Cargo bike pics

[Cliff McLeroy]

Here are some pics of the cargo bike project, or really more of an experiment.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cliffsbikes/54917050169/in/dateposted-public/
Initially I wanted something to put my senior Chihuahua in to ride around the neighborhood. He like riding in kayaks and canoes but as he's gotten older he's not as much of a risk taker. I took him for one ride around the neighborhood. He did fine, but didn't seem to enjoy it as much as I'd hoped. Here's Theo as the figurehead:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cliffsbikes/53371018534/in/dateposted-public/ 

But it does make a good grocery getter. Just some comments on the design:
*It probably should have disks, but I wanted to use these 24" rim brake wheels I have. I racked my brain for brake configurations and settled on V-brakes on the back. A big challenge was cable routing, especially with the "low-stack" fork I had made to keep the load as low as possible. I may consider replacing the fork with one for a 20" disk wheel, with the cable/hose going through the steerer.
*Fully loaded does have a low speed wobble. I tested it with two 10 pound weights toward the front and a 7.5 in the back. With this much weight biased toward the front it has a wobble around 5-10 mph. It actually goes away at higher speeds. I built the fork with sliding drops for adjustable rake. I could not find a rake that reduced the wobble. With less weight there's hardly any wobble at all.
*The step-thru design has pros and cons. I figured it would ease mounting with load, and it does, but without a toptube there's little between your legs to hold it upright when you're stopped and need to take your hands off the bar. I think a conventional top tube design may have helped resolve the wobble. 
*I did the seattube offset in effort to cover other riders like my wife. She hasn't tested it yet but the idea is that when we lower the saddle forward, it also moves it closer to the bars. 
Otherwise it does quite well. It's very easy to ride loaded or unloaded. I did do a really stout kickstand/centerstand mount. That's my next purchase for it.
Cliff Mcleroy
Watkinsville, Ga.

[Mark Bulgier]

If you don't have much invested in the paint, you could add a toptube now.  Try it, and melt it back out if you don't like it!

Since you don't have a rear rack with stuff piled high on it, mounting/dismounting by throwing your leg over the back is still an option.  Which can be made easier with a dropper post.  My cargo bike isn't made yet (other projects keep rising to the top of the list) but I did purchase the dropper for it, the kind where the lever is under the saddle facing forward, so no remote, no cabling issues, braze-ons or hole in the frame.  It probably will look like I'm scratching my balls when I activate it, but I'm OK with that. ;)

I also curved the toptube for mine, for more standover clearance. Or another way of saying it, joints higher on the HT and ST for the same standover, get me?  I bought a cheesy Harbor Freight tube roller used on CL, and it made a very aesthetically-pleasing curve in a plain gauge Cr-Mo tube, pics on request.  Easy to do, so I'd be happy to curve a TT for you if you like.  I think the rollers I have jump from 1" to 1.5", so I made mine inch.  I'd prefer bigger, and rollers in other sizes are available from SWAG Offroad, but $$, not in the budget.  A 1" curved TT might not add as much rigidity as you wanted, but I predict it will still be a noticeable improvement.  Or just throw a straight 1-1/4" TT in there for a massive improvement.

Of course I don't know how bad your wobble is, but I think it would bug me even if it didn't affect steering precision or safety. I'm remembering back when my grocery-getter was a '70s Schwinn with a giant Wald basket, no rack, just the wimpy struts Wald gives you.  The sway in the cargo made it hard to do quick steering maneuvers precisely, like dodging a rock in the road.  Different mode of flex than on your bike for sure, so probably not comparable.  I just remember how it bugged me, being a bike builder, that I had to put up with a suboptimal bike. I eventually put a skookum front rack under it, an embarrassing amount of time later.

[Reed McFarland]

Hello Cliff,

I also built a cargo bike to carry my dog in. I went with the Long John-style cargo bike and followed Phil Vandelay’s example in his YouTube “how-to” video. I also bought plans he has for sale on Etsy for guidance on cutting the angles on the box tubing and setting up the steering linkage. 

Here are two photo albums showing my build process. I did not use an old 26” MTB frame as Phil suggests, but rather a Marin Larkspur that takes 650b wheels. The Marin frame was free since I work at a bike shop in the summer and this frame came to the shop damaged. Marin advised us to destroy the frame, so it was cut in half and I used the back half for this project. 

https://imgur.com/gallery/cargo-bike-build-part-1-TpLHQ7g

https://imgur.com/gallery/cargo-bike-build-part-2-l7KiWxs

There’s excruciating detail under most pictures and videos in the albums. 

I also had speed wobble issues with my bike. The speed wobble issue didn’t rear its ugly head until a year after riding it. I tightened up all of my steering linkages thinking something loosened up, but after tightening it, the speed wobbles got worse!

If you have a standard 1-⅛” headset, Cane Creek makes the Hellbender Visco 70 headset which is just the top cup, bearing, and bearing race. I installed it on the headtube for the front wheel on my cargo bike and it solved my speed wobble issue immediately. There’s plates with super viscous grease in the headset to dramatically dampen the steering and prevent speed wobbles. It definitely makes the cargo bike safer with my dog. My dog, Maple, is 30lbs and she LOVES the cargo bike, so the price tag on the headset upper was worth it for her safety.

Here’s an album showing Maple in the cargo bike: https://imgur.com/gallery/cargo-bike-adventures-with-maple-t6KwHQQ

Reed McFarland

On Nov 11, 2025, at 10:19 AM, Cliff McLeroy <karl...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Here are some pics of the cargo bike project, or really more of an experiment.

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[tho...@kokopedli.com]

I had not yet seen the "Cane Creek Hellbender Visco 70 headset"
F.W.I.W.,  it's interesting to note from the website about them:  https://www.canecreek.com/pages/how-to-install-a-hellbender-70-visco-headset

"Upper headset assemblies are not compatible with smooth finish steel steerer tubes. To function properly there needs to be adequate friction between the headset and steerer tube."

Thanks for sharing the story here Cliff, I would think of replacing the downward sloping existing top-tube, with an upperward sloping top-tube that would attach to the head-tube instead of the downtube, I imagine that would reduce the wobbles a lot and still give you lots of stand-over...   sadly eliminating the water-bottle.

noMadic  Thomas

[John]

I've used three of my cargo bikes to carry dogs around. A cycle truck (good for small dogs like our friends dog ATM, and our big dog Fernet when she was a puppy), a large cargo bike (basically now only use it twice a year for bike camping trips, where I'm carrying Fernet and a cooler and all my camping stuff, thankfully it's only a 30 miles trip), and a purpose-built cargo bike just for carrying Fernet to the woods, the dog park, and the bike collective. I feel like I've shared photos here before, but I did a search and maybe I haven't, plus these dogs are cute so what's the harm in sharing twice: https://photos.app.goo.gl/2bzQfrjk5H9uaz258

I built a long john ages ago but didn't like the lack of rigidity, so have settled on this style for low-platform cargo bikes. Might build an omnium clone soon for fun, but I don't think I'd use it to carry Fernet around.

One upcoming little winter project is a rack to go on the back of Fernet's bike with a dummy axle mount so I can trail my mountain bike behind it. Carry Fernet and MTB (a modified old On-One Inbred, lol) to the trails, ride around and tire out the dog, ride back home.

rosy, in Providence

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[Reed McFarland]

I think that warning is for steerers with a clear coat over them. I have a “smooth” steel steerer tube on the fork of my cargo bike but have had no issues. It’s also not clear coated. I called our inside rep at Cane Creek to ask about stack height and explained to the tech my intended use and he essentially said they made that headset for setups like mine (I’m a bike mechanic in a shop during the summer). I even sent pictures after installing and they didn’t mention anything about the steerer’s smoothness. I got mine in early August so I don’t think they’ve changed the specs on it.

Reed McFarland

[Jamie Swan]

I built a cargo bike following those same plans.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/48950170@N03/albums/72177720299357544/

Mine also suffered from speed wobble, so I installed a Viscoset, and that cured the problem. I actually had a couple of them kicking around because I had previously experimented with using them on low trail bikes to damp out the low speed, no hands shimmy. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/48950170@N03/albums/72157699445613405/

That flickr album doesn't show the finished bike, so I've attached a couple of pics as well as one of frame builders Simon Firth and Tom LaMarche doing a pizza run for a frame builders' gathering at my shop a couple years ago.

Jamie Swan

Northport, NY USA

http://www.JamieSwan.net

http://www.Webb.edu

http://www.LongIslandRendezvous.org

flickr

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[jim g]

On Tue, Nov 11, 2025 at 1:23 PM Jamie Swan <jamie...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mine also suffered from speed wobble, so I installed a Viscoset, and that cured the problem. I actually had a couple of them kicking around because I had previously experimented with using them on low trail bikes to damp out the low speed, no hands shimmy. 

Jamie, did the Viscoset headset improve shimmy on your low-trail bikes?

 

Thanks!

-Jim G

[Jamie Swan]

Hi Jim,

Yes, the Viscoset headset did successfully damp out the shimmy on my low trail bike, but I ultimately decided that a roller bearing headset is a better solution. I made 1" cups for Johnny Coast and Peter Weigle, and they both came to the same conclusion. At that time Cane Creek was considering making a 1" version, but they decided against it.

You can adjust the amount of drag that the Viscoset provides by changing the order in which you stack the clutch discs, and also by the amount of the special damping grease that you apply to the discs. In the stock configuration the headsets provide too much resistance to turning. I had to set it up so the drag was at the minimum before I was able to ride the bike with no hands, or walk the bike along by only holding the saddle. With the headset set up like it did kill the shimmy but I wasn't able to ride with no hands on very cold days. That was annoying, so I gave up and went back to a roller bearing headset. 

When I installed the Viscoset on the cargo bike I set it up for maximum damping and it worked great. That's the application that they were designed for.

Jamie Swan

Northport, NY USA

http://www.JamieSwan.net

http://www.Webb.edu

http://www.LongIslandRendezvous.org

flickr

[Jamie Swan]

BTW, this is the Phil Vandelay video that is referenced in the previous posts. I think that he did a great job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDlnDEXlfm8

Jamie Swan

[Cliff McLeroy]

Mark,

Thanks for the feedback. I think the instigator of the wobble is that I can't get the Kenda tire on the front to seat such that it runs true. It's a common problem I've had with low-mid shelf tires, and the CR18 rims tend to be a little loose bead fit. With a lighter load, it's barely noticeable, but with over 20 lbs, seem to start a wobble at low speed. I did a 700c bike with this step-thru design, using the same 1.75 x 0.035 down tube and found it to be quite stiff out of the saddle, but perhaps a little less stiff with the "jiggle the handlebars" twisting test. With this bike I did increase the little top tube, and the seat tube sizes. I do have it set up for a rear rack if I need to boost the capacity, but mostly it will just be the box up front. In hindsight I think the traditional top tube would have been better for straddling support when stopped, and cable routing. I'm a little concerned however, that more twisting stiffness more raise the resonant frequency, and simply move the speed at which it occurs. I definitely need to work on getting the front tire to run true. It is a rattle can paint job, so a traditional top tube retrofit would not be too difficult. Thanks for the feedback on the HF tube roller. I've considered getting one of those. If they included a 1.125 or 1.25 roller set it would be perfect. 

-Cliff

[Cliff McLeroy]

Reed,

Thanks for the reply. Very nice build and a great writeup on it. I thought about the long john design, but I just felt like the size would not be practical for bike racks etc. and also the limited storage room I have for my herd of bikes. What's the main tube size? I almost looks like 2.5 - 3". That's strange that your wobble didn't show up initially. I think my testing was definitely worse case since I used barbell plates as the load. In reality most loads like a dog, camping gear or groceries will have some dampening built in. Great tip on the visco headset. I'll keep that in mind. So far the wobble hasn't been a problem in normal use, but if I start carrying more weight and it shows back up, I think that might be the thing to try first. Maple definitely seems to like it. It reminds me of Theo on the kayak. He would go out to the very tip and lean out, which sometimes resulted in a dunk. I certainly don't want him falling out onto the pavement. I'm going to cut a piece of carpet to put in there and take him on some more rides.

-Cliff

[Cliff McLeroy]

Thomas, 

Yes, this was a learning experience and the reason I didn't spend money on fancy tubing and paint. I may see if I can rig up a clamp-in top tube to see how it effects the wobble. I didn't really think about cable routing with the big box, but it would have been cleaner if I had a top tube to route it along.

-Cliff

[Cliff McLeroy]

John,

Thanks for sharing the pics and feedback. I really like that compact long john at the beginning of the pics. Fernet just does fit! On the white bike with the front frame mounted rack, did you have any wobbles? It looks like a more rigid design than mine, and it's probably better with the 20" vs 24" wheel.
-Cliff

[Cliff McLeroy]

Thanks for sharing Jamie. Very nice and it looks quite stout. I really like the center stand. It definitely seems like wobble is tough to avoid and that the visco set is the way to go. I wonder if there is anything made for bikes in the style of motorcycle dampers that external. I imagine that might be too much.

-Cliff

[Jamie Swan]

I don't see why a piston style damper wouldn't work, as long as it is tuned properly.

I wonder if there is an ideal, shimmy free, front end geometry for the long john style cargo bikes; or if the shimmy is just a shortcoming of the design. Or maybe the frames on these DIY versions are too flexible. Does anybody know if the long john bikes (like the Bullitt) that are made from large diameter aluminum tubes are wiggly?

Jamie Swan

Northport, NY USA

http://www.JamieSwan.net

http://www.Webb.edu

http://www.LongIslandRendezvous.org

flickr

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[Reed McFarland]

Hello Jamie,

I do know that it is common for long Jon style bikes to have the shimmy. It’s a long narrow bike with the weight at the back so at least mine has a natural “noodliness.” Other people who have made the Phil Vandelay cargo bikes have also had this ll m

Reed McFarland

On Nov 13, 2025, at 8:14 AM, Jamie Swan <jamie...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Reed McFarland]

(Apologies. My phone sent the message before I was done typing)

Hello Jamie,

I do know that it is common for long Jon style bikes to have the shimmy. It’s a long narrow bike with the weight at the back so at least mine has a natural “noodliness.” Other people who have made the Phil Vandelay cargo bikes have also had this “noodle” feeling to the bike. 

If you look at that cane creek headset I mentioned, their site says it was developed specifically for long bikes like cargo bikes, tandems, recumbents, e-bikes, and loaded touring bikes. The only bike they really don’t recommend it for is aggressive mountain biking. 

Reed McFarland

On Nov 13, 2025, at 8:14 AM, Jamie Swan <jamie...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Cliff McLeroy]

Jamie, 

It seems like for the long johns and anything else with a steering linkage, a piston type linear damper would be an easy fit on the connecting pushrod. Of course if the viscoset works, why bother? I'm not sure about geometry for the long johns, but I made my fork ends with horizontal slots to allow the offset to go from about 46 to 58, and with a 71 HT angle a trail from 45 to 57 mm. I tested it from end to end, and found no offset setting that had any effect on my low speed wobble. It would be good however, to test a steeper HT angle. Maybe that reducing the offset for similar trails could be better.
-Cliff

[david levy]

We use a motorcycle damper on our cargobikes, it's easy to incorporate and very adjustable so one can tune it to the rider preference and they are cheap to buy.

Dave

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[Jamie Swan]

The slotted dropouts seem like a good experiment. Interesting that there was no position that killed the shimmy.

It seems like many (most?) builders are finding it necessary to use a damper of some sort.

I wonder what would happen if we mimicked the high trail geometry of stayer bikes, with the rake going backwards.

Jamie Swan

Northport, NY USA

http://www.JamieSwan.net

http://www.Webb.edu

http://www.LongIslandRendezvous.org

flickr

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[Cliff McLeroy]

That's exactly what I was thinking, except that it looks like you have something a bit more involved in the linkage(s).

Thanks -Cliff

[Cliff McLeroy]

Yea, I'm inclined to think that reducing the trail to nearly zero might reduce or eliminate it. Then again motorcycles are much heavier and most of them are wobble free without a damper and I think their trail figures are much higher. 

[David P]

smaller wheel diameter- faster rpm can't help

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[Alistair Spence]

Jamie,

The Harry Vs Larry Bullitt comes equipped with a motorcycle/piston style damper as standard and it is adjustable via a dial at one end of the cylinder body. It works well and has a large range of damping from almost nothing to making it hard for the handlebar to be turned with any real rapidity. 

I've ridden a couple of Bullitt's where the damper is getting worn out and the shimmy that occurs can be quite violent under the right circumstances, which suggests to me that a properly functioning damper is doing a fair amount of work during everyday riding but I don't think that this a consequence of bad design.

The Bullitt is a very refined and clever design (imo). I've got almost 30,000 miles on one and I really enjoy riding it. I think that they can only make the front end so rigid before it becomes excessively heavy. With the wheelbase being so long it's inevitable that the cargo platform that the head tube is attached to is going to allow some "nod" as it twists due to torsional loading. My guess would be that this is one of the main culprits for the cause of shimmy on these bikes.

The two spars that make up the cargo platform are pretty beefy (33mm wide, 88mm deep, I don't know what the wall thickness is) and they seem appropriately chosen for the job. When I'm carrying a 150lb load I can feel them give a little over rough roads but the platform is pretty stout in general. They could have made those spars stiffer/heavier but I think this wouldn't be an efficient use of material if you were trying to stabilize the head tube in an attempt to eradicate shimmy. The cargo platform is flat and non triangulated so it's always going to be relatively easy to twist, even if in bending it's quite stiff.

From a framebuilding perspective there are a few things I would change about the Bullitt but all in all I think it's a refined and well thought out design. Not only does it ride like a bike, even when heavily laden, it handles well and once you get used to it you can really let it rip and still feel perfectly safe and in control, even in busy urban environments where the margin for error is not large.

I've spent a lot of time with these bikes, both riding and wrenching so I could go on, but that's my 2 cents for now.

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA

P.S. It goes without saying but I'll say it anyway, the version of the Vandelay cargo bike that you built is pretty awesome. Nice work there.

[Jamie Swan]

Thanks for chiming in, Alistair. Have you ever considered a career in education? ; ). What you're saying supports my thought that cargo bike shimmy is probably something that designers have decided to live with. It's similar to low trail rando bikes where we're accepting the shimmy as a design compromise. In both cases a damper solves the problem. Naysayers might call those a band aid, but they seem like reasonable trade offs.

For those of you who don't know; Alistair, besiding being an amature frame builder and machinist, is a degreed engineer. His day job is maintaining a fleet of cargo bikes, so he has considerable first hand experience. Check out this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7KCzMMxPRg

Jamie Swan

Northport, NY USA

http://www.JamieSwan.net

http://www.Webb.edu

http://www.LongIslandRendezvous.org

flickr

[simon firth]

The new Bullitt has a beefed up front end, 1.25 x 1.5" steerer & no damper as standard, not sure that's all they did but i dont get any shimmy, blasted down Midvale {steep hill here in Philly, where engin Drew used to live} last night @ 30mph, rock solid with a smallish load on the front

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[Jamie Swan]

Thanks Simon,

Very cool. Kinda blows my theory that dampers are a necessary design compromise. Leave it to Bullitt to get things dialed.

You should sign off with your website:

https://www.transportcycle.com

Jamie Swan

Northport, NY USA

http://www.JamieSwan.net

http://www.Webb.edu

http://www.LongIslandRendezvous.org

flickr

[Alistair Spence]

Simon,

This is very interesting. As far as I know the Bullitt switched over to a tapered steerer around 2015? The small fleet that I work on was purchased around 2018 and they are of the newer type that you describe (running ZS44/28.6 ZS56/40 headsets). My understanding (I wasn't involved at the time) was that the framesets arrived with dampers as standard so it's interesting to know that the damper is optional, unless maybe there has been another iteration of the frame since then that makes it optional and that's what you have? You've been working in this space for much longer than me so of course I defer to your knowledge on this.

Here's a shot of the front end of one of our bikes, https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/53667129921 

Is that the same as the one you're running with no damper? I'm guessing it is, but maybe you can confirm?

Not that I've seen a ton of Bullitt's in the wild but the ones that I have seen around here have all had the damper installed so I just assumed (incorrectly I now know) that they were part of the package. Good to know that they are not.

I've followed many bicycle related shimmy threads over the years so I know it's a complicated subject and that there are a lot of variables involved. Our use case might be a little unusual in that we run our bikes with custom made weatherproof/lockable aluminum cargo boxes. The boxes weigh 40lbs, and we (try to) limit cargo to 150lbs on top of that, not because the frame can't carry more, but this seems to be the upper limit of the nyon planet gears in the hub motors that we run (hub motors Vs mid drives, that's a whole 'NOTHER discussion...). 

Anyway, GVW for us can be up around 300lbs. We run Schwalbe Pickup 20" x 2.15" tires at 35psi on the front, so it's a heavy weight at a fairly low pressure. Gives a nice ride but maybe that combination makes shimmy more likely? I don't know for sure but I think it's probably something to consider.

Cheers,

Alistair

--

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

[Alistair Spence]

Hi Jamie,

I agree with you, I don't see the damper as a band aid either. I think any shimmy is more of an emergent property of the system, the result of choosing a front end geometry, and other characteristics of the frame, that make the Bullitt very good at doing what it was designed for. Yes, it's a cargo bike and very good at carrying things but it's also actually a fun bike to ride and I don't think that happened by accident. It's a very refined design.

From what I understand the Long John style of cargo bike has been around in Denmark since the mid 20's. I remember reading or seeing an interview with Hans "Harry" Fogh, one of the founders of Larry Vs Harry, where he said that when he worked as a carpenter he used a Long John style bike of Danish manufacture from the 60's or 70's to carry his tools to and from job sites. Maybe that was a bit of poetic license for marketing purposes but even if not strictly accurate the point is that this design has been a well proven workhorse over many decades.

As a frame designer/builder, bicycle racer, and bike mechanic yourself Jamie you well know that identifying the causes of shimmy is not always easy, even on a standard bicycle. The Bullitt, with its tie rod style steering linkage, second headtube, and the spherical bearing/Heim joint that connects the tie rod to the fork has a lot going on and there's a lot of places for small amounts of play to develop and (potentially) cause problems.

It could be that the damper just keeps the handling quieted down when wear has taken place at some place/s in the linkage and things are no longer optimally adjusted i.e. with a damper the rider doesn't need to constantly check all the potential places where play might be developing. Simon mentioned that his Bullitt doesn't run a damper, and it doesn't shimmy, so that might lend some weight to this hypothesis? That, and probably the fact that he keeps his bikes in a better state of adjustment than most people do (including me... :-).

Alistair

P.S. Sorry to Cliff for getting so off topic on this thread, and props to him on his bike build. It's always interesting to see the solutions that framebuilders come up with in order to address a particular need or issue. Nice work Cliff.

[Cliff McLeroy]

Alistair,

These comments are very helpful to me and while these bikes are quite a bit more involved with mine, I think the principles still hold. I've always liked these type of bikes and saw quite a few in Denmark a couple of years ago. I've enjoyed the discussion and also the video about the mail bikes. 

Thanks, Cliff

[Cliff McLeroy]

I can imagine that a substantial increase in stiffness in the steerer with these diameters (assuming it's steel) could go a long way in reducing or eliminating shimmy.