Re: [Frame] Oxy/Propane (aka LPG) brazing tips

[Doug Fattic]

Rob,

I've found that I like my propane tips to be about 2 sizes bigger than when I'm using oxyacetylene.  For example I typically use a Victor #1 tip when brazing lugs with acetylene and a Victor TEN-3 tip with propane.  The TEN-3 tip needs to be screwed onto a UN-J mixer elbow.  I might put on a #4 except my torches usually have a #2 or #3 attached for my framebuilding class students so I'll less inclined to make the change when a #3 works fine.  Keep in mind that a UN-J mixer (designed to be used with propane with a smaller J-28 "aircraft" style torch handle) has bigger and more numerous holes connecting to the torch handle than a mixer designed to be used with acetylene.  In addition the TEN tips (also designed to be used with propane) are different than their TE cousins in that the orifice is countersunk to better keep the flame attached to the tip.

For comparison, the orifice diameter of a Victor #1 tip is 0.04" (1.016mm) and a #3 is almost 0.06" (1.511mm).  This comes from a chart Mark Stonich had on his Bikesmith Design and Fabrication website.  It doesn't seem to be there anymore.  He was hit by a car and badly hurt while riding his bicycle a few weeks ago.  We all wish him a speedy recovery.      

Of course skilled brazers can up the tip size to get in and out quickly to reduce the HAZ.  It is not advisable for rookies to use too big a flame as their slower reaction times can get them in trouble really fast.  

Doug Fattic

Niles, Michigan

     

From: Robert Tedge <rjt...@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, October 20, 2013 10:31 PM
To: <frameb...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Frame] Oxy/Propane (aka LPG) brazing tips

Hi all, 

Does anyone have any experience in using a Victor or CIG Comet 3 style torch with Oxy/Propane (LPG) for lug brazing? I've got everything except for Propane tips and would love to suggestions for what size I should be using for this work. For lug brazing would I be correct in thinking a bigger size tip will be fine (and possibly assist in even heating)? I was thinking of a size 8 as a start? 

Cheers

Rob

[omar-...@cox.net]

Hello Rob--

I use a Victor torch with a #4 tip for everything.  My tip is quite old, so I am sure it is larger than a new #4, from all of the cleaning out over the years.  I can do everything from fork crowns to small braze ons with this set up.  I only use Oxy/Propane with a Gasfluxer.

Omar Khiel

Oasis Custom Cycles LLC.

From: Robert Tedge

Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 7:31 PM

To: frameb...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Frame] Oxy/Propane (aka LPG) brazing tips

Hi all, 

Does anyone have any experience in using a Victor or CIG Comet 3 style torch with Oxy/Propane (LPG) for lug brazing? I've got everything except for Propane tips and would love to suggestions for what size I should be using for this work. For lug brazing would I be correct in thinking a bigger size tip will be fine (and possibly assist in even heating)? I was thinking of a size 8 as a start? 

Cheers

Rob

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[Alex Wetmore]

I am not an expert in lug brazing, but I find that a #4 (occasionally a #5 if a fork crown is very beefy) works well for me.

I used to use Oxy/Propane, these days I use Oxy/Chemtane which burns a little hotter and with a little more heat concentration.  It is somewhere between Acetylene and Propane in how it behaves, but uses all of the propane equipment.

alex

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From: frameb...@googlegroups.com <frameb...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of omar-...@cox.net <omar-...@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 6:51 AM
To: Robert Tedge; frameb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Frame] Oxy/Propane (aka LPG) brazing tips

 

[Robert Tedge]

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies. I have noticed since my original question that CIG Comet I have and the Victor torch are not as similar as I thought (CIG is owned by Victor Technologies). My torch uses these tips http://www.cigweld.com.au/product/oxylp-gas-welding-tips/comet-welding-tip-oxylpg-554-size-8-2/ and they have no information on the drill size etc. The size 8 is as small as the oxy/propane version comes. There is more infromation here http://apac.thermadyne.com/IM-Uploads/DocLib_4715_Cigweld%20Professional%20GEQ%20consumables%204.pdf.

Does anyone have any ideas for this type of torch and tips? 

Cheers

Rob

[Andrew R Stewart]

Robert- Have you tried to gage the tip orifices? I used numerical drill bits to measure mine. I am frustrated when people talk about tip number and not diameter. Not all brands use the same numbering system. I've tried to attach the tip size chart that has been discussed lately. Andy.

 

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Andrew R Stewart
Rochester, NY

[Robert Tedge]

Andy, that is a very useful chart and idea. I'll measure the orifice and see what I come up with!

Cheers

Rob

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:21:34 AM UTC+11, Doug Fattic wrote:

[Robert Tedge]

I also received a response that did not show up in the group and through I would respond here to help any others that are looking for the info. Supposedly, CIG use a numbering system that relates to the opening size. A Size 6 Tip is a .6mm opening and it increases by one tenth of a mm with each number you increase in tip size.

Thanks all! 

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:21:34 AM UTC+11, Doug Fattic wrote:

[Ryan Christbaum]

Additional tips size information for Smith torches can be found here: http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/spec_sheets/Cutting_Welding_Brazing_HeatingTip_FlowPressure_Data.pdf

I have traditional and screw-on tips for my AW1A and found this very helpful to sort things out in comparison to the brands other guys reference.  Maybe I'm getting old, but I'm having a heck of a time seeing much of a difference between the acet and LP screw tips as far as any recessed design.  If I am seeing it, it's next to nothing.

-Ryan

[Doug Fattic]

Ryan and all,

It is nice to get another online resource that describes tips sizes.  Thanks.  Just to be clear, only Victor (and Victor clones) makes propane tips that have the recess on their end that helps keep a flame attached (or at least there are the only ones I know about).  The Smith tips do not.  The only propane specific mixer/elbow available for the Smith AW1A torch handle is the AT-61 (in the past they made a AW400 series for propane just like the AW200 series is for acetylene).  This unit has an open threaded end that requires a treaded tip that comes in various orifice sizes.  These are the 6 NE50 tips designed for propane or natural gas (NE151 to NE156) that screw onto the end of an AT-61.  The problem is that they have a larger diameter orifice than what most beginners can comfortably use.  The smallest one (the NE151) with an orifice size of .070" which equals a #50 drill size is the largest I like to use.  It is roughly the size of a Victor TEN-4.  Fortunately the 6 LT110 tips designated for acetylene (LT101 through LT106) seem identical to the NE line of tips except they have smaller orifice sizes that work fine with propane too.  

The 4 Smith tips that fit their AT-61 mixer/elbow that I would tend to use would be the LT104 (the smallest), LT105, LT106 and the NE151 (the biggest).  Of course my preference is for the Victor TEN 2 through 4 tips (combined with J-28 torch handle and UN-J mixer/elbow) because they do have the recessed tip that helps keep a flame attached.  It isn't a big deal but there is a small difference.  Of course not everyone likes the Victor J-28 handle as well as the Smith AW1A however.  It is a matter of preference.        

Somewhat confusingly all Smith tips for the AT60 and AT61 are marked by drill size.  For example the NE153 is marked 44 – which has an orifice that corresponds to the diameter of a #44 drill bit.  That diameter is .086".  The reason this can be confusing is that as a drill size gets bigger in diameter, the drill size number decreases.  For example the NE154 screw-on tip is marked 36 but has a larger .106" orifice.  By intuition one would think that a #44 has a bigger orifice than a #36 but of course it does not.  

Repeating, for many brazing operations when I am using propane, I don't like to use tips with orifices as big as the NE50 series have.  The NE151 (marked 50) which is the same diameter as a #50 drill bit at .070" is about as big as I would want to go.  Now some pro builders like to use huge tips and flames and do so just fine but my advice isn't aimed at them but rather for the learner just starting out.  The reason they shouldn't use such a big flame is that their reaction times are slower so they are likely to get into trouble much faster.  

Doug Fattic

Niles, Michigan