AllRoad Chainstay recommendation

[Daniel Jackson]

Looking for chainstay recommendations for use with the new Compass Cycles bottom bracket shell for wide tire road frames. Something with a bend that starts 22.2 round.

This will be for a frame with clearances for 700c x 44 tires with 62 mm fenders.

Thanks!

Daniel in Northern VT

[Andy Newlands]

Hi Daniel,

Reynolds has 853 bent chain stays which are in stock here at my warehouse in Portland.  Here is the link:

http://www.torchandfile.com/REYNOLDS-FX3521-CHAINSTAY-853-222x0906x410-ROR-BENT-12-DEG-14-TIP-PAIR_p_1207.html

Cheers,

Andy Newlands

www.strawberrybicycle.com

www.torchandfile.com

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[Jon Norstog]

Dan, you could bend your own from 7/8" chrome moly.  For most riders .028 thickness would be fine.  For real animals/CX .035" would give you a REAL solid rear triangle.   If you have a decent bender you could cold-bend, otherwise use your torch and carefully heat bend the tubing.

I'm looking forward to seeing that shell made to take a 31.8mm DT.

jn

"Thursday"

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[Daniel Jackson]

Seems like "Thursday's" recommendation may be the best. Currently available prebent ROR stays that will fit in the 22.2 round sockets max out at 410mm length. Am I right in thinking that, even with additional length afforded by a dropout, such stays would not sufficient length for a frame sporting 700x44 with 62mm fenders?

I'm thinking that for a frame with such a tire size and requisite clearances, a chainstay length of >430 is probably needed, yes? Anyone have experience here to guide selection?

Thanks,

Daniel 

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 11:11:58 AM UTC-5, Thursday wrote:

Dan, you could bend your own from 7/8" chrome moly.  For most riders .028 thickness would be fine.  For real animals/CX .035" would give you a REAL solid rear triangle.   If you have a decent bender you could cold-bend, otherwise use your torch and carefully heat bend the tubing.

I'm looking forward to seeing that shell made to take a 31.8mm DT.

jn

"Thursday"

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 7:43 AM, Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com> wrote:

Looking for chainstay recommendations for use with the new Compass Cycles bottom bracket shell for wide tire road frames. Something with a bend that starts 22.2 round.

This will be for a frame with clearances for 700c x 44 tires with 62 mm fenders.

Thanks!

Daniel in Northern VT

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[David Saul]

Chainstay length measurement is to the center of the bottom bracket, which adds roughly 19mm.  That 19mm added to your 410mm stay gives you 429mm and the dropout will add some additional length.  

[Wissahickon Cyclery]

Minus the miter.  19mm is the center to the deepest part of a miter.  It will still take about 3 or 4mm of material to get a full miter even on a round 22.2 tube.  Running 7/8" is not a problem unless you have a way to attach a 22.2mm stay to the drop out.  This is usually not easy if you are using classic style drop outs.  Not enough tab there to deal with the tall and wide stay.  This is why bullets were used and why doming was done.  

I have a pile of 22.2 stays that taper about 100mm from the drop out end.  The taper is only to 15mm not the classic 12.5mm and they are super long so you can bend them and shape them without it ending up short.  I am willing to sell them.  They are butted before swagging so they are ultimately triple butted.  .85mm/.7mm and 1.2mm at the drop out.

-Drew

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Drew Guldalian

D.B.A. Engin Cycles
Wissahickon Cyclery
7837 Germantown Ave Phila,PA 19118
www.wiss-cycles.com
www.engincycles.com

[Alex Wetmore]

This is what CAD, big sheets of paper, or Martin Manning's Excel spreadsheet are for.  Draw it out, including the crankarms and the chainstay bend that you need.

The length of the actual tube that you need will depend a lot on which dropouts you are using.  Don't forget that you also get ~20mm of length just from the BB shell itself since the measurement is C-C between the BB spindle and dropout.  The actual tubing for a 44cm effective length will be quite a bit shorter than 44cm.

I'd also suggest considering 650B instead of 700C, there are more good tire options in 650B than 700C for that style of bike.

alex

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From: frameb...@googlegroups.com <frameb...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 11:45:37 AM
To: Framebuilders
Subject: Re: [Frame] AllRoad Chainstay recommendation

 

[Mark Bulgier]

The BB shell adds almost 2 cm, so you'll easily get a 43 cm c-c distance from 41 cm stays.

I recommend drawing the plan view of the chainstays, tire and chainrings to figure out where best to put the bend, and where and how deep any needed ovalization and/or indents need to go.

Draw it full-scale so you can lay your stays right on the paper to see the clearances.

These are some of the most important questions in designing a frame yet many builders just wing it. Yes you can get away with it and it might even turn out awesome without a drawing, but if you're like me, knowing that it's optimized before beginning to cut metal is worth it.

Mark Bulgier
Sent from my phone.

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From: Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 11:45 AM

To: Framebuilders
Subject: Re: [Frame] AllRoad Chainstay recommendation

[satanas]

And if you're thinking of using something like the Llewellyn cast socketed dropouts, bear in mind the angle on these in plan view is *not* easily adjustable. They're designed for straight chainstays, so if yours are effectively "bent" in any way between the two ends these dropouts may not work without attempting to modify something. :-(

Later,
Stephen

[Jon Norstog]

that's why you put two bends in the stays ... the mid-section should be parallel at the desired clearance, then the aft section is bent to mat at the axle.  I typically use 6-7 degrees for that second bend; the first bend is calculated (drawn, actually) to provide tire clearance and then meet the bottom bracket shell in the right spot.  This bend might be as little as 10-12 degrees or as much as 25 or more, depending on the application.

jn

"Thursday"

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[Stephen Poole]

Unfortunately, Columbus don't do it that way, and the Llewellyn tips are set up for their stay end diameters. The non-straight Columbus chainstays have either a single bend or double bends, and the two bends are different. Their CX bend stays were problematic for me, with the bends needing modification (or other dropouts). The road & MTB double bend stays have different angles, but are likely to cause similar problems. It may be that things work out better with the new Compass BB shells, but I haven't seen a number anywhere for the chainstay socket angles.

^ The above is probably a good reason to use straight 22.2 tubing and bend it to suit, however I don't have access to a bender and hoped things might work as is...

Later,

Stephen

[Hahn Rossman]

The new compass bb shell sockets are about 10 degrees. This works if you bend your chainstays and probably dent for chainring clearance for extra low Q people. 

To reinforce what Alex already said:

You really need a drawing of where all the components are. It's really tight in there and unless you dent mightily on both sides of the tube you won't get what you want. I got tired of denting stays and made some super fancy bending dies that both bend and ovalize the tube where it passes between the chainrings and the tire. These are for the type of 26 and 650b bikes I build and every new design is different. For that matter I had to redo the dies when true temper stopped, because there kaisei tubes are just enough different. 

Hahn Rossman

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[John Clay]

Have any of you done any blacksmithing (hot bending) of the chainstay sockets to get the necessary angle for single bend chainstays that would be suitable for, say, 60mm fenders?

I figured I'd be able to make the necessary clearance with a die grinder, as I did for my Babyshoe Pass Tire frame (50mm fenders), but I'm not sure there's enough metal around the CS socket / bottom bracket shell. I'll double check that but: I'm thinking about threading steel BB cups into the shell, fixing it in the vise, heating the outboard portion of the CS socket (keeping away from the BB threaded area) and then using my bending bars to ease the sockets such that they will provide the necessary included angle. The trick, it seems to me, would be to avoid screwing up the threaded part of the BB shell.

Any of you guys done this hot? I've done it cold before but not to this degree.

Thanks,

John Clay

[MNF]

John, what length chainstays are you trying to use in your design ?

mike in SF

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[T]

so, does a wider bottom bracket have some aspect you do not want??
   Thomas Seaman:  noMadic

[John Clay]

Mike: Finished CS length between 430 and 440mm

Thomas: I'm working from my supplies on-hand

John

[Alex Wetmore]

Wider bottom bracket shell makes it hard to get low Q-factor (tread).  If you draw it out I think you'll see that having the chainstays come in at an angle is pretty important to fit a 60mm fender and 140mm cranks in there.

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From: frameb...@googlegroups.com <frameb...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of T <Tho...@kokoPedli.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2018 8:14:23 PM
To: John Clay
Cc: Framebuilders

Subject: Re: [Frame] AllRoad Chainstay recommendation

 

so, does a wider bottom bracket have some aspect you do not want??
   Thomas Seaman:  noMadic

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[John Clay]

I was able to get a 136mm chainline on my last bike which had BSP and 50mm fenders. Minimal CS denting was required of the pleasant bend which didn't seem to difficult to do at the time (I know now that it can be hit or miss). I also like my stock of BB shells and square taper drivetrains. I'm trying to do the same with this RTP based frame.

As to the value of my time relative to purchasing a wider BB: If I valued my time in terms of $ I wouldn't be building bikes for fun!

John

[MNF]

Have you thought about using longer chainstays ? 

430-440 mm seem ridiculously short for the kind of bike you seem to want to build, considering your hang-ups about 136mm q-factor.

Why not consider a more rational 465-475 chainstay length ?  You are basically building a duffer's recreation / touring bike around balloon tyres. 

With all due respect, do you really think an extra inch on the chainstays is gonna make one shit of a difference in "performance" ?

 If anything, the longer chainstays add a little more of the extra flex that so many "knowledgeable" Bike Qwarterly  fetishists get all lathered-up about.

And what exactly would be the problem with moving the driveside crankarm out about a 1/4" to 142 mm q-factor ? Would the bike really become un-rideable ? Seriously ? 

I would have thought the extra length was "too long" until I got a 1970 Singer with 470 mm cs. The extra length was just not a problem WRT cornering or climbing hills. 

The length also helped move the weight balance further forward instead of being biased so far to the rear wheel. There were no downsides, only improvements.

I have a feeling if you draw it out you wouldn't have nearly as many thorny issues as you keep grappling with on the current plan. 

Finally, if you are worried about finding chainstays that long, Tommy Kellogg at Spectrum Cycles had Reynolds draw extra-long 22.2 mm round chainstays that he sells on their website.

And I think Andy at Strawberry Cycles / Torch and File also has round-oval-round ones that are also long enough for what you might need.

Before you build, if you put in the long inside dents like the French (and Italian) bikes used to come with, the chainstays can pretty easily be made to bow gracefully about 3-5 degrees. 

A nice dent on the driveside chainstay just outside of the socket can help with getting a small chainring to snuggle up nice and close.   

Good Luck !

Mike Fabian 

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[John Clay]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: John Clay <nice.c...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Frame] Re: AllRoad Chainstay recommendation
To: MNF <eme...@gmail.com>

I like the 440 mm chainstays, the 136Q and everything else about the last bike I built (650b x 42). That's the logic.

The current project is a carbon copy in RTP. Aside from moving the down lug for increased fender clearance I didn't alter the frame fixture.

More photos here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums/72157674615273680/page3

And here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21624415@N04/albums/72157671170583438

Thanks,John

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John

--

John

[David Parsons]

On Monday, October 1, 2018 at 2:24:43 PM UTC-7, pop's wrote:

Have you thought about using longer chainstays ? 

430-440 mm seem ridiculously short for the kind of bike you seem to want to build, considering your hang-ups about 136mm q-factor.  Why not consider a more rational 465-475 chainstay length ?  You are basically building a duffer's recreation / touring bike around balloon tyres. 

You make it sound like short chainstays + wide tires are some sort of complex puzzle, but they really aren't.  My most recent finished frame is a gravel(r)(c)(tm) bike with clearance for ~650x52b tires, and it's got 420mm chainstays and a 172.5mm sugino ox601d crankset w/ ~8mm clearance on each side to the chainstays.   And I used a set of off-the-shelf Columbus S-bend chainstays to get those clearances (and really the only complexity was because I used a lugged BB and had to adjust the CS lugs to go out at an angle that would fit a 135mm rear hub.) 

-david parsons

[T]

Nothing wrong with wanting what you want   =)        AND...    times 10 on that response about building for fun   ;-}

noMadic Thomas

[John Clay]

Results of the prototyping: 63mm in/in distance across the stays at the fender's widest location. 440mm chainstay length. The geometry of the photo makes it appear that a 30t small ring on a 136mm crank tread (Stronglight 99) won't fit. In reality it looks very close. I think a small dent might be required but I'm not certain.

Rat Trap Pass tire (559x50 actual).

I'm very glad I did this.

 

John Clay

Tallahassee, Florida

USA

[Andrew R Stewart]

John- One aspect I have wondered about is if you’ve considered trimming the fender end to better fit between the stays. We do tis often on production bike with tight stay/tire clearances. Sometimes we use a strip of reinforcing AL from the fender/BB bridge and up the fender past the scalloped end. I have seen a few fenders otherwise crack at the BB end if they weren’t well attached or supported. Andy

 

Andrew R Stewart
Rochester, New York
USA

USA --