AGA X11 - advice on tips etc. needed.

[Nauris]

Hello guys.

 

I've been in here for some years now, finally am getting my stuff together and buying O/A kit.

As I understood, the weapon of choice in Europe is AGA X11, so I'm going for this.

Although there is a company in Latvia selling Harris (But it's a Lithuanian company, and latvians don't trust lithuanians).

 

But I need advice on tips and pressure regulators. Also that equal pressure thing - mixer.

Which tips and pressure regulators should I get?

Also, do I need to get mixer for equal pressure?

 

I have added pictures for convienence.

 

Thanks,

Nauris

[Truls Erik Johnsen]

Hi Nauris,

I think it's mostly me and fellow Dag Riise who have discussed this on the list. The AGA (GCE) X11 is a nice torch, but somewhat bigger than the Victor J28 or Smith AW1A that the Americans often use. It's an injector style torch. What this means is that it uses high pressure oxygen and lower pressure acetylene, and then "draws" out the acetylene into the mixer via an injector principle.

The experience from Dag and I suggest that the gas velocity of injector torches are higher than that on an equal pressure torch. Thus you get a more intense flame. This is of course excellent for welding, but somewhat temperamental to braze with. If you want to use the X11 as an equal pressure torch you need to buy at least one mixer (charts and part #'s here: http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=96528156@N00&q=x11) and a tip or two. 50 l/h (e.pressure) and 80l/h (injector) are good starting points in regards to tips.

The challenge is most often this:

1. X11 most often comes as a kit with tips. Fine. It can be used as is. A wee bit tricky, but it can be dealt with. If you want to use it as an equal pressure system you will have to buy the mixer and tips separately. Not tremendously expensive, but prepare for at least 50 euro.

2. If you run injector, then you can buy standard regulators. If running equal pressure the standard regulators struggle, since the oxy regulator is delivering fairly high pressure. Getting the oxy regulator to deliver a stable flow at between 0,15 and 0,3 bar is a challenge, so then you need to source special regulators (if you dive into deep on this).

3. Using lightweight US made hoses (kevlar or lightweight rubber) with the X11 is somewhat of a challenge, since it uses European threads. This means that you will need adaptors. Rapidwelding in the UK have a good selection, and should in most cases be able to help you out.

I now have three X11 torches, and I've invested quite a bit of time on this, so I won't change over night. But if I where to start again? I think I would have started out with Victor J28 or a Smith AW1A. Then get a set of suiting regulators from rapidwelding to allow you to run euro-gas bottles with a set of US hoses and torch. I think perhaps rapidwelding also supplies Victor or Harris, but that needs confirmation.

Ok?

Truls 

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[Truls Erik Johnsen]

Both Dag and I have written on the experiences going from injector to equal pressure earlier here: http://search.bikelist.org/beta/ViewMessage.aspx?id=42651

Truls

[Nauris]

Damn, I thought i got that close to sorted.

Back to the start then.

[Truls Erik Johnsen]

Give rapidwelding a call. T

On Feb 15, 2013 1:46 PM, "Nauris" <nauris....@gmail.com> wrote:

Damn, I thought i got that close to sorted.

Back to the start then.

--

[Nauris]

Will do that.

Thanks for all the info, appreciated.

 

Nauris

[jon norstog]

Nauris,

Get big regulators. A big regulator will be more accurate, generally
speaking, than a small one. As for torches, get a small one and a
bunch of tips. I use the small Victor with tips ranging from #3 to
#00. Others prefer the Smith, or the tiny Meco Midget with a tip
extension. A torch is small enough you can order internationally and
it will ship my mail, cheaply.

Good luck!


jn

"Thursday"

> --
> -

[Truls Erik Johnsen]

Jon is right, but keep in mind that US equipment uses different threads. Both torches, regulators and bottles.

T

[Nauris]

Yeah, I think I will go with the Victor J28 torch.
Just have to understand for myself how this will work out with the threads and what else I need.

And what do you mean saying "big" regulators? Big in dimensions?

But right now I need some sleep, just arrived home from Oslo.

[M-gineering]

On 2/15/2013 9:20 PM, Nauris wrote:
> Yeah, I think I will go with the Victor J28 torch.
> Just have to understand for myself how this will work out with the
> threads and what else I need.
>
> And what do you mean saying "big" regulators? Big in dimensions?
>

the larger the diameter of the diaphragm the more sensitive the pressure
regulation

--
Marten Gerritsen
Kiel Windeweer
Netherlands

[Steven Shand]

Slight thread hijack but is anyone in Europe or North America using
bottles with built in regulators?

My supplier here in the UK are switching most people across to their
'Integra' bottles with built in regs.

Smaller bottle sizes but with more contents (higher cylinder pressure)
and a nice quick release hose fitting, also have a built in contents
gauge.

We've been using them for a couple of months and they're working out
pretty good.

http://www.airproducts.co.uk/news/newproducts_integra.htm

Steven

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[Jona Aal]

Steven,

I know that albee have got rent free cylinders for OA and shield gas

http://www.albeegascylinders.com/

I haven't had a good look yet, but our local indy gas company is starting to do these to supplement their own rental customers.

Jona

Jona Aal

H 01434 345 620
M 07940 731 375

[Dag]

Just so that you get it right Nauris,

Having tried most of the mentioned torches i agree with all that Truls Erik says about the x11. Get yourself a J28, with a Smiths kevlar hose.(Rapid can get you one, or both the j28 and kevlar hoses are available on E-bay)  Both these are threaded with what s called A towards torch. (3/8 L and right UNF(?))  and B towards the regulators. (9/16 L and R unf.)  These are american standards. Then you need the adaptors between the US and Europe, to go onto a European regulator. These are available here: http://www.rapidwelding.com/dynamic/Category.aspx?c=GASHOSEFITTINGS&o=0&zl=2&sq=6&sor=3&cd=1&st=21&en=31&so=3

(there is a lot of different bottle threads available in europe, but the threads out of the regulator are std BSP, semingly for all. europe.  (and if you want to get confused about bottle threads have a look at this Norwegian site: )  http://www.gassarmatur.no/norsk/produkter/reservedeler/Overganger/national.htm

Try to get a set of regulator with as low output range as possible, especialy important with the Oxy, as these usually are high due to injector usage. 

Good luck!

Dag

 

[Nauris]

Hi all,

so I have finally ordered the J28 and tips.

Went through info from local welding shops, and I think I made a mistake not ordering FBA's  also (They tend to be a bit more expensive here, and I might no get the right thread for oxy) , but I'll see that when I walk into shop with J28, and the guys go like - you fool, we could have set you up! Although, I was in a shop before ordering, and the guy I was speaking to only knew about setting oxy at 2-3 Bar, so my question of equal pressure stopped him dead in his tracks.

There still are things I cant really understand:

The J28 has check vales built in right? So I only need to figure out the FBA's?

http://victortechnologies.com/victor/products/detailProduct.html?prodID=0382-0127

Do I need to get a mixer for J28? (Was reading this http://www.murexwelding.co.uk/murex/gb/en/support/upload/A5-Safe-use-of-Oxy-Fuel.pdf and understood, I don't understand a lot).

The oxy regulator question - so what I should be looking at is, the ability of it to handle pressure as low as 0.15 Bar? 

What about acytelen?

Happy New Year to all,

Nauris

[Alistair Spence]

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:59 AM, Nauris <nauris....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

There still are things I cant really understand:

The J28 has check vales built in right? So I only need to figure out the FBA's?

http://victortechnologies.com/victor/products/detailProduct.html?prodID=0382-0127

Check valves are not built into the J28. You'll need the ones that are "A" threaded,

https://www.tinmantech.com/html/welding_safety.php#check

 

Do I need to get a mixer for J28? (Was reading this http://www.murexwelding.co.uk/murex/gb/en/support/upload/A5-Safe-use-of-Oxy-Fuel.pdf and understood, I don't understand a lot).

The mixer on the J28 is built into the tip ie. each tip has it's own mixer, whether it's the regular individually sized tips, or the universal threaded tip tube that uses the thread on tips.

The oxy regulator question - so what I should be looking at is, the ability of it to handle pressure as low as 0.15 Bar? 

What about acytelen?

It is is nice for a regulator to have low pressure resolution for the purpose of brazing bicycle frames since you'll be dialing in 5 -10 psi on the 02 gauge (typically). Seems like a lot of reg's are geared towards flame cutting, so they'll be calibrated to read 0-150 psi, or 0-200 psi. In those cases trying to dial in 6psi is tricky, as the needle barely lifts off the stop.

I had an 02 regualtor re-calibrated to read 0-30psi so it makes dialing in a low pressure more convenient. It's not an essential feature imo, but the improved resolution at lower pressures is nice to have.

I know that Victor offers their reg's in a variety of output pressure ranges. They're lettered A, B, C etc and each letter specifies a different pressure range. Off the top of my head A = 2 - 15 psi, B = 2 - 40 psi, C = 4 - 80 psi. Presumably other manuf's offer this option too. I find that an B or a C works well for brazing bike frames.

Hope this helps,

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

[Alex Wetmore]

From: Alistair Spence <alspe...@gmail.com>

> Check valves are not built into the J28. You'll need the ones that are "A" threaded,

If you buy a brand new J28 it will come with check valves in the box.  At least the one that I bought a few years ago did.  It doesn't have flashback arresters however.

As Alistair said there are two ways that you can get tips for the J28.  You can buy tips that have mixers built in, or you can buy the universal mixer with thread on tips.  I think that mixer is called something like UN-F-J?  I prefer using the thread on tips, they are quicker to change than the mixer itself and are cheaper as well.

I like the J28 a lot, but don't have much to compare it to (the only other torch that I've owned is a Victor 100).  It's a great little torch, especially when combined with the Smith kevlar hoses.

 

> I had an 02 regualtor re-calibrated to read 0-30psi so it makes dialing in a 

> low pressure more convenient. It's not an essential feature imo, but the 

> improved resolution at lower pressures is nice to have.

I've always been a little curious about this.

It seems nice to have this resolution, but I haven't found it to be too essential.  I just turn my O2 until I see the needle move a bit and call it good.  I think my O2 regulator is 0-150 PSI.  

The needle valve is ultimately what controls the pressure going out of the tip, the regulator is just stepping down the pressure to something the needle valve can control.  If I set my O2 to 6psi one day and 8psi the next day doesn't it just mean that I will open up the needle valve on the torch a little more for the same flame on the first day then on the second?

I've always been curious about this, I think I take less care over gas pressures than most builders (at least based on reading the threads).

alex

[Alistair Spence]

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:16 AM, Alex Wetmore <al...@phred.org> wrote:

If you buy a brand new J28 it will come with check valves in the box.  At least the one that I bought a few years ago did.  It doesn't have flashback arresters however.

Ah, did not know that Alex. Both of mine were purchased used. Good to know.

 

I think that mixer is called something like UN-F-J?  I prefer using the thread on tips, they are quicker to change than the mixer itself and are cheaper as well.

It's a UN-J and I agree, the thread on tips make a lot of sense.

 

It seems nice to have this resolution, but I haven't found it to be too essential.  I just turn my O2 until I see the needle move a bit and call it good.  I think my O2 regulator is 0-150 PSI.  

The needle valve is ultimately what controls the pressure going out of the tip, the regulator is just stepping down the pressure to something the needle valve can control.  If I set my O2 to 6psi one day and 8psi the next day doesn't it just mean that I will open up the needle valve on the torch a little more for the same flame on the first day then on the second?

I've always been curious about this, I think I take less care over gas pressures than most builders (at least based on reading the threads).

Yes, I think it's one of those "seem good on paper" things that in practice doesn't make a ton of difference. 

I can dial in exactly 6psi on my O2 regualtor. On my backup regulator that reads 

0-200 psi I can't be that accurate, so maybe I'm dialing in around 10 psi. It's harder to tell exactly but it doesn't really matter a whole lot because as you say, you can fine tune it with the torch body valves.

The higher pressure will make the torch body valve adjustment more sensitive but when you're talking about a few psi I think it's unlikely that most operators would be able to tell the difference, which would be minuscule I think.

Alistair.

[Nauris]

Thanks guys, I ordered the tips with J28, so that and check valves shoud be ok.

So if the regulator thing isn't that important, I might be ok with getting whatever I get here with the highest precision.

But Rapidwelding.co.uk ain't that rapid, they got back to me for the second time, now saying they will have the torch and 2 of 3 tips I ordered on 12/02. 

Not cool.

[Alistair Spence]

That delay doesn't seem that unusual, going by my experience of online welding supply companies here in the US, Rapidwelding is probably having the items drop shipped to you from Victor. 

The company I've used to order this kind of stuff, 

https://weldingsupply.securesites.net/cgi-bin/browsecatalogs.pl?UNDEF::

does it that way too. Delivery  times can be on the long side, but the prices are pretty good, compared to quotes I've gotten from my LWS.

Regarding the regulator, if you haven't gotten it yet then I'd say there's no reason not to look for one with a lower pressure output. If you already had one that was calibrated to output 0-150, or 0-200psi then of course it would work just fine. If you're still looking though, then why not get one more in the 0-40, 0-60psi range so that you can set it more easily to an output suitable for the kind of brazing you'll be doing.

Alistair.