framebuilders have to deal with
stuff thinner than that, especially at the "lips" of a miter.
Not if you miter correctly for welding, which is different than for brazing.
According to both the aerospace weldor who taught me to TIG and air
frame weldor who taught me to O/A weld, the optimum prep for welding
is somewhat different than for brazing.
http://bikesmithdesign.com/brazing/braze_vs_weld.jpg
Welding with a braze miter may lead to incomplete penetration on the
sides. Or it could be more accurate to say that the weld may end up
where the mitered tube is not full thickness. Also the knife edge
melts away at different rates around the joint, making it harder to
get a pretty weld.
OTOH Brazing with a weld miter you lose the contact area you need to make
up for the inability to build any significant root depth to the
fillet, on the sides. And there may be less capillary action to draw
filler into the interior of the joint.
According to both the aerospace weldor who taught me to TIG and air
frame weldor who taught me to O/A weld, the optimum prep for welding
is somewhat different than for brazing.
http://bikesmithdesign.com/brazing/braze_vs_weld.jpg
Welding with a braze miter may lead to incomplete penetration on the
sides. Or it could be more accurate to say that the weld may end up
where the mitered tube is not full thickness. Also the knife edge
melts away at different rates around the joint, making it harder to
get a pretty weld.
OTOH Brazing with a weld miter you lose the contact area you need to make
up for the inability to build any significant root depth to the
fillet, on the sides. And there may be less capillary action to draw
filler into the interior of the joint.
--
Mark Stonich;
5349 Elliot Ave S.
Minneapolis MN 55417-1741
612-824-2372
http://bikesmithdesign.com
http://mnhpva.org
Jim Merz
Oct 27, 2011, 2:44:12 PM10/27/11
to Framebuilders
My feeling is that an inverter machine it the way to go. Especially if
you are not a great welder. In the past I had a Miller like you
mention, it is a workhorse of the welding industry and of course works
fine. But here is my argument. First off, the electronic controls on
the inverter machine allows really tight control of the arc, even down
to very low amps. I never go to 5 amps, but then I don't weld 0.020
steel. But high skill is required for this in any case. The pulse
feature on my Thermal-Arc inverter machine makes me a better welder
without a doubt. And the AC setting for aluminum is much better on the
inverter. One negative is that the controls are so complete that if
you don't know how to weld it can be hard to get set up correctly.
This is somewhat true in any case, but with the new inverter machines
one can set almost any parameter. The inverter is way more efficient,
this means that you can hook it up to a 50 amp. circuit (in the case
of my 300a. welder) with no problem. I sometimes use mine with my
generator that puts out 30a and for up to say 200a on the welder it
works fine. If you only use low amp. settings then even a drier
circuit is fine. If you are using the welder all the time it can
really save on the electric bill also, the transformer machine uses a
lot more juice. And the inverter is about as big as a sewing machine,
easy to move the thing to a job. I have never needed to have mine
worked on, but it is small enough to send back to the company unlike
the transformer machine. But inverter welders do cost a lot and deals
are rare. I guess if you get the Miller cheap enough you could
justify it based on the copper in it! Always going to be worth money
for scrap. Make sure you get a torch that is suitable for light work,
and a good water cooler. A good TIG machine is one of life's joys.
Jim Merz
Big Sur CA
you are not a great welder. In the past I had a Miller like you
mention, it is a workhorse of the welding industry and of course works
fine. But here is my argument. First off, the electronic controls on
the inverter machine allows really tight control of the arc, even down
to very low amps. I never go to 5 amps, but then I don't weld 0.020
steel. But high skill is required for this in any case. The pulse
feature on my Thermal-Arc inverter machine makes me a better welder
without a doubt. And the AC setting for aluminum is much better on the
inverter. One negative is that the controls are so complete that if
you don't know how to weld it can be hard to get set up correctly.
This is somewhat true in any case, but with the new inverter machines
one can set almost any parameter. The inverter is way more efficient,
this means that you can hook it up to a 50 amp. circuit (in the case
of my 300a. welder) with no problem. I sometimes use mine with my
generator that puts out 30a and for up to say 200a on the welder it
works fine. If you only use low amp. settings then even a drier
circuit is fine. If you are using the welder all the time it can
really save on the electric bill also, the transformer machine uses a
lot more juice. And the inverter is about as big as a sewing machine,
easy to move the thing to a job. I have never needed to have mine
worked on, but it is small enough to send back to the company unlike
the transformer machine. But inverter welders do cost a lot and deals
are rare. I guess if you get the Miller cheap enough you could
justify it based on the copper in it! Always going to be worth money
for scrap. Make sure you get a torch that is suitable for light work,
and a good water cooler. A good TIG machine is one of life's joys.
Jim Merz
Big Sur CA
James
Oct 27, 2011, 2:52:13 PM10/27/11
to Framebuilders
I've had my Syncrowave 250 over 10 years now. With the added on Pulse
unit, and water cooler . . . an excellent machine for framebuilding
in steel, stainless, Aluminum, and Titanium. Near useless when it
comes to joining carbon fiber tubes . . . LOL
Very heavy compared to the Inverter type welders . . .
Ethan Labowitz
Oct 27, 2011, 3:52:34 PM10/27/11
to Alex, Framebuilders
I'm not an expert, and have never TIGed a bike frame, but I've got experience with both inverters and transformers, and here's my input:
If you need a machine that will last your whole lifetime, get a transformer machine like a Synchrowave.
But "disposable" isn't the word I'd use to describe inverters. There are places that repair them, and the durability has improved over the years. I've used a Dynasty 200DX that had been kicking around a busy high school welding shop for 2 or 3 years--it welded beautifully. Miller supposedly field-tested the Dynasty for 4 years before its introduction, in part because they wanted to be sure it was durable enough for industrial use.
Inverters are the way of the future. The arc is noticeably better and more controllable. For example, on aluminum fillet joints, a Synchrowave's wide, broad arc gives you big, fat beads. The Dynasty, on the other hand, can be set to a higher AC frequency, like 120+ Hz (the Synchrowave is limited to 60 Hz only). This focuses the arc, giving you a fillet bead that looks more like a bead on steel.
The various pulse settings can help a lot with controlling distortion, which would seem highly relevant for thin-wall applications like framebuilding.
Inverters also use roughly 10% less power than transformers, all else equal, which can add up over the course of decades, especially on high-amperage applications. And the machines are physically much smaller and lighter.
No doubt, transformers have been used to build things like bike frames for a long time without issues. But if given the choice, I'm going to opt for an inverter, especially for things like aluminum and bike frame fabrication.
One exception would be in school shops, where I like transformer machines for their durability and simplicity, making them more approachable for inexperienced students and more tolerant of gross errors.
Ethan
If you need a machine that will last your whole lifetime, get a transformer machine like a Synchrowave.
But "disposable" isn't the word I'd use to describe inverters. There are places that repair them, and the durability has improved over the years. I've used a Dynasty 200DX that had been kicking around a busy high school welding shop for 2 or 3 years--it welded beautifully. Miller supposedly field-tested the Dynasty for 4 years before its introduction, in part because they wanted to be sure it was durable enough for industrial use.
Inverters are the way of the future. The arc is noticeably better and more controllable. For example, on aluminum fillet joints, a Synchrowave's wide, broad arc gives you big, fat beads. The Dynasty, on the other hand, can be set to a higher AC frequency, like 120+ Hz (the Synchrowave is limited to 60 Hz only). This focuses the arc, giving you a fillet bead that looks more like a bead on steel.
The various pulse settings can help a lot with controlling distortion, which would seem highly relevant for thin-wall applications like framebuilding.
Inverters also use roughly 10% less power than transformers, all else equal, which can add up over the course of decades, especially on high-amperage applications. And the machines are physically much smaller and lighter.
No doubt, transformers have been used to build things like bike frames for a long time without issues. But if given the choice, I'm going to opt for an inverter, especially for things like aluminum and bike frame fabrication.
One exception would be in school shops, where I like transformer machines for their durability and simplicity, making them more approachable for inexperienced students and more tolerant of gross errors.
Ethan
Ethan Labowitz, MS
Prototype Shop Manager, Greentown Labs · http://www.greentownlabs.com
Founder, Boston Institute for Clean Energy Prototyping (BICEP) · http://www.cleantechprototypes.com/blog
Prototyping strategy & skills training · Prototype design · Welding · Brazing · Machining
AWS D1.1 Certified Welder · ASME Section IX Certified Brazer
@CleantechPtypes · 202 286 6510
http://www.linkedin.com/in/elabowitz
Prototype Shop Manager, Greentown Labs · http://www.greentownlabs.com
Founder, Boston Institute for Clean Energy Prototyping (BICEP) · http://www.cleantechprototypes.com/blog
Prototyping strategy & skills training · Prototype design · Welding · Brazing · Machining
AWS D1.1 Certified Welder · ASME Section IX Certified Brazer
@CleantechPtypes · 202 286 6510
http://www.linkedin.com/in/elabowitz
John Caletti
Oct 28, 2011, 12:33:08 PM10/28/11
to Framebuilders
Jim Merz wrote:
> "A good TIG machine is one of life's joys."
Nice!
So, lots of opinions and preferences out there. It might be good to go talk to the welding store. I know a lot of new machines have come out recently, including small stuff that doesn't need a 220 outlet, and one with simplified settings. I'm on a Syncrowave with an add-on pulser. The pulser is great. It's nice that I have the option for doing aluminum and stick, but I almost never use that. It seems like when selecting it's important to evaluate what you really need and if you are on a budget, maybe skip the aluminum and stick capabilities, and you don't need high amps. Personally, I wouldn't go without the pulser.
Also, I switched out my hose to a superflex hose which is lighter and more flexible > great.
best,
John Caletti
Caletti Cycles
Santa Cruz, CA
Arthur Marks
Oct 28, 2011, 3:02:54 PM10/28/11
to frameb...@googlegroups.com
Speaking of... This should probably be a whole 'nother thread. I've
seen advertisements for a new welder called "Multiplaz"
http://www.multiplaz.com/ I really don't know anything about it, but
it makes me think it could be a real winner for the hobbyist bicycle
building crowd. I'm a little lost on whether it works more like a TIG
or a MIG, but the big benefit they tout is the use of a water/alcohol
mix rather than shielding gas. It runs on standard household 115V and
is fairly affordable (priced under US$2k). I probably should have
read up on the link better before posting this---sorry! :) -Arthur
seen advertisements for a new welder called "Multiplaz"
http://www.multiplaz.com/ I really don't know anything about it, but
it makes me think it could be a real winner for the hobbyist bicycle
building crowd. I'm a little lost on whether it works more like a TIG
or a MIG, but the big benefit they tout is the use of a water/alcohol
mix rather than shielding gas. It runs on standard household 115V and
is fairly affordable (priced under US$2k). I probably should have
read up on the link better before posting this---sorry! :) -Arthur
Eric Doswell
Oct 28, 2011, 4:00:33 PM10/28/11
to frameb...@googlegroups.com
You'll never skip the stick capabilities, if it'll run DC you
can run stick on it. Pick up another lead and an electrode holder for
when you want to build a vise pedestal or weld channel iron for a fixture.
You can DC aluminum also, but it's a nasty mess.
E
can run stick on it. Pick up another lead and an electrode holder for
when you want to build a vise pedestal or weld channel iron for a fixture.
You can DC aluminum also, but it's a nasty mess.
E
Ethan Labowitz
Oct 28, 2011, 5:37:22 PM10/28/11
to Eric Doswell, frameb...@googlegroups.com
This. You can even, in a pinch, run a stick electrode in a TIG torch. Not ideal, but good enough for a quick job. Just be sure to match up electrode size with TIG collet & collet body size (e.g. 1/8" electrode in a 1/8" TIG collet & collet body).
E (Ethan)
E (Ethan)
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pierre chastain/ blaze bicycles
Nov 2, 2011, 12:03:16 PM11/2/11
to Framebuilders
Alex,
I have a syncowave 200. This a great machine and works great for
building bikes. Those that suggest inverter machines are willing to
spend more than required for bike frames. I see the main advantage of
inverters is there potability. if you contract welder than can be a
huge factor. The high frequency start setting on the sycrowave work
well for me. So far I have not had the need for a water cooled torch,
but I could always add that if I need it.
enjoy,
Pierre
I have a syncowave 200. This a great machine and works great for
building bikes. Those that suggest inverter machines are willing to
spend more than required for bike frames. I see the main advantage of
inverters is there potability. if you contract welder than can be a
huge factor. The high frequency start setting on the sycrowave work
well for me. So far I have not had the need for a water cooled torch,
but I could always add that if I need it.
enjoy,
Pierre
Alex Meade
Nov 2, 2011, 2:12:55 PM11/2/11
to Framebuilders
Pierre and others, thanks very much. Your collective input has been
most valuable.
Alex
http://www.alexmeade.com/Tools.htm
On Nov 2, 12:03 pm, "pierre chastain/ blaze bicycles"
> > Alexhttp://www.alexmeade.com/Tools.htm- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
most valuable.
Alex
http://www.alexmeade.com/Tools.htm
On Nov 2, 12:03 pm, "pierre chastain/ blaze bicycles"
>
> - Show quoted text -
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